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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2020 1:18:33 GMT
So the conversation has kind of dove tailed in this direction (as of this writing) in the stealth thread and while I do not mind natural evolution of conversation...I do not think there has been a thread like this and well again I am kind of curious about what the community wants or thinks on this issue.
Traditional Classes- Already what we get in Dragon Age to this point. Warrior, Rogue, Mages. Full Classless- No Classes at all, everything is available to all players, or theoretically available to find eventually for all players. Hybrid Classless- Still have classes but eliminate or reduce them. Passive Classes- The idea being that all your active skills are available to all players but each class (whatever they are) has access to different passive or active buffs...maybe even a unique uber skill. Occupation/Organization based- The most esoteric on this list and the one which casts the widest net, but the basic idea is either A. this will determine what your starting skills will be as well as some background information and from there it will be a 'classless' system. Or B. to replace the class system for DA and replace it with this. In other words a Grey Warden will have different skill tree then an Antivan Crow and a Tevinter Magister could have a different skill try then an Elven Keeper. Specializations- For this purpose not specializations as in how they have worked in DA past but more along the lines of everyone starts off with the ability to all have the same basic skills/ abilities, but then later on as you explore and role play you can then choose a specilization which can make you *more* of a rogue or *more* of a warrior. Classless with hard limits: The idea being that you can do whatever you want but there is some limit on what you can do, like a level limit, which would still encourage you to be strategic.
Since these aren't mutually exclusive you can vote for up to two of them.
As for me: I do favor strongly the 'hybrid classless' model. Sadly the lore probably does not permit them to go full on Classless easily. So in other words I want them to combine the Warrior and Rogue Class while leading mages alone.
I am sympathetic to the idea that a class can aid in Role play.
However I feel the benefits far outweigh the losses, especially with how it goes for DA.
1. Namely the complaint that 'Rogues can't use swords' or 'Warriors can't use bows', if these two were the same class you could mix and match what you bring out into the field (especially since I feel it would almost be mandatory to have all characters have access to both range and non range options) 2. With the length of games these days it almost encourages less and less repeat playthroughs, I will leave that as a value neutral statement but consider if this is the case more people may want to be able to do more mixing and matching and experimentation during their playthroughs...they should be allowed to do so. 3. More fun and more mixing and matching...If you want to be a traditional rogue you can or if you want to be a rogue who can take a pounding...you can do that to.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2020 1:27:09 GMT
I think as regards the player character, they should either stick with the classes as they stand, or just go completely classless (which could be justified in narrative by the Veil coming down and magic returning to Thedas).
For companions, I think they should either stick to traditional classes OR give each party member their own completely unique skill trees and abilities based on what makes sense for their background.
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Post by Frost on Sept 19, 2020 1:49:00 GMT
I voted for traditional classes. I like class reactivity. Unless the Veil comes down, I don't see how they could make it completely classless. I play most games only once, and I like traditional classes, so I am not sure number of playthroughs is related to someone liking games to be classless.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2020 1:51:16 GMT
I voted for traditional classes. I like class reactivity. Unless the Veil comes down, I don't see how they could make it completely classless. I play most games only once, and I like traditional classes, so I am not sure number of playthroughs is related to someone liking games to be classless. Just in the vein of having the option available. I mean I already have a pretty good idea of what I want to do if I play the game once (or twice) but I can see more people wanting to experiment and mix and match their options if they only want to do one playthrough. I mean, if you start as a rogue and find out you don't like it the current system is really difficult to where you would have to go back to the beginning to try playing a warrior for instance.
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Post by biggydx on Sept 19, 2020 2:28:57 GMT
I think you can have classes with passives benefits and attributes gains that are specific to said class. Maybe even give each class starting abilities tied to their particular class (ex. Warriors get Shield Bash and Grappling Hook). However, once that's been predefined, you should be able to pick abilities based on your own choosing. Ideally, you'd have subclasses (Ex. Sword/Shield, Spellsword, Paladin, etc) included as well so you can better define what starting abilities/stats you begin with.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 19, 2020 2:34:04 GMT
I do like classless for solo RPGs (like Skyrim, etc.), but for party-based games like Dragon Age I still prefer having classes. Replayability also plays a role.
That said, I really like the idea of hybrid classes that open up interesting playstyles right from the get-go (or at least early on), and DA has experimented with them in DAIMP (Silent Sister, Arcane Warrior, etc.).
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Post by luketrevelyan on Sept 19, 2020 3:25:41 GMT
I like classes. It is part of my character's identity and I would definitely miss it if gone. Personally I'd like even more classes. Also I did not enjoy classless in MEA.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2020 4:06:32 GMT
I like classes. It is part of my character's identity and I would definitely miss it if gone. Personally I'd like even more classes. Also I did not enjoy classless in MEA. Now that's an interesting idea, what were you thinking?
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 19, 2020 4:29:38 GMT
I can see the appeal of a classless system on paper, but it’s harder to execute well, I think. And it’s not a studio by studio problem, it’s a math problem.
In a classless ability tree, each new ability creates new permutations with all the previous abilities, exploding the number of possible builds. It means devs are testing way more ability pairs to make sure they don’t cause bugs with each other. Which means the total number of abilities gets cut down, or the abilities are much more boring (more stat bumps/bonuses instead of new actions), or both.
For the same amount of dev effort in a classed system, I can get more abilities — and more substantial ones — because the number of permutations is dramatically lower. Each ability is only allowed to interact with 1/3 of the other abilities.
I think a lot of players who are imagining a classless system are expecting it to have the same quality of abilities as a classed system. But the reality is, dev time being equal, the classless game would have substantially worse (more boring OR more buggy) abilities.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2020 5:00:28 GMT
I can see the appeal of a classless system on paper, but it’s harder to execute well, I think. And it’s not a studio by studio problem, it’s a math problem. In a classless ability tree, each new ability creates new permutations with all the previous abilities, exploding the number of possible builds. It means devs are testing way more ability pairs to make sure they don’t cause bugs with each other. Which means the total number of abilities gets cut down, or the abilities are much more boring (more stat bumps/bonuses instead of new actions), or both. For the same amount of dev effort in a classed system, I can get more abilities — and more substantial ones — because the number of permutations is dramatically lower. Each ability is only allowed to interact with 1/3 of the other abilities. I think a lot of players who are imagining a classless system are expecting it to have the same quality of abilities as a classed system. But the reality is, dev time being equal, the classless game would have substantially worse (more boring OR more buggy) abilities. In a hypothetical class-less system, I would also cut down on the overall number of skill trees and skills.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2020 6:07:27 GMT
I can see the appeal of a classless system on paper, but it’s harder to execute well, I think. And it’s not a studio by studio problem, it’s a math problem. In a classless ability tree, each new ability creates new permutations with all the previous abilities, exploding the number of possible builds. It means devs are testing way more ability pairs to make sure they don’t cause bugs with each other. Which means the total number of abilities gets cut down, or the abilities are much more boring (more stat bumps/bonuses instead of new actions), or both. For the same amount of dev effort in a classed system, I can get more abilities — and more substantial ones — because the number of permutations is dramatically lower. Each ability is only allowed to interact with 1/3 of the other abilities. I think a lot of players who are imagining a classless system are expecting it to have the same quality of abilities as a classed system. But the reality is, dev time being equal, the classless game would have substantially worse (more boring OR more buggy) abilities. I'd take a lot less abilities honestly. Might be harder to justify with a mage but then my system does have those as separate.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2020 6:33:31 GMT
I can see the appeal of a classless system on paper, but it’s harder to execute well, I think. And it’s not a studio by studio problem, it’s a math problem. In a classless ability tree, each new ability creates new permutations with all the previous abilities, exploding the number of possible builds. It means devs are testing way more ability pairs to make sure they don’t cause bugs with each other. Which means the total number of abilities gets cut down, or the abilities are much more boring (more stat bumps/bonuses instead of new actions), or both. For the same amount of dev effort in a classed system, I can get more abilities — and more substantial ones — because the number of permutations is dramatically lower. Each ability is only allowed to interact with 1/3 of the other abilities. I think a lot of players who are imagining a classless system are expecting it to have the same quality of abilities as a classed system. But the reality is, dev time being equal, the classless game would have substantially worse (more boring OR more buggy) abilities. I'd take a lot less abilities honestly. Might be harder to justify with a mage but then my system does have those as separate. I don't think it's hard to justify with mages. For instance, I don't think there's any good reason for Fire, Ice and Lightning magic to all have separate skill trees. Especially when stuff like "rune" spells all perform identical functions except for the element in question. I would propose a single "elemental" tree, with maybe four basic spell-forms, for e.g, "Bolt", "Rune", "Wall" and "Blast/Storm", and then allow the player to toggle back and forth between "equippable" elements, to change the element and effect of the spell being cast. That function, at least on consoles, could be performed by the D-pad, lord knows it's not pulling its weight. From there, you have a streamlined "Healing/Creation" tree where healing, defence, haste spells and etc reside, and whatever the one for Debuffs/Crowd Control is called (Entropy?). And then you get into specialisations.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 19, 2020 12:27:16 GMT
More classes and being able to do hybrid classes. I don't like how some specializations only open like midway through the game, and it really restricts roleplaying. Why can't one be a necromancer at the start of the game, or a templar? You are erasing so much background from a character when you restrict classes this much... warrior/rogue/mage is just not enough. I'd say open all the current specializations as starting classes, or let people choose a base class and one/two specializations/another base class from the start, and give more opportunities to cross over to other classes (but not infinitely, like 3-5 max?) as you level up.
Also, rogue should be split into rogue and archer/ranger, the two are not the same. Similarly warrior should be split into a two-hander and a shield/1hander classes.
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Post by Rascoth on Sept 19, 2020 12:47:49 GMT
As MEA proved to me, I'm not entirely sold on classless system. I like to have certain frame to fit in and world - potentially - reacting to it. So traditional classes for me.
I'd also love to see some hybrid classes or specializations. There were some specializations in the past which toyed with the idea, as well as DAIMP characters testing the waters. Would love to see this idea exlored further.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Sept 19, 2020 14:21:06 GMT
I like classes. It is part of my character's identity and I would definitely miss it if gone. Personally I'd like even more classes. Also I did not enjoy classless in MEA. Now that's an interesting idea, what were you thinking? I always like playing as a ranger with an animal companion in games that offer it. DAO had that as a Rogue specialization so even bringing that back would be cool. Also the shapeshifter specialization for mages was interesting. Maybe rather than more classes they just need more varied and distinct specializations and to offer them earlier in the game. DAI felt kind of late plus the quests to unlock them were obnoxious. Actually the idea of a quest to unlock is kind of neat in theory but maybe make it story based rather than fetch quests involving spending power to open an area just to collect X amount of some resource.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 19, 2020 14:22:16 GMT
I'd prefer to keep classes roughly along the lines they were, but allowing more overlap between warriors and rogues. For DAO, it is completely valid to make a dual-wield rogue in heavy armour.
There was an interesting discussion going on last year, and I thought that one could essentially almost remove the classes, but giving characters a certain number of "learn points" per level. These could be invested in anything, with one restriction: Magic is a yes-no character trait. Those who don't have it active cannot learn any magical abilities and get, say, a number of general learning points. People with magic active can learn magical and general abilities, but they are getting some general learning points to be invested in either magic or "general" as well as some magic learning points which can only be invested into magic. So while a muggle has say 40 general learn points available, a mage would get like 20
general and 20 "magic only" points. I'd take a lot less abilities honestly. Might be harder to justify with a mage but then my system does have those as separate. I don't think it's hard to justify with mages. For instance, I don't think there's any good reason for Fire, Ice and Lightning magic to all have separate skill trees. Especially when stuff like "rune" spells all perform identical functions except for the element in question. I would propose a single "elemental" tree, with maybe four basic spell-forms, for e.g, "Bolt", "Rune", "Wall" and "Blast/Storm", and then allow the player to toggle back and forth between "equippable" elements, to change the element and effect of the spell being cast. That function, at least on consoles, could be performed by the D-pad, lord knows it's not pulling its weight. I mused about this as well, though mostly with regards to staves. DAI's approach with "no weapon switch during combat" and only three elements hits here, so a spell that allows me to switch form fire to *something else* once a rage demon pops up is sensible.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2020 14:51:22 GMT
I'd prefer to keep classes roughly along the lines they were, but allowing more overlap between warriors and rogues. For DAO, it is completely valid to make a dual-wield rogue in heavy armour.
There was an interesting discussion going on last year, and I thought that one could essentially almost remove the classes, but giving characters a certain number of "learn points" per level. These could be invested in anything, with one restriction: Magic is a yes-no character trait. Those who don't have it active cannot learn any magical abilities and get, say, a number of general learning points. People with magic active can learn magical and general abilities, but they are getting some general learning points to be invested in either magic or "general" as well as some magic learning points which can only be invested into magic. So while a muggle has say 40 general learn points available, a mage would get like 20
general and 20 "magic only" points. I don't think it's hard to justify with mages. For instance, I don't think there's any good reason for Fire, Ice and Lightning magic to all have separate skill trees. Especially when stuff like "rune" spells all perform identical functions except for the element in question. I would propose a single "elemental" tree, with maybe four basic spell-forms, for e.g, "Bolt", "Rune", "Wall" and "Blast/Storm", and then allow the player to toggle back and forth between "equippable" elements, to change the element and effect of the spell being cast. That function, at least on consoles, could be performed by the D-pad, lord knows it's not pulling its weight. I mused about this as well, though mostly with regards to staves. DAI's approach with "no weapon switch during combat" and only three elements hits here, so a spell that allows me to switch form fire to *something else* once a rage demon pops up is sensible. Yes, I'm thinking more of the way Iron Man and his abilities work in the new Avengers game (he's the closest thing the game has to a "Wizard"-type combat role): essentially he can swap between three weapon types on the fly during combat, and whichever one you have switched on at the moment alters the nature of the attacks and combos. IE, if he has his repulsors on, holding down the button charges up a blast that he fires ahead of him, if you switch to lasers, holding down that same button will make him spin in a circle, dealing damage in a wide radius. Dragon Age mages would be much simpler. Swap between Fire/Ice/Lightning with a simple press of an arrow button, and then cast, say, the "Wall" spell from your hotkeys, to generate a wall of Fire, Ice or Electricity, depending on the element you selected. You wouldn't need to do a lot of varied animations and character movements the way that Avengers has done for Iron Man.
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Post by Liadan on Sept 19, 2020 15:26:57 GMT
I didn't like the classless system in MEA, for me having different classes adds replayability. I would prefer the traditional classes but with more varied and unique specializations.
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Post by phoray on Sept 19, 2020 15:35:09 GMT
I'm attached to classes for narrative reasons. So I picked Traditional and Organizations based, even if the latter is slightly silly. Not all Crows are Rogues, but it would be neat if only Crows/Assassin could make poison, Dwarves/Arcanists could make runes/enchantments, and only a Cleric/Dalish could make healing potions themselves
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 19, 2020 16:22:05 GMT
I vote in favor of traditional classes - and by that, I mean DAO traditional, where warriors had access to archery and dual-wield. That system worked just fine. All it ever needed was a bit of tweaking and refinement. I would propose a single "elemental" tree, with maybe four basic spell-forms, for e.g, "Bolt", "Rune", "Wall" and "Blast/Storm", and then allow the player to toggle back and forth between "equippable" elements, to change the element and effect of the spell being cast. That function, at least on consoles, could be performed by the D-pad, lord knows it's not pulling its weight. That sounds overly complicated to me. Also, rogue should be split into rogue and archer/ranger, the two are not the same. Similarly warrior should be split into a two-hander and a shield/1hander classes. I'd prefer to not be limited to a specific weapon type. I'd like each class to have both melee and ranged options, a swappable secondary weapon set (ala DAO) and be able to change out either weapon set with something carried in inventory during combat.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 19, 2020 17:43:34 GMT
I am sympathetic to the idea that a class can aid in Role play. However I feel the benefits far outweigh the losses, especially with how it goes for DA. I disagree. Non-issues in DAO, that problem was introduced by BioWare's desire to further differentiate the classes in DA2. The fix is to return to DAO's foundation that allowed warriors archery and dual-wield, and also allowed rogues to wield heavier one-handed weapons. That enhanced mixing and matching could be mostly accomplished by returning to DAO's system. The Arcane Warrior spec even allowed mages to wear heavy armors and wield melee weapons. Again, I'd refer you to DAO. DAO offered clothing (mostly mage robes) plus 4 armor weights - light, medium, heavy, and massive (and tiers of all but clothing). The only thing that limited what armor your character could equip is number of points invested in the strength attribute, which was player controlled (also, restrictions on a few unique items). Arcane Warriors (mage spec) w/ the Combat Magic skill could substitute the magic attribute for strength for armor qualification. Heavier armor use was offset by increasing fatigue penalties (the rate at which mana/stam regen). OTOH, dexterity (DAO) or cunning (DA2) investments would increase characters' defense (sort of like THAC0, made them harder to hit). You could absolutely build a high-dex dual-wielding/bow-using warrior that uses light or medium armor and is just more difficult to hit. Want to change your warrior archer to a tank midway through the game? Use a respec potion and re-allocate the points (although since high dex also increases defense, you might not need to). I would also note that DAO offered a number of base class abilities not associated with any specific weapon and DA2 expanded them. Examples: Dirty Fighting, Stealth, Miasmic Flask, Vendetta - these talents were not dependent on what type of weapon was equipped. That meant there were fewer points spent in weapon-specific skills which made it much easier to create a build equally effective with different weapons. (DA2 also removed the secondary/swap weapon set, but you could still swap them by opening inventory.)
Honestly, most of what you want to accomplish here could be done by returning to DAO's combat system mechanics - add some refinements, tweaks, improve the animations and offer a speed slider, maybe some specialization enhancements, and you'd be good to go.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2020 18:04:53 GMT
I would propose a single "elemental" tree, with maybe four basic spell-forms, for e.g, "Bolt", "Rune", "Wall" and "Blast/Storm", and then allow the player to toggle back and forth between "equippable" elements, to change the element and effect of the spell being cast. That function, at least on consoles, could be performed by the D-pad, lord knows it's not pulling its weight. That sounds overly complicated to me. Well, YMMV, of course, but I don't think it's that mechanically different from, at least on consoles, having to hold down a shoulder button to access the second set of shortcuts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 18:10:48 GMT
Going classless would be more of the same terrible direction that Bioware games have been going. There’s a market for traditional and complex RPGs. I’d much rather see them return to that with classes and combat instead of trying to be everything to everyone and delivering a watered down classless action game like Amdromeda again.
I want to see warrior, rogue, & mage, with companions each having a unique to them specialization and the PC selecting their specializations from plot related lore/factions.
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 19, 2020 18:14:12 GMT
Going with traditional classes, but wouldn't mind seeing some type of hybrid either
however, what I really want is to see unique specializations again, both for us as player and on our party members (as in DA2)
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2020 19:08:09 GMT
I am sympathetic to the idea that a class can aid in Role play. However I feel the benefits far outweigh the losses, especially with how it goes for DA. I disagree. Non-issues in DAO, that problem was introduced by BioWare's desire to further differentiate the classes in DA2. The fix is to return to DAO's foundation that allowed warriors archery and dual-wield, and also allowed rogues to wield heavier one-handed weapons. That enhanced mixing and matching could be mostly accomplished by returning to DAO's system. The Arcane Warrior spec even allowed mages to wear heavy armors and wield melee weapons. Again, I'd refer you to DAO. DAO offered clothing (mostly mage robes) plus 4 armor weights - light, medium, heavy, and massive (and tiers of all but clothing). The only thing that limited what armor your character could equip is number of points invested in the strength attribute, which was player controlled (also, restrictions on a few unique items). Arcane Warriors (mage spec) w/ the Combat Magic skill could substitute the magic attribute for strength for armor qualification. Heavier armor use was offset by increasing fatigue penalties (the rate at which mana/stam regen). OTOH, dexterity (DAO) or cunning (DA2) investments would increase characters' defense (sort of like THAC0, made them harder to hit). You could absolutely build a high-dex dual-wielding/bow-using warrior that uses light or medium armor and is just more difficult to hit. Want to change your warrior archer to a tank midway through the game? Use a respec potion and re-allocate the points (although since high dex also increases defense, you might not need to). I would also note that DAO offered a number of base class abilities not associated with any specific weapon and DA2 expanded them. Examples: Dirty Fighting, Stealth, Miasmic Flask, Vendetta - these talents were not dependent on what type of weapon was equipped. That meant there were fewer points spent in weapon-specific skills which made it much easier to create a build equally effective with different weapons. (DA2 also removed the secondary/swap weapon set, but you could still swap them by opening inventory.)
Honestly, most of what you want to accomplish here could be done by returning to DAO's combat system mechanics - add some refinements, tweaks, improve the animations and offer a speed slider, maybe some specialization enhancements, and you'd be good to go.
1. Granted we might be getting our terminology confused but the last thing I want is to return to Origins combat system. Seriously at this point I may dread that more then going always online. Still not a deal breaker but it might make me cry. 2. You miss the point considering I want abilities available to everyone (at least same ones for warriors and rogues) and not just armor. Yes, that would be important in a classless system too and yes there may be some trade offs (but then again you basically could also do that in Inquisition)...I mean I guess having armor without universal abilities is like having a pie with no filling. Edit: its embarrassing how long it's taken me to come up with a proper conclusion to this but returning to DAOs systems would not solve all my issues. At best it would only do the weapons thing but that's not really enough in context, being only 1 issue I had.
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