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Post by wickedcool on Oct 1, 2020 22:08:50 GMT
Just finished dai for the second time and I originally thought flemeth knew what solas was doing and willingly gave him her life essence
After the second time it appears he hugged the life out of her like a vampire and she died in shock
As a follow up it appears he had to get that close to defeat her and would have been defeated by her (possibly) if she cared
Also are we overestimating his power and in fact he’s only as powerful as flemeth (who was/could be defeated by the warden)and not as powerful if he had controlled the orb
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Post by phoray on Oct 1, 2020 22:12:52 GMT
I'm pretty sure she foresaw that Solas was coming to eat her. So the current fleshy body creature mythall was inhabiting* shoved most of mythall's soul through the Eluvian, and waited for her death. The soul will find Morrigan and she will house it. I mean, it's pretty clear that's probably where all that was going.
*never named, claimed to be Actual Flemeth but wasn't
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Post by Solas on Oct 2, 2020 1:04:56 GMT
She knew, that's why she passed the wisp away through the mirror before he did it. Mythal also needs him to succeed for her agenda - she can't get her vengeance on her murderers unless the other Evanuris are let out of 'jail', and he's presumably the only one who can undo what he originally wrought with the Veil.
There's a considerable increase in apparent power level between DAI and Trespasser in Solas.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 2, 2020 4:25:20 GMT
She knew, that's why she passed the wisp away through the mirror before he did it. Mythal also needs him to succeed for her agenda - she can't get her vengeance on her murderers unless the other Evanuris are let out of 'jail', and he's presumably the only one who can undo what he originally wrought with the Veil. There's a considerable increase in apparent power level between DAI and Trespasser in Solas. Great. Now I can't help but picture Solas getting a few sharp strands of golden hair.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 2, 2020 13:00:02 GMT
Also are we overestimating his power and in fact he’s only as powerful as flemeth (who was/could be defeated by the warden)and not as powerful if he had controlled the orb There's a considerable increase in apparent power level between DAI and Trespasser in Solas. How much of that is due to Mythal and how much to the fact that he has now had something like 5 years to power back up from his long slumber? I'm still puzzled why, if he knew Mythal was around, and him sniffing around Flemeth's hut before he joined the Inquisition seems to indicate he knew something, he didn't go to her for advice at least about what to do with his orb? Would Flemeth have made such a mistake as to give the orb to an intelligent darkspawn Magister? I don't think so. Which is why she seems to be chastising him for this. I also wonder why he did act so hastily over the orb? When you've been content to spend thousands of years sleeping, why not spend a few more years awake if that what it takes to use the orb safely? Also, if Mythal was vital to his plans against the returning Evanuris, why not wait until he found her? (This comment also applies to the idol) If she didn't figure in his plans at all, then why did he need her power at the end of DAI? So there must be some reason why he woke when he did and then felt compelled to act. Mythal definitely expected him to show up when he did. So she had definitely made preparations, including sending something of herself through the eluvian. What exactly did he absorb from her? If it was her consciousness then what happened afterwards? If Mythal was the weaker of the two then in merging Solas became the dominant partner or Mythal ceased to exist and may be he was simply party to her memories/knowledge. If is was just some aspect of her that gave him power, then what aspect was it? According to Dalish lore, ancient elven dreamers were always able to see over long distances, to direct spirits to fight for them or aid their allies and pass on messages to their agents through the Fade. According to Tevinter lore ancient dreamers could also kill their enemies as they slept. We know if Feynriel goes to Tevinter he is able to contact and control the minds of people back in Kirkwall and he was a young and inexperienced dreamer. So all these things Solas should be able to do too without the need for Mythal. The Dalish have maintained Fen'Harel was always powerful in the Fade, the more so having shut away any of those who could challenge his rule there. Solas also said that had Corypheus been destroyed by unlocking the orb, he would have taken possession of it and the anchor and was perfectly able to control the latter. He did this originally when it was killing the PC at Haven when he was at his weakest. So on the face of it the only additional power Solas gained on merging with Mythal was the ability to petrify people permanently. I think that is something we could come up with a device or spell to protect us from. I agree with the OP, perhaps we are over estimating his invincibility as a result of joining with Mythal. There are a lot of things he can call on as an ancient elven dreamer but he is not immortal and remember Mythal was able to be killed in such a way that she was reduced to a shadow of her former glory back when she was truly powerful. So just having Mythal on board isn't necessarily going to help prevent someone from killing Solas. You just need the requisite knowledge to do so.
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Post by Solas on Oct 2, 2020 14:06:12 GMT
I don't think he's invincible (that wouldn't work on a meta level anyway for there to be a story involving him), and I think some overstate how powerful he is. I just think there's been an increase in power between basegame and his Trespasser appearance. I don't think he joined with Mythal or has her on board either. Her power sure, but the essence of her godhood went away through the mirror.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 2, 2020 14:48:39 GMT
difficult to say. We have known since DA2 that Flemeth is able to separate portion of herself and then rise again at different times and places. and probably she also knows that Solas is a cunning deceiver who is not to be trusted. On the other hand, it seems strange to me that Solas has not noticed or suspected the eluvian trick. So yes, Flemeth may have sent something through the eluvian, but I am not convinced that it is her divine essence. Also because the wisp of Mythal she carried was already a fragment, what did she send, a fragment of the fragment? In how many parts is this fragment separable? And if she has indeed sent through the Eluvian her divine essence (so that it can find morrigan, I presume), what has solas absorbed? The powers of an old witch? Nothing so special, all things considered... Meh. Personally I would prefer that Flemeth's story is over, what little remained of Mythal absorbed by Solas and goodbye. the thing sent through the eluvian? Memories, information, instructions.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 2, 2020 17:45:18 GMT
Flemeth said that a small piece was all she needed - so maybe it works in the same way as Corypheus? Investing just a small part of her power into an object or being, like a seed, and all that seed needs is some sort of magical reaction. That reaction for Flemeth would be the ritual, while the reaction for Cory would be his death.
So I believe that it was a piece of Mythal that Flemeth sent through the mirror. If we look at the situation like Flemeth’s initial death, the soul Flemeth sent through the mirror would be the locket she gave to Hawke, and Solas absorbing and killing Flemeth would be the Warden killing Flemeth. So Solas absorbed Mythal in all her power, but that other piece is waiting for it’s fruition - I assume once the piece in Solas has vanquished. The other piece also probably holds all the information and knowledge she wants to withhold from Solas.
My main question is this: Is Solas going to keep Mythal’s soul inside him forever? Because I’m starting to think that Mythal was not only absorbed for her power, but also is integral for Solas ritual. The last time a mage with convictions absorbed a spirit of justice, he separated himself from the spirit by exploding a religious building and starting a war. Could Solas separating himself from Mythal cause such a cataclysm that it destroys the entire world, and thus, the veil?
I cannot see Solas keeping Mythal inside of him. Anders undoubtedly changed, and Flemeth herself essentially morphed into a full on essence of Mythal after all the years (I believe that’s why Solas already felt familiar and comfortable with Flemeth) It has already began altering his fade consciousness - and Solas is all about his own free will and independent mind. I assume that since he knows his ritual only takes a couple of years, he deems it as a safe enough option.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 2, 2020 17:55:19 GMT
Her power sure, but the essence of her godhood went away through the mirror. This is what always puzzles me. How do you split the essence from the power? Isn't the spirit of the person what gives them their power? Unless the Evanuris acquired additional power by merging with another spirit? So like Anders/Justice or Wynne/faith spirit, which theoretically should have given them more power than a normal person but is never really evident in game. Also we know that Flemeth seemed to have spread pieces of her around which could be revived in the event of being killed. This would seem to be the secret of effective immortality because you are never truly dead. In the case of the Evanuris I wonder if it was a case of splitting their soul with a dragon, like Corypheus, which ensured they couldn't be permanently killed but with Mythal may be they killed the dragon simultaneously with slaying her, which is why she ended up as a wisp in the Fade. So presumably whatever "god" power Mythal brought with her spirit was what Solas absorbed but Flemeth had already sent her own spirit through the eluvian. I wonder where the eluvian was linked to?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 2, 2020 18:10:15 GMT
The last time a mage with convictions absorbed a spirit of justice, he separated himself from the spirit by exploding a religious building and starting a war. Could Solas separating himself from Mythal cause such a cataclysm that it destroys the entire world, and thus, the veil? Anders never split himself from Justice. If anything reaching the fruition of his plan was what completed their merger, so they were finally one being. However, the lore related to Anders' relationship to Justice was very contradictory depending on which path you were on. On full rivalry it appeared as though Justice kept taking him over but that was something of a nonsense, given everything we had previously been told. Plus if Justice had truly transformed into a spirit of vengeance, why would Anders just sit down and let himself be killed? If Vengeance was controlling him, surely it would have sent him raging across the city after the Templars? So I doubt Solas separating himself form Mythal is going to do anything other than get them both killed. Whilst in theory Justice could have departed if Anders wanted him to leave, it likely would have killed Anders in the process because, as with Wynne, he had previously been killed and then Justice was what kept him alive. Also if he needs Mythal's power to fight the Evanuris then he is hardly going to split himself from her before removing the Veil. I cannot see Solas keeping Mythal inside of him. Anders undoubtedly changed, and Flemeth herself essentially morphed into a full on essence of Mythal after all the years I don't know if Solas can unilaterally get rid of Mythal or it has to be by mutual consent. Would Mythal be able to control Solas if he went against her wishes? It would be interesting to know. I would have thought Solas' willpower would be the greater since he is whole and Mythal only a fraction of what she once was. Since Solas refused to drink from the Well of Sorrows because of the geas, it would be odd if he allowed himself to be possessed by Mythal if he thought he couldn't control it. However, he can be rash and prideful, so he could be wrong about that. Imagine if we were to persuade him to abandon his plan, only for Mythal to intervene and force him to complete it (as was implied was the case with Anders and Justice on the rivalry path - I don't believe it myself for the reasons I give above).
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Post by Solas on Oct 2, 2020 18:34:29 GMT
Idk. That was the plan at one point at least, so they must have had a basis for an idea of the 'how' in mind at one time or another. It's magicworld I guess. You could ask how do you split the godhood from the power, and you could ask how does one split off a piece of themselves in a Horcrux-like manner and thereby survive death, and we know the latter can happen.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 2, 2020 19:58:46 GMT
It would be interesting to understand the source of evanuris immortality. The way in which they can survive/revive even if killed. Because I don't think it's "a passive ability that unlocks automatically when you become a super-powerful-mage-almost-a-god".
There should be a ritual, a price to pay, a "connection" to some kind of powerful magic source, maybe the very essence of magic.
And that is that it has been done, it can be undone. Just as the archidemon's ability to reincarnate can be blocked, so maybe can that of the evanuris/mythal?
Is this what solas must understand and realize before tearing down the veil?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 2, 2020 20:33:05 GMT
Another thing that puzzled me about what Solas says in Trespasser. He claimed part of the reason he shut them away is that he didn't think he could kill them permanently and then uses Mythal as an example. Which would suggest he knew Mythal wasn't really dead or why would he think the others couldn't be killed?
To be honest, I would have thought it was more a case that it would have been nearly impossible to kill them all at the same time but he realised it would be possible to entrap them together.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 2, 2020 20:54:25 GMT
Another thing that puzzled me about what Solas says in Trespasser. He claimed part of the reason he shut them away is that he didn't think he could kill them permanently and then uses Mythal as an example. Which would suggest he knew Mythal wasn't really dead or why would he think the others couldn't be killed? To be honest, I would have thought it was more a case that it would have been nearly impossible to kill them all at the same time but he realised it would be possible to entrap them together. Could just be the stories about him being a trickster god are true and he is lying through his teeth to spin a story that benefits him, same as he has done throughout the game. I’m hoping in the next game we get other perspectives about that era.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 2, 2020 20:55:06 GMT
It would be interesting to understand the source of evanuris immortality. The way in which they can survive/revive even if killed. Because I don't think it's "a passive ability that unlocks automatically when you become a super-powerful-mage-almost-a-god". There should be a ritual, a price to pay, a "connection" to some kind of powerful magic source, maybe the very essence of magic. And that is that it has been done, it can be undone. Just as the archidemon's ability to reincarnate can be blocked, so maybe can that of the evanuris/mythal? Is this what solas must understand and realize before tearing down the veil? Immortality in the form of no-death-of-old-age just seems to be the result of living in a world connected with the fade, a realm that tends to view time more like an idea than an actual immutable law. Although unlike most elves at the time, the evanuris seem to take that immortality is a bit further with thier resurrections. If I had to take a guess, I expect spirits and belief are involved. The only set of gods that I know of that can be killed only to be reborn later those known by the avvar, and this is done because they are believed in by their followers who are willing to perform rituals to see them reborn. It could be the evanuris, with thier power/knowledge of spirits, attained similar results with their own souls and used thier believers as conduits to gain even greater power--including the ability to be reborn when killed. Of course, I expect in the times of Arlathan the elvhen population is greater than what the avvar ever had. Plus they probably had a greater emphasis on religion in daily life than the avvar too, so odds are good they made the avvari pantheon look meek in comparison. Especially since there was no veil holding anything back. Combined with magical rituals that Solas said could last for a millennia, the evanuris could have effectively made themselves perpetually eternal through thier followers. Or at least the idea of them at any rate. If they wanted to keep their personality/current array of memories that probably took additional effort. Or else they would just reform/transform into whatever the people believed, even if only by a tiny bit. As Dagna said in Jaws of Hakkon: When you become more than a person, you also become less than a person. Even with elvhenan now gone, the creators are still worshipped in some form or fashion by the Dalish and some city elves. And even if they weren't, the echoes of countless years of worship still resound and echo in the fade itself. Combined with the fact they are (im)mortals themselves and not spirits, they are likely capable of persisting through thier will/power for a time. In which case, while permanently killing them off may be off the table, we can try to seal them away until the idea of them is forgotten or....kill them once and hope 'they' (the idea of the evanuris) are reborn in a more modern form. If the sealed gods are blighted like many theories say, then odds are we have to destroy their souls to be safe, leaving the power of creator belief to be held by someone or something else. Like spirits or powerful wisps. Which can then either reform into new 'modern' Creators or be taken by another person with knowledge of the fade (ex. Solas and/or Mythal).
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 3, 2020 7:34:59 GMT
Could just be the stories about him being a trickster god are true and he is lying through his teeth to spin a story that benefits him, same as he has done throughout the game. I’m hoping in the next game we get other perspectives about that era. That thought has occurred to me too. I was hoping there might be another perspective but Tevinter Nights just laid on the corruption of the Evanuris further, at least Ghilan'nain anyway, whilst still presenting Solas as being conflicted. However, I wasn't convinced by that because he changed his tune yet again from 'my plan is probably going to destroy your world' to 'my plan is going to save this world but not everyone may survive it'. It was odd that Charter didn't pick up on that. He gave three different reasons for taking action against the Evanuris to a friendly Inquisitor so I do wonder if he just changes his story to satisfy the listener. I'm happy to believe that Ghilan'nain was some sort of crazy inventor type and Andruil was dodgy too, which is hardly surprising considering they have always been linked to one another, although the Way of Three Trees seems a reasonable enough philosophy to live by. Elgar'nan seems likely to have always lived up to his name and the twin souls Falon'Din and Dirthamen are also dubious. However, what of Sylaise and June? Also, Fen'Harel seemed happy enough to support the system whilst Mythal was in charge and, regardless of what he claims, the codex in her own temple seems to suggest she wasn't that different from the rest of them, so when he claims she was better than the rest, may be it is because she favoured him whereas the others did not. I certainly wouldn't take everything the Trickster says at face value, apart from his assertion that he will kill anyone who gets in his way.
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Post by telanadas on Oct 3, 2020 16:32:23 GMT
This is what always puzzles me. How do you split the essence from the power? Isn't the spirit of the person what gives them their power? This is how I see it too, story-wise it doesn't make sense to me that Flemeth could split her power and soul with a clean break between both. I think Morrigan was passed control of her cumulative will (meaning she now controls the well of sorrows) whereas Solas absorbed the willpower she had built up over centuries. Either way, I could see Mythal's will influencing them both except Morrigan would probably end up with the upper hand by the end of it all. ...which is why I think Solas mentions the dinan'shiral. He knows his choice to absorb her power will end in death whatever the outcome. Yes he says he's no one's agent but his own, but he willingly chose to accept Mythal's power knowing that Flemeth strongly believes in earning what you take. She would never have allowed him her power without knowing he would act in her favour. My interpretation of the epilogue is that Flemeth was apologising to Solas for what he must do. So I think Flemeth/Mythal actually has the upper hand in all of this and Solas is either her pawn or willing sacrifice for her cause. If Morrigan absorbed her godhood and Solas went against her in some way I could envision a showdown between her and Solas' own willpower. Because I’m starting to think that Mythal was not only absorbed for her power, but also is integral for Solas ritual. This is a good point and I can see this being the case...especially since the orb which is ancient and irreplaceable is broken beyond repair. Maybe absorbing her power even allowed him to unlock that particular eluvian in the epilogue which was flanked by a statue of himself and Mythal. Honestly, wondering about Solas/Mythal's interactions before the epilogue is something that keeps me up at night Solas giving the orb to the Venatori/Corypheus seems like a very desperate and dumb move for someone clever enough to entrap and imprison the evanuris and something Flemeth disapproved of. Flemeth had quite the reputation already and he was stalking the fade so he must have known she was around. I would have thought they would have consulted with each other as soon as Solas woke up if they were such good friends, but based on the dialogue and interactions that doesn't even seem to be the case. He mentions he travelled to her hut in the fade but it was empty save for the 'trinkets'(like maybe that wolf tooth on his armour). Then he says 'so Mythal endures' at the Temple of Mythal like he never expected it to be the case. If he didn't know about the state of the well of sorrows it does seem to me like Flemeth was avoiding him. Which makes me wonder if she manipulated these events all along, knowing who he is and how he operates. Flemeth says 'she knows the hearts of men', and while they are old friends she has also been scheming her revenge for centuries or more and knew he would be waking up at the moon's eclipse. The inquisitor even states 'this was no accident' when they realise Flemeth is Mythal after drinking from the well. Maybe Flemeth knew in his pride Solas would underestimate Corypheus and his plans would fail because he was foolish and acted impulsively. Flemeth says 'I knew you could come' like she knew absorbing her power his fallback plan so yeah, I wonder a lot if she used Solas' desperation to save the 'People' to her advantage. I agree with the OP, perhaps we are over estimating his invincibility as a result of joining with Mythal. There are a lot of things he can call on as an ancient elven dreamer but he is not immortal and remember Mythal was able to be killed in such a way that she was reduced to a shadow of her former glory back when she was truly powerful. So just having Mythal on board isn't necessarily going to help prevent someone from killing Solas. You just need the requisite knowledge to do so This is also a good point. Solas' rebellion was trying to unravel the evanuris lies: "The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can. In this place, we teach those who join us to unravel their lies."
Whatever is going on in this mosaic could be a hint as to their weakness.
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