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Post by biggydx on Oct 3, 2020 0:25:10 GMT
Inb4Don'tHaveMultiplayer There's a pretty high likelihood for the next Dragon Age game to come with a multiplayer component; whether people want it or not. For those who didn't play it, DA:I Multiplayer was modeled as a dungeon crawler where you'd essentially play with predefined characters with their own origins, classes, and unique skill trees. While multiplayer in DA4 could be wildly different than this style of combat, this should serve as a baseline for we MIGHT expect in the next title. In terms of what I believe the mode got right:
1) It attempted to add personality to our multiplayer characters, rather than having them be faceless soldiers with a few canned lines. 2) There was a greater degree of depth in each characters respective skill tree, and some characters - when outfitted with the right gear - had opportunities for multiple build options. 3) Keeping the game primarily PvE-focused meant there was more freedom to experiment with class abilities, kits, enemy types, and gear. 4) All things considered, it's a pretty chill game mode depending on what difficulty level you played on; and how geared up you were. 5) The Challenges system was a great addition, and gave you something to master and grind for; such as the banner silhouettes and titles. 6) The Prestige system was a cool concept, in theory, and getting a passive benefit for constantly playing your desired class preference felt rewarding. 7) Some of the live events were actually pretty fun, and helped in adding some lore to game; like the Varric tales (but I'll get back to that... >_>) 8) The various chest rooms having loot for you to nab was a fun part of the dungeon crawling experience. 9) Going for actual loot, rather than predefined gear (like Mass Effect), opened the door for greater build variety. In addition, improvements to perks on various amulets, rings, and weapons, made for far greater depth in player gameplay customization. When it came to things the mode got wrong:
1) There was waaaaay too much of an emphasis on loot-box grinding. I know this has become a staple in the more recent iterations of BioWare's multiplayer modes (starting with ME3), but this one has always grated me; on some level. Having only a chance at getting something, rather than it being assured, will always suck to a degree. Bolstering this issue was the lack of intentionality when it came to how you could get most of the games loot. If the gear grind is going to be the prevailing reason behind why we'll want to continue playing multiplayer modes in the future, then I'd argue it's better to be generous and let us grind for various rolls on a single gear piece, rather than having us play nonstop for just one item. Speaking of loot drops... 2) Some of the drop rates for certain items were absolutely abysmal, and the requirements to even obtain some of these weapons were absurd. Most notable among these were the Hakkon weapons. While generally good weapons during the time of their release, the reduction in drop chance for each one you got (from 15% down to 2%) made it an absolute slog in obtaining them. Worse still, is that you had to rely on the Dragons Call item to even have access to getting said weapons, which you had to craft with materials you needed to grind for. It was RNG, behind a consumable wall, behind a crafting material wall. 3) Speaking of Dragons Keep (the map), that map was reused WAY too much for new, powerful gear additions. It got stale real quick, and having to constantly upkeep Dragons Call's was already a chore by this point. Tying into this would also be the lack of new maps. 4) Technical bugs and networking issues would often hamper the experience. And let us not forget about the infamous key bug. 5) Live events felt underwhelming at times, and some events never felt like you had a chance of completing them. Though it's been awhile, I remember there were multiple events where either Playstation or Xbox players simply didn't have the numbers to complete the objectives, and this would happen across multiple weeks. The rewards from some of these events were also underwhelming. 6) On the topic of the treasure rooms, while they were a good concept, locking rooms behind specific class types was a bad move. No one person (or group) should be punished simply because they didn't play with a class/character needed for each respective door. Had the game altered the room unlocks to reflect the class composition of your team, I think this would have been a better realized system. 7) There was a pretty distinct imbalance between each of the classes. The Arcane Warrior had to undergo several changes to even find an identity. The Alchemist, Hunter, and Necromancer never found any solid ground with most players (though I still liked both of them), while the Silent Sister and Saarabas were absolute powerhouses. While the mode got better over time, I do feel like there was still some much needed room for improvement. I've got my own thoughts on what could be done to improve it, but I wanted to get everyone else's opinion beforehand.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 3, 2020 0:55:26 GMT
Its been years since I played, but the few things I remembered and they are mostly negative since that is what sticks with a person.
1) I hated the loot system, I only played for a short while but purely RNG loot so you could get the same piece of junk time and time again was frustrating. It doesn't have to be exactly like Mass Effect, but I appreciated that you would only be able to get something so many times in Mass Effect and then never again.
2) Overall the final stage of the fights. This is what drove me away from the MP aspect of Inquisition. I only finished a couple of maps in the first couple of weeks because those final bosses were just a major pain even on the easiest difficulty. Having total party kills multiple times because of inexperience or people not being the best shouldn't feel like a punishment.
3) The maps need to be designed not to lag so badly. Maybe its because my ISP travels across an international border as a chokepoint, but each time I transitioned between a zone I would lag to the point I thought I was going to crash. It became second per frame until it would catchup and would happen again with the next zone change.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Beerfish on Oct 3, 2020 1:27:02 GMT
Some very good points by the original poster i agree with for the most part.
I did not have a lot of problems with the loot system overall. Having hakkons via nightmare dragons was a terrible decision became an awful map.
Loved the personalities I'd like to see them go one step further.
Game was very laggy and unstable when it first came out, seemed to improve a lot.
Some pretty elcheapo tactics by Bioware for people that were soloing though.
Liked the crafting but would like more outfit customization. (As in 'hey i love the look of this outfit but it has way less armour than some ugly outfit)
Nice benefit for promoting and playing a lot, does the player become too uber strong in the long run? Yeah but you only do so if you play the heck out of the game.
I thought they had a very nice balance of classes. Healers, archers, fighters, rogues, mages all who could carry their weight in a game.
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Post by githcheater on Oct 3, 2020 1:39:10 GMT
I dislike the lottery loot system. I hated repeatedly waiting for that last piece of level 2 cloth so that I could build decent arcane warrior armor.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 3, 2020 3:41:23 GMT
I haven't played it at all, but assuming there is one, the things that would get me interested in a multiplayer mode are:
- A plot (or alternatively, have certain main game missions multiplay-able, like Marvel's Avengers does)
- Making our own characters rather than using pre-built, maybe with more limited options. Eg you pick a mage, and then you have to pick a subclass that determines the skills you have access to.
- Cosmetic rewards (armor/weapon skins, new hairstyles, etc) that can be used in single and multiplayer mode.
- The ability to move equipment and such between modes, so that a dagger my sp rogue doesn't need could go to my mp rogue instead, and vice versa.
- A wide variety of maps and missions.
- Most important/useful for me, the ability to play with AI companions if I can't find a match or don't want to match with others, also similar to Marvel's Avengers.
I would also take something like an arena or gauntlet mode where you see how long you can survive/how far you can get alone or with friends, with rewards for reaching certain milestones.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 3, 2020 4:03:01 GMT
2) Overall the final stage of the fights. This is what drove me away from the MP aspect of Inquisition. I only finished a couple of maps in the first couple of weeks because those final bosses were just a major pain even on the easiest difficulty. Having total party kills multiple times because of inexperience or people not being the best shouldn't feel like a punishment. Oh yeah, the Envy Demon during the games launch. Yeah, that thing absolutely murdered newcomers. It ended up getting nerfed but I think it absolutely served as a deterrent for people who may have at least liked the Dungeon Crawling aspect of the game.
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Oct 3, 2020 5:29:49 GMT
2) Overall the final stage of the fights. This is what drove me away from the MP aspect of Inquisition. I only finished a couple of maps in the first couple of weeks because those final bosses were just a major pain even on the easiest difficulty. Having total party kills multiple times because of inexperience or people not being the best shouldn't feel like a punishment. Oh yeah, the Envy Demon during the games launch. Yeah, that thing absolutely murdered newcomers. It ended up getting nerfed but I think it absolutely served as a deterrent for people who may have at least liked the Dungeon Crawling aspect of the game. Yes they had suspect balancing original on the bosses and some awful bugs they did not know how to fix that drive players away. (The dreaded no key bug)
Too bad it did not release as it is now as other than too few maps a number of problems were cleared up by the BioWare.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 3, 2020 7:29:57 GMT
No lottery loot (same stuff again and again)
No massive IMMUNITIES on many enemies which make some kits unable to stop/delay enemy advancement. No always hitting projectiles like from the stupid weakening Spirits or Archers from another side of the map almost.. Gating system for Health Barrier and Guard. Gating system to a lot of places, like revive (fex. on Nightmare you can be instakilled the instant you're revived), enemies special moves (looking at you Qunari mf's like spearmen being able to still stagger you with rotating spear move even they are staggered and Qunari assasins can just jump over you all the time PLUS destroy your barrier. WTH they were thinking?) etc.
Just few from the top of my head. I like the gamemode overall though, but the grind is largest of all BW MP games I've played, especially getting Hakkons. Sigh.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 3, 2020 8:11:20 GMT
I like 4 player co op games like Left4Dead, Vermintide and Warframe, but I played DAMP (what an apt acronym) for only a few hours.
For me, this game type needs two things: enjoyable combat and a good loot/cosmetics progression, and DAMP didn't provide either for me during those few hours. And there's only one chance for a first impression.
The banter was grating. Hearing lines like "I had a parakeet once. It was blue. Then it died." for more than half a dozen times in less than two minutes got old really, really quickly, even within those handfuls hours I actually played.
To me, DAMP could be summarized as sluggish combat followed by garbage loot. Maybe it gets better after a few hours, but to me the game wasn't fun enough to slog through the initial boredom in the vague hope of the gameplay loop improving later on. Other dev studios simply made better games more worth my time.
I don't have any detailed suggestions for what to change because I feel that the very basics need so much work.
Also, if it will be as actively hostile to solo players as Anthem is, it will be an automatic hard pass.
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Post by parsival on Oct 3, 2020 8:30:34 GMT
I did like the decision to give the characters some background and depth - there was enough for me to use them as player characters in my own pen-and-paper Dragon Age RPG campaign.
The thing I didn't like came later on, when seemingly everyone in multi-player had their character don the same armour (I think it was wyvern scale). It took away their individuality and just made them all look like clones.
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Post by Adia on Oct 3, 2020 8:40:27 GMT
If I were to try the multiplayer mode, or even play it casually, these are my must haves:
* No loot boxes * Good loot * No aggressive monetization (impossible for EA) * Progression that includes customization * Narrative tie in * Unique opponents * Unique environments (I don't mean the level design, I mean the look of things)
- I'm okay with them retexturing / remodeling if there's no other choice, but don't just repeat the exact same assets from the main game without making some changes.
As it stands currently, the multiplayer in Bioware's titles is just shoehorned to make more money while putting the least amount of effort with a heavy monetization system, which is why barely anyone comes back to play it.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Oct 3, 2020 9:46:33 GMT
Things I'd like to see changed:
- No uncapped promotions, to me it just ruined the game in the end, but I've gone on about it enough in the past, I'm not bringing it all up again - Custom characters, would love to be able to create my own with a basic cc, the predefined were nice & all, but hearing the same amount of limited lines over & over again did get tiresome, especially when everyone just played the same characters over & over again - overhaul the loot, I'd say have blueprints & mats sold by the merchant for gold, I personally liked the smashing of pots, or everyone running after the golden nug like they were possessed - Enemies unique to multiplayer, or have their behaviour & resistances modified to allow for greater player flexibility (could've worded that sentence better) - Trading between players/friendslist would be awesome - Greater varmiety of maps - Reasonable MTX's they're going to be in, but be sensible with the prices & keep them to cosmetic only
That's all I can think if atm
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Post by samurailink on Oct 5, 2020 2:52:05 GMT
I liked DAI's multiplayer, I didn't play a super massive amount but whenever I have PS+ I hop on for a few hours. At launch funnily enough I played on my own a lot because my connection started freaking out if it had to deal with another person. I liked how each character was a pre-set character, it endeared me to unlocking each of them to hear the couple of lines about them, for a sequel I'd love for them to bring it back (assuming 4 is still heisty I assume we'll have co-op heists) but I hope he get more dialogue for each of them, or if thats going to affect development on single player, just make it less frequent. Each line should be twice a mission tops. The later DLC characters (especially Zither) were super unique and while I'll forever be a little disappointed I can't play Zither class in the main game, I hope a possible sequel allows them another chance to give us some weird experimental game play styles. A character I'm not stuck with for more than 15 minutes is probably the ideal way to try out new combat ideas for players. I hope they use the new game to explore character archetypes the main game missed out on again. I wasn't super big on the crafting system I feel like there's definitely a way of going about it that can be more enjoyable for the players while still covering the corporate mandates of shake down players. I think in concept it wasn't too bad but I don't think it should have been tied to character unlocks.The armors, sure but trying to find 20+ of a specific metal kind, etc took ages and because of it I'm still missing the Avaar character. With luck they could tie all there money making up in something like cosmetics so that I personally won't have to care about it but I'll still see Orlesian players flaunting there newest silly hat. Maybe it was just me but I also felt the matches went on a round or two too long. I like my online play in short bursts given that I can't pause. Letting me choose Round count/Long-Short game when creating a match would be awesome. Infinite level ups by prestige were dumb. I entirely get why the exist, they want you to play forever and the way they do that is to make you feel like your progressing forever but I hate when I can join a party and some people can tear down bosses in a few hits while other party members are struggling with basic enemies. I'm fine with players who play more having better equipment that let them do a little more damage and make us who play the game less think ooh look at there lovely shiny hat, I hope that can be me some day. But the online these days is ridiculous, most of the people still on have prestiged so much that they're left with no challenge and are trivializing all the enemies I'd otherwise be having an enjoyable struggle against instantly. Now nobody wins. My biggest hope is that they find a way to rid players with bad internet falling through the entire dragon castle map and being forced to leave halfway through the game every second or so game. Not that i'm bitter.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 5, 2020 9:27:11 GMT
Yeah the matches are sometimes on a longer side, although not as bad as in me3mp..
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 5, 2020 16:41:37 GMT
- less bugs - smaller stepping stones for progression milestones - new content pipeline - live and lively balance passes & communication - no power creep like promotions - fun gameplay out of the box instead having to grind out hours to unlock levels, characters or whatever gates off gameplay (looking at you, MEAMP especially) - resonable progression that supports "discovering" new ways to play - progression isn't main motivator - fun gameplay is - range of diverse picks that allow casul fun up to skill-dependant gameplay - diverse picks - a work of love and dedication for us to appreciate
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 5, 2020 16:49:05 GMT
Looking at Deep Rock Galactic the found a good formula. Progression is unlocking basic gear one by one until characters are complete. Only 4 characters. Base equipment comes with 1 alternative to unlock (2 Main gun, 2 Sidearm, two "specials", 3 grenades). Upgrades cost credits and materials you gather on missions (mining mostly bc Space Dwarfs)
After the basic stuff is unlocked you can opt to hunt cosmetics and "overclocks" which are weapon modifications mostly (e.g. Cryo Gun freezes faster but consumes more fuel, Revolver gets more damage but slower aim jitter recovery after shot)
Main variety is the procedural maps. There are certain blueprints you'll recognize but the terrain (all caves) is destructible and malleable so you rarely feel like playing the very same maps over and over. This works surprisingly well and solid.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 6, 2020 23:29:39 GMT
Finally got some time to provide my own opinions
1) First and foremost, the loot-box style delivery of items needs to go away. Just make it loot that you get while in the activity. If the mode needs support through microtransaction revenue, then have the premium-priced content be cosmetics and boosters. These cosmetics could include unique player banners, decals, weapon skins, character armor sets, and/or boosters for XP or Gold.
2) Most of the gear you obtain should come from simply playing the content itself. While you could have some generic weapons/gear items available for purchase at the store, the overall quality of these items should be less than that of what you get from playing. At best, a store should serve to help you purchase new cosmetics, in-game consumables (like Bee Jars), obtaining crafting components, or the occasional gear recipe (maybe as part of an event, or just character armor).
3) The higher the difficulty, the better the gear quality. I think this is a pretty understandable. Want the best stuff? Play on the toughest difficulty.
4) As some here have said, if the Prestige system returns then there should be a cap on how much of a bonus you get for a particular stat. You could even take it from the Mass Effect Andromeda approach where each class has its own unique prestige bonuses. So, for example, Rogues would get Prestige Bonuses towards Cunning (Crit Chance), while Warriors would get bonuses towards Constitution (HP)
5) This one is a bit more general (as it would impact combat in the game as a whole), but I think there should be more flexibility in terms of what types of armor and weapons we want to use. Obviously, if the predefined character you're using isn't a mage, then it makes no sense that they can wield a staff. However, if I want to try something crazy like a bow-wielding warrior, I'd like to have that as an option. Even if that's not possible, at the very least let me where whatever class of armor I want.
6) If the goal towards the latter end of DAMP was to have procedurally generated zones, then I think BioWare needs to at least have more vistas for us to explore than just the same 4 maps over and over again. In short, we need more map variety.
7) Add more depth to the Challenge system. I feel like DAMP was going in the right direction, and having milestones to achieve is a great way to incentivize player retention. Achieving milestones should come with the same benefits as before (gold, banners, titles), but would be sweetened if it also came with armor and weapon aesthetics. IIRC, I think one of the things the DAMP team wanted to do with the Challenges system was, once you've prestiged enough with a certain character, you would start off at a higher base level (ex. level 5) than you normally would (level 1). That would be a good way to reward players who've stuck with a character long enough. If that's not doable, then maybe having it so that we can obtain a few additional skill points to spend (if we complete some pretty long/challenge milestones) would be a viable alternative.
8) While Heartbreaker difficulty was really only intended for people who prestiged heavily, the addition of several new attacks on the various enemy factions should serve as a good rubric to carry over to the next games multiplayer iteration. It's easy to increase enemy health and damage, and then call it day. Adding new abilities for them entirely, on a per difficulty basis, would be fantastic; which I hope would translate to the base game as well.
This is all stuff at the top of my head. Maybe I might come back to this later on.
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Oct 7, 2020 21:47:41 GMT
Since I have started playing again a few big DO NOT REPEATS from the current game.
- Avoid totally ridiculous enemies like the Qunari spear chuckers. Yeah this is a fantasy game so don't expect any realize but lets at least make an effort. It is not their abilities that are a problem it is how it is implemented, having them block everything with a spear is foolish. If you want them to avoid projectiles let them at least toss up some kind of barrier ala me3mp phantoms that will bock things.
- Do not screw over solo games and at the same time encourage people to start solo, it is pure trolling. If you are in matchmaking and you do not find a game right quick it sticks you as the host, it encourage you to 'go start a game and then people will join'. And yet they do things to solo games to penalize you.
There will always be a random high level critter show up in the game often in the 1st wave.
If you get the darkspawn wave 4 will of course always be the bolters which is normal but also always have the poison and torch objective.
Just a troll job.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 8, 2020 5:54:48 GMT
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An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
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Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Dragon Age The Veilguard
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 9, 2020 13:56:18 GMT
- fun gameplay out of the box instead having to grind out hours to unlock levels, characters or whatever gates off gameplay (looking at you, MEAMP especially) Actually, what the ex-me3mp players say its worse on me3mp than in MEAMP. In the lines of "It took me less than half the time to get UR's in MEAMP compared to me3mp and even then the UR's needed a lot of leveing in me3mp to be playable/good" etc. and this is not from just one person, a lot who left me3mp behind have said this. Anyway I approve the other points
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biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
BiggyMD
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Post by biggydx on Oct 9, 2020 18:44:06 GMT
- fun gameplay out of the box instead having to grind out hours to unlock levels, characters or whatever gates off gameplay (looking at you, MEAMP especially) Actually, what the ex-me3mp players say its worse on me3mp than in MEAMP. In the lines of "It took me less than half the time to get UR's in MEAMP compared to me3mp and even then the UR's needed a lot of leveing in me3mp to be playable/good" etc. and this is not from just one person, a lot who left me3mp behind have said this. Anyway I approve the other points I'd even say that MEA:MP had the "better" loot box system, since it had the pity count tied to the Premium boxes. So every ten Premium boxes that were opened gave you a guaranteed UR. That was definitely not the case in ME3. I think people also forgot how much slower combat was in ME3, as well as how the three additional waves (8-10) also increased its duration. I think some might have perceived ME3 as being less grindy (at a base level) because of all the events that basically gave you a free UR, as well as it being significantly easier to spawn wipe enemies in ME3. BioWare also didnt help themselves, in ME:A, when they dropped those three archetypes for every weapon; which was absolute bullshit btw.
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githcheater
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by githcheater on Oct 10, 2020 1:45:19 GMT
Dumb question - What is UR?
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9,146
Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
5,061
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Dragon Age The Veilguard
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 10, 2020 7:09:40 GMT
Dumb question - What is UR? Ultra Rare... yeah stupid shortenings of words aka abbreviations.
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kresa
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Kresaa
Posts: 71 Likes: 73
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kresa
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Kresaa
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Post by kresa on Oct 14, 2020 19:08:45 GMT
For me the most important thing is :
They need to figure out how to generate new content faster. DA:I multiplayer had so little in terms of content. I played it a lot and always kept waiting for something new but it rarely happened. If we compare it to ME:3 Multiplayer the difference is so big.
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biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
BiggyMD
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Post by biggydx on Oct 14, 2020 21:47:03 GMT
For me the most important thing is : They need to figure out how to generate new content faster. DA:I multiplayer had so little in terms of content. I played it a lot and always kept waiting for something new but it rarely happened. If we compare it to ME:3 Multiplayer the difference is so big. I imagine this was partly due to: 1) ME3 having the Montreal studio working on its content 2) The DAMP team not being staffed with a lot of people/resources 3) [Speculation on my part] The numerous technical bugs and balance changes needed required people being pulled off of new content
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