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Post by adonniel on Oct 15, 2020 20:12:58 GMT
The solution to multi player and all of its bugs is to not have multi player.
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Post by githcheater on Oct 15, 2020 20:30:20 GMT
The solution to multi player and all of its bugs is to not have multi player. The solution to computers and all their bugs is not to have computers.
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Post by adonniel on Oct 16, 2020 1:42:52 GMT
The solution to computers and all their bugs is not to have computers. You can't have computer without a computer. You can have DA single player without DA multi player.
We've recently had a poll asking which features we'd be willing to sacrifice to improve DA quality. The answer is multi player.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 16, 2020 15:25:43 GMT
The solution to computers and all their bugs is not to have computers. You can't have computer without a computer. You can have DA single player without DA multi player.
We've recently had a poll asking which features we'd be willing to sacrifice to improve DA quality. The answer is multi player.
Can I ask why people think the addition of multiplayer translates into worse quality for the game? If the idea is that it would pull resources away from the main game, I would argue that - if there isn't multiplayer - then EA would likely decide to not give them more money (in total); since the workload is less. I'm not opposed to them taking it out. I just dont see how having multiplayer automatically means the game is lesser because of it. I could argue that the success of ME3 MP helped spur the sizable size of the Citadel DLC.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Beerfish on Oct 16, 2020 16:37:18 GMT
Frankly I am getting tired of single player only snobs shitting all over mp games that some people enjoy. Mostly based on one poor decision by bioware years ago to have mp affect sp in one aspect.
Especially when BioWare MP games have not been pvp and not been cesspools of bad players.
The majority of bioware mp game base are good helpful players that will go out of their way to help other players. Yes there are always a few bad seeds.
There are also more than a few die hard SP players that 'hate mp games' that have actually found that mp can be fun.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 16, 2020 16:53:30 GMT
the best multiplayer model IMO is the rockstar one. An open world (or semi-open world) single player game, with a great story, great characters. You play it, enjoy it, finish it.
Then, on those same maps, with new characters and new activities, if you want, you can start the multiplayer campaign.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 16, 2020 17:06:59 GMT
Frankly I am getting tired of single player only snobs shitting all over mp games that some people enjoy. Mostly based on one poor decision by bioware years ago to have mp affect sp in one aspect. Especially when BioWare MP games have not been pvp and not been cesspools of bad players. The majority of bioware mp game base are good helpful players that will go out of their way to help other players. Yes there are always a few bad seeds. There are also more than a few die hard SP players that 'hate mp games' that have actually found that mp can be fun. Not just that, but ME3 MP was what ended up leading me to willingly enter parties with other people. While I would play multiplayer from time to time in other games, ME3 MP was the first one where I actively went into peoples parties. Not only did I make some great online friends to play with during those days, we still played with each into other multiplayer games like Destiny, Titanfall, Neverwinter Nights II port to console, Battleborn, DA:I MP, Star Wars Battlefront, and Dauntless.
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Post by lynroy on Oct 16, 2020 19:45:33 GMT
Right off the bat, I haven't played DAMP since DragonRacer finally got her Drain Life ring that she had been after for ages. I don't even remember what year that was but it was a while ago. That said from my experience with the MP I agree with a lot of the points that have already been made by OP and others. The grinding especially turned me away from playing. It felt like all the good things were waaay out of reach or to do more than tickle demons I needed to promote like crazy. I wasn't going to waste my time grinding those out. I remember it being ridiculous to get crafting materials. The MP was also not solo friendly. I mostly played with friends or solo. ME3MP presents, for me, a thrilling challenge to do alone and I still mostly play that one solo too. It was also difficult to find lobbies that had people or I'd get cycled to the same lobby I just left. I do thank the MP for encouraging me to branch out with different classes in SP. You mean I didn't have to use a bow all the time? Madness. I became quite attached to Korbin the twerking Dwarf. The challenges were mostly fun. - Avoid totally ridiculous enemies like the Qunari spear chuckers. Yeah this is a fantasy game so don't expect any realize but lets at least make an effort. It is not their abilities that are a problem it is how it is implemented, having them block everything with a spear is foolish. If you want them to avoid projectiles let them at least toss up some kind of barrier ala me3mp phantoms that will bock things. git gud
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Post by adonniel on Oct 16, 2020 19:59:02 GMT
Can I ask why people think the addition of multiplayer translates into worse quality for the game? If the idea is that it would pull resources away from the main game, I would argue that - if there isn't multiplayer - then EA would likely decide to not give them more money (in total); since the workload is less. I'm not opposed to them taking it out. I just dont see how having multiplayer automatically means the game is lesser because of it. I could argue that the success of ME3 MP helped spur the sizable size of the Citadel DLC. I do not perceive the game as lesser. I believe the foundations of multiplayer and single player games are different in essence because people in each are following a completely different play model. Therefore, I do not favour the idea of crisscrossing them in general, the worse example being ME where I couldn't even get a positive game ending without multiplayer. I perceive this as nearly two different games being developed in parallel and one is loosely attached to the other with all these add on 'features,' I wouldn't want, on which my computer most likely will choke due to mass. We can only guess how resources are being allocated, but I imagine getting money in general is a very stingy project and the more you ask for, the harder and longer it is to get proper investments.
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Post by Beerfish on Oct 16, 2020 20:32:27 GMT
- Avoid totally ridiculous enemies like the Qunari spear chuckers. Yeah this is a fantasy game so don't expect any realize but lets at least make an effort. It is not their abilities that are a problem it is how it is implemented, having them block everything with a spear is foolish. If you want them to avoid projectiles let them at least toss up some kind of barrier ala me3mp phantoms that will bock things. git gud Nothing to do with gitting gud or the difficulty, it is the plausibility factor.
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Post by Frost on Oct 17, 2020 0:23:46 GMT
Can I ask why people think the addition of multiplayer translates into worse quality for the game? If the idea is that it would pull resources away from the main game, I would argue that - if there isn't multiplayer - then EA would likely decide to not give them more money (in total); since the workload is less. I'm not opposed to them taking it out. I just dont see how having multiplayer automatically means the game is lesser because of it. I could argue that the success of ME3 MP helped spur the sizable size of the Citadel DLC. Here are my main reasons (you asked ):
- They gate single-player content behind multiplayer
- They do not take a balanced approach to games having multiplayer and value it above single-player rpgs. This has greatly hurt their rpgs overall, as EA doesn't value what was their key strength.
They don't evaluate if multiplayer would be a good fit for a game. All games must have it. It doesn't matter if people want it or not.
They were willing to leave 8+ years between Dragon Age games (even with DAI ending on a cliffhanger), so that they could focus on a multiplayer-only game, Anthem.
EA values multiplayer so much that it would give extra money for multiplayer but would not give that same money for other needed features. In DAI they had huge issues with not having proper side quests and camera for dialogue. However, even having such major issues, they included multiplayer. They were fine with ditching side quests but not multiplayer!!!
- Multiplayer takes a lot of work and can have design needs that are opposite of single-player design needs
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Post by biggydx on Oct 17, 2020 3:25:40 GMT
I'll provide my own critiques then. They gate single-player content behind multiplayer While this was indeed the case when it came to EMS score in ME3, multiplayer additions afterwards no longer had an impact on the single-player games performance. DA:I MP was agnostic to the single-player mode, and was not required to earn a particular ending, or made you miss out on any story content. ME:A MP, on the other hand, actually benefited single-player. Playing ME:A MP gave you supply packages that included things like materials and weapons that could be used in the singleplayer campaign. I don't know how DA4 will turn out, since it is being mentioned as live-service, but based on BioWare's previous installments, they've been moving away from having singleplayer content be locked off by multiplayer. They do not take a balanced approach to games having multiplayer and value it above single-player rpgs. This has greatly hurt their rpgs overall, as EA doesn't value what was their key strength. The existence of multiplayer, in BioWare's franchise history, has largely had no impact on the single-player aspect of their games. For instance: - SW:TOR is an MMO, but most players would agree that it plays like a singleplayer game to some extent. Deference was given more to the singleplayer-minded player in that case.
- In the case of Mass Effect 3, the multiplayer portion of the game was mostly (if not entirely) handled by BioWare Montreal, while Edmonton worked on the base game.
- With DA:I, we already got confirmation from one of the multiplayer developers here (Luke Barrett) stating that multiplayer for the game was given far less attention. As a few others here, including myself, would also attest to, DAMP received VERY little when it came to content. ME3MP received a host of new maps, characters, weapons, abilities, etc. The most substantial content addition that came to DAMP was Dragonskeep. Much of the other content additions were the pulling of assets from DA:I's singleplayer DLC's; like the Qunari and Darkspawn factions.
- ME:A would likely be the only game that meets your criteria of getting additional resources, but the games stagnation was not due to the existence of multiplayer, but everything to do with poor conceptualization, time management, and working around the Frostbite engine. Not only that, but those three points have been attributable to many of BioWares recent woes; as far back as DA:I.
They don't evaluate if multiplayer would be a good fit for a game. All games must have it. It doesn't matter if people want it or not. If the sentiment is that their games shouldn't have multiplayer, then I would say that's up to them. Do I worry about this multiplayer modes being well-conceived or them gating off content? Yes. My own thoughts on this is, I couldn't care either way. If they don't do it, that's fine. If they do it, okay. But I expect you to give it the attention it deserves if you are going to bother with it. ME3 MP, as well as DAMP, showed us that they can balance SP and MP content. They were willing to leave 8+ years between Dragon Age games (even with DAI ending on a cliffhanger), so that they could focus on a multiplayer-only game, Anthem. Personally, I don't think it would of mattered if it was a multiplayer game (like Anthem) or not. BioWare wanted to make a new IP. That alone takes time and resources; far more than continuing a series. I promise you that nothing would have changed if their new IP was a single-player only game, other than the games perception. The same amount of time likely would have went into that new IP, and if the games development was as janked as Anthems, it would have suffered the same fate. EA values multiplayer so much that it would give extra money for multiplayer but would not give that same money for other needed features. In DAI they had huge issues with not having proper side quests and camera for dialogue. However, even having such major issues, they included multiplayer. They were fine with ditching side quests but not multiplayer!!! While I'll agree with you that EA likely value multiplayer more, due to how easy it is to monetize, much of DA:I's problems had a lot to do with the team running down the clock due to pre-production stagnation and them dealing with the Frostbite engine. DA:I using the Frostbite engine, a first for BioWare, meant that it came with a lot of bugs. The short production time the game had also likely contributed to them not being able to solve all the games problems. It probably also led to the sidequests being far less involved and more fetch quest based. We also know from Mike Laidlaw that the game being locked into last-gen also hurt the teams ability to do the player focused camera during dialogue; among other things they wanted to do. The game also suffered from a lot of identity issues. Mike said the team wanted to treat the game like Skyrim, given its popularity at the time, but that didn't mesh well with the narratively driven aspects of most of BioWare's games. It's why the open world spaces felt so much like an MMO. Also, I can absolutely tell you that multiplayer in that game wasn't free of bugs either; I'd say it was even worse (at the start). There were a number of networking problems, maps sometimes would allow you to progress, enemies would bug out, etc. - Multiplayer takes a lot of work and can have design needs that are opposite of single-player design needs
As I've said above, if you're going to include multiplayer in your game, you should give it some T.L.C. It's just as much a part of the game as the single-player campaign, as much as I know some players only like one side; or the other. That being said, normally there's a live-team (Multiplayer team) designated to working on that aspect of the game. That's what BioWare Montreal was for in ME3. In addition, many of the multiplayer teams rely on content produced by the singleplayer team because they can port and remix the assets into the multiplayer side of the game. It's why a lot of character appearances in ME3 MP were copy-pasted.
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