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Post by The Elder King on Dec 8, 2020 20:14:42 GMT
The weird thing is that he tweeted after Darrah’s departure as if the devs in BioWare share different opinions and views from Darrah. While we can’t obviously know the totality, there are many that works in BioWare and DA that are on Twitter, that share clearly the same views form Darrah and were tweeting happily when Darrah replied to Ellis.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Dec 8, 2020 20:18:20 GMT
but this thread is pointless, we might as well make a thread for every other BW actor/staff and their opinions and whether or not they're returning. I can understand your point but i have to disagree. What Ellis did was something you don´t see every day. This wasn´t about his political views but he had attacked a former higher ranking Bioware employee and just the Cullen characters which don´t own for this feud.
So i am sorry this is valid discussion because Ellis won´t work for Bioware and most likely EA ever again. Maybe he won´t find any work in games industry.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Remmirath on Dec 8, 2020 20:40:29 GMT
Assuming that the game is taking place in a different area with a new protagonist, the easiest thing would be to not see Cullen at all. He could still be mentioned, possibly even often if what the Inquisition is doing is important and he's still part of that, but -- unless they've already specifically written it that way -- I don't see any reason that Cullen would have to show up.
That said, re-casting him could also work. Not every character has had the same voice actor consistently, and so long as they find somebody who's close enough that it's not jarring, I wouldn't think most people would have a problem with that.
It's baffling that Ellis would think he'd still get hired after all that.
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Post by turianlannister on Dec 9, 2020 1:49:02 GMT
Assuming that the game is taking place in a different area with a new protagonist, the easiest thing would be to not see Cullen at all. He could still be mentioned, possibly even often if what the Inquisition is doing is important and he's still part of that, but -- unless they've already specifically written it that way -- I don't see any reason that Cullen would have to show up. That said, re-casting him could also work. Not every character has had the same voice actor consistently, and so long as they find somebody who's close enough that it's not jarring, I wouldn't think most people would have a problem with that. It's baffling that Ellis would think he'd still get hired after all that. If Cullen is recast it would be the first time a Greg Ellis character was recast, he was originally Anders in Dragon Age Origins Awakening but the part was recast with Adam Howden for Dragon Age 2
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2020 2:23:33 GMT
What exactly is the problem? They were never obligated to bring Cullen back or to hire Greg Ellis to voice him.
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Post by Serza on Dec 9, 2020 8:51:24 GMT
Just recast the role to someone else, and let the bigot stew in his filth.
Whoa, bigot? What did I miss?
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Post by Sifr on Dec 9, 2020 9:11:52 GMT
Like how Manu Intiraymi attacked another Star Trek actor on twitter and his character ended up being recast and killed off on Picard Which only annoyed Trek fans because of petty and meanspirited it came across as.
No-one defends Manu's actions, nor would anyone consider Icheb to be a fan-favourite character from Voyager, but was it really worth bringing back the character just to drop a bus on him because of his actor's transgressions? They could have easily not brought him back at all and given Seven a better plot that didn't have her go all John Wick after his death.
Same thing is true of the Two and a Half Men finale where they resurrected Charlie Sheen's character and had him appear from behind (played by a body double), only to drop a piano on him and cut to Chuck Lorre saying "Winning". Obviously, Charlie Sheen was a complete nightmare to work with, but it didn't exactly look any less childish of the producers for having sunk to his level with that stunt.
It'd be far better to simply leave Cullen out of future games (not that he needs to appear anyway), rather than recast him or kill him off simply because they're squabbling with Ellis.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 9:34:51 GMT
Just recast the role to someone else, and let the bigot stew in his filth.
Whoa, bigot? What did I miss?
Who knows. Kids these days use that word as an insult rather than what it's ment to be used for.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 9, 2020 10:01:03 GMT
Whoa, bigot? What did I miss?
Who knows. Kids these days use that word as an insult rather than what it's ment to be used for. I think it’s quite easy to find why (some) people would call him a bigot, with a quick search online. I guess depending on the political spectrum, views and mindset of a person, he/she can react to what Ellis said differently. I don’t think the mods want us to discuss it here anyway, since we did once in the twitter thread, and the discussion was shut down. What I’d say is that from what I gathered, he did questionable things in conventions that rubbed the fan the wrong way, regardless of his views, and that this whole situation was caused by him, as he tweeted about DA months ago as if he was part of the project, and spurred fans to ask the devs, Darrah included, about his role. Given that it’s obvious that he didn’t have any role or contact with BioWare for DA4, it’s likely that he did so to promote himself, as he knows how popular the franchise and Cullen are.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 10:02:42 GMT
Who knows. Kids these days use that word as an insult rather than what it's ment to be used for. I think it’s quite easy to find why (some) people would call him a bigot, with a quick search online. I guess depending on the political spectrum, views and mindset of a person, he/she can react to what Ellis said differently. I don’t think the mods want us to discuss it here anyway, since we did once in the twitter thread, and the discussion was shut down. What I’d say is that from what I gathered, he did questionable things in conventions that rubbed the fan the wrong way, regardless of his views, and that this whole situation was caused by him, as he tweeted about DA months ago as if he was part of the project, and spurred fans to ask the devs, Darrah included, about his role. Given that it’s obvious that he didn’t have any role or contact with BioWare for DA4, it’s likely that he did so to promote himself, as he knows how popular the franchise and Cullen are. So what was said exactly?
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 9, 2020 10:20:13 GMT
I think it’s quite easy to find why (some) people would call him a bigot, with a quick search online. I guess depending on the political spectrum, views and mindset of a person, he/she can react to what Ellis said differently. I don’t think the mods want us to discuss it here anyway, since we did once in the twitter thread, and the discussion was shut down. What I’d say is that from what I gathered, he did questionable things in conventions that rubbed the fan the wrong way, regardless of his views, and that this whole situation was caused by him, as he tweeted about DA months ago as if he was part of the project, and spurred fans to ask the devs, Darrah included, about his role. Given that it’s obvious that he didn’t have any role or contact with BioWare for DA4, it’s likely that he did so to promote himself, as he knows how popular the franchise and Cullen are. So what was said exactly? Do you mean what Ellis said that lead people to call him a bigot? As I said, I’m not going to discuss that because the mods don’t want us to discuss politics, and I don’t have the full list anyway. It involves in different degree race, LGBTQ and mysoginy, with the first two relatively recent due to this year’s events. I can link to you what sparked the issue with the devs, in the sense that fans asked them if he was involved in the project, after he tweeted this (I think after the Gamescon Dev diary)
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 10:24:10 GMT
So what was said exactly? Do you mean what Ellis said that lead people to call him a bigot? As I said, I’m not going to discuss that because the mods don’t want us to discuss politics, and I don’t have the full list anyway. It involves in different degree race, LGBTQ and mysoginy, with the first two relatively recent due to this year’s events. I can link to you what sparked the issue with the devs, in the sense that fans asked them if he was involved in the project, after he tweeted this (I think after the Gamescon Dev diary) So in other words, he is an @ss.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 9, 2020 10:39:50 GMT
Do you mean what Ellis said that lead people to call him a bigot? As I said, I’m not going to discuss that because the mods don’t want us to discuss politics, and I don’t have the full list anyway. It involves in different degree race, LGBTQ and mysoginy, with the first two relatively recent due to this year’s events. I can link to you what sparked the issue with the devs, in the sense that fans asked them if he was involved in the project, after he tweeted this (I think after the Gamescon Dev diary) So in other words, he is an @ss. My opinion of him isn’t very high, and as I said, he did questionable stuff that goes beyond what he says/said, but it’s always better to check things for yourself, because you might interpret His words differently. In any case, I always thought it was a moot point, and I said that in the twitter thread already after the Gamescon and his tweet, because I thought Cullen had by default low chances to appear, given his status. Even more so with the new protagonist. In general, the move to the north of Thedas helps in leaving the majority of characters behind (even more so the choices made without ruining them). And unless BioWare wants to ‘go’ after him with a recast (I don’t think they’d kill Cullen off because by tweets and retweets it’s clear they don’t associate the character with the VA), I think this situation makes it definitive that he won’t appear, because they’d draw criticism either way.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 10:57:58 GMT
So in other words, he is an @ss. My opinion of him isn’t very high, and as I said, he did questionable stuff that goes beyond what he says/said, but it’s always better to check things for yourself, because you might interpret His words differently. In any case, I always thought it was a moot point, and I said that in the twitter thread already after the Gamescon and his tweet, because I thought Cullen had by default low chances to happen, given his status. Even more so with the new protagonist. In general, the move to the north of Thedas helps in leaving the majority of characters behind (even more so the choices made without ruining them). And unless BioWare wants to ‘go’ after him with a recast (I don’t think they’d kill Cullen off because by tweets and retweets it’s clear they don’t associate the character with the VA), I think this situation makes it definitive that he won’t appear, because they’d draw criticism either way. I'll take your word for it (too lazy to go check his Twitter posts and because I avoid Twitter). Also, I see the word bigot be used for the smallest offensives (mainly by the Wokers and PCers) that I just roll my eyes at it.
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Post by Serza on Dec 9, 2020 11:07:58 GMT
My opinion of him isn’t very high, and as I said, he did questionable stuff that goes beyond what he says/said, but it’s always better to check things for yourself, because you might interpret His words differently. In any case, I always thought it was a moot point, and I said that in the twitter thread already after the Gamescon and his tweet, because I thought Cullen had by default low chances to happen, given his status. Even more so with the new protagonist. In general, the move to the north of Thedas helps in leaving the majority of characters behind (even more so the choices made without ruining them). And unless BioWare wants to ‘go’ after him with a recast (I don’t think they’d kill Cullen off because by tweets and retweets it’s clear they don’t associate the character with the VA), I think this situation makes it definitive that he won’t appear, because they’d draw criticism either way. I'll take your word for it (too lazy to go check his Twitter posts and because I avoid Twitter). Also, I see the word bigot be used for the smallest offensives (mainly by the Wokers and PCers) that I just roll my eyes at it.
Aye, it is certainly overused in our day and age. And even though that doesn't mean bigots are gone... It does mean that a proof should be required before calling a man such. Or a woman, as the case may be...
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 11:10:13 GMT
I'll take your word for it (too lazy to go check his Twitter posts and because I avoid Twitter). Also, I see the word bigot be used for the smallest offensives (mainly by the Wokers and PCers) that I just roll my eyes at it.
Aye, it is certainly overused in our day and age. And even though that doesn't mean bigots are gone... It does mean that a proof should be required before calling a man such. Or a woman, as the case may be...
That's the flip side to freedom of speech, you can't be the good without the bad. Otherwise it's no longer freedom of speech.
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Post by Serza on Dec 9, 2020 11:44:52 GMT
Aye, it is certainly overused in our day and age. And even though that doesn't mean bigots are gone... It does mean that a proof should be required before calling a man such. Or a woman, as the case may be...
That's the flip side to freedom of speech, you can't be the good without the bad. Otherwise it's no longer freedom of speech.
I could not agree more.
Freedom of Speech is something that can be hard to accept if the freedom to speak is not yours, but it's important that everyone gets it. And while it can make things like slander and insults awkward to deal with, because the offender will always claim they are a part of freedom of speech, it protects us from things far worse.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 9, 2020 12:38:11 GMT
That's the flip side to freedom of speech, you can't be the good without the bad. Otherwise it's no longer freedom of speech.
I could not agree more.
Freedom of Speech is something that can be hard to accept if the freedom to speak is not yours, but it's important that everyone gets it. And while it can make things like slander and insults awkward to deal with, because the offender will always claim they are a part of freedom of speech, it protects us from things far worse.
Freedom of Speech should only be protected until it veers into Hate Speech, which is never productive, called for or served any purpose other than causing harm. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything... otherwise someone else might exercise their gods-given freedom to put their foot up your backside!
Not trying to start a debate on free-speech, just throwing out there that good manners cost nothing and the golden rule exists for a reason.
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Post by Serza on Dec 9, 2020 12:46:34 GMT
I could not agree more.
Freedom of Speech is something that can be hard to accept if the freedom to speak is not yours, but it's important that everyone gets it. And while it can make things like slander and insults awkward to deal with, because the offender will always claim they are a part of freedom of speech, it protects us from things far worse.
Freedom of Speech should only be protected until it veers into Hate Speech, which is never productive, called for or served any purpose other than causing harm. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything... otherwise someone else might exercise their gods-given freedom to put their foot up your backside!
Not trying to start a debate on free-speech, just throwing out there that good manners cost nothing and the golden rule exists for a reason.
Let us then end the conversation on an agreeing note, because that is precisely where we are headed.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 9, 2020 13:06:51 GMT
Let us then end the conversation on an agreeing note, because that is precisely where we are headed.
Well said, and apologies if I was being slightly contentious before.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2020 13:33:23 GMT
Lol, wring your hands about overuse of "bigot" all you like, nevermind that this very forum works wa-hay-haaaaay harder to stop people being called bigots than it does to stop any actual bigotry.
Even if Greg Ellis isn't openly transphobic, homophobic and racist (forgive me if I don't accept the majority straight, white population of this forum as qualifed judges for what is or is not acceptable to say about gay, trans, or black people), he sure does a lot of talking *around* BLM and LGBTQ people, and a cursory google of Greg Ellis brings up his blog, where he writes prolifically on his paranoid, delusional fantasies of marriage and the nuclear family unit being "under attack" because blah blah something insane about "toxic radical feminists" callously stealing children from their fathers and the #metoo movement is a scam boohoo cancel culture etc. So he's definitely at LEAST a dumbass and a sexist asshole.
But putting all that aside (which we shouldn't, these are all huge red flags), his behaviour re: Mark's departure was incredibly unprofessional, and he has been unprofessional BEFORE, like spilling shit about DAI when he was still under an NDA. BioWare had significant grounds for cutting ties with him long before this incident. As far as I can see, the only "Greg Ellis problem" is that BioWare ever hired him in the first place. Luckily, it's an easy fix.
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Post by Serza on Dec 9, 2020 14:03:17 GMT
Lol, wring your hands about overuse of "bigot" all you like, nevermind that this very forum works wa-hay-haaaaay harder to stop people being called bigots than it does to stop any actual bigotry. Even if Greg Ellis isn't openly transphobic, homophobic and racist (forgive me if I don't accept the majority straight, white population of this forum as qualifed judges for what is or is not acceptable to say about gay, trans, or black people), he sure does a lot of talking *around* BLM and LGBTQ people, and a cursory google of Greg Ellis brings up his blog, where he writes prolifically on his paranoid, delusional fantasies of marriage and the nuclear family unit being "under attack" because blah blah something insane about "toxic radical feminists" callously stealing children from their fathers and the #metoo movement is a scam boohoo cancel culture etc. So he's definitely at LEAST a dumbass and a sexist asshole. But putting all that aside (which we shouldn't, these are all huge red flags), his behaviour re: Mark's departure was incredibly unprofessional, and he has been unprofessional BEFORE, like spilling shit about DAI when he was still under an NDA. BioWare had significant grounds for cutting ties with him long before this incident. As far as I can see, the only "Greg Ellis problem" is that BioWare ever hired him in the first place. Luckily, it's an easy fix.
The way you put this portrays him as exactly the opposite extreme. As a matter of fact, it seems like he gives a damn in exactly the wrong ways.
Unprofessional? Aye. Arse? Aye. Bigot? Very possibly.
Then again, I feel like I wouldn't be a "qualified judge" according to you no matter how knowledgeable I am on the matter, so I do not really see a purpose in my continued stay in this thread.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 14:19:15 GMT
Lol, wring your hands about overuse of "bigot" all you like, nevermind that this very forum works wa-hay-haaaaay harder to stop people being called bigots than it does to stop any actual bigotry. Even if Greg Ellis isn't openly transphobic, homophobic and racist (forgive me if I don't accept the majority straight, white population of this forum as qualifed judges for what is or is not acceptable to say about gay, trans, or black people), he sure does a lot of talking *around* BLM and LGBTQ people, and a cursory google of Greg Ellis brings up his blog, where he writes prolifically on his paranoid, delusional fantasies of marriage and the nuclear family unit being "under attack" because blah blah something insane about "toxic radical feminists" callously stealing children from their fathers and the #metoo movement is a scam boohoo cancel culture etc. So he's definitely at LEAST a dumbass and a sexist asshole. But putting all that aside (which we shouldn't, these are all huge red flags), his behaviour re: Mark's departure was incredibly unprofessional, and he has been unprofessional BEFORE, like spilling shit about DAI when he was still under an NDA. BioWare had significant grounds for cutting ties with him long before this incident. As far as I can see, the only "Greg Ellis problem" is that BioWare ever hired him in the first place. Luckily, it's an easy fix.
The way you put this portrays him as exactly the opposite extreme. As a matter of fact, it seems like he gives a damn in exactly the wrong ways.
Unprofessional? Aye. Arse? Aye. Bigot? Very possibly.
Then again, I feel like I wouldn't be a "qualified judge" according to you no matter how knowledgeable I am on the matter, so I do not really see a purpose in my continued stay in this thread.
Sadly, this seems to be the new normal these days.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 9, 2020 14:24:50 GMT
But putting all that aside (which we shouldn't, these are all huge red flags), his behaviour re: Mark's departure was incredibly unprofessional, and he has been unprofessional BEFORE, like spilling shit about DAI when he was still under an NDA. BioWare had significant grounds for cutting ties with him long before this incident. As far as I can see, the only "Greg Ellis problem" is that BioWare ever hired him in the first place. Luckily, it's an easy fix. Anyone remember when it was claimed he couldn't reprise the role of Anders in DA2 due to unspecified "shenanigans" that prevented him from taking on a larger role?
In retrospect, it makes me wonder if it wasn't a scheduling conflict or concern that him voicing two characters (Anders and Cullen), but that there might have been some kind of conflict behind the scenes and they weren't willing to give him the more prominent role of Anders? Obviously Cullen's popularity in the fandom was one of the primary reasons he got brought back again and again, but it makes me wonder if the Bioware devs were less thrilled about that than we were?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2020 14:27:48 GMT
Wither civility?
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