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Post by alanc9 on Dec 20, 2020 18:03:35 GMT
I'd like to retrofit the tone icon system into games with unvoiced protagonists, actually. Irony can't work when all you see is the plain text.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 20, 2020 18:38:51 GMT
Yeah to be fair though I think that wa salways a bit of a trend wit hStar Trek as the asme was rtue wit hS9 too it's firs tseason wa sa bit weak but go tbetter and bette ras the pisodes went on partly I thin kbecause the actors understood thei rcharacters an roles more and the writers learned to write more for those actors so the ycould play to those roles. There's a difference between making a serialized TV show that is annual and a single game that comes out once every 10 years. You don't get to dip your toes once in 10 years and hope it works out. You're irrelevant, between releases and a forgettable title.
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Post by Frost on Dec 20, 2020 18:58:02 GMT
I would like either Shepard (if it makes sense with the story) or a new pc. I am not interested in playing Ryder again.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 20, 2020 18:58:06 GMT
I'd like to retrofit the tone icon system into games with unvoiced protagonists, actually. Irony can't work when all you see is the plain text. TBH I don't think Bioware wil lbe doing any more silent protag games so i tlikel ywon't matter there. DAO is likel ygoin gt obe the last of those from them.
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Post by Polka Dot on Dec 20, 2020 19:27:07 GMT
That also relies on how talented the voice actors and their directors are, as much as the writing.
The icons came in because people kept saying they got "ninja romanced" with characters that they didn't want to romance, because some of the romance dialogue on the wheel was vague and/or unclear as too someone just being nice to someone for sharing a cup of coffee and instead got "I want to have your baby." The icons are there prevent that and people from complaining about it. Now if you have a " " next to text on the wheel and you don't want to romance or flirt with that character you know not to click on that text, and if you do want to romance or flirt with that character then you know. If you still get "ninja romanced" with the icons then you're either: blind or an idiot. Blind you got sympathy. Idiots you get my laughing at you. Ultimately, what people should really just come to terms with is the fact that the introduction of the voiced protagonist necessitated some changes in the way the dialogue system works, especially when those dialogue choices may be coupled with physical actions, like if your character grabs an object while speaking, or touches a characters cheek in a romantic moment. We can’t get this long movie script-like layout where the whole thing is laid out in this big list on the screen, and icons are the most efficient way to convey information with the smallest footprint on your screen’s real estate. I’d be very interested to see anyone attempt to increase that efficiency to any meaningful degree, but I won’t hold my breath. I mean, let’s consider that people have issues distinguishing sarcasm from a flat statement in comments on the internet if you choose not to use a sarcmark. One thing that I kinda wish they'd relent on is the fact that using any of the key words from the actual line spoken in the phrase is verboten. Apparently, they'd done some sort of focus group testing and found that people did not want to hear the same content spoken if it appeared in the UI selection phrase, so they established some rule that the phrase must use entirely different words. Composing those phrases can't be easy - they have pretty strict character limits, and since they can't use any of the key words in the actual line, they often don't do a very good job of conveying what the character will actually say. I'd like to see some improvement there.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 20, 2020 20:37:28 GMT
I'd like to retrofit the tone icon system into games with unvoiced protagonists, actually. Irony can't work when all you see is the plain text. TBH I don't think Bioware wil lbe doing any more silent protag games so i tlikel ywon't matter there. DAO is likel ygoin gt obe the last of those from them. I was thinking more of other devs. AFAIK the BG3 PC will stay silent.
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Post by jpcab on Dec 21, 2020 1:54:45 GMT
Andromeda is over. Characters were not appelative to the majority of players. Its over. Do you have access to a good sample survey that the majority of players agreed to and not just the people that post online? Otherwise you don't know that because only a fragment of the people that deal with games post anything online. Its the other way around my friend, I think forum posts or posters are not representative of the majority, if so Riley and andromeda would have a chance as you can see by this thread and forum. Ryder is over believe me.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 21, 2020 3:49:41 GMT
Do you have access to a good sample survey that the majority of players agreed to and not just the people that post online? Otherwise you don't know that because only a fragment of the people that deal with games post anything online. Its the other way around my friend, I think forum posts or posters are not representative of the majority, if so Riley and andromeda would have a chance as you can see by this thread and forum. Ryder is over believe me. Then you agree with me. We have no idea how the community at large feels about the characters because the majority aren't posting how they feel about the characters.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 21, 2020 8:59:26 GMT
Then you agree with me. We have no idea how the community at large feels about the characters because the majority aren't posting how they feel about the characters. I think we do. We've got a bump from the trailer recently, but as far as Andromeda goes, it got a fast and low drop, unlike ME2, which didn't hit its peak until after release day, or ME3 which hit hard out the gate and tanked for ... reasons. It's safe to say people became disengaged with the franchise, after Andromeda.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 21, 2020 15:43:51 GMT
Then you agree with me. We have no idea how the community at large feels about the characters because the majority aren't posting how they feel about the characters. I think we do. We've got a bump from the trailer recently, but as far as Andromeda goes, it got a fast and low drop, unlike ME2, which didn't hit its peak until after re release day, or ME3 which hit hard out the gate and tanked for ... reasons. It's safe to say people became disengaged with the franchise, after Andromeda. What is interesting to me in that is really soon after MEA released interest in ME dropped to below any point after ME2 only in the gap between ME1 and 2 did it get that low. The time gap between ME2 and 3 was not that large so interest remained high. ME3 had solid MP which increased longevity and as much of a dud as the endings were, the EC helped within the fanbase significantly from my recollections and the hope/interest of what was to come in the next game was still strong.
The why interest tanked so hard after MEA I am not sure of. It could be the interest is just that low. Or it could be seen more as a new franchise effectively,so it as a similar interest level to post ME1, though it did have a much higher interest at its release date than ME1 so the drop off was much more severe. That being said if that chart has any real meaning, it does look like MEA killed the franchise. But I don't work in this field so I have no idea how much buzz matters.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 21, 2020 16:27:26 GMT
What is interesting to me in that is really soon after MEA released interest in ME dropped to below any point after ME2 only in the gap between ME1 and 2 did it get that low. The time gap between ME2 and 3 was not that large so interest remained high. ME3 had solid MP which increased longevity and as much of a dud as the endings were, the EC helped within the fanbase significantly from my recollections and the hope/interest of what was to come in the next game was still strong.
The why interest tanked so hard after MEA I am not sure of. It could be the interest is just that low. Or it could be seen more as a new franchise effectively,so it as a similar interest level to post ME1, though it did have a much higher interest at its release date than ME1 so the drop off was much more severe. That being said if that chart has any real meaning, it does look like MEA killed the franchise. But I don't work in this field so I have no idea how much buzz matters. It's not Andromeda that killed ME. Unfortunately, what we are seeing is the lack of engagement from ME, because of what came before Andromeda. ME3 did that. What engagement we saw was from, of course, the MP, which was undoubtedly successful, but also the hope of what could come next. Andromeda did not address what that part of the fanbase wanted. And apparently, that part of the fanbase was significant. Currently, we are getting slightly revived, because of the LE and especially the next ME reveal. We are currently trending toward ME1-ME2 levels of interest. And that is not because of the normies believing we are getting MEA2. I think when Bioware comes out and shows the real premise of the next ME, then is when things will heat up a lot. And not in a positive manner.
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Post by jrpN7 on Dec 21, 2020 23:03:34 GMT
I voted No. Shepard's story and that of his/her companions is over and frankly, returning characters rarely go well in BioWare games. I'd argue with you on that. Shepard's continuous story was gold for most people. Picking right up where it left off. Immediate immersion. Many people dislike Dragon Age precisely because a new protagonist is handed to us every game- it ruins the immersion with story breaks... All these separate stories to keep track of- it's a headache. I can't think of a single instance throughout all the ME trilogy games where any returning character caused a ruckus. Except maybe Jacob because he was deemed boring, but that was hardly a larger issue to anyone. Andromeda on the other hand, was 100% new and how'd that go? The only interesting/beautiful part for many people was Liara's recordings. A returning character. this nonsensical bullshit that Andromeda’s writing is less realistic is just laughable. Sorry if the truth hurts. What are you playing at? Everyone out there, in all the reviews of Andromeda, have a segment at some point addressing the horrible writing. An in depth analysis from a professional dev puts it in the form of bathos. "tl;dr version of it if you don’t want to read his review is that there’s several scenes where your character is supposed to be in serious mortal danger and the side characters and main characters are chuckling it up." The game constantly is like, "ohmygosh no this thing just happened....and now you have to deal with it. And the characters just don't seem to care. Don't even get me started on the numerous cheesy one liners. Sorry but Andromeda is not good writing. Fact. I'm truly sorry for you if you cannot see that. I'm happy you managed to enjoy the game, but don't try for a moment to pass Andromeda's writing as on par with the trilogy. That is what's laughable.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 21, 2020 23:08:42 GMT
That was a pretty lame piece, actually. He doesn't have any metric for distinguishing good and bad bathos beyond whether he personally liked the usage.
As for ME, the question is how long you can keep it up, at any feasible level of zot expenditure. I'd say that ME3 was at the limit already. Plenty of people were unhappy with how little screen time their fave ME2 character got (this is on the ME2 devs for dropping an impossible problem on the next game, as they've acknowledged themselves). And now we've got another game's worth of choices on top of that, plus three more squadmates. (Well, two if they canonize Destroy.)
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Post by jrpN7 on Dec 21, 2020 23:15:09 GMT
That was a pretty lame piece, actually. He doesn't have any metric for distinguishing good and bad bathos beyond whether he personally liked the usage. It was obviously a very simplified piece taking a brief swipe at Andromeda but it is sound. No way would a complex article about bathos appeal to anyone desperately trying to defend Andromeda's writing... and is why I suspect you found it lame.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 21, 2020 23:32:42 GMT
Didn't work for me. Likely because I like the things he talked about more than he did. But whatever; if you liked the piece, I'm certainly not invested in trying to talk you out of that. Waste of time for both of us.
Back to ME3; liking the MET doesn't imply that it should be extended indefinitely, does it? (We had this debate back when BG2-ToB released, and the answer was no -- although some folks are trying to revive it as a way to hate on BG3.)
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Post by ahglock on Dec 22, 2020 0:07:21 GMT
Didn't work for me. Likely because I like the things he talked about more than he did. But whatever; if you liked the piece, I'm certainly not invested in trying to talk you out of that. Waste of time for both of us. Back to ME3; liking the MET doesn't imply that it should be extended indefinitely, does it? (We had this debate back when BG2-ToB released, and the answer was no -- although some folks are trying to revive it as a way to hate on BG3.) Same for MEA, someone liking MEA doesn't imply it should be extended.
What they should go with is what they think will sell more.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 22, 2020 0:10:36 GMT
I voted No. Shepard's story and that of his/her companions is over and frankly, returning characters rarely go well in BioWare games. I'd argue with you on that. Shepard's continuous story was gold for most people. Picking right up where it left off. Immediate immersion. Many people dislike Dragon Age precisely because a new protagonist is handed to us every game- it ruins the immersion with story breaks... All these separate stories to keep track of- it's a headache. I can't think of a single instance throughout all the ME trilogy games where any returning character caused a ruckus. Except maybe Jacob because he was deemed boring, but that was hardly a larger issue to anyone. Andromeda on the other hand, was 100% new and how'd that go? The only interesting/beautiful part for many people was Liara's recordings. A returning character. The trilogy's story indeed worked quite well for Shepard being the protagonist of all three parts, with the slight hiccup at the beginning of ME2 where they had to pull this entire death and resurrection via Cerberus nonsense to explain why Shepard is level 1 again, down from nearly level 60 at the end of ME1. The trilogy had an overarching plot, and it ended with ME3. The trilogy essentially acted like one game split into 3 episodes since each sequel neatly picks up where the previous part left off. I wrote that particular sentence under the impression of Dragon Age's returning characters, like Varric being in DA2 and DAI and it just not being the same. Andromeda's problem isn't that it was completely new, I think, its problem is that at least a part of the writing team changed and intentionally went for a different tone in writing, the result being that cheerful obliviousness that made it so hard for me to connect with Goofball Ryder and the Bland Brigade. If Shepard were to return in the next game but would be written by the same team that wrote Andromeda and Anthem, you might get someone who is named Shepard but talks like Ryder. For that reason I would prefer existing characters to be left alone.
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Post by jrpN7 on Dec 22, 2020 0:23:32 GMT
Andromeda's problem isn't that it was completely new, I think, its problem is that at least a part of the writing team changed and intentionally went for a different tone in writing, the result being that cheerful obliviousness that made it so hard for me to connect with Goofball Ryder and the Bland Brigade. If Shepard were to return in the next game but would be written by the same team that wrote Andromeda and Anthem, you might get someone who is named Shepard but talks like Ryder. For that reason I would prefer existing characters to be left alone. That's actually a really good point. I would be mortified to see Shepard in the hands of those people who wrote the Andromeda crew/story. *shudder* It'd be like Shepard had a stroke or hit his head hard enough and started acting like a high schooler. At this point I'm unsure if BioWare, even with the staff changes/re-signing old faces, could really capture Shepard and his crew in the same way they once did.
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Post by Polka Dot on Dec 22, 2020 0:33:45 GMT
What they should go with is what they think will sell more. Going with something that inspires them might turn out better all the way 'round. At this point I'm unsure if BioWare, even with the staff changes/re-signing old faces, could really capture Shepard and his crew in the same way they once did. And this is one of the reasons why you can't go home. Regardless of who handles Shep, they'll look different and be doing different things in different situations on a different engine and probably with different gameplay. Be careful what you ask for...
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Post by ahglock on Dec 22, 2020 0:38:37 GMT
What they should go with is what they think will sell more. Going with something that inspires them might turn out better all the way 'round. A different developer maybe, them nope? They should Michael bay it and go with explosions and make what they think will sell. That they might be able to pull off at least.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 22, 2020 2:38:32 GMT
On a related topic, what if the writers themselves think that Shepard's story is over? Even if he's more marketable, how do you write something you don't believe in, and do it well?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 22, 2020 3:15:21 GMT
On a related topic, what if the writers themselves think that Shepard's story is over? Even if he's more marketable, how do you write something you don't believe in, and do it well? You do your job. And if you don't believe you can do it, you quit, like Mark and Casey and let someone else who can do it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 22, 2020 3:19:47 GMT
And this is one of the reasons why you can't go home. Regardless of who handles Shep, they'll look different and be doing different things in different situations on a different engine and probably with different gameplay. Be careful what you ask for... And if the writers are that bad, that they can't even emulate the old style, a glib facsimile of what use to be, then there is no hope of Ryder's return being good or anyone new being good. And if it's bad, at least it will be Citadel levels of bad, for Shepard and co. For anyone else? It will be a roast.
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Post by Tonymac on Dec 22, 2020 15:36:24 GMT
And this is one of the reasons why you can't go home. Regardless of who handles Shep, they'll look different and be doing different things in different situations on a different engine and probably with different gameplay. Be careful what you ask for... And if the writers are that bad, that they can't even emulate the old style, a glib facsimile of what use to be, then there is no hope of Ryder's return being good or anyone new being good. And if it's bad, at least it will be Citadel levels of bad, for Shepard and co. For anyone else? It will be a roast. BioWare has been hemorrhaging talent since ME2 wrapped up. ME3 cut a lot of ties with the community. Proof of those factors panned out with ME:A sales - not to mention BioWare pulling support for it. Let's be honest, the game was not received well in terms of total game sales and profits. We can argue if it was good or bad in terms of game play and story - only the bottom line matters. BioWare took a huge punch to the face with ME3's endings. To say that they got a black eye is an understatement - in many peoples eyes BioWare died that day. Further proof of the company's downturn lies in the Anthem sales and purported support. Like Andromeda, that game spent years in development... much to the chagrin of BioWare. Even EA Game Changers could not buoy up sales for it. The fact that EA threw in that support is further proof that they understood how bad the game (ergo the company) really is. I am in that group that will never again simply buy another BioWare game based on faith alone. I grant BioWare no leniency after ME3 and those endings, and the middle finger extended in my face with the phrase "Artistic Integrity". I saw the EC as them realizing that they left a lot of business unfinished. For me, a slide-show did not cut it. I think that the company understands this. They have been quietly polling and surveying gamers (not just the old BSN and the unofficial BSNers, but as large a sample group as they can) to see what said gamers want. The reflection of all of this is that ambiguous game trailer. The devs have been pretty enigmatic about it as well. I think that the whole thing was a PR move - you throw out a trailer and see which way the winds are blowing. Sadly, this means that they are rudderless. With "Mr. Artistic Integrity" gone, BioWare can choose a path forward - but do they know which way to go? Trying to catch all of the games they were juggling will result in everything falling down, in my opinion. Ryder is not an N7 - nor will they ever be. Anthem is as dead as fried chicken. Given the writers that BioWare has, even I am not sure which direction they should go - and I thought I knew everything. To me, "Mass Effect" is the original game. I love the Mako, the guns, armors, planets, maps, companions - all of it. There was a dream in there that was so tangible and so beautiful, even for its old graphics. Part of my soul will always be on the Citadel, looking out over the ward arms and watching the Destiny Ascension glide by. What a glorious and beautiful dream it would be to live there. Let us hope that BioWare can bring back the Magic. I will watch from a distance. Part of me says redo ME3 or the ending(s) - but I also see that going forwards would be difficult with CDR Shepard.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 22, 2020 16:01:19 GMT
Tonymac My interest in Bioware is very specific, limited and intense. Anything outside of that and I'm done. And I'm done with Bioware for this entire console gen. I'm not buying DA, I'm not buying their next new IP and I'm not buying this ME, as it is shaping up to be. I am only interested in a very different ME than the one their are trying to sell people here. And you can see it from normies' expectations and discussion, there will be a lot of disappointment when Bioware announces that game to them.
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