correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Dr Obfuscate
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correctamundo
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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correctamundo
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 27, 2020 9:59:21 GMT
I have to admit that BioWare making synthesis canon would be amusing.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 27, 2020 11:02:45 GMT
I have to admit that BioWare making synthesis canon would be amusing. Andromeda should stay out of the Milky Way, then.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
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No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 27, 2020 11:13:19 GMT
The endings remind me... Destroy:
Synthesis:
Control:
I hope it doesn't lead to this ending in the Legendary Edition:
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Dec 27, 2020 11:48:58 GMT
For as long as ME1 has been out, the end goal of the trilogy has always been to conclusively stop the Reapers.
Considering they are entities who routinely undertake a galaxy-wide culling of all spacefaring life, the most viable option has always been to find a way to destroy them, and the only hope we had was to unite as a galaxy, just to have a chance at standing up to them.
For ME1-2, this has been the case, always. Only in ME3 did we get alternatives, both of them associated with people who have been mentally subjugated by the Reapers themselves, which is more than enough to cast reasonable doubt on their validity.
Synthesis, in particular, requires a whole lot of Insane Troll Logic and/or Suspension of Disbelief to function properly, as its very notion and implementation violate so many laws of nature and science that I struggle to find the words for it. Not to mention the ethical and moral implications of imposing a way of existence on the entire galactic community, including all the many people and species who might have been unaware of such a possibility in the first place.
And frankly, let's take a moment to consider the Reapers' condition. Each and every one of them is an unholy amalgam of an entire species, decomposed into the physical (and probably mental, as well) building blocks of entities whose minds are thoroughly conditioned to obey a single directive, and whose technology strips a person of their free will and of their physical integrity - look at the Scions or the Praetorians, or the Brutes, each of them an amalgam of more than one living being.
Synthesis is not a panacea. It is merely another enforced directive, another imposition upon the galaxy.
Destroy is the best path to a future where the galaxy is able to decide its own future, to choose its own path forward.
As for the death of EDI and the geth? A stopgap measure by the writers, to give the other options a chance. One I wouldn't be surprised to see retconned for this coming game.
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urkibalurki
N2
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Post by urkibalurki on Dec 27, 2020 12:09:08 GMT
Regardless of all this arguing about these three endings, who said they're canonizing anything? I'm quoting what they wrote on the ME official site about ME Legendary Edition: "Our goal was not to remake or reimagine the original games, but to modernize the experience so that fans and new players can experience the original work in its best possible form.". No one talked about remaking the endings; they just mean to remaster the old trilogy in 4K+HDR+blahblahblah. So, what's the point of arguing for 4 pages about nothingness? ME Legendary Edition will be the same as the old trilogy, only with better graphics; that's all.
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Dec 27, 2020 12:14:25 GMT
Regardless of all this arguing about these three endings, who said they're canonizing anything? I'm quoting what they wrote on the ME official site about ME Legendary Edition: "Our goal was not to remake or reimagine the original games, but to modernize the experience so that fans and new players can experience the original work in its best possible form.". No one talked about remaking the endings; they just mean to remaster the old trilogy in 4K+HDR+blahblahblah. So, what's the point of arguing for 4 pages about nothingness? ME Legendary Edition will be the same as the old trilogy, only with better graphics; that's all. The LE is mostly irrelevant regarding the ending canonization. It's mostly about the new ME.
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Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Dec 27, 2020 12:17:37 GMT
Regardless of all this arguing about these three endings, who said they're canonizing anything? I'm quoting what they wrote on the ME official site about ME Legendary Edition: "Our goal was not to remake or reimagine the original games, but to modernize the experience so that fans and new players can experience the original work in its best possible form.". No one talked about remaking the endings; they just mean to remaster the old trilogy in 4K+HDR+blahblahblah. So, what's the point of arguing for 4 pages about nothingness? ME Legendary Edition will be the same as the old trilogy, only with better graphics; that's all. Yep. The LE will be graphics only. ME5 however, is where the speculation lives.
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Post by dazk on Dec 27, 2020 12:22:52 GMT
For as long as ME1 has been out, the end goal of the trilogy has always been to conclusively stop the Reapers. Considering they are entities who routinely undertake a galaxy-wide culling of all spacefaring life, the most viable option has always been to find a way to destroy them, and the only hope we had was to unite as a galaxy, just to have a chance at standing up to them. For ME1-2, this has been the case, always. Only in ME3 did we get alternatives, both of them associated with people who have been mentally subjugated by the Reapers themselves, which is more than enough to cast reasonable doubt on their validity. Synthesis, in particular, requires a whole lot of Insane Troll Logic and/or Suspension of Disbelief to function properly, as its very notion and implementation violate so many laws of nature and science that I struggle to find the words for it. Not to mention the ethical and moral implications of imposing a way of existence on the entire galactic community, including all the many people and species who might have been unaware of such a possibility in the first place. And frankly, let's take a moment to consider the Reapers' condition. Each and every one of them is an unholy amalgam of an entire species, decomposed into the physical (and probably mental, as well) building blocks of entities whose minds are thoroughly conditioned to obey a single directive, and whose technology strips a person of their free will and of their physical integrity - look at the Scions or the Praetorians, or the Brutes, each of them an amalgam of more than one living being. Synthesis is not a panacea. It is merely another enforced directive, another imposition upon the galaxy. Destroy is the best path to a future where the galaxy is able to decide its own future, to choose its own path forward. As for the death of EDI and the geth? A stopgap measure by the writers, to give the other options a chance. One I wouldn't be surprised to see retconned for this coming game. So well said.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 27, 2020 12:35:19 GMT
For as long as ME1 has been out, the end goal of the trilogy has always been to conclusively stop the Reapers. Considering they are entities who routinely undertake a galaxy-wide culling of all spacefaring life, the most viable option has always been to find a way to destroy them, and the only hope we had was to unite as a galaxy, just to have a chance at standing up to them. For ME1-2, this has been the case, always. Only in ME3 did we get alternatives, both of them associated with people who have been mentally subjugated by the Reapers themselves, which is more than enough to cast reasonable doubt on their validity. Synthesis, in particular, requires a whole lot of Insane Troll Logic and/or Suspension of Disbelief to function properly, as its very notion and implementation violate so many laws of nature and science that I struggle to find the words for it. Not to mention the ethical and moral implications of imposing a way of existence on the entire galactic community, including all the many people and species who might have been unaware of such a possibility in the first place. And frankly, let's take a moment to consider the Reapers' condition. Each and every one of them is an unholy amalgam of an entire species, decomposed into the physical (and probably mental, as well) building blocks of entities whose minds are thoroughly conditioned to obey a single directive, and whose technology strips a person of their free will and of their physical integrity - look at the Scions or the Praetorians, or the Brutes, each of them an amalgam of more than one living being. Synthesis is not a panacea. It is merely another enforced directive, another imposition upon the galaxy. Destroy is the best path to a future where the galaxy is able to decide its own future, to choose its own path forward. As for the death of EDI and the geth? A stopgap measure by the writers, to give the other options a chance. One I wouldn't be surprised to see retconned for this coming game. If we're going to start pulling on the "scientifically and ethically sound" thread, the entire trilogy is just going to unravel completely, so I don't consider that an argument for one ending being more viable than any other. Just blatantly undoing things they previously established is ALSO bad writing. If they're gonna pull crap like that, they might as well have ME4/5/Whatever-the-fuck start with Shepard leaping up in bed and saying aloud "Oh thank god, it was all just a terrible dream! Lucky for me, the Reaper war is still ongoing with absolutely no end in sight!". It wouldn't be any less hacky and stupid than any possible excuse they could come up with for getting to keep EDI and the Geth after a Destroy ending. Serious question: is anyone in here actually reading back to themselves the things they're suggesting for the next ME and going "oh yeah, that would be a sound authorial decision and a sign of quality writing"?
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Post by themikefest on Dec 27, 2020 12:58:35 GMT
Let me tell you about Joe Smoe. He had a good life. Married with 4 kids with his high school sweetheart. He had a good job working at a company called EA. As he walk's outside, he sees his neighbors looking up. He looks up to see black dots coming out of the sky. These dots turn into giant looking something. Before he could comprehend what was going on, a bright red light appears destroying homes and land. He runs for cover. As he turns around, he sees his house destroyed. He cries out in pain knowing his family is gone. A moment later he's hit with a piece of shrapnel. He awakens a short time later to a voice crying out for help. It sounds like Mary Sue. He heads to where the voice is, but encounters ugly looking things. He grabs a pipe just in case. He ends up smashing the crap out of couple of the uglies to save Mary Sue.
He looks arounds to see a few of his neighbors looking for their loved ones. He looks towards the east to see the giant looking ships firing their red beam into the city destroying everything. Why? A moment later he sees an Alliance vehicle pull up looking for volunteers to deal with the ugly looking things and the giant looking ships or maybe they're robots. He volunteers to help. He wants revenge. He will destroy the things. He has no interest in controlling them or turning green. He wants them gone, dead, destroyed.
That is one of many reasons why my Shepard chooses destroy. When thing talks about each choice, there is no vision showing Shepard what to do. With no vision, my Shepard doesn't know what to do. Does he/she add a drop or two of blood to the beam? How about a strand of hair? Why not spit in the beam? What about taking a leak or dump in the beam? Since she/he has a weapon in her right hand, she/he assumes thing wants Shepard to shoot the tube. Ok. My Shepard can do that.
As I've said many times before, the game already told the player what the ending would be. I call it Hacketts ending. After the coup, Hackett says there's enough energy to destroy the reapers. After Shepard passes out, and the arms to the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red beam destroying the reapers. What about thing? Simple. When Shepard is visited by Hackett in the hospital, she/he tells him he/she never encounter this intelligence Leviathan mentioned. That will be Shepard's mission. To find this intelligence and destroy it.
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
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Posts: 948 Likes: 2,611
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Dec 27, 2020 13:20:15 GMT
Just blatantly undoing things they previously established is ALSO bad writing. If they're gonna pull crap like that, they might as well have ME4/5/Whatever-the-fuck start with Shepard leaping up in bed and going "Oh thank god, it was all just a terrible dream!". It wouldn't be any less hacky and stupid than any other excuse for getting to keep EDI and the Geth after a Destroy ending. So they may pool some elements from all endings together, one more than the others. Just like Deus Ex, a long time ago. In my case? All I've suggested was what I wrote about Deus Ex style. Might not be the best idea, but it's a fix for the horrid idea of having all AIs die in Destroy just to make the other endings equally appealing.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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correctamundo
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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correctamundo
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correctamundo1
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They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 27, 2020 14:18:03 GMT
I have to admit that BioWare making synthesis canon would be amusing. Andromeda should stay out of the Milky Way, then. No shit sherlock. For the next 4 billion years.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 27, 2020 14:31:58 GMT
No shit sherlock. For the next 4 billion years. With that in mind, then, ME5 is already off to a bad start.
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urkibalurki
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by urkibalurki on Dec 27, 2020 14:45:30 GMT
Regardless of all this arguing about these three endings, who said they're canonizing anything? I'm quoting what they wrote on the ME official site about ME Legendary Edition: "Our goal was not to remake or reimagine the original games, but to modernize the experience so that fans and new players can experience the original work in its best possible form.". No one talked about remaking the endings; they just mean to remaster the old trilogy in 4K+HDR+blahblahblah. So, what's the point of arguing for 4 pages about nothingness? ME Legendary Edition will be the same as the old trilogy, only with better graphics; that's all. The LE is mostly irrelevant regarding the ending canonization. It's mostly about the new ME. Yep. The LE will be graphics only. ME5 however, is where the speculation lives. This thread is about LE, though. Other threads are about speculation on the new ME. After seeing that trailer, I'm convinced that the next ME will be a prequel ( ), about First Contact war or something like this. (No, it won't be a 5, because a 4 was never born.) What I mean is that people here are speculating about a canonization guys at Bioware never talked about, and if I'm not mistaken it will be irrelevant.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2020 14:50:46 GMT
The LE is mostly irrelevant regarding the ending canonization. It's mostly about the new ME. Yep. The LE will be graphics only. ME5 however, is where the speculation lives. This thread is about LE, though. Other threads are about speculation on the new ME. After seeing that trailer, I'm convinced that the next ME will be a prequel ( ), about First Contact war or something like this. (No, it won't be a 5, because a 4 was never born.) What I mean is that people here are speculating about a canonization guys at Bioware never talked about, and if I'm not mistaken it will be irrelevant. No it’s not. This section of the forums is about the LE and future ME games. And the OP never mentions the LE.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 27, 2020 15:33:32 GMT
The LE is mostly irrelevant regarding the ending canonization. It's mostly about the new ME. Yep. The LE will be graphics only. ME5 however, is where the speculation lives. This thread is about LE, though. Other threads are about speculation on the new ME. After seeing that trailer, I'm convinced that the next ME will be a prequel ( ), about First Contact war or something like this. (No, it won't be a 5, because a 4 was never born.) What I mean is that people here are speculating about a canonization guys at Bioware never talked about, and if I'm not mistaken it will be irrelevant. Huh? How on Earth did you see that trailer and come away thinking "prequel"?
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Spectr61
N3
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Origin: Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Dec 27, 2020 15:35:33 GMT
This thread is about LE, though. Other threads are about speculation on the new ME. After seeing that trailer, I'm convinced that the next ME will be a prequel ( ), about First Contact war or something like this. (No, it won't be a 5, because a 4 was never born.) What I mean is that people here are speculating about a canonization guys at Bioware never talked about, and if I'm not mistaken it will be irrelevant. No it’s not. This section of the forums is about the LE and future ME games. And the OP never mentions the LE. Hey balturkey, this. Don’t quite see a “LE only” in this thread title. 5 could indeed be a prequel, though personally I hope not. As far as if it is 5, or ME Next, or MEA.2, etc, I don’t give two shits. The point is to communicate content addressing the next installment in the ME spectrum, and 5 does that as well as any until there is an official name. I doubt it will be officially called ME5 in the end, but until then..
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Post by ahglock on Dec 27, 2020 15:42:50 GMT
I can’t stand people who call synthesis rape. That’s a serious issue, whereas synthesis simply Cures disease and does next to nothing to your body and literally nothing to your mind. It’s absolutely disgusting. People playing on others trauma and serious experience to try to seem more credible. It rewrites all life and AI into something it wasn't, it removes all free will, turning everyone into some creepy work together hive mind. Call it what you want but the slides show it. There is 0 possibility of that level of peace without a total mental subjugation of everyone. It is absolutely disgusting to push this as a positive while letting two genocidal groups off the hook entirely.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 27, 2020 15:48:31 GMT
Just blatantly undoing things they previously established is ALSO bad writing. If they're gonna pull crap like that, they might as well have ME4/5/Whatever-the-fuck start with Shepard leaping up in bed and going "Oh thank god, it was all just a terrible dream!". It wouldn't be any less hacky and stupid than any other excuse for getting to keep EDI and the Geth after a Destroy ending. So they may pool some elements from all endings together, one more than the others. Just like Deus Ex, a long time ago. Did the TES games do it first? I liked the approach better there, since mystical b.s. is baked into the setting.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 27, 2020 15:50:44 GMT
I can’t stand people who call synthesis rape. That’s a serious issue, whereas synthesis simply Cures disease and does next to nothing to your body and literally nothing to your mind. It’s absolutely disgusting. People playing on others trauma and serious experience to try to seem more credible. It rewrites all life and AI into something it wasn't, it removes all free will, turning everyone into some creepy work together hive mind. Call it what you want but the slides show it. There is 0 possibility of that level of peace without a total mental subjugation of everyone. It is absolutely disgusting to push this as a positive while letting two genocidal groups off the hook entirely. Huh? The only difference I see as farcas peace goes is that Wreav is now smarter and won't launch an idiotic war.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Dec 27, 2020 16:30:42 GMT
It rewrites all life and AI into something it wasn't, it removes all free will, turning everyone into some creepy work together hive mind. Call it what you want but the slides show it. There is 0 possibility of that level of peace without a total mental subjugation of everyone. It is absolutely disgusting to push this as a positive while letting two genocidal groups off the hook entirely. Huh? The only difference I see as farcas peace goes is that Wreav is now smarter and won't launch an idiotic war. What are the quarians doing, what are the Geth doing. Not just the war but why aren't the Krogans just killing people. Does destroy give you peace across the entire galaxy. It creates peace as an aspiration to work towards as we were stronger together. Synthesis just poofs you into peace. That only exists with mind control. Smart people can be evil dicks too, so gaining knowledge and intelligence doesn't lead to peace. Only full on subjugation does.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 27, 2020 17:00:13 GMT
I mean, this is really just a given though. It’s impossible to account for all endings, and the setting needs to be set in such a way that it’s viable for a new story to take place. After the Andromeda debacle, it’s clear now that BioWare has just decided to bite the bullet on this one and take a more direct approach to how to move forward. I fully expect to be totally wrong about this, but I have a feeling that the Legendary Edition might play a role in this attempt to move forward. Last things first: I think there's a tiny chance the Remaster may grant us an option to export an old savegame to ME5. Maybe. It's a tiny chance, nothing more.
Andromeda didn't fail because of a different setting other than the Milky Way. In fact, Andromeda could have worked if the team had put more emphasis on well written characters and an interesting, dangerous villain. I accepted Shepard's story was told and unless someone is going to write a decent continuation fanfic, no one will ever touch Shepard again anymore. And I doubt ME5 will have anything to do with Shep'n'Co too, except the long-living members of his/her crew, like Liara. I wasn't disappointed from Andromeda due the lack of Shepard, but the lack of any interesting character and even the storyline didn't do the trick for me.
I can't say a "canon destruction ending" will ruin ME5 for me - since my playthroughs always end with "Destruction". However, I can feel with the fans who picked another ending by pondering how I'd feel if Bioware sets up a canon LI. Dunno if Bioware is full aware the ol' fans of the series are still around and expect their decisions to be respected in the next Mass Effect - and I can remember all the fights over certain LIs all too good.
Something like the DA Keep would be the simplest solution to work across generations and platforms. Guess we’ll have to wait and find out if they even bother to have any kind of variations in the game based on prior choices. I’ll always maintain that Andromeda’s failure was never its departure from the original setting and characters, but rather that not enough effort was put into creating a meaningfully new experience to intrigue its audience, as well as squandering its premise. The distinctly low enthusiasm in its character writing and plotting can be felt on every level of the game, even in its exploration, which in itself I think exacerbated that issue. At this point, I’ll take what I can get in terms of any Mass Effect, but the ending canonization was always something I was also concerned with, and why I always advocated in just moving away. It’s just that they got the wrong people to assemble that product.
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Sondergaard
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Post by Sondergaard on Dec 27, 2020 17:29:47 GMT
I’ll always maintain that Andromeda’s failure was never its departure from the original setting and characters, but rather that not enough effort was put into creating a meaningfully new experience to intrigue its audience, as well as squandering its premise. The distinctly low enthusiasm in its character writing and plotting can be felt on every level of the game, even in its exploration, which in itself I think exacerbated that issue. At this point, I’ll take what I can get in terms of any Mass Effect, but the ending canonization was always something I was also concerned with, and why I always advocated in just moving away. It’s just that they got the wrong people to assemble that product. I was getting sick of being told I disliked Andromeda because I didn't get to play as Shep rather than the actual reason which was, as you've said, poor premise, characters and story.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Dec 27, 2020 18:13:39 GMT
I’ll always maintain that Andromeda’s failure was never its departure from the original setting and characters, but rather that not enough effort was put into creating a meaningfully new experience to intrigue its audience, as well as squandering its premise. The distinctly low enthusiasm in its character writing and plotting can be felt on every level of the game, even in its exploration, which in itself I think exacerbated that issue. At this point, I’ll take what I can get in terms of any Mass Effect, but the ending canonization was always something I was also concerned with, and why I always advocated in just moving away. It’s just that they got the wrong people to assemble that product. I was getting sick of being told I disliked Andromeda because I didn't get to play as Shep rather than the actual reason which was, as you've said, poor premise, characters and story. I bought in entirely to the basic idea of going to another galaxy. Got the super fancy RC edition MEA. But they screwed up on core elements of character and story design for me and the promised exploration did not feel like exploration.
The story was fairly basic which on its own would be survivable, though I think two core story decisions were bad 1. The idea to have the nexus show up first and by a large amount was a bad one, if the hyperion had shown up on its own and it was early by X amount of time and the story was about you struggling without your expected support structures it would have felt more like exploration and would have been far more compelling. And 2. This being a refuge story form the get go instead of a colonist story would create a totally different and superior atmosphere when you encounter aliens who may not want you to be there.
And the characters just were total duds for me and that is where bioware usually shines. Though I will say I have always preferred the mass effect characters to the DA ones so maybe it should have been expected for me.
I still think they can MEA work, as at its core of being in another galaxy works. But it needs some big changes at this point.
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urkibalurki
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Post by urkibalurki on Dec 27, 2020 19:00:19 GMT
No it’s not. This section of the forums is about the LE and future ME games. And the OP never mentions the LE. This SECTION. Not this THREAD. If I'm not mistaken, the OP opened it just to complain about "canonizing" a particular ending, and that could only be done by rewriting something in LE; as I noted before people at Bioware have no such intent. Huh? How on Earth did you see that trailer and come away thinking "prequel"? It starts too early in human history line, so it make me think about a prequel. And no, I'm not hoping for a prequel. I'd rather want a totally independent story in ME universe, or at least an Andromeda sequel: there are too many loose ends that need closure. A sequel to the trilogy can't be done, because of ME3's endings.
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