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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 27, 2020 19:12:01 GMT
This SECTION. Not this THREAD. If I'm not mistaken, the OP opened it just to complain about "canonizing" a particular ending, and that could only be done by rewriting something in LE; as I noted before people at Bioware have no such intent. I think the OP refers to the fact that Bioware seems to be taking a canon approach to the Destroy ending, if the NME trailer is anything to go by.
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Post by Carcharoth on Dec 27, 2020 19:16:23 GMT
I can’t stand people who call synthesis rape. That’s a serious issue, whereas synthesis simply Cures disease and does next to nothing to your body and literally nothing to your mind. It’s absolutely disgusting. People playing on others trauma and serious experience to try to seem more credible. Point out where anyone called synthesis rape in this thread. And while you're at it, provide some evidence that it doesn't drastically physically and mentally alter you when the ending itself indicates that it does. You don't achieve galactic peace without mind control. The issue with that is there is harm. Even if the survivors find a way to revive the Geth (which goes against the point of ME as the Geth are unique beings not just data that can be restored); Shepard agreed to commit genocide not knowing they could come back. It makes him a monster; and him even deciding it betrays the purpose of ME. You also wipe out 300,000 colonists, destroy a mass relay and the system it was in just to slow the reapers down. Destroying the geth to put a permanent end to a galactic-scale, recurring, extinction event is not that different. You keep stating this as a fact, yet never provide evidence of it. Where's your proof? Point towards the decisions and dialogue that indicate this. Because there's plenty to contradict it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2020 19:58:52 GMT
No it’s not. This section of the forums is about the LE and future ME games. And the OP never mentions the LE. This SECTION. Not this THREAD. If I'm not mistaken, the OP opened it just to complain about "canonizing" a particular ending, and that could only be done by rewriting something in LE; as I noted before people at Bioware have no such intent. This section is titled: Mass Effect Legendary Edition and Future Mass EffectNote the underlined section.
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Post by vonuber on Dec 27, 2020 20:28:47 GMT
Found a leaked screenshot of a post canon-synthesis ending Asari SportBall match: Can't wait!
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 27, 2020 21:04:18 GMT
I can’t stand people who call synthesis rape. That’s a serious issue, whereas synthesis simply Cures disease and does next to nothing to your body and literally nothing to your mind. It’s absolutely disgusting. People playing on others trauma and serious experience to try to seem more credible. Imagine if you were presented with a button, and you’re told that pressing it will bring world peace somehow. What does world peace actually mean, and how do you actually achieve it with this single act, unbeknownst to every other being in existence? After all, factors that lead to conflict range from anywhere between scarcity of resources to differences in ideology. These things don’t just disappear on a whim, so something would need to be altered on a fundamental level, like their minds. That’s essentially what Shepard is presented with by the Catalyst. You’re going to forcibly alter the rest of the galaxy, but you have no idea what this really means, or how this really solves anyone’s problem. All we’re told is that this is the permanent solution, and we just have to take its word for it. If you don’t want to be altered, too bad, because someone off in the distance decided it was best for you. I guess for me, what I find so off-putting about this particular decision is that it says plainly that people are incapable of growing beyond their current way of thinking and considering new possibilities. This is made worse by the fact that the player can actively choose a path that directly contradicts this, but then the rug is pulled out from under you by the ending decision basically taking hostages. It’s more about not killing those hostages than actually solving any “problem”.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 27, 2020 21:36:34 GMT
Freedom of choice, after synthesis was forced on every living being without their consent? Sure, that sounds about right. Lol. But anyways, I wouldn't overreact to a teaser trailer showing some history of ME. I don't understand this logic. Virtually every choice and its consequences are forced on every living being without their consent. Like... what freedom of choice? The protagonist is put in a situation where their choice makes some kind of very consequential choice for all others and there's no escaping it. What material tells you that destruction is bad? Destruction is 100% pure awesome. Reapers dead, Geth gone, any other AI gone. True freedom where you can move on as societies to make your own choices. Thats three dots and a dash time. ...Which probably means building new AI and machines, because it's getting patently obvious even this day that we need AI and technology in order to make an evolutionary leap, or deal with our current biological shortcomings. Eventually we're going to merge with our own tools. Heck, we already do - and I don't mean just melding with our smartphones or something, although that is obviously coming sooner or later as well.
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Post by traks on Dec 27, 2020 22:15:45 GMT
Freedom of choice, after synthesis was forced on every living being without their consent? Sure, that sounds about right. Lol. But anyways, I wouldn't overreact to a teaser trailer showing some history of ME. I don't understand this logic. Virtually every choice and its consequences are forced on every living being without their consent. Like... what freedom of choice? The protagonist is put in a situation where their choice makes some kind of very consequential choice for all others and there's no escaping it. You don't understand that talking about freedom of choice after altering every living being without their consent doesn't make any sense? That's even ignoring what others have pointed out in this thread: the way synthesis is presented, it basically is brainwashing the whole galaxy. The way you might want synthesis to work is not what ME3 offers. MEA's symbiosis is closer to that ideal, if you really want organic's evolution to go that route. But that isn't implemented on every living being against their will. But I still don't see how arguing about which ending is best and how we analyzed the options for ourselves helps going forward. To me the more interesting questions, if we return to the Milky Way in a meaningful way, are: can a threat that has nothing to do with the Reapers work after after all endings - and if the answer is yes - will BioWare try to bring a game out that let's players jump into the world state they created or will they choose one of the parallel universes? I think the latter is more likely. Then the question shifts to: which ending offers the best premise for the story going forward?
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 27, 2020 22:35:23 GMT
I think it would be fun to have 4 different games, to explore the outcome of each ending, but that won't happen.
How do you propose they make a single game which honors every ending choice? The galaxy is in a very different state after each of the endings. Easy. Ignore the OT and focus on Andromeda. Exactly
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 27, 2020 23:13:14 GMT
Easy. Ignore the OT and focus on Andromeda. Exactly A part of me really wants Bioware to go that route.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 27, 2020 23:13:42 GMT
As I've said before. I believe Bioware put in the green for comedians to use for their opening act to give the audience a good laugh It tells Shepard about the green. Or rather butter's it up. It tried a similar solution in the past. Is it referring to the collectors? If that's the case, then it's been doing it since the reapers have been around. I would guess it turns each civilization into workers, like the collectors, to do it's bidding. But it has always failed because the organics were not ready. It's something that can't be forced. Hate to tell you dumb dumb, Shepard will be forcing it, if chosen. But Shepard is ready. Wrong. The only reason he/she is ready is because there's an organic before it that could choose the green. It doesn't matter who the organic is, it just needed an organic to choose the green. Since it mentions it has only known about the crucible for several cycles, how would it know it was trying for synthesis? It says green will change dna. How does it know that? When the crucible docked, did it drop the user manual explaining what it does for thing to explain to Shepard. Synthesis is the final solution to all life. Really? How would it know that? That doesn't sound good. I guess it means that organics won't evolve any further than what they're currently at. Red and blue has a vision of what Shepard has to do to activate those colors, yet no vision for the green. Why is that? My Shepard has no idea what to do, so she/he plays stupid. I believe when Shepard chooses the green, thing is smiling. It got what it wanted. Green works in it's favor. Look how much butter it used to convince Shepard to choose it. It also remains. If the green connects organics and synthetics, does that mean thing would have control over all? One thing I'm curious about is what happens to the uglies in the green? One thing I'm thankful for is my first playthrough of ME3. I didn't have enough ems for the green. I chose red, and never looked back. If I had enough ems, it's possible I would have chosen the green by accident when Shepard walks too far forward to activate the cutscene. I know some had that happen to them. I wonder if that was done on purpose? Imagine if red was in the middle. If Bioware prefers green, then why not have it available regardless of ems? Lastly. If a player chooses to sabotage the cure, it's cured in the green, at least according to the slide. It shows the krogan rebuilding. The only time it shows that is when the genophage is cured. If I'm wrong about that, since I've never chosen the green, someone correct me.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 27, 2020 23:24:31 GMT
What the Catalyst wants or doesn't want should be of zero interest to Shepard, of course.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 27, 2020 23:34:48 GMT
What the Catalyst wants or doesn't want should be of zero interest to Shepard, of course. The wants of a AI that intends to eradicate all organic life in the galaxy trying to talk you into a choice it wants you to take? I'm sure it'll be fine. Nothing ominous about that.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 27, 2020 23:40:28 GMT
What the Catalyst wants or doesn't want should be of zero interest to Shepard, of course. The wants of a AI that intends to eradicate all organic life in the galaxy trying to talk you into a choice it wants you to take? I'm sure it'll be fine. Nothing ominous about that. Well, there’s always the option to do nothing, but then if the goal was to screw everyone over, it wouldn’t need to present any options to do that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2020 23:57:09 GMT
What the Catalyst wants or doesn't want should be of zero interest to Shepard, of course. The wants of a AI that intends to eradicate all organic life in the galaxy trying to talk you into a choice it wants you to take? I'm sure it'll be fine. Nothing ominous about that. Yet you trust it’s pitch that damaging the thing you built to kill it will get you what you want?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 28, 2020 0:15:55 GMT
Yet you trust it’s pitch that damaging the thing you built to kill it will get you what you want? I absolutely don't. I've been about this plenty of times and even the destroy option is extremely iffy that it comes out of the Catalyst's mouth. And Bioware doesn't even give you the option to bluff Starkid into giving it away. Well, there’s always the option to do nothing, but then if the goal was to screw everyone over, it wouldn’t need to present any options to do that. It would, if its intention is to mislead. Which would make more sense for the Catalyst to do. 3 different options that all end in failure and the organic in front of it dying. What more could the Catalyst ask?
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 28, 2020 0:26:49 GMT
Yet you trust it’s pitch that damaging the thing you built to kill it will get you what you want? I absolutely don't. I've been about this plenty of times and even the destroy option is extremely iffy that it comes out of the Catalyst's mouth. And Bioware doesn't even give you the option to bluff Starkid into giving it away. Well, there’s always the option to do nothing, but then if the goal was to screw everyone over, it wouldn’t need to present any options to do that. It would, if its intention is to mislead. Which would make more sense for the Catalyst to do. 3 different options that all end in failure and the organic in front of it dying. What more could the Catalyst ask? If it’s in such a position where it can mislead, then it already has Shepard by the balls anyway. Destroy could just be Synthesis, or there is no option explicitly stated to allow destruction in the first place. Presenting 3 options at all wouldn’t really make much sense. If there was going to be a gotcha moment, it wouldn’t need to be that complicated. In the end, whether or not you trust the Catalyst is neither here or there. Doing nothing seems to guarantee failure anyway. If you were in a room that you were certain was going to fill with molten steel, you’d probably want to walk through the door with the exit sign, even if you suspected it to be a trap.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 28, 2020 0:29:54 GMT
The wants of a AI that intends to eradicate all organic life in the galaxy trying to talk you into a choice it wants you to take? I'm sure it'll be fine. Nothing ominous about that. Yet you trust it’s pitch that damaging the thing you built to kill it will get you what you want? The power conduit seems to be part of the Citadel, not the Crucible.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 28, 2020 0:32:13 GMT
does this thread proves IT? and Does IT proves Pennywise?
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 28, 2020 0:39:22 GMT
I don't understand this logic. Virtually every choice and its consequences are forced on every living being without their consent. Like... what freedom of choice? The protagonist is put in a situation where their choice makes some kind of very consequential choice for all others and there's no escaping it. You don't understand that talking about freedom of choice after altering every living being without their consent doesn't make any sense? Yes, because it's funny to talk about 'freedom of choice' when it's obvious when 'freedom of choice' is non-existent in any option chosen. In ANY scenario, the protagonist IMPOSES their choice over others. Either way they are making a choice without anyone's consent and deciding their future, in no smaller caliber than Synthesis, given what things like Destroy option means. DEPRIVING them from things that will have as big of an impact on their life as Synthesis is no better than altering them on the spot. Either way, the consequences for others are as huge in the long run. And while this is an a posteriori knowledge, I'd say that the Syntehsis does shape up to simply be a rational choice. The fact that precious "freedom of choice" has been lifted in one crucial moment (for all choices) doesn't mean that people aren't able to achieve more freedom depending on tools available to them after each ending. And you can do a lot more with more knowledge of the past and reaching effective immortality and also a good deal of that peace and quiet. What exactly was the substance of the 'brainwashing' tho? Organics and synthetics co-existing peacefully and apparently building an even greater civilization...? There's no reason to think that civilization will get another shot at that. We already know from MEA there are other things out there and there's no way of knowing when they'd arrive in this neighborhood... Or it may simply be a repeat of the past, especially given how much knowledge about past or AI is lost. It isn't. I'm just very confused why people think that the ME3 choices are divided on ones that respect freedom of choice more than others. Never mind that I've always viewed the premise of ME as synthetics vs. living organisms as flawed, due to the fact that it's quite possible that we're going to achieve 'Synthesis' long before our first large attempt at interstellar travel. With how MEA went it seems BW kinda agreed with me. So it's possible to still infer something from this, namely that it's possible that they may actually subvert the premise of the past trilogy. BioWare likes this kind of stunts.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 28, 2020 0:43:51 GMT
If it’s in such a position where it can mislead, then it already has Shepard by the balls anyway. Destroy could just be Synthesis, or there is no option explicitly stated to allow destruction in the first place. Presenting 3 options at all wouldn’t really make much sense. If there was going to be a gotcha moment, it wouldn’t need to be that complicated. In the end, whether or not you trust the Catalyst is neither here or there. Doing nothing seems to guarantee failure anyway. If you were in a room that you were certain was going to fill with molten steel, you’d probably want to walk through the door with the exit sign, even if you suspected it to be a trap. It's more like there's 3 exit signs that you know can't be trusted and the moment you turn back, you're attacked by a tiger. You're essentially fucked at that point. From a narrative standpoint, it is the only logical continuation of the Catalyst scene, because it has no logical motivation to be honest with you, or work with you. All I understand is that whoever wrote that scene has a very poor understanding of what an AI would be like, especially an AI of that caliber. Contrast Catalyst's behaviour to the AI we find on the Citadel in ME1. The difference is day and night.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 28, 2020 0:52:24 GMT
If it’s in such a position where it can mislead, then it already has Shepard by the balls anyway. Destroy could just be Synthesis, or there is no option explicitly stated to allow destruction in the first place. Presenting 3 options at all wouldn’t really make much sense. If there was going to be a gotcha moment, it wouldn’t need to be that complicated. In the end, whether or not you trust the Catalyst is neither here or there. Doing nothing seems to guarantee failure anyway. If you were in a room that you were certain was going to fill with molten steel, you’d probably want to walk through the door with the exit sign, even if you suspected it to be a trap. It's more like there's 3 exit signs that you know can't be trusted and the moment you turn back, you're attacked by a tiger. You're essentially fucked at that point. From a narrative standpoint, it is the only logical continuation of the Catalyst scene, because it has no logical motivation to be honest with you, or work with you. All I understand is that whoever wrote that scene has a very poor understanding of what an AI would be like, especially an AI of that caliber. Contrast Catalyst's behaviour to the AI we find on the Citadel in ME1. The difference is day and night. Like I said, it’d have you by the balls either way. Writing quibbles aside, all options come with an exceptional risk, so you have no choice but to either take a chance that the options are what they say they are, or sit there and wait and see if the Crucible does anything on its own, which we know ends in failure since the reapers eventually destroy it. This is why I don’t see it in terms of trust. Trust is meaningless. The only thing that exists is the risk.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 28, 2020 0:55:08 GMT
Lol, how is anyone here qualified to say what an authentic AI would or would not behave like?
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Post by themikefest on Dec 28, 2020 1:05:29 GMT
I found it interesting how thing didn't give Shepard an answer when he/she asked if there will be peace if green is chosen.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 28, 2020 1:11:52 GMT
I found it interesting how thing didn't give Shepard an answer when he/she asked if there will be peace if green is chosen. I was always more interested in what peace really truly means long-term. Can’t have life without conflict. Even if we are opposed to things like war, struggle and competition are simply a necessary part of being alive, so how do you achieve lasting peace while you’re still living. Personally, I don’t think you do. I doubt Synthesis is going to magically make batarians stop trying to have slaves, or krogan from their violent competitions. People want to get paid, thus do things that might put them at odds with others for money. Crime can’t just disappear. Maybe Synthesis is simply a universal lobotomy for everyone. It’s the only ending that makes the galaxy truly peaceful.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 28, 2020 1:40:31 GMT
Lol, how is anyone here qualified to say what an authentic AI would or would not behave like? I find it difficult to believe that an AI developed and self-programmed to eradicate all organic life would, at any point, consider itself obsolete or inadequate enough to carry on its task, regardless of the options presented to it. If you consider it bound to its task and, therefore, possessing the most basic of self-preservation instincts, to prevent itself from committing suicide, in order to keep performing its life purpose. Because if it lacks that self-preservation principle, the AI has no reason to start the cycle to begin with, because it has no vested interest in its existence. Further more, any option that would alter or terminate it, would be against its self-preservation, as it would cease to exist, as the AI, at least, understands itself to be, or be substituted by an inferior by-product of its consciousness. The AI has no reason to be cooperative, whether the option it presents is Destroy, Control or Synthesis. It doesn't make sense.
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