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Post by garrusfan1 on Jan 24, 2021 23:50:43 GMT
The "reason" the reapers commited galactic genocide every fifty thousand years is supposedly because synthetics would turn against their masters and wipe them out. Well what if the game is set fifty years into the future or something like that and the galaxy used synthetics to help rebuild and then they rebelled against organics and that is what ME5 is about.
Thoughts on this?
edit
Okay I didn't say I agreed with the reapers and their solution was stupid. What I meant was that the situation that they were created to solve came up.
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Post by 10k on Jan 25, 2021 0:08:07 GMT
Wait didn't Leviathan DLC prove the reaper logic was false?
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Post by garrusfan1 on Jan 25, 2021 0:14:10 GMT
Wait didn't Leviathan DLC prove the reaper logic was false? Kinda. But the idea of synthetics attacking organics is more commanly discussed and the AI that controls the reapers was originally designed to fix that problem and just messed up.
Ah galactic genocide due to a computer glitch.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 25, 2021 7:56:51 GMT
The whole synthetics vs organics conflict is kind of a basic scifi trope I’d prefer to get away from. I don’t think we need any more in-game arguments about robotic personhood and once again just being able to make nice with the machines as often as we can. I’d rather deal with interstellar politics, maybe dealing with the power vacuum of a ravaged galactic society, have sex with our subordinates (again) and shoot every spacefaring asshole we come across.
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Post by traks on Jan 25, 2021 12:15:40 GMT
How can the Reapers be proven right? I doubt that we lose and will be wiped out in ME5. A bit more serious: the Reapers were already proven wrong in the trilogy (at least so far), because the only synthetics with the ability to wipe all organics out are the Reapers themselves. The Geth lose the war in ME3 without Reaper help (uploading the code), so they can't be what the Reapers are saving organics from and we also don't know any other synthetic species that endangers organics in our cycle.
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 14:04:18 GMT
Can't really "prove right" a form of logic that is inherently flawed via the only case studies we have in game (quarian v geth, where the quarians win without Reaper interference, as well as Metacon war, which Protheans were winning).
Especially when the Reapers' solution to this nonexistent problem (i.e. toaster kills meatbag) is to make an army of giant robots to repeatedly kill meatbags with. Even ones that didnt even invent AI yet (which, in our cycle, was only the quarians, and perhaps the humans as well were just getting started. Every other species gets harvested simply for being in the same cycle)
Why didn't they intervene to save the rachni from extinction? Guess they don't care about preserving the goo when its meatbags vs meatbags doing genocide. Same goes for Geth v Geth heretics. They were their own unique life form distinct from the standard geth software. Not worth preserving?
While we're at it what's going on in MEA? You'd think a galaxy with no Reapers would be overrun with killer robots, but it isn't. In fact the dominant species are organic Borg that don't even seem to use AIs (given they've been studying remnant for decades and learned nothing, while SAM cracks the language and security systems in about 2 seconds)
Hard to prove something that has been so fundamentally unsupported by the evidence we've been given.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 25, 2021 14:22:45 GMT
Then they'll have a damn hard time because it's not a remotely logical position at all.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 25, 2021 15:35:38 GMT
There is no way to prove them wrong either. Just because the quarians were wining this time doesn't mean in the long run AI doesn't win. It also makes 0 damn sense that the quarians were even offering a challenge to the geth. The geth kicked their asses at 100% population, they are now at 1% population and winning? That's just bad writing.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jan 25, 2021 16:02:00 GMT
There is no way to prove them wrong either. Just because the quarians were wining this time doesn't mean in the long run AI doesn't win. It also makes 0 damn sense that the quarians were even offering a challenge to the geth. The geth kicked their asses at 100% population, they are now at 1% population and winning? That's just bad writing. This is true. 50,000 years is not even a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of the universe. The sample data is so small that you can't prove the reapers right or wrong. Organics being top dog for 50,000, 800,000, 10 million years might just be the deviation from the norm that is overall synthetic supremacy.
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 17:11:12 GMT
There is no way to prove them wrong either. Just because the quarians were wining this time doesn't mean in the long run AI doesn't win. It also makes 0 damn sense that the quarians were even offering a challenge to the geth. The geth kicked their asses at 100% population, they are now at 1% population and winning? That's just bad writing. Quarians refined their tech and developed the equivalent of an extremely deadly bioweapon that did most of the killing for them. It's not like they were winning fights through sheer attrition like the geth did in the Morning War. So, at some point before heat death of the universe (wherein it won't matter) machines will eventually win a war and kill some (but obviously not all, or Andromeda should be depopulated) organics at some indeterminate point in the future? Guess we gotta build machines to kill all the organics before their own machines kill them! Even ones who don't even have machines! Like them krogan, they're barely civilized and bombed themselves back to the stone age, but let's harvest them anyway because the unrelated quarians over there made some robots in the same cycle. Bad luck guys! Fantastic logic! We've clearly solved this "problem" (it isn't one, species go extinct all the time in ways not even relating to AI, e.g. the Rachni. Or look at Earth's history) that certainly exists with a solution that certainly makes sense. Namely, that having a race of machines rendering organics into goo on an accelerated timescale is somehow preferable to just letting things play out naturally. That goo must be really important. Hey, let's put it at risk by using the same machines that it's stored in direct combat every 50k years where they're frequently killed! Great for "preservation" of life! Imagine still defending this dreck in 2021. I don't need to "prove" the Reapers wrong. Burden of proof is on them (and the writers) to show me how and why this future possibility (that they haven't even provided an example for yet) is a problem requiring such a ridiculous "solution" in the first place.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 25, 2021 17:24:05 GMT
There is no way to prove them wrong either. Just because the quarians were wining this time doesn't mean in the long run AI doesn't win. It also makes 0 damn sense that the quarians were even offering a challenge to the geth. The geth kicked their asses at 100% population, they are now at 1% population and winning? That's just bad writing. Quarians refined their tech and developed the equivalent of an extremely deadly bioweapon that did most of the killing for them. It's not like they were winning fights through sheer attrition like the geth did in the Morning War. So, at some point before heat death of the universe (wherein it won't matter) machines will eventually win a war and kill some (but obviously not all, or Andromeda should be depopulated) organics at some indeterminate point in the future? Guess we gotta build machines to kill all the organics before their own machines kill them! Even ones who don't even have machines! Like them krogan, they're barely civilized and bombed themselves back to the stone age, but let's harvest them anyway because the unrelated quarians over there made some robots in the same cycle. Bad luck guys! Fantastic logic! We've clearly solved this "problem" (it isn't one, species go extinct all the time in ways not even relating to AI, e.g. the Rachni. Or look at Earth's history) that certainly exists with a solution that certainly makes sense. Namely, that having a race of machines rendering organics into goo on an accelerated timescale is somehow preferable to just letting things play out naturally. That goo must be really important. Hey, let's put it at risk by using the same machines that it's stored in direct combat every 50k years where they're frequently killed! Great for "preservation" of life! Imagine still defending this dreck in 2021. Imagine getting this worked up over this shit in 2021.
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 17:28:44 GMT
There is no way to prove them wrong either. Just because the quarians were wining this time doesn't mean in the long run AI doesn't win. It also makes 0 damn sense that the quarians were even offering a challenge to the geth. The geth kicked their asses at 100% population, they are now at 1% population and winning? That's just bad writing. This is true. 50,000 years is not even a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of the universe. The sample data is so small that you can't prove the reapers right or wrong. Organics being top dog for 50,000, 800,000, 10 million years might just be the deviation from the norm that is overall synthetic supremacy. Robots are destined to rule and kill all meatbags, which is why Andromeda is definitely run by them and not some organic Borg knockoff that doesn't even use AIs. The only ancient robots that we have any example of screwing up the natural evolutionary life cycles of organics are the Reapers themselves.
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 17:39:49 GMT
Quarians refined their tech and developed the equivalent of an extremely deadly bioweapon that did most of the killing for them. It's not like they were winning fights through sheer attrition like the geth did in the Morning War. So, at some point before heat death of the universe (wherein it won't matter) machines will eventually win a war and kill some (but obviously not all, or Andromeda should be depopulated) organics at some indeterminate point in the future? Guess we gotta build machines to kill all the organics before their own machines kill them! Even ones who don't even have machines! Like them krogan, they're barely civilized and bombed themselves back to the stone age, but let's harvest them anyway because the unrelated quarians over there made some robots in the same cycle. Bad luck guys! Fantastic logic! We've clearly solved this "problem" (it isn't one, species go extinct all the time in ways not even relating to AI, e.g. the Rachni. Or look at Earth's history) that certainly exists with a solution that certainly makes sense. Namely, that having a race of machines rendering organics into goo on an accelerated timescale is somehow preferable to just letting things play out naturally. That goo must be really important. Hey, let's put it at risk by using the same machines that it's stored in direct combat every 50k years where they're frequently killed! Great for "preservation" of life! Imagine still defending this dreck in 2021. Imagine getting this worked up over this shit in 2021. Imagine still not having a counterargument in 2021 beyond "you can't prove a negative". Like even Bio took the L on their ridiculous "let's invent synthetics to kill organics to stop them maybe being killed by synthetics eventually" logic loop about 4 years ago now with MEA. You got fanboys still simping for 2011 Mac Walters and his "art" ending tho.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 25, 2021 17:51:19 GMT
Imagine getting this worked up over this shit in 2021. Imagine still not having a counterargument in 2021 beyond "you can't prove a negative". Like even Bio took the L on their ridiculous "let's invent synthetics to kill organics to stop them maybe being killed by synthetics eventually" logic loop about 4 years ago now with MEA. You got fanboys still simping for 2011 Mac Walters and his "art" ending tho. Whatever dude, keep crying in rage.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jan 25, 2021 18:05:16 GMT
This is true. 50,000 years is not even a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of the universe. The sample data is so small that you can't prove the reapers right or wrong. Organics being top dog for 50,000, 800,000, 10 million years might just be the deviation from the norm that is overall synthetic supremacy. Robots are destined to rule and kill all meatbags, which is why Andromeda is definitely run by them and not some organic Borg knockoff that doesn't even use AIs. The only ancient robots that we have any example of screwing up the natural evolutionary life cycles of organics are the Reapers themselves. masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Remnant
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 18:16:15 GMT
Robots are destined to rule and kill all meatbags, which is why Andromeda is definitely run by them and not some organic Borg knockoff that doesn't even use AIs. The only ancient robots that we have any example of screwing up the natural evolutionary life cycles of organics are the Reapers themselves. masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Remnant Why did you link an unrelated article? Remnant bots aren't AIs, they aren't even close to sentient, and they don't do anything besides sit around ancient structures and attack things that get close. Oh and they can be controlled and directed to follow an organic leader (Ryder) quite easily. Little more than glorified versions of Tali's pink combat drone. They aren't a dominant species in the cluster at all.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jan 25, 2021 19:17:48 GMT
Why did you link an unrelated article? Remnant bots aren't AIs, they aren't even close to sentient, and they don't do anything besides sit around ancient structures and attack things that get close. Oh and they can be controlled and directed to follow an organic leader (Ryder) quite easily. Little more than glorified versions of Tali's pink combat drone. They aren't a dominant species in the cluster at all. Using an AI. Also, the bots aren't the things I'm talking about. Who created this Remnant technology? The Jardaan? Were they organic? Why did they disappear? Were they wiped out? Why is all that's left of them synthetic? When all of these questions remain unanswered then the hypothesis in ME3 has not been proved wrong at all. There's nothing in MEA stopping Bioware from bringing back the organic-synthetics dichotomy in a hypothetical MEA2.
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Post by vonuber on Jan 25, 2021 19:19:12 GMT
Reapers should have just been a race of giant killer robots stomping apex civilisations before they become a threat to them, rather than the bollocks they came up with.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 25, 2021 19:59:21 GMT
Reapers should have just been a race of giant killer robots stomping apex civilisations before they become a threat to them, rather than the bollocks they came up with. Sure their end reason could have been better than what we got, heck just a because we can would have been better. But the AI/organic conflict idea works to some degree. We can say they are proven wrong but we have like 2 data points that have not reached a conclusion they had hundreds maybe thousands of data points where it went wrong and never went right. The leviathans didn't bother building the catalyst until this shit became a problem for a while. They had potentially a hundred million years maybe a billion years of watching it go to shit over and over. After watching that a, but we get along this time might fall on deaf ears.
Could it have been better than a malfunctioning AI story, sure. Does it work as is on a basic level, yes. The bigger flaw IMO was the 3 stupid choices not the broken AI plot. Especially synthesis which did the impossible and somehow managed to be executed worse than the idea sounds at its core. Cyber plants, what the galaxy needed.
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 20:07:13 GMT
Why did you link an unrelated article? Remnant bots aren't AIs, they aren't even close to sentient, and they don't do anything besides sit around ancient structures and attack things that get close. Oh and they can be controlled and directed to follow an organic leader (Ryder) quite easily. Little more than glorified versions of Tali's pink combat drone. They aren't a dominant species in the cluster at all. Using an AI. Also, the bots aren't the things I'm talking about. Who created this Remnant technology? The Jardaan? Were they organic? Why did they disappear? Were they wiped out? Why is all that's left of them synthetic? When all of these questions remain unanswered then the hypothesis in ME3 has not been proved wrong at all. There's nothing in MEA stopping Bioware from bringing back the organic-synthetics dichotomy in a hypothetical MEA2. The hypothesis (more of a prophecy, as it isnt based on any previous evidence we're aware of) has been disproven by MEA's worldstate. Starbrat: "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics" Cue MEA, we find two highly advanced, seperate organic species in the same tiny cluster. One of them has even been making AI for hundreds of years (the one we find on Voeld) and hasn't been killed by it yet, the other existed alongside the Jaardan and has outlived them (meaning if Jaardan were synthetics, they're yet another example of failure in the Reaper logic). Further, I dont even know why you lot are still attempting to shift the burden of proof for the Reaper claims. We still don't have a single instance of robots destroying all organic life in a galaxy (other than the Reapers themselves, fulfilling their own prophecy). We have two seperate instances of them failing to do so (Zhatil and Geth, in both cases they needed Reaper assistance against the organics), and one whole galaxy (Andromeda) supporting advanced organic life that still hasn't fallen to synthetics after 10 billion years. Reapers never sufficiently proved their claim, and given all the evidence we have goes against it, why should it even be entertained?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 25, 2021 20:07:27 GMT
Why did you link an unrelated article? Remnant bots aren't AIs, they aren't even close to sentient, and they don't do anything besides sit around ancient structures and attack things that get close. Oh and they can be controlled and directed to follow an organic leader (Ryder) quite easily. Little more than glorified versions of Tali's pink combat drone. They aren't a dominant species in the cluster at all. Using an AI. Not during the end battle, they weren't.
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 20:09:48 GMT
Reapers should have just been a race of giant killer robots stomping apex civilisations before they become a threat to them, rather than the bollocks they came up with. Would have made more sense but wouldn't have been "art" or whatever.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jan 25, 2021 20:47:16 GMT
Using an AI. Also, the bots aren't the things I'm talking about. Who created this Remnant technology? The Jardaan? Were they organic? Why did they disappear? Were they wiped out? Why is all that's left of them synthetic? When all of these questions remain unanswered then the hypothesis in ME3 has not been proved wrong at all. There's nothing in MEA stopping Bioware from bringing back the organic-synthetics dichotomy in a hypothetical MEA2. The hypothesis (more of a prophecy, as it isnt based on any previous evidence we're aware of) has been disproven by MEA's worldstate. Starbrat: "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics" Cue MEA, we find two highly advanced, seperate organic species in the same tiny cluster. One of them has even been making AI for hundreds of years (the one we find on Voeld) and hasn't been killed by it yet, the other existed alongside the Jaardan and has outlived them (meaning if Jaardan were synthetics, they're yet another example of failure in the Reaper logic). Further, I dont even know why you lot are still attempting to shift the burden of proof for the Reaper claims. We still don't have a single instance of robots destroying all organic life in a galaxy (other than the Reapers themselves, fulfilling their own prophecy). We have two seperate instances of them failing to do so (Zhatil and Geth, in both cases they needed Reaper assistance against the organics), and one whole galaxy (Andromeda) supporting advanced organic life that still hasn't fallen to synthetics after 10 billion years.Reapers never sufficiently proved their claim, and given all the evidence we have goes against it, why should it even be entertained? Advanced sentient life in the tiny bit of the galaxy we see will have only lived for a miniscule fraction of that time. There is plenty of time for such things to happen. As for the point Hanako made about Ryder controlling Remnant at the end - I have no retort. That scene was nonsensical. I would hope Bioware in MEA2 gives a semi rational explanation of what happened. I do believe that a lot of people's disdain for the idea that 'synthetics destroy organics' comes from a pure hatred of the endings, because the concept is nothing new to the series. We've known from the beginning in Mass Effect 1 that the reapers were coming to destroy all organic life, and that this action was a regular event. All Bioware in ME3 did was add the idea that, even without the reapers, the extermination of organics is still going to happen at some point in time anyway.
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Post by Radec on Jan 25, 2021 21:31:08 GMT
The hypothesis (more of a prophecy, as it isnt based on any previous evidence we're aware of) has been disproven by MEA's worldstate. Starbrat: "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics" Cue MEA, we find two highly advanced, seperate organic species in the same tiny cluster. One of them has even been making AI for hundreds of years (the one we find on Voeld) and hasn't been killed by it yet, the other existed alongside the Jaardan and has outlived them (meaning if Jaardan were synthetics, they're yet another example of failure in the Reaper logic). Further, I dont even know why you lot are still attempting to shift the burden of proof for the Reaper claims. We still don't have a single instance of robots destroying all organic life in a galaxy (other than the Reapers themselves, fulfilling their own prophecy). We have two seperate instances of them failing to do so (Zhatil and Geth, in both cases they needed Reaper assistance against the organics), and one whole galaxy (Andromeda) supporting advanced organic life that still hasn't fallen to synthetics after 10 billion years.Reapers never sufficiently proved their claim, and given all the evidence we have goes against it, why should it even be entertained? Advanced sentient life in the tiny bit of the galaxy we see will have only lived for a miniscule fraction of that time. There is plenty of time for such things to happen. As for the point Hanako made about Ryder controlling Remnant at the end - I have no retort. That scene was nonsensical. I would hope Bioware in MEA2 gives a semi rational explanation of what happened. I do believe that a lot of people's disdain for the idea that 'synthetics destroy organics' comes from a pure hatred of the endings, because the concept is nothing new to the series. We've known from the beginning in Mass Effect 1 that the reapers were coming to destroy all organic life, and that this action was a regular event. All Bioware in ME3 did was add the idea that, even without the reapers, the extermination of organics is still going to happen at some point in time anyway. So? The Andromeda galaxy has had 10 billion years (4x the amount of time it took Humans to evolve and start creating AIs in the MW), yet isn't overrun with machines razing every planet with organic molecules (that might eventually evolve into a sapient species given the same 2.5 billion odd years humans got) in defense of itself. Even if there were past Andromeda synthetics that destroyed their creators, clearly they stopped "destroying all organics" at some point, as new advanced organic life has indeed evolved. The brat said "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics". When? Under what conditions? Organics are constantly evolving and becoming "advanced" as old ones die off. What is your specific evidence for this conclusion (i.e. show, not tell)? I have this whole other galaxy that totally contradicts your claims, as it has been evolving new forms of advanced organics for at least 7 billion years (assuming human evolution as a median) without Reapers doing anything. I actually don't mind the concept of grey goo or whatever other type of AI doomsday. It's common in Science Fiction. The Reaper version of it is just really really poorly elucidated/self contradictory. The "solution" is laughably worse than the supposed problem of advanced species going extinct to robots and robots only (Reapers don't even try to prevent organic on organic genocides like the Rachni or Krogan for whatever illogical reason, even tho supposedly they are there to preserve species). In fact their meddling causes extinctions like the Rachni (and krogan genophage, as a knock on effect), that wouldn't have happened otherwise. They'd have been better off as an Apex synthetic race that is just murdering younger civilizations to maintain dominance, rather than the writers, in the 3rd act, trying to give them a "deep" purpose that ends up making no sense .
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ahglock
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jan 26, 2021 0:40:14 GMT
The Milky Way galaxy is 3.5 billion years older than Andromeda take out reaper years and it still has probably a billion years on Andromeda. We have no idea how the AI has developed in Andromeda so far, we do know the AI there are fairly limited in capabilities they are more VI than AI and on top of that they pretty much do murder organics when given the chance, they are basically a machine version of the keepers but this time with violence. And there is a large environmental force that attacks the only "AI" we are aware of there, destroying and disabling it. We have no idea what is happening outside of this sector, the sector where the AI are being attacked by some force. For all we know the Kett are in a giant holy war with different AI in their part of the galaxy. Andromeda is not a good example of it working, and the Reapers being wrong.
And even if it does eventually work out, it failed repeatedly and if the Leviathans had not stepped in all organic life would have been killed in the galaxy. They were working against the extinction of all organics which was repeatedly threatened by AI without fail. Their solution seems a bit extreme when something like just wiping out the offending race would seem to be a big enough object lesson to stop it. But they may have tried that and had that fail repeatedly. They had like a billion years of data saying organic vs AI conflict will occur and AI always wins in the end. 2 or 3 data points where it seems to be going the other way, isn't much of a proof against it.
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