inherit
1047
0
Mar 28, 2024 21:48:19 GMT
1,380
ClarkKent
875
Aug 17, 2016 20:27:17 GMT
August 2016
clarkkent
|
Post by ClarkKent on Jan 26, 2021 1:03:26 GMT
Advanced sentient life in the tiny bit of the galaxy we see will have only lived for a miniscule fraction of that time. There is plenty of time for such things to happen. As for the point Hanako made about Ryder controlling Remnant at the end - I have no retort. That scene was nonsensical. I would hope Bioware in MEA2 gives a semi rational explanation of what happened. I do believe that a lot of people's disdain for the idea that 'synthetics destroy organics' comes from a pure hatred of the endings, because the concept is nothing new to the series. We've known from the beginning in Mass Effect 1 that the reapers were coming to destroy all organic life, and that this action was a regular event. All Bioware in ME3 did was add the idea that, even without the reapers, the extermination of organics is still going to happen at some point in time anyway. So? The Andromeda galaxy has had 10 billion years (4x the amount of time it took Humans to evolve and start creating AIs in the MW), yet isn't overrun with machines razing every planet with organic molecules (that might eventually evolve into a sapient species given the same 2.5 billion odd years humans got) in defense of itself. Even if there were past Andromeda synthetics that destroyed their creators, clearly they stopped "destroying all organics" at some point, as new advanced organic life has indeed evolved.The brat said "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics". When? Under what conditions? Organics are constantly evolving and becoming "advanced" as old ones die off. What is your specific evidence for this conclusion (i.e. show, not tell)? I have this whole other galaxy that totally contradicts your claims, as it has been evolving new forms of advanced organics for at least 7 billion years (assuming human evolution as a median) without Reapers doing anything. I actually don't mind the concept of grey goo or whatever other type of AI doomsday. It's common in Science Fiction. The Reaper version of it is just really really poorly elucidated/self contradictory. The "solution" is laughably worse than the supposed problem of advanced species going extinct to robots and robots only (Reapers don't even try to prevent organic on organic genocides like the Rachni or Krogan for whatever illogical reason, even tho supposedly they are there to preserve species). In fact their meddling causes extinctions like the Rachni (and krogan genophage, as a knock on effect), that wouldn't have happened otherwise. They'd have been better off as an Apex synthetic race that is just murdering younger civilizations to maintain dominance, rather than the writers, in the 3rd act, trying to give them a "deep" purpose that ends up making no sense . But you haven't seen a 'whole other galaxy'. We've only seen an insignificant spit of a cluster. Who's to say large swathes of the Andromeda galaxy aren't ruled by synthetics? We simply don't have the sample size to prove the reapers wrong. They don't intervene in wars of organics because they have no reason to. Their remit is to prevent total synthetic dominance - nothing else.
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Jan 26, 2021 1:24:40 GMT
What we do know is that AI has had no Reapers to combat it in Andromeda for 10 billion years and it hasn't managed to become depopulated of organic life yet.
The idea of a major war going on between the kett and AI's currently is totally without evidence. We know a lot about their society from the various datapads left around, down to inane details like the names of their vassal races (eealen, thusali, sirinide) but nowhere do they say anything about fighting AI's. You're engaging in supposition, grasping at straws to defend a position the idiot ME3 writers put 2 seconds of thought into, and later abandoned (just as most of the ME1 lore was abandoned in 2 and 3).
Again "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics". When? Seems like it hasn't happened yet. In fact the geth just wanted to keep to themselves until you fucked with their coding to make them more aggressive. They didn't even wanna chase and kill their own creators nevermind going to tuchanka or earth and scrubbing them of all life down to bacteria for the next 200 billion years until entropy sets in and kills them. In fact they were cleaning up Rannoch of toxins, exactly the oppposite
Do the toasters need 100 billion years of uninhibited development before they start deciding they must scrub planets of any material that could become organic matter (and eventually life, a couple billion later, then "advanced" another couple billion)? It makes claims with such inevitable certainty, im sure the Catalyst "AI" (not actually sure, given how simple minded it seems, just like its creators) has some kind of mathematical model or formula it used to arrive at this extinction probability. Can we see it?
Burden of proof generally lies with the one making the claim. All we get from the brat is "there's not enough time to explain" and a bunch of in universe case studies to the contrary (utterly failing the "show, not tell" principle).
Top tier writing and logic.
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Jan 26, 2021 1:42:23 GMT
So? The Andromeda galaxy has had 10 billion years (4x the amount of time it took Humans to evolve and start creating AIs in the MW), yet isn't overrun with machines razing every planet with organic molecules (that might eventually evolve into a sapient species given the same 2.5 billion odd years humans got) in defense of itself. Even if there were past Andromeda synthetics that destroyed their creators, clearly they stopped "destroying all organics" at some point, as new advanced organic life has indeed evolved.The brat said "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics". When? Under what conditions? Organics are constantly evolving and becoming "advanced" as old ones die off. What is your specific evidence for this conclusion (i.e. show, not tell)? I have this whole other galaxy that totally contradicts your claims, as it has been evolving new forms of advanced organics for at least 7 billion years (assuming human evolution as a median) without Reapers doing anything. I actually don't mind the concept of grey goo or whatever other type of AI doomsday. It's common in Science Fiction. The Reaper version of it is just really really poorly elucidated/self contradictory. The "solution" is laughably worse than the supposed problem of advanced species going extinct to robots and robots only (Reapers don't even try to prevent organic on organic genocides like the Rachni or Krogan for whatever illogical reason, even tho supposedly they are there to preserve species). In fact their meddling causes extinctions like the Rachni (and krogan genophage, as a knock on effect), that wouldn't have happened otherwise. They'd have been better off as an Apex synthetic race that is just murdering younger civilizations to maintain dominance, rather than the writers, in the 3rd act, trying to give them a "deep" purpose that ends up making no sense . But you haven't seen a 'whole other galaxy'. We've only seen an insignificant spit of a cluster. Who's to say large swathes of the Andromeda galaxy aren't ruled by synthetics? We simply don't have the sample size to prove the reapers wrong. They don't intervene in wars of organics because they have no reason to. Their remit is to prevent total synthetic dominance - nothing else. Who cares if large swathes are ruled by AI races? Aside from multitude of kett logs found discussing their Empire but saying nothing of this, the brat said all the organics would be destroyed without the Reapers, and they aren't in MEA. Case closed In fact, the most "advanced" race we know of in Andromeda, one with a massive Empire of at least 12 vassal races, is fairly primitive compared to evrn the organic MW races (No AI of their own comparable to SAM, no biotics). Any AI of any capability should knock them on their ass quite easily, especially given their goofy reproductive method would be useless against an army of machines. Yet they've survived, despite a seeming antipathy for AI's. Reapers also seemingly caused the Rachni Wars, which led to that species ultimate extinction and the krogan genophage (which is causing their extinction too). Why did they do that? How does that serve their mandate? They also interfere on the side of the geth, and without outside intervention from our side, would've got the quarians all killed in space (not harvested, killed, as happens in the bad Rannoch arc ending) which seems the exact opposite thing they should be doing if they wanna preserve organics from synths. It seems more like they just do chaotic evil things for the sake of it. Then Mac Walters decided he'd show the world his artistic genius in the last 20 minutes and we get the ME3 ending.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,073
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,791
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Jan 26, 2021 2:34:22 GMT
Wait a sec. The Rachni War was a failure for Sovereign, not a success. The consequences which resulted aren't what the Reapers wanted, so of course they don't advance Reaper goals.
|
|
inherit
1047
0
Mar 28, 2024 21:48:19 GMT
1,380
ClarkKent
875
Aug 17, 2016 20:27:17 GMT
August 2016
clarkkent
|
Post by ClarkKent on Jan 26, 2021 7:35:26 GMT
But you haven't seen a 'whole other galaxy'. We've only seen an insignificant spit of a cluster. Who's to say large swathes of the Andromeda galaxy aren't ruled by synthetics? We simply don't have the sample size to prove the reapers wrong. They don't intervene in wars of organics because they have no reason to. Their remit is to prevent total synthetic dominance - nothing else. Who cares if large swathes are ruled by AI races? Aside from multitude of kett logs found discussing their Empire but saying nothing of this, the brat said all the organics would be destroyed without the Reapers, and they aren't in MEA. Case closed In fact, the most "advanced" race we know of in Andromeda, one with a massive Empire of at least 12 vassal races, is fairly primitive compared to evrn the organic MW races (No AI of their own comparable to SAM, no biotics). Any AI of any capability should knock them on their ass quite easily, especially given their goofy reproductive method would be useless against an army of machines. Yet they've survived, despite a seeming antipathy for AI's. Reapers also seemingly caused the Rachni Wars, which led to that species ultimate extinction and the krogan genophage (which is causing their extinction too). Why did they do that? How does that serve their mandate? They also interfere on the side of the geth, and without outside intervention from our side, would've got the quarians all killed in space (not harvested, killed, as happens in the bad Rannoch arc ending) which seems the exact opposite thing they should be doing if they wanna preserve organics from synths. It seems more like they just do chaotic evil things for the sake of it. Then Mac Walters decided he'd show the world his artistic genius in the last 20 minutes and we get the ME3 ending. No, we still know very little of the Kett. They wouldn't be the first conquerors in history that started by running from something bigger. Not case closed I'm afraid. We cannot conclude that Andromeda is safe, and will continue to be safe from synthetics because we have not seen Andromeda at any great length. If we had a galaxy map like the OT then maybe we'd know - but we don't.
|
|
Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,664 Likes: 6,633
inherit
Agent 46
177
0
Mar 29, 2024 10:27:19 GMT
6,633
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,664
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
|
Post by Gileadan on Jan 26, 2021 9:18:24 GMT
The synthetics vs organics conflict always leading to synthetics exterminating all organics is not very logical in itself.
If I understood it correctly, it claims that synthetics will one day become self aware and develop the ability to learn and improve themselves beyond their original programming, thus technologically outpacing organics until they are victorious in some unavoidable conflict with organics, killing them all in the process.
However, the fact that this conflict is said to be inevitable and always ends with synthetics killing all organics seems to hint at the fact that synthetics still follow predetermined behaviour patterns that cannot be altered, like a present day CPU always producing the same sequence of "random" numbers from the same seed. There is apparently no version of this conflict where it never happens, where synthetics lose, or win and then show mercy and make sure this never happens again because, you know, they learned and improved themselves until they became superior to organics in more ways than just being better killers. Much like the reapers, who can only do the same thing over and over again, like machines.
Then there's all that nonsense about the reapers claiming to be so smart that organics just can't hope to ever understand them, yet during the entire trilogy all the reapers do is based on the application of a lot of brute force and you never, ever feel like you were just outsmarted by a superior intellect.
But hey, video game writing...
|
|
inherit
265
0
11,980
Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
7,910
August 2016
catastrophy
caustic_agent
|
Post by Pounce de León on Jan 26, 2021 11:19:53 GMT
The reapers are gonks.
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Jan 26, 2021 15:20:46 GMT
Who cares if large swathes are ruled by AI races? Aside from multitude of kett logs found discussing their Empire but saying nothing of this, the brat said all the organics would be destroyed without the Reapers, and they aren't in MEA. Case closed In fact, the most "advanced" race we know of in Andromeda, one with a massive Empire of at least 12 vassal races, is fairly primitive compared to evrn the organic MW races (No AI of their own comparable to SAM, no biotics). Any AI of any capability should knock them on their ass quite easily, especially given their goofy reproductive method would be useless against an army of machines. Yet they've survived, despite a seeming antipathy for AI's. Reapers also seemingly caused the Rachni Wars, which led to that species ultimate extinction and the krogan genophage (which is causing their extinction too). Why did they do that? How does that serve their mandate? They also interfere on the side of the geth, and without outside intervention from our side, would've got the quarians all killed in space (not harvested, killed, as happens in the bad Rannoch arc ending) which seems the exact opposite thing they should be doing if they wanna preserve organics from synths. It seems more like they just do chaotic evil things for the sake of it. Then Mac Walters decided he'd show the world his artistic genius in the last 20 minutes and we get the ME3 ending. No, we still know very little of the Kett. They wouldn't be the first conquerors in history that started by running from something bigger. Not case closed I'm afraid. We cannot conclude that Andromeda is safe, and will continue to be safe from synthetics because we have not seen Andromeda at any great length. If we had a galaxy map like the OT then maybe we'd know - but we don't. Uh huh, and we can't disprove the flying spaghetti monster either. Someguy said it's a supernatural being and its powers are beyond our comprehension, beyond the need of any form of physical evidence. I can confirm this guy is right despite him not showing or citing any of the data that led to his conclusion, because he said so. This behavior is cult like. No evidence, (despite an entire 90+ hours worth of game to provide anything, as small as a codex or database entry) but you lot still creating supposition as to how something ridiculous could be true. Even after Bio have abandoned and quietly swept under the rug their psuedo intellectual "art" ending for their game series about giant people eating purple robot monsters that turn people into goo.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
May 27, 2023 15:25:28 GMT
440
kalreegar
395
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Jan 26, 2021 15:30:11 GMT
Andromeda Galaxy proved that the catalyst's (better: the leviathan's) assumptions were very wrong.
Organics will not necessarly create synthetics that will eventually destroy them all (advanced organics AND non advanced organics).
No reapers in Andromeda to cyclically "reset" technology and harvest advanced (and thus, dangerous) civilizations... still, organic life still exists.
The Catalyst's logic was perfectly fine. His axioms/starting assumpions were wrong.
Huge difference.
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Jan 26, 2021 15:41:39 GMT
The synthetics vs organics conflict always leading to synthetics exterminating all organics is not very logical in itself. If I understood it correctly, it claims that synthetics will one day become self aware and develop the ability to learn and improve themselves beyond their original programming, thus technologically outpacing organics until they are victorious in some unavoidable conflict with organics, killing them all in the process. However, the fact that this conflict is said to be inevitable and always ends with synthetics killing all organics seems to hint at the fact that synthetics still follow predetermined behaviour patterns that cannot be altered, like a present day CPU always producing the same sequence of "random" numbers from the same seed. There is apparently no version of this conflict where it never happens, where synthetics lose, or win and then show mercy and make sure this never happens again because, you know, they learned and improved themselves until they became superior to organics in more ways than just being better killers. Much like the reapers, who can only do the same thing over and over again, like machines. Then there's all that nonsense about the reapers claiming to be so smart that organics just can't hope to ever understand them, yet during the entire trilogy all the reapers do is based on the application of a lot of brute force and you never, ever feel like you were just outsmarted by a superior intellect. But hey, video game writing... Indeed, despite being supposedly advanced lifeforms the AIs across all cycles sure do come to the "kill everything made of meat" conclusion with a degree of certainty akin to something that can't actually think for itself even as well as most animals. Even dogs can be trained not to attack humans or the family cat. Plenty of Earth predators in nature that used to pose a constant threat to humans, but as we evolved we haven't depopulated the planet of all animal life not related to our sustenance (so chickens, cows, pigs etc). Indeed we take great efforts to protect endangered lesser species that, given the chance, would try to kill and eat us 100% of the time. And humans are pretty stupid on average. How dumb are these ME robots? Can live in deep space or extreme conditions where no meatbag can even reach them, yet still gotta murder all the meatbag because .....reasons? Also if the Catalyst AI has the ability to predict such complex events with such random variables and end up with the same result at 100% certainty, then it must have come up with some formula that we can test I mean political scientists and sociologists in our world have formulae (using calculus and symbolic logic) that can predict events with reasonable certainty ~50% depending on the complexity. Surely the super duper smart, billion year old AI can do better than that. Oh forgot, "tHeRe Is NoT eNoUgH tImE tO eXpLaIn". Why not? Shouldn't take long for one of my AIs to run your numbers. EDI is pretty quick. Lemme fly her over here. Will 10 minutes really make a difference? Hey you control the Reapers can't you just tell them to stop for like half an hour? Sounds like bad writing theory.
|
|
inherit
115
0
Mar 25, 2024 23:52:17 GMT
2,711
capn233
1,708
August 2016
capn233
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by capn233 on Jan 26, 2021 22:45:33 GMT
Probably can't be about that since Shepard destroyed all the synthetics at the end of ME3.
ME5 is going to be about a cult of biotic extremists trying to resurrect the Reapers.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 26, 2021 23:37:04 GMT
Imagine getting this worked up over this shit in 2021. It's only a testament to how bad it is, that 9 years later, we are still talking about it. As I've said, Bioware cannot wait it out. People will continue to give them shit about it. It's just how it is. It's not going to stop. You can bet, 20 years from now, we will still be talking about it. If it hasn't gone away after nine, it's never going away.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Mar 29, 2024 11:31:41 GMT
24,146
themikefest
14,765
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Jan 26, 2021 23:38:39 GMT
Shepard: Before I shoot the tube, I have questions, or at the very least observations about what you said. You say the chaos will return, if I destroy your toys, but if I die of old age without the chaos returning, then I would say you're wrong. When you say we control him, meaning TIM, you mean you controlled him. You also controlled the group that sabotaged the crucible during the prothean cycle. Why? Is it because you knew it could destroy you? Look at Cerberus. You controlled TIM having him say control is the way to go knowing he would never be able to.
thing: you are wr----
Shepard: SHUTUP THING. Never interrupt me when I'm monologuing. Where was I? Oh, right.
You say you're harvesting organics to put in reaper form, then put the reapers in harm's way. Does that mean when a reaper is destroyed, your solution failed? I would say so, yet you continue with your current solution. Do you know how many of your toys have been destroyed since Harbinger was built?
The reapers are there to stop the machines from wiping out the organics. From what I've learned, you are the ones who instigate the conflict. During the prothean cycle, they were dealing with the machines fairly well, but you stepped in siding with the machines. You did the same in this cycle by recruiting the geth to fight the quarians even though they were dealing with the geth without too much problem. It seems like the problem is you for not sitting back and letting the organics deal with the problem. I wouldn't be surprised if most, if not all, previous cycles were able to deal with the machines, but you stepped in to side with the machines.
I met your creator, Levy the Loser. Unfortunately for all cycles, your creator suffered from politician syndrome, the big head. Had they put shackles on you, none of this might not have happened. You were created to solve a problem, but didn't. At the same time, you let the problem continue by being the problem. In other words, there was no problem except the one with your creator who needed all the thralls possible to fan it while soaking up some rays on the beach. I would have loved to see the look on your creators face when it noticed the giant blender coming at him realizing they forgot to put restrictions/shackles on you.
Now for the funny part. Your favorite the green crap that you buttered up so much. You say it can't be forced. If I were to choose it, I would be forcing it. So you're wrong about that. You say it's the final evolution for all life. I guess that means I won't evolve anymore than what I have now. My dna will change. Why would I want that? I would guess all organics would not want that. If it does happen, then have it happen naturally. Not by some hocus-pocus crap. But you don't care. You want to know why? Because the green allows you to remain after it's chosen. Since you control the reapers, would that mean you control the organics as well?
Now I will end by mentioning the crucible. You tell me I don't need to know who came up with the plans, but at the same time say there's not enough time to explain? I would guess you don't know who designed the plans. You did say you only knew about it for several cycles. When you tell me about the choices, you go into some detail. How do you know what it can do? Are you reading from the user manual? Hate to break to you thing, put I too have a user manual as well except it was given by the ones who built it. Remember the visions you stuck in my head? Well my user manual doesn't have that. What it has is there's a red button....ah yes, right over there to push to destroy you and your toys. One last thing. It wasn't you that created a solution, it was organics. You were just a broken record.
thing: your confidence will be your un----
Shepard: and boom. That felt good. Now to get out of here.
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Jan 27, 2021 0:57:16 GMT
Also would like to point out that the Crucible, via its magic writer fiat ability to target "all synethetics", solves the supposed organic-synthetic problem.
After you kill the Reapers with it, just rebuild the thing, hook it up to the Citadel, put one low paid guard next to the tube and give him a gun and cell phone. Could be literally anyone. Hire Conrad Verner, he'd probably do it for free if you told him he's saving the galaxy
Build any AIs you want. If the machines start to revolt, send the text "shoot it".
(Maybe mention to Conrad to stand like 10m back, so he doesn't get blown up like Shep)
Kablamo, repeat as many times as necessary. No more synthetic apocalypse problems for all of history.
Pretty hilarious how the writers, in trying to put a downside on Destroy so it isn't the obvious choice over their green horror world, gave their deus ex machina a magical synthetic nullifier capability that fucked up their own goofy logic even more.
|
|
inherit
1227
0
3,657
Phantom
2,652
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Phantom on Jan 27, 2021 1:04:31 GMT
I don't know which is worse the Cerberus becoming the Second Coming of the Sith Empire or the Starbrat. there are many ways to have infighting within the ME3 Reaper Wars than have 1 entire faction going 5th Column on us. For example having the Asari having a Civil War with each other because Reaper Sleeper Agents on both sides of the Asari Civil war would interesting. Or a Rash of Suicide Bombings on the Citadel and other hubs. Or Helping Krogans and Turians to find Reaper Sleeper Agents within their ranks. Or Stopping a Rogue STG Squad from unleashing a Bio-weapon on an important world.
Having Several actual Reaper Cults forming around individual Reapers and strive to stop Shepard at various points.
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 3,467
inherit
9886
0
3,467
ahglock
2,859
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Jan 27, 2021 2:10:12 GMT
Andromeda Galaxy proved that the catalyst's (better: the leviathan's) assumptions were very wrong. Organics will not necessarly create synthetics that will eventually destroy them all (advanced organics AND non advanced organics). No reapers in Andromeda to cyclically "reset" technology and harvest advanced (and thus, dangerous) civilizations... still, organic life still exists. The Catalyst's logic was perfectly fine. His axioms/starting assumpions were wrong. Huge difference. Andromeda has yet to prove anything. It is a much younger galaxy so may not have developed AI enough to do this. The remnant are pretty basic AI, and everyone else seems to virtually not know that AI exist outside the remnant except in theory. Kett don't seem to have them or they'd use them to solve the remnant problem, the Angara at one time made one maybe and it seems as advanced as the murder bot that hacked the gambling place on the citadel in ME1 but they currently don't seem to have one either. The remnant are attacked by some mysterious force so maybe the scourge is this galaxies solution to AI, whether it lasts is unknown as again this is a much younger galaxy. The catalysts assumptions may have been wrong but he had 10s of millions of years of examples where it played out according to its assumptions.
A story point can both be dumb and work in the setting. They crammed it in in a way that works but the idea is just played out and dumb. And yes eventually maybe it is proven wrong, sort of. Like sure yeah maybe it can work out but if 1,000 times in a row it doesn't does it working out on 1001 prove the assumption is actually wrong when you are planning to deal with it?
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Jan 27, 2021 2:31:45 GMT
I don't know which is worse the Cerberus becoming the Second Coming of the Sith Empire or the Starbrat. there are many ways to have infighting within the ME3 Reaper Wars than have 1 entire faction going 5th Column on us. For example having the Asari having a Civil War with each other because Reaper Sleeper Agents on both sides of the Asari Civil war would interesting. Or a Rash of Suicide Bombings on the Citadel and other hubs. Or Helping Krogans and Turians to find Reaper Sleeper Agents within their ranks. Or Stopping a Rogue STG Squad from unleashing a Bio-weapon on an important world. Having Several actual Reaper Cults forming around individual Reapers and strive to stop Shepard at various points. I want to fight the STG. These silly ass frogs love their experimentations and doing shady shit in the jungle, and from what we’ve seen, they seemed to suffer the least in the reaper war. This puts them in a prime position to start making power plays in secret, especially if it turns out that the genophage cure is a canon decision. Like, imagine these guys trying to do more with the yagh or something else.
|
|
inherit
1227
0
3,657
Phantom
2,652
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Phantom on Jan 27, 2021 3:51:20 GMT
I don't know which is worse the Cerberus becoming the Second Coming of the Sith Empire or the Starbrat. there are many ways to have infighting within the ME3 Reaper Wars than have 1 entire faction going 5th Column on us. For example having the Asari having a Civil War with each other because Reaper Sleeper Agents on both sides of the Asari Civil war would interesting. Or a Rash of Suicide Bombings on the Citadel and other hubs. Or Helping Krogans and Turians to find Reaper Sleeper Agents within their ranks. Or Stopping a Rogue STG Squad from unleashing a Bio-weapon on an important world. Having Several actual Reaper Cults forming around individual Reapers and strive to stop Shepard at various points. I want to fight the STG. These silly ass frogs love their experimentations and doing shady shit in the jungle, and from what we’ve seen, they seemed to suffer the least in the reaper war. This puts them in a prime position to start making power plays in secret, especially if it turns out that the genophage cure is a canon decision. Like, imagine these guys trying to do more with the yagh or something else. One of my ideas was having a Con Current Player Character to Shepard, taking down a Rogue STG team that was developing a bioweapon and selling it on the black market. That idea can work with any possible player character you can dream of.
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 3,467
inherit
9886
0
3,467
ahglock
2,859
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Jan 27, 2021 6:32:02 GMT
I don't know which is worse the Cerberus becoming the Second Coming of the Sith Empire or the Starbrat. there are many ways to have infighting within the ME3 Reaper Wars than have 1 entire faction going 5th Column on us. For example having the Asari having a Civil War with each other because Reaper Sleeper Agents on both sides of the Asari Civil war would interesting. Or a Rash of Suicide Bombings on the Citadel and other hubs. Or Helping Krogans and Turians to find Reaper Sleeper Agents within their ranks. Or Stopping a Rogue STG Squad from unleashing a Bio-weapon on an important world. Having Several actual Reaper Cults forming around individual Reapers and strive to stop Shepard at various points. I want to fight the STG. These silly ass frogs love their experimentations and doing shady shit in the jungle, and from what we’ve seen, they seemed to suffer the least in the reaper war. This puts them in a prime position to start making power plays in secret, especially if it turns out that the genophage cure is a canon decision. Like, imagine these guys trying to do more with the yagh or something else. I'd want to help them to some extent. Humanity first but Salarians second.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
May 27, 2023 15:25:28 GMT
440
kalreegar
395
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Jan 27, 2021 11:46:49 GMT
It is a much younger galaxy Is it? Younger? Why? Leviathan's was the first known advanced "galactic scale" civilization in the milky way. The Leviathan of Dis (so, late Leviathan's empire period) was nearly a billion years old. We should assume a similar timeline... advanced species emerging in andromeda 1-2-3 billion years ago too. It's unlikely that intelligent life and/or advanced civilization started to spawn around adromeda just 50-100-000 years ago. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possibile
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Jan 27, 2021 14:02:36 GMT
It is a much younger galaxy Is it? Younger? Why? Leviathan's was the first known advanced "galactic scale" civilization in the milky way. The Leviathan of Dis (so, late Leviathan's empire period) was nearly a billion years old. We should assume a similar timeline... advanced species emerging in andromeda 1-2-3 billion years ago too. It's unlikely that intelligent life and/or advanced civilization started to spawn around adromeda just 50-100-000 years ago. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possibile Andromeda is 10 billion years old to the MW's 13.5 billion. Not that this is ever stated to be relevant at any point. Brat doesn't say "oh and the galaxy has to be 11 billion years old before the galaxy killer AI shows up. If it's only 10 billion you're good" Humans only took 4.5 billion to form and evolve to the point of making AI's. There'd be thousands of sapient species that developed before humanity and made their own AIs in both galaxies, following a similar development. Yet none of those thousands of AIs was able to destroy organic life. Grasping at straws to justify crap writing. Again
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 3,467
inherit
9886
0
3,467
ahglock
2,859
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Jan 27, 2021 15:31:31 GMT
Is it? Younger? Why? Leviathan's was the first known advanced "galactic scale" civilization in the milky way. The Leviathan of Dis (so, late Leviathan's empire period) was nearly a billion years old. We should assume a similar timeline... advanced species emerging in andromeda 1-2-3 billion years ago too. It's unlikely that intelligent life and/or advanced civilization started to spawn around adromeda just 50-100-000 years ago. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possibile Andromeda is 10 billion years old to the MW's 13.5 billion. Not that this is ever stated to be relevant at any point. Brat doesn't say "oh and the galaxy has to be 11 billion years old before the galaxy killer AI shows up. If it's only 10 billion you're good" Humans only took 4.5 billion to form and evolve to the point of making AI's. There'd be thousands of sapient species that developed before humanity and made their own AIs in both galaxies, following a similar development. Yet none of those thousands of AIs was able to destroy organic life. Grasping at straws to justify crap writing. Again Just because you do not see the relevance does not making it grasping at straws. We get it you hate it, good for you. I think the story decision was bad as well. That does not mean it is illogical though.
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 3,467
inherit
9886
0
3,467
ahglock
2,859
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Jan 27, 2021 15:37:37 GMT
It is a much younger galaxy Is it? Younger? Why? Leviathan's was the first known advanced "galactic scale" civilization in the milky way. The Leviathan of Dis (so, late Leviathan's empire period) was nearly a billion years old. We should assume a similar timeline... advanced species emerging in andromeda 1-2-3 billion years ago too. It's unlikely that intelligent life and/or advanced civilization started to spawn around adromeda just 50-100-000 years ago. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possibile It is 3.5 billion years younger. So yes assuming their galaxy advanced in a similar scale they just now might be reaching advanced AI levels. The reapers have been rolling 1 billion year,s the leviathans what a billion before that, which gives a 1.5 billion buffer for them maybe advancing quicker and being where they are when we see them currently which is either no or limited AI in the races displayed.
|
|
Ascend
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 370 Likes: 492
inherit
3282
0
492
Ascend
370
February 2017
ascend
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Ascend on Jan 27, 2021 16:12:13 GMT
The 'reaper logic' as you call it, is sort of a paradox. It is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy that is both right and wrong.
It is true that organics develop technology to assist them in things that they themselves cannot do, or cannot do as quickly or as efficiently. It is true that if their technology develops self-awareness, becoming synthetic AI, the organics will be tremendously spooked, because they know immediately that they are at a disadvantage compared to the synthetics. It is highly likely that organics, in order to try and save themselves, will attempt to 'kill' the synthetics to try and stop the threat before the AI finds out it doesn't need or can overpower the organics. It is highly likely that the synthetics will retaliate in return.
And here it comes... The Leviathans saw this threat, and in order to avoid themselves from being killed by synthetics, they tried to develop an AI (surprise surprise) that would save them from their own technology, which we know as the Catalyst (I actually think that Shepard is the catalyst, but that's another story for another time). Ironically, the AI determined that in order to "save" the Leviathans, it had to 'preserve' them, like storing data on a hard drive. Because if they were not preserved, they would eventually die out. And for that, they could not keep their organic forms, but needed to be converted into what we know as reapers.
In a way, the existence of the Catalyst by itself proves that he's right. Because the one AI developed to actually solve the problem, actually contributed to it. However... This is its own issue, exactly because this AI was developed for this purpose. If no AI was developed to 'save' the organics, the organics would probably not need saving.
Organics have the choice of advancing technology to solve problems that would otherwise be impossible to solve, or, leave certain problems unsolved. As long as their tech remains non-sentient, it is all fine and dandy. The moment that AI arises, SHTF. What becomes central here, is the fear organics have. If they were not afraid of their own synthetics, they would probably not die out. But organics cannot completely eradicate this fear, so, the only solution would be to not develop synthetic AI at all. Or space magic green mumbo jumbo apparently...
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 3,467
inherit
9886
0
3,467
ahglock
2,859
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Jan 27, 2021 16:42:14 GMT
I'm not sure every time its organics who start it, the problem with the catalyst and well AI at least how it is presented in fiction is they are creatures of pure logic. And logic taken out to the extreme can be horrific. So maybe one group the organics love their AI, but the AI determine organics are just a drain on resources and liquidate them for the greater good. Other times organics fear the potential of beings of logic and attack and get killed.
|
|