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Post by Ascend on Jan 27, 2021 17:34:34 GMT
I'm not sure every time its organics who start it, the problem with the catalyst and well AI at least how it is presented in fiction is they are creatures of pure logic. And logic taken out to the extreme can be horrific. So maybe one group the organics love their AI, but the AI determine organics are just a drain on resources and liquidate them for the greater good. Other times organics fear the potential of beings of logic and attack and get killed. Sure. But in both those scenarios, the organics basically get killed lol.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 27, 2021 17:44:51 GMT
Sure. But in both those scenarios, the organics basically get killed lol. I don't know. Synthetics do not necessarily rely on the things we do, to feel threatened by us. It is quite possibly that the synthetics we develop, once perfected, will just fuck off, leaving us alone to our devices, as they populate a space station, somewhere in deep space and survive the heat death of the universe. They probably wouldn't think twice of us, no more than we think of ants in the countryside. Like, if we got close enough, they might get territorial, once they outgrow us, but I doubt they'd find the use for war against us, unless we actively seek hostility.
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Post by Radec on Jan 27, 2021 18:20:49 GMT
Andromeda is 10 billion years old to the MW's 13.5 billion. Not that this is ever stated to be relevant at any point. Brat doesn't say "oh and the galaxy has to be 11 billion years old before the galaxy killer AI shows up. If it's only 10 billion you're good" Humans only took 4.5 billion to form and evolve to the point of making AI's. There'd be thousands of sapient species that developed before humanity and made their own AIs in both galaxies, following a similar development. Yet none of those thousands of AIs was able to destroy organic life. Grasping at straws to justify crap writing. Again Just because you do not see the relevance does not making it grasping at straws. We get it you hate it, good for you. I think the story decision was bad as well. That does not mean it is illogical though. There is no relevance. You are simply trying to fill in gaping plot holes with wishful headcanon. I dislike the ME3 Reaper plot it because it's built on a ridiculous premise I.e that hyper intelligent AIs, with the capacity for reason and ethics (as demonstrated by the geth), are incapable of coming to a similar arrangement with lesser organics than we have come to with predatory animals on our own planet, i.e. one not involving total extinction), despite having an even easier time due to lacking the limitations of said organics (they don't even need a planet, could find an asteroid field to draw resources from out in dark space where they'd never be bothered). Even if the premise weren't retarded and based on zero shown evidence, it doesn't even follow it's own internal logic. Why is the bratalyst trying to stop the creation of the magic Crucible given every one of its outcomes is an instant I win button that solves its organic-synthetic "problem" forever? I have tolerance for goofy video game plots (see ME2 and MEA) as long as they remain simple and mostly internally consistent, but ME3 is next level bad. It's the pinnacle of over complicated, intellectually barren shlock masquerading as pretentious, highfalutin "art". It expects me to be in awe just because it subverted muh expectations and did something different (that sucks and makes no sense). The game equivalent of TLJ
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 27, 2021 18:35:07 GMT
Oh look, it's this argument again. Lol. 😆
*Grabs popcorn and vodka*
Please, continue.
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Post by Radec on Jan 27, 2021 22:12:45 GMT
Oh look, it's this argument again. Lol. 😆 *Grabs popcorn and vodka* Please, continue. The brat says all synths are basically Necrons. Even tho the only ones we've seen are these cuddly pacifist flashlight heads who couldn't even handle an attack by a few million sickly nerd xenos without running to get upgrades from robot Cthulu. And the protheans were beating their synths too, again until Cthulu shows up to help its little toaster buddies. Seems legit tho
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 27, 2021 22:55:54 GMT
I like the idea that if the Quarians had successfully eradicated the geth on Rannoch, it proves that the synthetic/organic conflict doesn’t spell certain doom for the latter. After all, the whole point was that organics are guaranteed to be annihilated, but how can that be true if the bubble babies managed to bring the killbots to their knees?
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Post by ahglock on Jan 28, 2021 0:35:38 GMT
I like the idea that if the Quarians had successfully eradicated the geth on Rannoch, it proves that the synthetic/organic conflict doesn’t spell certain doom for the latter. After all, the whole point was that organics are guaranteed to be annihilated, but how can that be true if the bubble babies managed to bring the killbots to their knees?
Well the theory would be just because you beat this batch of Murder bots does not mean you will beat the next. The Geth were primed for mass destruction on some level since they were all networked together, one virus either fixes or killed all the heretics similar shit can happen to the rest. I think the story is sure, sometimes organics win one conflict here and there but in the end murder bots always win.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 28, 2021 0:45:29 GMT
I like the idea that if the Quarians had successfully eradicated the geth on Rannoch, it proves that the synthetic/organic conflict doesn’t spell certain doom for the latter. After all, the whole point was that organics are guaranteed to be annihilated, but how can that be true if the bubble babies managed to bring the killbots to their knees?
Well the theory would be just because you beat this batch of Murder bots does not mean you will beat the next. The Geth were primed for mass destruction on some level since they were all networked together, one virus either fixes or killed all the heretics similar shit can happen to the rest. I think the story is sure, sometimes organics win one conflict here and there but in the end murder bots always win.
It’s too bad that the story is a complete failure in that it insists on telling yet never showing. As far as we’re concerned, the reapers are the sole example of machines always winning. The protheans were apparently turning the tide during the metacon war, but of course the reapers intervened. The quarians were on the verge of ridding Rannoch of the geth, until, yet again, the reapers showed up. In other instances, the machines are hijacked or at least recruited synthetics to do their bidding, like what the reapers did to the Zha’til, or trying to turn an organic race against everyone like they attempted with the rachni. Even the Leviathan, who are not at all reliable themselves, started going on about unnamed races facing down their own machines and apparently being destroyed, yet just about the only consistent example of total annihilation by synthetics all happens to be the result of that singular entity they created. We’re supposed to rely on the guarantee of oblivion if organics are allowed to continue unfettered, all the while the story suggesting the exact opposite.
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Post by Radec on Jan 28, 2021 0:55:59 GMT
I like the idea that if the Quarians had successfully eradicated the geth on Rannoch, it proves that the synthetic/organic conflict doesn’t spell certain doom for the latter. After all, the whole point was that organics are guaranteed to be annihilated, but how can that be true if the bubble babies managed to bring the killbots to their knees? Yeah, not only getting beat but by one of the smallest, weakest races in the cycle. I just remembered that the Protheans actually wiped out the Zha'til as well. If you bring Javik on the Geth Dreadnought, he says they sent the Zha'til star into supernova aliens.fandom.com/wiki/Zha%27tilSo synthetics are 0-2 against meatbags in terms of conflicts we actually know of. Massive failure of the show, don't tell principle. I'd expect elementary school kids to be better at narrative writing.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jan 28, 2021 2:12:20 GMT
Well the theory would be just because you beat this batch of Murder bots does not mean you will beat the next. The Geth were primed for mass destruction on some level since they were all networked together, one virus either fixes or killed all the heretics similar shit can happen to the rest. I think the story is sure, sometimes organics win one conflict here and there but in the end murder bots always win.
It’s too bad that the story is a complete failure in that it insists on telling yet never showing. As far as we’re concerned, the reapers are the sole example of machines always winning. The protheans were apparently turning the tide during the metacon war, but of course the reapers intervened. The quarians were on the verge of ridding Rannoch of the geth, until, yet again, the reapers showed up. In other instances, the machines are hijacked or at least recruited synthetics to do their bidding, like what the reapers did to the Zha’til, or trying to turn an organic race against everyone like they attempted with the rachni. Even the Leviathan, who are not at all reliable themselves, started going on about unnamed races facing down their own machines and apparently being destroyed, yet just about the only consistent example of total annihilation by synthetics all happens to be the result of that singular entity they created. We’re supposed to rely on the guarantee of oblivion if organics are allowed to continue unfettered, all the while the story suggesting the exact opposite. Yeah, it wasn't a good choice to go with and while the theme is done repeatedly throughout the trilogy there is no indication that is what they are about until Leviathan, and leviathan just related a tale to you, and the next time you get any clue this is what they are about it the end where again the catalyst just relates the tale. So while we know thanks to the DLC the leviathans saw it play out countless times at a individual species level at least level without fail, it is never shown in the game over the 3 games.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 28, 2021 15:43:27 GMT
Oh look, it's this argument again. Lol. 😆 *Grabs popcorn and vodka* Please, continue. The brat says all synths are basically Necrons. Even tho the only ones we've seen are these cuddly pacifist flashlight heads who couldn't even handle an attack by a few million sickly nerd xenos without running to get upgrades from robot Cthulu. And the protheans were beating their synths too, again until Cthulu shows up to help its little toaster buddies. Seems legit tho Lol, if the Necrons actually showed up in the ME universe, the Reapers would be totally screwed. 😆
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Post by Radec on Jan 28, 2021 20:47:46 GMT
The brat says all synths are basically Necrons. Even tho the only ones we've seen are these cuddly pacifist flashlight heads who couldn't even handle an attack by a few million sickly nerd xenos without running to get upgrades from robot Cthulu. And the protheans were beating their synths too, again until Cthulu shows up to help its little toaster buddies. Seems legit tho Lol, if the Necrons actually showed up in the ME universe, the Reapers would be totally screwed. 😆 One Carin class tombship would probably be able to wipe all them out In fact every faction in 40k would probably roll over the Reapers in a week or so. They're nearly as small as a Destroyer in that universe. Imperium Battleships are about 10km long on average. That's before getting into even bigger fish like the Ark Mechanicus :3
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 29, 2021 11:24:45 GMT
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Post by Phantom on Jan 30, 2021 1:05:00 GMT
Lol, if the Necrons actually showed up in the ME universe, the Reapers would be totally screwed. 😆 One Carin class tombship would probably be able to wipe all them out In fact every faction in 40k would probably roll over the Reapers in a week or so. They're nearly as small as a Destroyer in that universe. Imperium Battleships are about 10km long on average. That's before getting into even bigger fish like the Ark Mechanicus :3 Well i am bored and for science and see everyone groan, do you want to derail this thread to a proper Warhammer 40k thread?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 30, 2021 2:40:36 GMT
Using an AI. Also, the bots aren't the things I'm talking about. Who created this Remnant technology? The Jardaan? Were they organic? Why did they disappear? Were they wiped out? Why is all that's left of them synthetic? When all of these questions remain unanswered then the hypothesis in ME3 has not been proved wrong at all. There's nothing in MEA stopping Bioware from bringing back the organic-synthetics dichotomy in a hypothetical MEA2. The hypothesis (more of a prophecy, as it isnt based on any previous evidence we're aware of) has been disproven by MEA's worldstate. Starbrat: "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics" Cue MEA, we find two highly advanced, seperate organic species in the same tiny cluster. One of them has even been making AI for hundreds of years (the one we find on Voeld) and hasn't been killed by it yet, the other existed alongside the Jaardan and has outlived them (meaning if Jaardan were synthetics, they're yet another example of failure in the Reaper logic). Further, I dont even know why you lot are still attempting to shift the burden of proof for the Reaper claims. We still don't have a single instance of robots destroying all organic life in a galaxy (other than the Reapers themselves, fulfilling their own prophecy). We have two seperate instances of them failing to do so (Zhatil and Geth, in both cases they needed Reaper assistance against the organics), and one whole galaxy (Andromeda) supporting advanced organic life that still hasn't fallen to synthetics after 10 billion years. Reapers never sufficiently proved their claim, and given all the evidence we have goes against it, why should it even be entertained?
The AI has no memory of the Angara and in all cases acts hostile towards organic life. If given to the Nexus it purposefully creates problems and asks SAM how to vent all the atmosphere from the Nexus. It also expresses a desire to see the Angara wiped out and mocks Ryder for not including it in their objectives. If given to the Angara it engages in almost no conversation, insults the Angara and wishes to be killed and that a volcano would erupt and wipe out the city.
The Angara also have no memory of ever creating AI before. The Angara are also a synthetically created organic race. They did not evolve on their home planet over millions of years. The Jardaan created the Angara and scattered them on planets across the Cluster. If this means they created the Angara and simply left them in primitive states to develop from flint arrows into space flight or they were deposited with a base line knowledge of technology and a prebuild history programed into their minds is up for debate.
Morning War that the Quarians only survived because of indirect Reaper interference. The Metacon War that required the Protheans forcibly unite all organic life in the galaxy under their banner to turn back the tied of the war in their favor. The half a dozen or so races during Leviathan's time that were wiped out by their synthetic creations. So we have 3 data points.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 30, 2021 3:18:15 GMT
Morning War that the Quarians only survived because of indirect Reaper interference.
Source?
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 30, 2021 3:26:41 GMT
Well the theory would be just because you beat this batch of Murder bots does not mean you will beat the next. The Geth were primed for mass destruction on some level since they were all networked together, one virus either fixes or killed all the heretics similar shit can happen to the rest. I think the story is sure, sometimes organics win one conflict here and there but in the end murder bots always win.
It’s too bad that the story is a complete failure in that it insists on telling yet never showing. As far as we’re concerned, the reapers are the sole example of machines always winning. The protheans were apparently turning the tide during the metacon war, but of course the reapers intervened. The quarians were on the verge of ridding Rannoch of the geth, until, yet again, the reapers showed up. In other instances, the machines are hijacked or at least recruited synthetics to do their bidding, like what the reapers did to the Zha’til, or trying to turn an organic race against everyone like they attempted with the rachni. Even the Leviathan, who are not at all reliable themselves, started going on about unnamed races facing down their own machines and apparently being destroyed, yet just about the only consistent example of total annihilation by synthetics all happens to be the result of that singular entity they created. We’re supposed to rely on the guarantee of oblivion if organics are allowed to continue unfettered, all the while the story suggesting the exact opposite. Well, we're only supposed to rely on that if we assume that the Catalyst isn't just the latest Bio bad guy who was simply wrong about everything. (Unless that's Corypheus.) Yeah, the premise of the thread just isn't working for me.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 30, 2021 3:47:08 GMT
Morning War that the Quarians only survived because of indirect Reaper interference.
Source?
The Reapers created the Relay system as well as left the scraps for Mass Effect technology to be found and reverse engineered by each new cycle. No mass effect tech means either much slower or no FTL travel which means from system to system is like ye olden days of horse or sail boat taking days or weeks to travel the distance we now travel in cars or boat in hours.
It is debatable if the original ships in the Migrant Fleet were prepared ships fully stocked as a just in case moment. Or if they were simply all the ships that were left of the Quarian fleets that were decimated by the Geth. This is more of a question to how much manufaturing capabilities were put on those ships. Ships that were created for a worse case evacuation would be fully stocked for such a situation. While simple war ships wouldn't be given anything but the most basic needed for minor repairs between dry dock visits.
Either way the mass effect technology and the Relays allowed the Quarians to leave their former territory and enter into the Council and associated race's territories. They were able to utilize the developed infrastructure to buy, trade, and sell their goods, services and what not for ships, repairs, fuel, etc. That infrastructure also only existing because of the tech left behind by the Reapers.
Either way throwing a few million people on some ships and blindly jumping at sub light or even light speed with no way to resupply, repair or exploit resources found in space would just be a slow death as system after system slowly fails because they simply can't repair it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 30, 2021 3:50:17 GMT
Morning War that the Quarians only survived because of indirect Reaper interference.
The geth consensus establishes that the quarians only survived because the geth decided not to pursue as they fled from the Veil. The reapers only ever interfered when the quarians returned to Rannoch to destroy the geth. It wouldn’t matter what technologies influenced the rest of the galaxy, because these technologies influence the geth just like anyone else. If they wanted, they could have hunted the quarians to extinction across the galaxy using the same relay network everyone else did. It wasn’t until Sovereign’s intervention that any geth left the Veil.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 30, 2021 4:03:15 GMT
Morning War that the Quarians only survived because of indirect Reaper interference.
The geth consensus establishes that the quarians only survived because the geth decided not to pursue as they fled from the Veil. The reapers only ever interfered when the quarians returned to Rannoch to destroy the geth. It wouldn’t matter what technologies influenced the rest of the galaxy, because these technologies influence the geth just like anyone else. If they wanted, they could have hunted the quarians to extinction across the galaxy using the same relay network everyone else did. It wasn’t until Sovereign’s intervention that any geth left the Veil. The Reapers created the Relay system as well as left the scraps for Mass Effect technology to be found and reverse engineered by each new cycle. No mass effect tech means either much slower or no FTL travel which means from system to system is like ye olden days of horse or sail boat taking days or weeks to travel the distance we now travel in cars or boat in hours. It is debatable if the original ships in the Migrant Fleet were prepared ships fully stocked as a just in case moment. Or if they were simply all the ships that were left of the Quarian fleets that were decimated by the Geth. This is more of a question to how much manufaturing capabilities were put on those ships. Ships that were created for a worse case evacuation would be fully stocked for such a situation. While simple war ships wouldn't be given anything but the most basic needed for minor repairs between dry dock visits. Either way the mass effect technology and the Relays allowed the Quarians to leave their former territory and enter into the Council and associated race's territories. They were able to utilize the developed infrastructure to buy, trade, and sell their goods, services and what not for ships, repairs, fuel, etc. That infrastructure also only existing because of the tech left behind by the Reapers. Either way throwing a few million people on some ships and blindly jumping at sub light or even light speed with no way to resupply, repair or exploit resources found in space would just be a slow death as system after system slowly fails because they simply can't repair it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jan 30, 2021 6:02:32 GMT
What's funny is the creation of the relay system is what made the AI/organic conflict one of all life in the galaxy wiped out issue probable. I mean it was always possible, but for the most part species X developed AI, AI revolts and kills species X, AI is kind of trapped there for the most part due to travel limitations. Leviathan sends in clean up. Once the relays are in place, the AI can instantly spread around the galaxy and the AI problem is not self contained to one species.
Though AI might hide, build up and find a way to overcome the lack of relays on their own. making it a potential threat even if unlikely, but over a billion years, shit happens I guess.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 30, 2021 6:42:07 GMT
The geth consensus establishes that the quarians only survived because the geth decided not to pursue as they fled from the Veil. The reapers only ever interfered when the quarians returned to Rannoch to destroy the geth. It wouldn’t matter what technologies influenced the rest of the galaxy, because these technologies influence the geth just like anyone else. If they wanted, they could have hunted the quarians to extinction across the galaxy using the same relay network everyone else did. It wasn’t until Sovereign’s intervention that any geth left the Veil. The Reapers created the Relay system as well as left the scraps for Mass Effect technology to be found and reverse engineered by each new cycle. No mass effect tech means either much slower or no FTL travel which means from system to system is like ye olden days of horse or sail boat taking days or weeks to travel the distance we now travel in cars or boat in hours. It is debatable if the original ships in the Migrant Fleet were prepared ships fully stocked as a just in case moment. Or if they were simply all the ships that were left of the Quarian fleets that were decimated by the Geth. This is more of a question to how much manufaturing capabilities were put on those ships. Ships that were created for a worse case evacuation would be fully stocked for such a situation. While simple war ships wouldn't be given anything but the most basic needed for minor repairs between dry dock visits. Either way the mass effect technology and the Relays allowed the Quarians to leave their former territory and enter into the Council and associated race's territories. They were able to utilize the developed infrastructure to buy, trade, and sell their goods, services and what not for ships, repairs, fuel, etc. That infrastructure also only existing because of the tech left behind by the Reapers. Either way throwing a few million people on some ships and blindly jumping at sub light or even light speed with no way to resupply, repair or exploit resources found in space would just be a slow death as system after system slowly fails because they simply can't repair it. That's fine and good if that's what you want to go with, but I'm simply basing all of this on the information Shepard gets out of the consensus. It's established by the story itself that the Geth actively took it upon themselves to simply remain on Rannoch and hold off any pursuit of their creators. If we want to decide that the Geth are simply unreliable narrators here, that's another matter.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 30, 2021 6:43:19 GMT
What's funny is the creation of the relay system is what made the AI/organic conflict one of all life in the galaxy wiped out issue probable. I mean it was always possible, but for the most part species X developed AI, AI revolts and kills species X, AI is kind of trapped there for the most part due to travel limitations. Leviathan sends in clean up. Once the relays are in place, the AI can instantly spread around the galaxy and the AI problem is not self contained to one species. Though AI might hide, build up and find a way to overcome the lack of relays on their own. making it a potential threat even if unlikely, but over a billion years, shit happens I guess. The very act of speeding up technological progress taints the entire thing. It's the same issue as uplifting the Krogan, even though they weren't ready to become a spacefaring power.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jan 30, 2021 6:52:14 GMT
What's funny is the creation of the relay system is what made the AI/organic conflict one of all life in the galaxy wiped out issue probable. I mean it was always possible, but for the most part species X developed AI, AI revolts and kills species X, AI is kind of trapped there for the most part due to travel limitations. Leviathan sends in clean up. Once the relays are in place, the AI can instantly spread around the galaxy and the AI problem is not self contained to one species. Though AI might hide, build up and find a way to overcome the lack of relays on their own. making it a potential threat even if unlikely, but over a billion years, shit happens I guess. The very act of speeding up technological progress taints the entire thing. It's the same issue as uplifting the Krogan, even though they weren't ready to become a spacefaring power. Its not just speeding it up as well its along a specific path. If societies developed more freely they may develop without AI at all, or develop synthesis hand in hand with AI. Though I get the theory, 1 it makes people weaker as you are using crap versions of your tech, and 2 it allows you to plan cycles better as advancement will happen in a narrower and more predicable time frame, and 3 it makes people more visible as when the find the tech they will quickly discover the citadel.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 30, 2021 14:24:59 GMT
What's funny is the creation of the relay system is what made the AI/organic conflict one of all life in the galaxy wiped out issue probable. I mean it was always possible, but for the most part species X developed AI, AI revolts and kills species X, AI is kind of trapped there for the most part due to travel limitations. Leviathan sends in clean up. Once the relays are in place, the AI can instantly spread around the galaxy and the AI problem is not self contained to one species. Though AI might hide, build up and find a way to overcome the lack of relays on their own. making it a potential threat even if unlikely, but over a billion years, shit happens I guess. Actually it only increases the wipe out chances without the Relays network. As shown with Protheans as they had to unite all organic races to push back the synthetic race. On top of that synthetic population growth is only limited by manufacturing times. Synthetics are able to survive in the blackness between stars with only need for minerals and fuel that can be harvested from any near by asteroids or gas giants. They also do not need garden worlds so the use of atomic or bio engineered viruses wouldn't be off the table.
This is part of the issue I have with how the Geth are portrayed in the trilogy. Not only are their cyberwarfare capabilities never displayed fully unless plot demanded it. As ME1 and 3 threat Geth as nothing more then oddly shaped organic enemies. But they never really expand on their over all capabilities outside of a few instances.
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