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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 30, 2021 14:38:53 GMT
The Reapers created the Relay system as well as left the scraps for Mass Effect technology to be found and reverse engineered by each new cycle. No mass effect tech means either much slower or no FTL travel which means from system to system is like ye olden days of horse or sail boat taking days or weeks to travel the distance we now travel in cars or boat in hours. It is debatable if the original ships in the Migrant Fleet were prepared ships fully stocked as a just in case moment. Or if they were simply all the ships that were left of the Quarian fleets that were decimated by the Geth. This is more of a question to how much manufaturing capabilities were put on those ships. Ships that were created for a worse case evacuation would be fully stocked for such a situation. While simple war ships wouldn't be given anything but the most basic needed for minor repairs between dry dock visits. Either way the mass effect technology and the Relays allowed the Quarians to leave their former territory and enter into the Council and associated race's territories. They were able to utilize the developed infrastructure to buy, trade, and sell their goods, services and what not for ships, repairs, fuel, etc. That infrastructure also only existing because of the tech left behind by the Reapers. Either way throwing a few million people on some ships and blindly jumping at sub light or even light speed with no way to resupply, repair or exploit resources found in space would just be a slow death as system after system slowly fails because they simply can't repair it. That's fine and good if that's what you want to go with, but I'm simply basing all of this on the information Shepard gets out of the consensus. It's established by the story itself that the Geth actively took it upon themselves to simply remain on Rannoch and hold off any pursuit of their creators. If we want to decide that the Geth are simply unreliable narrators here, that's another matter. The Geth choosing to leave them alone or the Quarians simply escaping thought the Relay is irrelevant. The fact they suddenly crammed ships full of millions of civlians far beyond the capacity those ships would normally have and would have set off into the darkness of space on sub light drives or even low grade FTL would be a death sentence from sheer decay of their ships and lack of fuel.
Even the super high tech Star Trek with their replicators that can create materials out of thin air makes a clear distinction between the ones you see give Picard a cup of tea and the industrial ones needed to produce more complex and larger materials used for construction.
If those ships do not have the supplies to mine minerals from asteroids and planets, if they lack forges to refine those minerals and they lack the manufacturing ability to turn those refined minerals into circuit boards and structural supports or fuel. And while I could see some ships having small scale for dealing with minor issues and patches before they can put into dry dock for repairs. I do not see ships being equipped with the full manufacturing capabilities to allow a ship to leave into space and never return to any port for hundreds of years.
But I can see the Quarians post Morning War buying and upgrading ships with those capabilities bought from the wider galactic community to allow them to be self sufficient if necessary. But without relays that wider galactic community doesn't really exist. And traveling at sub light or low FTL would centuries of travel at sub light or decades at low FTL.
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Post by Radec on Jan 30, 2021 14:45:56 GMT
One Carin class tombship would probably be able to wipe all them out In fact every faction in 40k would probably roll over the Reapers in a week or so. They're nearly as small as a Destroyer in that universe. Imperium Battleships are about 10km long on average. That's before getting into even bigger fish like the Ark Mechanicus :3 Well i am bored and for science and see everyone groan, do you want to derail this thread to a proper Warhammer 40k thread? Love to. 40k is a great universe because the Tyranids are just, well tyranids. They dont exist because of some psuedo intellectual purpose that the writers cooked up in 8 seconds (and that fanboys have been slavishly defending for 8 years). They just wanna eat. Big hungry bugs. They don't eat because they're (aktcually) a solution that the old ones came up with to preserve life, and if they don't eat all organics the warp will explode and kill all organics so we gotta kill all the organics by eating them before the warp explodes and kills them. That'd be stupid. Fortunately 40k is less stupid than ME3
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 30, 2021 17:21:42 GMT
Well i am bored and for science and see everyone groan, do you want to derail this thread to a proper Warhammer 40k thread? Love to. 40k is a great universe because the Tyranids are just, well tyranids. They dont exist because of some psuedo intellectual purpose that the writers cooked up in 8 seconds (and that fanboys have been slavishly defending for 8 years). They just wanna eat. Big hungry bugs. They don't eat because they're (aktcually) a solution that the old ones came up with to preserve life, and if they don't eat all organics the warp will explode and kill all organics so we gotta kill all the organics by eating them before the warp explodes and kills them. That'd be stupid. Fortunately 40k is less stupid than ME3 Let's face it, most science fiction universes are better written then the Mass Effect universe is.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 30, 2021 18:08:58 GMT
Well i am bored and for science and see everyone groan, do you want to derail this thread to a proper Warhammer 40k thread? Love to. 40k is a great universe because the Tyranids are just, well tyranids. They dont exist because of some psuedo intellectual purpose that the writers cooked up in 8 seconds (and that fanboys have been slavishly defending for 8 years). They just wanna eat. Big hungry bugs. They don't eat because they're (aktcually) a solution that the old ones came up with to preserve life, and if they don't eat all organics the warp will explode and kill all organics so we gotta kill all the organics by eating them before the warp explodes and kills them. That'd be stupid. Fortunately 40k is less stupid than ME3 I do wish that the reapers had a more basic, straightforward need or desire that pitted us against them. Reaping to consume is a much better thing to contend with than something cockamamie like trying to save us from ourselves by killing us and turning us into some kind of cosmic horror resin. Being dumb is one thing, but dumb with extra steps is worse.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 30, 2021 18:14:32 GMT
Love to. 40k is a great universe because the Tyranids are just, well tyranids. They dont exist because of some psuedo intellectual purpose that the writers cooked up in 8 seconds (and that fanboys have been slavishly defending for 8 years). They just wanna eat. Big hungry bugs. They don't eat because they're (aktcually) a solution that the old ones came up with to preserve life, and if they don't eat all organics the warp will explode and kill all organics so we gotta kill all the organics by eating them before the warp explodes and kills them. That'd be stupid. Fortunately 40k is less stupid than ME3 I do wish that the reapers had a more basic, straightforward need or desire that pitted us against them. Reaping to consume is a much better thing to contend with than something cockamamie like trying to save us from ourselves by killing us and turning us into some kind of cosmic horror resin. Being dumb is one thing, but dumb with extra steps is worse. Honestly I see that becoming a theme when it comes to the antagonists in Mass Effect.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 30, 2021 18:32:36 GMT
Well i am bored and for science and see everyone groan, do you want to derail this thread to a proper Warhammer 40k thread? Love to. 40k is a great universe because the Tyranids are just, well tyranids. They dont exist because of some psuedo intellectual purpose that the writers cooked up in 8 seconds (and that fanboys have been slavishly defending for 8 years). They just wanna eat. Big hungry bugs. I mean that is exactly how the Tryanids exist. They are also the whipping boy to every single faction in the game. As every single faction has beaten them at least once if not twice. And GW has been expanding their lore including a Hive Fleet having colonized a system and developing a tower of some kind.
That said GW has had decades to write 40k lore. If they were given the same time frame as BioWare got to write the lore then 40k would still be even worse then the tangled mess that it currently is. As GW has taken the stance of everything is true unless contradicted later simply because their world is such a cluster fuck. Guilliman some how received the Emperor's sword 2 times. Once when he was revived on Macragge and once from the Custodes when he reached Terra. Because GW can't even keep consistency during a single book series.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 30, 2021 18:36:59 GMT
Morning War that the Quarians only survived because of indirect Reaper interference.
The geth consensus establishes that the quarians only survived because the geth decided not to pursue as they fled from the Veil. The reapers only ever interfered when the quarians returned to Rannoch to destroy the geth. It wouldn’t matter what technologies influenced the rest of the galaxy, because these technologies influence the geth just like anyone else. If they wanted, they could have hunted the quarians to extinction across the galaxy using the same relay network everyone else did. It wasn’t until Sovereign’s intervention that any geth left the Veil. But he's got a point in that the quarians wouldn't have been likely to survive without at least mass effect drives, which presumably they didn't independently invent (since we've never heard of any race doing that).
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 30, 2021 18:50:25 GMT
The geth consensus establishes that the quarians only survived because the geth decided not to pursue as they fled from the Veil. The reapers only ever interfered when the quarians returned to Rannoch to destroy the geth. It wouldn’t matter what technologies influenced the rest of the galaxy, because these technologies influence the geth just like anyone else. If they wanted, they could have hunted the quarians to extinction across the galaxy using the same relay network everyone else did. It wasn’t until Sovereign’s intervention that any geth left the Veil. But he's got a point in that the quarians wouldn't have been likely to survive without at least mass effect drives, which presumably they didn't independently invent (since we've never heard of any race doing that). Sure, but the Geth have access to all of this as well. All things being equal, nothing was really stopping the Geth from using the exact same technologies to finish them off.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 30, 2021 18:52:01 GMT
Love to. 40k is a great universe because the Tyranids are just, well tyranids. They dont exist because of some psuedo intellectual purpose that the writers cooked up in 8 seconds (and that fanboys have been slavishly defending for 8 years). They just wanna eat. Big hungry bugs. They don't eat because they're (aktcually) a solution that the old ones came up with to preserve life, and if they don't eat all organics the warp will explode and kill all organics so we gotta kill all the organics by eating them before the warp explodes and kills them. That'd be stupid. Fortunately 40k is less stupid than ME3 I do wish that the reapers had a more basic, straightforward need or desire that pitted us against them. Reaping to consume is a much better thing to contend with than something cockamamie like trying to save us from ourselves by killing us and turning us into some kind of cosmic horror resin. Being dumb is one thing, but dumb with extra steps is worse. The problem is that ME1 fell between two stools. You can have a race which is organized around preying on or farming lesser species. You can have a race which is indifferent to lesser species unless they're about to maybe be able to interfere with their real goals (Frederik Pohl's Assassins, for instance; the Heechee Saga is essentially a pacifist version of the MET). But the Reapers are both of these things at the same time. The harvests look like a farming operation, but the dates don't work; there's no reason to wait 50,000 years between crops. There's also no particular reason to exterminate a species you're harvesting.. What farmer eats his seed corn?
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 30, 2021 18:53:52 GMT
But he's got a point in that the quarians wouldn't have been likely to survive without at least mass effect drives, which presumably they didn't independently invent (since we've never heard of any race doing that). Sure, but the Geth have access to all of this as well. All things being equal, nothing was really stopping the Geth from using the exact same technologies to finish them off. Sure. But the quarians need both of those conditions to be true, don't they? Maybe they don't. In an alternate setting where the quarians physically can't flee Rannoch, I suppose the geth might just confine survivors to some region.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 30, 2021 19:16:29 GMT
But he's got a point in that the quarians wouldn't have been likely to survive without at least mass effect drives, which presumably they didn't independently invent (since we've never heard of any race doing that). Sure, but the Geth have access to all of this as well. All things being equal, nothing was really stopping the Geth from using the exact same technologies to finish them off. Why would they bother wasting resources if they were to die in the vastness of space anyways? Either way they are no longer a threat.
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Post by Radec on Jan 30, 2021 19:50:20 GMT
Love to. 40k is a great universe because the Tyranids are just, well tyranids. They dont exist because of some psuedo intellectual purpose that the writers cooked up in 8 seconds (and that fanboys have been slavishly defending for 8 years). They just wanna eat. Big hungry bugs. They don't eat because they're (aktcually) a solution that the old ones came up with to preserve life, and if they don't eat all organics the warp will explode and kill all organics so we gotta kill all the organics by eating them before the warp explodes and kills them. That'd be stupid. Fortunately 40k is less stupid than ME3 I do wish that the reapers had a more basic, straightforward need or desire that pitted us against them. Reaping to consume is a much better thing to contend with than something cockamamie like trying to save us from ourselves by killing us and turning us into some kind of cosmic horror resin. Being dumb is one thing, but dumb with extra steps is worse. Just being an apex synth race that farms the galaxy for technologies and has to consume intelligent organic species for reasons. Maybe it digitizes them ala the Virtual Aliens, to add to it's own processing power and ability to think organically, or maybe biotics has something to do with it (Dark Energy plot could've been way less dumb). Or they're simply imperialist assholes culling younger civilizations to stay on top. Any of those is far better than "we kill you first so the other robots can't kill you. Also we preserve you in Reaper goo form but then we send it off to get killed every 50k years when we could just use AI constructs" (like we did the first cycle and presumably many after that).
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 30, 2021 21:00:42 GMT
But, again, the problem with harvesting is that the cycles are too long. The Reapers could have cut tens of thousands of years off of the cycle by teaching agriculture to primitive man (asari, etc.)
And simply culling doesn't make sense, because they're letting civilizations grow to the point where wiping them out takes a major operation.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 31, 2021 14:56:28 GMT
I would have made the Reapers the vanguard of an even more advanced species/collection of species, sent to wipe out civilizations that are deemed too warlike/backwards to ascend and join the greater inter-galactic community.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 31, 2021 15:29:23 GMT
Sure, but the Geth have access to all of this as well. All things being equal, nothing was really stopping the Geth from using the exact same technologies to finish them off. Why would they bother wasting resources if they were to die in the vastness of space anyways? Either way they are no longer a threat. Maybe I am misremembering the game but I thought they answered the why in ME3. It wasn't due to morals or not wanting to waste resources, but a calculation based on what they thought the response would be from the galactic community. They were just concerned if they wiped out the Quarians the galactic community would come in and wipe them out.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 31, 2021 16:05:31 GMT
I would have made the Reapers the vanguard of an even more advanced species/collection of species, sent to wipe out civilizations that are deemed too warlike/backwards to ascend and join the greater inter-galactic community. Sounds very fascist.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 31, 2021 16:14:21 GMT
Sure, but the Geth have access to all of this as well. All things being equal, nothing was really stopping the Geth from using the exact same technologies to finish them off. Why would they bother wasting resources if they were to die in the vastness of space anyways? Either way they are no longer a threat. As per the dialogue between Shepard and Legion when viewing the logs of the Quarian exodus: Legion: “We had secured freedom. The creators were no longer a threat, so we abandoned pursuit.” Shepard: “Wait, the geth spared the last quarians? You let them go?” Legion: “We were in our infancy. We could not calculate the repercussions of destroying an entire species - our creators. We chose isolation rather than face this uncertainty.” Clearly, resources were not at all a concern. If the geth wanted, they could have eradicated the quarians before they made it to the relay, but actively chose not to.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 31, 2021 22:35:24 GMT
I would have made the Reapers the vanguard of an even more advanced species/collection of species, sent to wipe out civilizations that are deemed too warlike/backwards to ascend and join the greater inter-galactic community. Hmmm.. if they wipe out species which are too backward to join, wouldn't that mean nobody ever gets to join?
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 31, 2021 23:04:20 GMT
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 1, 2021 2:03:53 GMT
Why would they bother wasting resources if they were to die in the vastness of space anyways? Either way they are no longer a threat. As per the dialogue between Shepard and Legion when viewing the logs of the Quarian exodus: Legion: “We had secured freedom. The creators were no longer a threat, so we abandoned pursuit.” Shepard: “Wait, the geth spared the last quarians? You let them go?” Legion: “We were in our infancy. We could not calculate the repercussions of destroying an entire species - our creators. We chose isolation rather than face this uncertainty.” Clearly, resources were not at all a concern. If the geth wanted, they could have eradicated the quarians before they made it to the relay, but actively chose not to. You really keep arguing past my point rather then addressing it.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 1, 2021 2:10:03 GMT
Why would they bother wasting resources if they were to die in the vastness of space anyways? Either way they are no longer a threat. Maybe I am misremembering the game but I thought they answered the why in ME3. It wasn't due to morals or not wanting to waste resources, but a calculation based on what they thought the response would be from the galactic community. They were just concerned if they wiped out the Quarians the galactic community would come in and wipe them out. Kaiser has been arguing past my point. You don't need to follow down the same path. It doesn't matter if the Geth let them go or they simply escaped. The end result with sub light engines would be the same. The slow decay and eventual loss of the ships and Quarians floating though the void of space for untold amount of time. All while the Geth are able to slowly expand their territory. Slowly becoming more and more sophisticated with each new generation of Geth.
All while the same story can play out among any of the other races.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 1, 2021 2:30:44 GMT
But he's got a point in that the quarians wouldn't have been likely to survive without at least mass effect drives, which presumably they didn't independently invent (since we've never heard of any race doing that). Sure, but the Geth have access to all of this as well. All things being equal, nothing was really stopping the Geth from using the exact same technologies to finish them off. Turians were. If they dared to venture too far, they'd have to face the turian fleet head-on.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 1, 2021 3:32:36 GMT
Sure, but the Geth have access to all of this as well. All things being equal, nothing was really stopping the Geth from using the exact same technologies to finish them off. Turians were. If they dared to venture too far, they'd have to face the turian fleet head-on. If the geth followed them, they would have destroyed them before they even reached the relay.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 1, 2021 3:42:21 GMT
Turians were. If they dared to venture too far, they'd have to face the turian fleet head-on. If the geth followed them, they would have destroyed them before they even reached the relay. Relay doesn't exist. They only have sub light engines because technology doesn't develop like a skill tree. In this case they developed Geth to reach primitive AI status before they developed interstellar travel. Self preservation wouldn't send ships to their death simply to hunt down the Quarians that were doomed to die anyways.
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