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Post by themikefest on Feb 27, 2021 22:06:26 GMT
i.e. imploring Kostas to act more professional or yell at him and tell him to pack up his gear (you could always create a situation to re-recruit him later). Re-recruit the traitor? No. He's a troublemaker and can't be trusted. Don't need someone like that on the roster. The scenes in the game that have Hawke throwing a knife through dialogue, if chosen, could be a form of interrupt that I would get behind. I like DA2 dialogue system the best. but far too often bioware confused 'renegade' with 'evil'. Can you give an example(s)?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 27, 2021 23:08:01 GMT
i.e. imploring Kostas to act more professional or yell at him and tell him to pack up his gear (you could always create a situation to re-recruit him later). Re-recruit the traitor? No. He's a troublemaker and can't be trusted. Don't need someone like that on the roster. The scenes in the game that have Hawke throwing a knife through dialogue, if chosen, could be a form of interrupt that I would get behind. I like DA2 dialogue system the best. but far too often bioware confused 'renegade' with 'evil'. Can you give an example(s)? The borderline racism exhibited by some of the lines (and that is being kind) The genocidal tendencies. Shooting Mordin in the back. Punching Reporters. Disconecting on your political superiors. Now as I have argued there are some great renegade choices too which I do take advantage of throughout the series which are actual choices and actually add naunce and are an actual moral qunadry but it got really bad in ME 3 and at times it just reinforced the idea of Shepard as a power fantasty rather then Shepard as a functional character.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 27, 2021 23:22:32 GMT
You say it’s total crap even when divorcing it from the dialogue writing, but that doesn’t make any sense when it’s just your standard dialogue wheel and timed prompts. The wheel can contain plenty of lines of varying intent, and the prompts can be used to trigger just about any action. All the renegade and paragon alignments add is a funnel system to drive players down one of two personalities. Thing is, this is basically auto-fill for its dumbed-down dialogue tree, rather than simply letting the player have full manual control over their character build, like the old coercion stat, or stats that let us specialize in certain types of dialogue. A morality bar is just a superficial element, but with or without it, there’s always a score that keeps check, so regardless of whether or not it’s in the menu, the “bar” always exists. Your problem seems entirely with the dialogue itself, not the system. The Warden, for example, had plenty of options that span across what you might consider to be renegade, neutral and paragon lines, and plenty that were tied behind a dialogue skill check that actually accounted for your character’s perceptiveness and intellect. There was no morality meter to determine how this functioned. It was entirely up to you what kind of character you wanted to be like. My problem with the way Mass Effect implemented it, particularly in 2 and 3, is that if you were too much of an asshole, or too much of a saint, you could be arbitrarily locked out of being mean to some rando, because the auto-fill saw to it that you couldn’t meet the requirements. No because I believe the intent of the dialogue wheel of empathy, logic was to create a set character, and while it can sort of fill the role choices based on a personality quirk is different than core philosophies. All of these are just dialogue wheels, there is no difference in that. Whether its color coded with red/blue or has some dumb ass symbol meaning logic its a dialogue wheel. The writing was terrible on top of that in that the lines were terrible, the character was lame etc. But the mechanic set up was a fairly narrow range of personality types creating a more set character. Sure you could label the same things and go more extreme with logic being Vulcan, empathy being weepy etc, but I suspect you'd choose different names for them if doing that.
And as I said you don't need a bar filling up for it to be a renegade/paragon system, drop the bar just make them choices you can make. If you are going to have checks have them based on something else not how often you did renegade that is fine. But renegade/paragon is a different style of decision making as opposed to personality types its focusing on a more drive or core motivation oriented. I think making the core decisions more philosophy based instead of personality type is a deeper and more entertaining system. It hasn't always been implemented great but the core concept is superior to the more DA style. But its a core reason why people will talk about their Shepard and have no real my Ryder discussions, and even in DA the my Warden or whatever is more about their race or class than their philosophy which is imo more superficial.
Your suggestion doesn’t really seem to differ all that much from what I’m suggesting, which is simply having a dialogue free-for-all where the player can just decide what your character does, without being dictated as to which alignment they need to lean on more to pass a dialogue check. Personally, I prefer dialogue checks to involve something more meaningful and specific, like an actual stat that deals with the character’s overall intelligence, or technical know-how or some other bit of savviness inherent with a specific background, etc.. Like, say a spacer Shepard might know more about ships because of their life growing up on one, and have relevant dialogue in any given situation. All a morality system really ended up doing was changing the lines of autodialogue than anything else, and it was really just a switch between two sort-of personality types. If you apply renegade and paragon dialogue to simply exist openly for the player without hidden numbers, in theory it’s just adding more dialogue for the player and letting them just make up their own mind. The interrupt system itself is best left separate from this, however, because if nothing else, options to the player should be as transparent as possible, and the opaqueness of these prompts detract from the roleplaying aspect of the game. Like, what if I don’t want to hug Tali? You don’t know that the paragon prompt really does this. You might guess, but who wants to guess when they can just have the word explicitly state what you’re about to do?
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Post by themikefest on Feb 27, 2021 23:37:18 GMT
The borderline racism exhibited by some of the lines (and that is being kind) Which lines? Such as..... I call it paragon. The dalatross offers support to fight the reapers. That's a good thing. Can't turn down more resources to fight the reapers. The more support I have to fight the reapers, the better chance of defeating them. Why do you believe it's evil? So if someone hangs up on you it's evil?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 28, 2021 0:54:53 GMT
I'm still waiting for the renegade interrupt that allows you to kick the turian councilor so hard in the nads that they come shooting out of his mouth.
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N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Feb 28, 2021 1:16:48 GMT
Re-recruit the traitor? No. He's a troublemaker and can't be trusted. Don't need someone like that on the roster. The scenes in the game that have Hawke throwing a knife through dialogue, if chosen, could be a form of interrupt that I would get behind. I like DA2 dialogue system the best. Can you give an example(s)? The borderline racism exhibited by some of the lines (and that is being kind) The genocidal tendencies. Shooting Mordin in the back. Punching Reporters. Disconecting on your political superiors. Now as I have argued there are some great renegade choices too which I do take advantage of throughout the series which are actual choices and actually add naunce and are an actual moral qunadry but it got really bad in ME 3 and at times it just reinforced the idea of Shepard as a power fantasty rather then Shepard as a functional character.
Generally the renegade options that I like are stuff that shows that Shepard has a temper. Like shoving the merc out the window in ME2, telling off the salarian daltrass (FTR in my opinion that should never have been a renegade or paragon prompt but a dialogue chose off the wheel because Shepard is stating a simple but harsh fact), and punching the quarian admiral in ME3 it allows me to role play Shepard as having a limit to the amount of bullshit she is going to put up with. When I first played ME3 and was the geth dreadnought I clearly remember thinking "God I really hope I get to punch that quarian admiral." And when I saw the prompt I push the button then and every single time since.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 28, 2021 1:33:02 GMT
The borderline racism exhibited by some of the lines (and that is being kind) The genocidal tendencies. Shooting Mordin in the back. Punching Reporters. Disconecting on your political superiors. Now as I have argued there are some great renegade choices too which I do take advantage of throughout the series which are actual choices and actually add naunce and are an actual moral qunadry but it got really bad in ME 3 and at times it just reinforced the idea of Shepard as a power fantasty rather then Shepard as a functional character.
Generally the renegade options that I like are stuff that shows that Shepard has a temper. Like shoving the merc out the window in ME2, telling off the salarian daltrass (FTR in my opinion that should never have been a renegade or paragon prompt but a dialogue chose off the wheel because Shepard is stating a simple but harsh fact), and punching the quarian admiral in ME3 it allows me to role play Shepard as having a limit to the amount of bullshit she is going to put up with. When I first played ME3 and was the geth dreadnought I clearly remember thinking "God I really hope I get to punch that quarian admiral." And when I saw the prompt I push the button then and every single time since.
Two of my favorite Renegade Interrupts in the series honestly. Actually while its difficult to remember my first playthrough of games I did years ago but my general opinion,at least on the interrupts, is it always is amazing how well BioWare does their visual storytelling in that regard. I don't ever remember, in the trilogy especially, being that surprised over the outcome of what happened when I slapped that trigger with the almighty rage of a thousand gods. And with no explanation, no words, all through visuals, a real masterclass.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 28, 2021 2:21:25 GMT
I call it paragon. The dalatross offers support to fight the reapers. That's a good thing. Can't turn down more resources to fight the reapers. The more support I have to fight the reapers, the better chance of defeating them. Why do you believe it's evil? You can call it that, but it clearly isn’t. If you got to the point where you decide to shoot Mordin in the back, that means that you saved Maelon’s data and kept Wrex alive, otherwise, you could just talk him down and have him work on the Crucible project. Seems to me that it would be pretty “renegade” to take the supportive path, only to turn around and undo it. Something the game kind of fails to do is really put into perspective the scope of these choices. The Dalatrass is offering support, but only in exchange for risking both the Krogan and the Turians. Remember, the Primarch is fully on board with the cure if it means getting troops to help with Palaven. If this plan backfires, there’s a risk to lose everything, and the Dalatrass’ offer suddenly becomes worthless. Of course, the game is incapable of following through with any meaningful consequences on this front, but that consideration should have always been there from the start. The fact that Wrex somehow finds out, yet krogan still go help the Turians is what makes this doubly nonsensical. If Wrex is alive and the genophage cure is sabotaged, he should have pulled support entirely to let the Turians face the reapers alone, and let the rest of the galaxy make do without them. It would have been hilarious to see what the Dalatrass would have to say at that point, because they would be just as screwed. As for punching reporters, does it really need an explanation? Obviously it’s not like murdering innocent people or anything, but petty assault isn’t a particular good either. Shepard could have simply used their wits to defeat the reporter, but would instead simply be an ill-tempered asshole.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 28, 2021 2:34:20 GMT
I call it paragon. The dalatross offers support to fight the reapers. That's a good thing. Can't turn down more resources to fight the reapers. The more support I have to fight the reapers, the better chance of defeating them. Why do you believe it's evil? You can call it that, but it clearly isn’t. If you got to the point where you decide to shoot Mordin in the back, that means that you saved Maelon’s data and kept Wrex alive, otherwise, you could just talk him down and have him work on the Crucible project. Seems to me that it would be pretty “renegade” to take the supportive path, only to turn around and undo it. Something the game kind of fails to do is really put into perspective the scope of these choices. The Dalatrass is offering support, but only in exchange for risking both the Krogan and the Turians. Remember, the Primarch is fully on board with the cure if it means getting troops to help with Palaven. If this plan backfires, there’s a risk to lose everything, and the Dalatrass’ offer suddenly becomes worthless. Of course, the game is incapable of following through with any meaningful consequences on this front, but that consideration should have always been there from the start. The fact that Wrex somehow finds out, yet krogan still go help the Turians is what makes this doubly nonsensical. If Wrex is alive and the genophage cure is sabotaged, he should have pulled support entirely to let the Turians face the reapers alone, and let the rest of the galaxy make do without them. It would have been hilarious to see what the Dalatrass would have to say at that point, because they would be just as screwed. As for punching reporters, does it really need an explanation? Obviously it’s not like murdering innocent people or anything, but petty assault isn’t a particular good either. Shepard could have simply used their wits to defeat the reporter, but would instead simply be an ill-tempered asshole. I gotta ask: which reporter are you talking about? Because I don't remember that you could punch Emily Wrong.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 28, 2021 2:40:01 GMT
You can call it that, but it clearly isn’t. If you got to the point where you decide to shoot Mordin in the back, that means that you saved Maelon’s data and kept Wrex alive, otherwise, you could just talk him down and have him work on the Crucible project. Seems to me that it would be pretty “renegade” to take the supportive path, only to turn around and undo it. That is incorrect. Depending on what the player chooses to do in their playthrough, he/she may not have enough reputation to convince Mordin to sabotage the genophage. I know, it happened to me.
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Post by hoku on Feb 28, 2021 10:48:13 GMT
I think you'll just have interrupts without the "morality" and that just adds to a total reputation level to unlock dialogue choices. You won't be railroaded into Paragon/Renegade anymore, you can play Paragon, Paragade, Renegade, Renagon as you see fit.
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Post by Croatsky on Feb 28, 2021 10:54:27 GMT
At this point going back to Renegade/Paragon would be a major step backwards. The Andromeda system was the second best dialogue system ever. R/P was supposed to be about different ways of solving issues...but bioware implemented it rather lacklustre in the three games...and it got worse in ME 3. Yes there were times it worked but far too often bioware confused 'renegade' with 'evil'. Plus without it being personality based it missed out on the richness and contrability of Ryder or the DA protags. And as someone mentioned earlier, some Paragon interrupts should have clearly be Renegade, but were made Paragon because it's a good option.
It just highlights how badly BioWare used morality system in MET, which was already conceptually bad.
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Amateur Reporter
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Post by Croatsky on Feb 28, 2021 11:03:45 GMT
As for punching reporters, does it really need an explanation? Obviously it’s not like murdering innocent people or anything, but petty assault isn’t a particular good either. Shepard could have simply used their wits to defeat the reporter, but would instead simply be an ill-tempered asshole. Just to add to this part, it is big mega yikes that BioWare made punching a reporter a running joke, as Shepard is not the only one to assault her.
That really aged really poorly after these past 5 years.
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is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Feb 28, 2021 14:59:56 GMT
Generally the renegade options that I like are stuff that shows that Shepard has a temper. Like shoving the merc out the window in ME2, telling off the salarian daltrass (FTR in my opinion that should never have been a renegade or paragon prompt but a dialogue chose off the wheel because Shepard is stating a simple but harsh fact), and punching the quarian admiral in ME3 it allows me to role play Shepard as having a limit to the amount of bullshit she is going to put up with. When I first played ME3 and was the geth dreadnought I clearly remember thinking "God I really hope I get to punch that quarian admiral." And when I saw the prompt I push the button then and every single time since.
Two of my favorite Renegade Interrupts in the series honestly. Actually while its difficult to remember my first playthrough of games I did years ago but my general opinion,at least on the interrupts, is it always is amazing how well BioWare does their visual storytelling in that regard. I don't ever remember, in the trilogy especially, being that surprised over the outcome of what happened when I slapped that trigger with the almighty rage of a thousand gods. And with no explanation, no words, all through visuals, a real masterclass.
Punching the quarian admiral was because he almost got Shepard, Liara, Tali, and Legion killed, destroyed a geth dreadnought (and Shepard needs every single war ship she can get), got his people stuck in a small war (yes I know the quarian/geth war is important to them but the Reaper War is a much bigger threat) right in the middle of a larger war. I think he got off lucky with a punch in the gut.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 28, 2021 15:17:15 GMT
You can call it that, but it clearly isn’t. If you got to the point where you decide to shoot Mordin in the back, that means that you saved Maelon’s data and kept Wrex alive, otherwise, you could just talk him down and have him work on the Crucible project. Seems to me that it would be pretty “renegade” to take the supportive path, only to turn around and undo it. That is incorrect. Depending on what the player chooses to do in their playthrough, he/she may not have enough reputation to convince Mordin to sabotage the genophage. I know, it happened to me. I'm thinking about editing the wiki to reflect this. How'd you manage to fail? A non-import game? I've never yet seen a Rep check in ME3 that an imported Shepard didn't pass.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Feb 28, 2021 15:19:53 GMT
As for punching reporters, does it really need an explanation? Obviously it’s not like murdering innocent people or anything, but petty assault isn’t a particular good either. Shepard could have simply used their wits to defeat the reporter, but would instead simply be an ill-tempered asshole. Just to add to this part, it is big mega yikes that BioWare made punching a reporter a running joke, as Shepard is not the only one to assault her.
That really aged really poorly after these past 5 years.
It aged awesomely.
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Post by vonuber on Feb 28, 2021 15:53:19 GMT
Just to add to this part, it is big mega yikes that BioWare made punching a reporter a running joke, as Shepard is not the only one to assault her.
That really aged really poorly after these past 5 years.
It aged awesomely. Only if you think it's acceptable for a military commander to punch a civilian reporter (while being filmed no less) for no other reason that they asked a question. Shep is supposed to be intelligent, not just a meatbag.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 28, 2021 16:00:36 GMT
That is incorrect. Depending on what the player chooses to do in their playthrough, he/she may not have enough reputation to convince Mordin to sabotage the genophage. I know, it happened to me. I'm thinking about editing the wiki to reflect this. How'd you manage to fail? A non-import game? I've never yet seen a Rep check in ME3 that an imported Shepard didn't pass. Simple. By doing as little as possible in the playthrough(s). In ME2, I did as little as possible to reach the end of the game. My renegade was just a bit higher than 1 bar with paragon showing very little. So when I imported the save into ME3, renegade was very low as was the reputation. By doing enough to move the game forward, I didn't have the blue or red dialogue pop up to convince Mordin to sabotage the cure.
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Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Croatsky on Feb 28, 2021 16:08:22 GMT
Only if you think it's acceptable for a military commander to punch a civilian reporter (while being filmed no less) for no other reason that they asked a question. Shep is supposed to be intelligent, not just a meatbag. Not even meatbags should do that either.
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Post by Radec on Feb 28, 2021 16:32:47 GMT
Though amusing, hitting Al-Jilani just makes it look like she is correct and Shep a petty goon who can't outmaneuver her barbs The Renegade persuasion option is far better (and grants more Renegade points, at that).
Regarding Adm. Gerrel, that's another good example of Paragon taking the doormat approach. Even if you told him to retreat (Paragon) rather than attack (Renegade) when the signal is disabled, the Paragon dialogue option after he attacks regardless has you agreeing with his decision.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 28, 2021 17:10:30 GMT
Being a Paragon means being able to admit you were wrong, eh?
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Post by ahglock on Feb 28, 2021 17:14:01 GMT
Only if you think it's acceptable for a military commander to punch a civilian reporter (while being filmed no less) for no other reason that they asked a question. Shep is supposed to be intelligent, not just a meatbag. Its a joke scene. Not everything has to be 100% serious. If your shep wont do it, there is an easy option, don't do it. I guess its aged poorly in the sense that no one has a sense of humor anymore.
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Croatsky
N4
Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: CroGamer002
Posts: 1,987 Likes: 4,357
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Amateur Reporter
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Apr 23, 2024 13:00:16 GMT
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Croatsky
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
1,987
December 2016
croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
CroGamer002
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Post by Croatsky on Feb 28, 2021 18:06:42 GMT
Only if you think it's acceptable for a military commander to punch a civilian reporter (while being filmed no less) for no other reason that they asked a question. Shep is supposed to be intelligent, not just a meatbag. Its a joke scene. Not everything has to be 100% serious. If your shep wont do it, there is an easy option, don't do it. I guess its aged poorly in the sense that no one has a sense of humor anymore. Assaulting the press is such a hilarious joke, apparently.
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Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
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Radec
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Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
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Post by Radec on Feb 28, 2021 18:16:15 GMT
Being a Paragon means being able to admit you were wrong, eh? Kek. Quarian general ripper did nothing wrong, synthetic bastards got what they deserved. Jokes aside all that flip flopping is a good example of how arbitrary the Renegade/Paragon system gets at times. If you go and talk to Joker about the exchange after, Shepard flips again. The Paragon who just kowtowed to Adm. Gerrel's assault is now criticizing him again like before, and the Renegade who just punched him defends the decision.
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Warning Points: 1
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vonuber
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January 2017
vonuber
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by vonuber on Feb 28, 2021 19:13:11 GMT
I guess its aged poorly in the sense that no one has a sense of humor anymore. That defence is only ever used to excuse racist, sexist and homophobic jokes. I mean a galactic super soldier punching the crap out of an entirely innocent person is hilarious, isn't it.
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