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Post by Warrick on Feb 28, 2021 20:02:47 GMT
This makes me sad. It actually makes me more hesitant to complain about the implementation of renegade content when we're such a small minority. They might have even lost money creating that content.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 28, 2021 20:44:54 GMT
Renegade’s problem is that more often than not, it’s just Shepard needlessly being an asshole than actually being ruthless or pragmatic, the latter of which doesn’t even exist for this alignment anyway.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 28, 2021 22:06:37 GMT
I've punched the reporter once, might be twice just to see/hear the result. Otherwise I either ignore her or use dialogue to deal with her. It's interesting Shepard can punch her but can't punch other characters that could use a punch.
The one time I agree with Shepard punching someone is on Zaeed's mission.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 28, 2021 23:01:10 GMT
I guess its aged poorly in the sense that no one has a sense of humor anymore. That defence is only ever used to excuse racist, sexist and homophobic jokes. I mean a galactic super soldier punching the crap out of an entirely innocent person is hilarious, isn't it. Well since this was not racist, sexist or homophobic that makes no sense. You just don't have a sense of humor, deal with it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 28, 2021 23:06:29 GMT
That defence is only ever used to excuse racist, sexist and homophobic jokes. I mean a galactic super soldier punching the crap out of an entirely innocent person is hilarious, isn't it. Well since this was not racist, sexist or homophobic that makes no sense. You just don't have a sense of humor, deal with it. Where’s the humor in assaulting someone? Go on, explain it.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 28, 2021 23:16:16 GMT
Well since this was not racist, sexist or homophobic that makes no sense. You just don't have a sense of humor, deal with it. Where’s the humor in assaulting someone? Go on, explain it. Why does everyone laugh when the reporter in die hard gets punched by McClanes wife at the end of the movie. It is a ludicrous action to deal with a person who is over the top obnoxious. That's the humor, then they made it a running gag and not a one off. My understanding is a large number of people did it and found it amusing enough to do in each game. You can not like the joke and still have a sense of humor, not getting that it is one stamping your feet and complaining about it means you don't.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 28, 2021 23:19:06 GMT
I've punched the reporter once, might be twice just to see/hear the result. Otherwise I either ignore her or use dialogue to deal with her. It's interesting Shepard can punch her but can't punch other characters that could use a punch. The one time I agree with Shepard punching someone is on Zaeed's mission. I did it on one play through to see it, people who do it every time are pretty common. I think making her look dumb is a better way to make her look bad, but hey let people have their one off absurd actions here and there. Its pretty funny that you get to go that ludicrous.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 1, 2021 0:27:04 GMT
That defence is only ever used to excuse racist, sexist and homophobic jokes. I mean a galactic super soldier punching the crap out of an entirely innocent person is hilarious, isn't it. Well since this was not racist, sexist or homophobic that makes no sense. You just don't have a sense of humor, deal with it. My point is that saying 'oh you just don't have a sense of humour' is literally the defence people use to excuse those sort of jokes.
Sure, you might find it funny - others don't. Saying that it is because someone just doesn't have a sense of humour is exceptionally facile.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 1, 2021 12:49:21 GMT
I didn't get the impression that BioWare was initially playing the humor angle in ME1 when it came to the reporter punch. The interaction wasn't really over the top, and Khalisah's reaction to it wasn't particularly comical. Then there was Hackett's aftermath dialogue, where basically Shepard just looked bad in front of the camera and behaved in a manner unbecoming of an officer.
It didn't become an actual gag until ME2, and really, that was mostly due to LotSB's addition of the footage of other people doing it.
I don't oppose having these options in the game, but a lot of these things ring hollow because you perform all of these actions in kind of a moral vacuum. It's why I wish ME had an approval system, where the way you spoke and acted could have consequences at least on a personal level with companions.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Mar 1, 2021 13:21:05 GMT
I didn't get the impression that BioWare was initially playing the humor angle in ME1 when it came to the reporter punch. The interaction wasn't really over the top, and Khalisah's reaction to it wasn't particularly comical. Then there was Hackett's aftermath dialogue, where basically Shepard just looked bad in front of the camera and behaved in a manner unbecoming of an officer. It didn't become an actual gag until ME2, and really, that was mostly due to LotSB's addition of the footage of other people doing it. I don't oppose having these options in the game, but a lot of these things ring hollow because you perform all of these actions in kind of a moral vacuum. It's why I wish ME had an approval system, where the way you spoke and acted could have consequences at least on a personal level with companions. Speaking of that approval system.... It should carry over from each game so that you don't get friendzoned in every playthough.
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Post by Ascend on Mar 1, 2021 13:23:17 GMT
I think Paragon backfiring more often is more important than trying to make Renegade the good choice. Paragon is too rewarding and offers too little risk in the games. It's easy to blindly go Paragon and do good in the games (no pun intended). There are only a handful of instances where being Paragon truly affects you negatively. Real life doesn't work that way though. Mass Effect was a bit too black and white (or red and blue).Characters for example are either loyal or not loyal. I would prefer a loyalty scale, sort of like Dragon Age Origins. And then, everything is nullified, pretty much. Take for example Zaeed's loyalty mission. The choice is basically letting innocent people die in the factory to kill Vido, or, saving those people but letting Vido go. An interesting choice. But... Unfortunately, it all stops there. Because ultimately, he becomes loyal anyway, and nothing else truly happens after that. For such a choice to truly have weight, Vido's escape should have real consequences, i.e. innocent people dying somewhere else, or, Vido killing one of your other team mates later on (or Zaeed himself), or something similar. Even as simple as enforcing Zaeed not becoming loyal if Vido escapes, no matter how many paragon points you have, would be a true consequence. But nah. Paragons get a free pass for pretty much everything. The true reward for playing Renegade should come from negative consequences for making certain Paragon choices. Not all choices should be rewarded. For choices to truly have meaning, the consequences must be real. This is why I like Life Is Strange. An example is Kate. If you don't pay attention to the depressed girl in class, she will commit suicide in front of your eyes, while you know you could have saved her if you did just pay some better attention. That's a true and realistic consequence depending on your not only your actions, but your interest in truly caring for someone else that is clearly in distress. At least they have introduced the reputation system, where you're not forced to be fully Paragon or Renegade. The negative consequences should be based on the choice, not on whether you're playing Renegade or Paragon. This should enable the developers to become a bit more flexible in how they implement choices and consequence. And yes, I played mostly Paragon.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 1, 2021 13:58:44 GMT
Take for example Zaeed's loyalty mission. The choice is basically letting innocent people die in the factory to kill Vido, or, saving those people but letting Vido go. An interesting choice. But... Unfortunately, it all stops there. Because ultimately, he becomes loyal anyway, and nothing else truly happens after that. He does not become loyal if red/blue is low. He will be loyal, if Shepard chooses to let the people die, but if not, he will only become loyal if red/blue is high enough. As I've said before, a paragon Shepard can have a worse playthrough than a renegade Shepard. I played renegade with only 2 squadmates dead at the end of ME3, A/K, and the edibot, with my renegade bar over 90%. I did a paragon playthrough with the memorial wall filled before Shepard headed to earth with the paragon bar over 90%
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Post by Guardian on Mar 1, 2021 14:47:51 GMT
Renegade’s problem is that more often than not, it’s just Shepard needlessly being an asshole than actually being ruthless or pragmatic, the latter of which doesn’t even exist for this alignment anyway.
Just to build on this a bit, it felt like Renegade really never had it's own consistent identity. You went from being an asshole, to xenophobic, back to just being an ass and a jerk. Paragon (aside from the "am-I-with-Cerberus-or-not?" crap) was at least consistent through the entire trilogy.
Would an approval system help? Mmm....to an extent, given how Miranda and Jacob wind up leaving Cerberus (even if you hand over the collector base), it'd be hard to gain approval with them (at least Miranda, given how pro-Cerberus she is for like...80%(?) of the game).
While I think DA:O handled it decently, Inquisition did not, I think. So, I think it could, but it just comes down to how it's implemented.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 1, 2021 14:49:52 GMT
Take for example Zaeed's loyalty mission. The choice is basically letting innocent people die in the factory to kill Vido, or, saving those people but letting Vido go. An interesting choice. But... Unfortunately, it all stops there. Because ultimately, he becomes loyal anyway, and nothing else truly happens after that. He does not become loyal if red/blue is low. He will be loyal, if Shepard chooses to let the people die, but if not, he will only become loyal if red/blue is high enough. As I've said before, a paragon Shepard can have a worse playthrough than a renegade Shepard. I played renegade with only 2 squadmates dead at the end of ME3, A/K, and the edibot, with my renegade bar over 90%. I did a paragon playthrough with the memorial wall filled before Shepard headed to earth with the paragon bar over 90% Thing is, it’s only possible for them to have a worse playthrough if you actively avoid fulfilling certain objectives or choose all the neutral options that ensure a character’s death. Like, simply not talking to characters to build reputation so that you can guarantee that they can’t be talked down, or choosing the wrong role in the suicide mission are tied to neither alignment, but it’s a death just the same. I think the point is that the paragon choices themselves do not really penalize the player, all other things being equal.
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Post by jrpN7 on Mar 1, 2021 14:55:17 GMT
Well since this was not racist, sexist or homophobic that makes no sense. You just don't have a sense of humor, deal with it. Where’s the humor in assaulting someone? Go on, explain it. While I totally take your viewpoint, I do recall everyone laughing during this scene in the movie theater: el oh el
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 1, 2021 15:01:20 GMT
Renegade’s problem is that more often than not, it’s just Shepard needlessly being an asshole than actually being ruthless or pragmatic, the latter of which doesn’t even exist for this alignment anyway.
Just to build on this a bit, it felt like Renegade really never had it's own consistent identity. You went from being an asshole, to xenophobic, back to just being an ass and a jerk. Paragon (aside from the "am-I-with-Cerberus-or-not?" crap) was at least consistent through the entire trilogy.
Would an approval system help? Mmm....to an extent, given how Miranda and Jacob wind up leaving Cerberus (even if you hand over the collector base), it'd be hard to gain approval with them (at least Miranda, given how pro-Cerberus she is for like...80%(?) of the game).
While I think DA:O handled it decently, Inquisition did not, I think. So, I think it could, but it just comes down to how it's implemented.
I actually preferred DA2’s way of going about it than DA:O, but in any case, I would have an approval system work primarily just for the interpersonal stuff, rather than really tying it into the main story. Like, characters who are duty-bound to serve on your ship aren’t just going to up and leave or betray you just because they don’t like you, but they could have a different disposition when you try to talk to them, so they’ll just keep things more professional rather than friendly, offering little to no opportunity to get to know them better, and obviously lock out their romance. I find Mass Effect companions are a bit too static in this respect, so you can just fulfill certain tasks and win them over even when you’re kind of a psycho.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 1, 2021 15:06:54 GMT
Well since this was not racist, sexist or homophobic that makes no sense. You just don't have a sense of humor, deal with it. Where’s the humor in assaulting someone? Go on, explain it. No humor. Lets take a look at the stupid comment the asari made on Thessia. Remember her saying next time we go to war, maybe the Alliance can spring for support. That's the perfect time for a interrupt. It wouldn't be funny. It would be serious since the asari is trying to put the blame on someone else instead of accepting her pathetic species is to blame, and wanting another war. I recall someone on the old forum saying it was a joke. If so, than would it be a joke if there was an interrupt for my Shepard to punch the asari?
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Post by luketrevelyan on Mar 1, 2021 17:04:21 GMT
I would like more "renegade" options but it doesn't need to be so black and white. Have a variety of options that encompass different methods to solve the quest or respond to someone. Then it is also important that the "paragon" option doesn't always get the best result, which is something that prevents people from choosing any other option. There should be room for both idealism and pragmatism, with cost/benefits associated with each. Also, morally grey options where there aren't any perfect choices. But I don't think we need paragon/renegade so much as just dialogue, choice, and outcome variety.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 1, 2021 18:58:02 GMT
Take for example Zaeed's loyalty mission. The choice is basically letting innocent people die in the factory to kill Vido, or, saving those people but letting Vido go. An interesting choice. But... Unfortunately, it all stops there. Because ultimately, he becomes loyal anyway, and nothing else truly happens after that. He does not become loyal if red/blue is low. He will be loyal, if Shepard chooses to let the people die, but if not, he will only become loyal if red/blue is high enough. As I've said before, a paragon Shepard can have a worse playthrough than a renegade Shepard. I played renegade with only 2 squadmates dead at the end of ME3, A/K, and the edibot, with my renegade bar over 90%. I did a paragon playthrough with the memorial wall filled before Shepard headed to earth with the paragon bar over 90% But it wasn't specifically being a Paragon that caused those bad results. You got there by screwing up in ways unrelated to alignment.
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Mar 2, 2021 0:17:10 GMT
The Paragon\Renegade issue is awkward because its so inconsistent and as the OP states, is very lop sided in favour of Paragon. It was always aggravating but especially in ME2 with those crew disputes that could only be resolved if you had a high enough % of either based on total points gained so far. This locked me out of the Miranda\Jack one because whilst I'm mostly Paragon, I do pick Renegade if I feel the situation calls for it and\or the Paragon option is too absurdly trusting and unrealistic etc. I play these games by trying to be true to my character and in a way which doesn't feel like it breaks credibility. So even if the game wants to say Sheperd can talk the Geth and Quarians down by appealing to their better natures, that's just nonsense in that situation, so I have to pick the Renegade option of threatening them because its the only way that outcome could be achieved IMO.
The root of the problem is the writing and editing to make the choices believable and consistent, having approval systems and persistence in the world where others will hold you accountable for the consequences of the choices you make, equal content to provide an interesting playthrough with new opportunities regardless of choices instead of 'You got it wrong haha', as well as dispensing with the foolish 'Neutral is boring' attitude. Only a deluded fool acts in such extremes, never taking context into account. The occasional lock outs in dialogue are a symptom of not having stats and therefore having almost no other way to gate outcomes - if you just say 'Do you want to be good enough to do whatever you want, whenever you want?' then people will always answer Yes and be outraged if you ever force them to accept No.
Its a shame because like I said, some Renegade options make total sense to me. Choosing to kill the Feros settlers not out of malice but because the anti fungal grenades are entirely unproven to work in this context and you're tying your squad's hands by insisting they use them, to save the Spaceport instead of the City in the Javelin missile mission, taking Pitney For's bribe instead of turning him because Spectres need friends in low places too, agreeing in principle to sabotage the Genophage cure because otherwise you're caving to Blackmail and relations with the Krogan haven't improved at all (though I don't go through with it, refusing to shoot Mordin the back out of a sense of sorrow at killing Wrex), threatening the Quarians to back down or else you'll let the upgrade go through because they caused this and could end it but if they won't do the right thing you won't save them from the consequences of their foolish actions etc etc.
There are good and sensible Renegade options. In the main missions, Renegade is usually the more believable and logical choice. But in most other situations, the Renegade options come over as staggering overreactions, bizzarely psychotic and petty and just utterly inconsistent with others' perception of Sheperd. Would the Council really okay someone whos acts out in public like that to be a Spectre, would Anderson and Udina even propose someone like that?
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Post by Guardian on Mar 2, 2021 6:13:38 GMT
I actually preferred DA2’s way of going about it than DA:O, but in any case, I would have an approval system work primarily just for the interpersonal stuff, rather than really tying it into the main story. Like, characters who are duty-bound to serve on your ship aren’t just going to up and leave or betray you just because they don’t like you, but they could have a different disposition when you try to talk to them, so they’ll just keep things more professional rather than friendly, offering little to no opportunity to get to know them better, and obviously lock out their romance. I find Mass Effect companions are a bit too static in this respect, so you can just fulfill certain tasks and win them over even when you’re kind of a psycho.
I forgot about DA2, and thinking about it now, yeah, it really was the best handled of the three games. Inquisition's was still abysmal; but I do see what you're trying to say. I don't think it could hurt, to be honest.
I was pretty much a Paragon player - Renegade was just something I found myself not wanting to go down. And as for what's considered "right" or "wrong" is purely arbitrary (in determining Paragon/Renegade). We each let our morals and views help let us decide what's "right" and what's "wrong". Personally, the whole inconsistency of Renegade aside, I found a lot of their actions "wrong". I only ever took two Renegade options in my entire career and both came in ME 3 (shooting Udina and stabbing Kai Leng). And it's weird, because I saw shooting Udina as the "right" thing to do. My Shep was still a Specter, and his job was to protect the council; Udina drew a gun, becoming an active shooter situation, and he knew what he had to do. Stabbing Kai Leng was just pure, satisfactory payback. But those two options aside (maybe shooting the flammable tanker in Mordin's loyalty mission - because that's just sound tactics), I felt most of the Renegade options were "wrong". But again - that's just my opinion.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 2, 2021 7:25:42 GMT
I don't think Renegade/Paragon will return in the shape we know it. There might be two states such as action/delegate where you do most of the work yourself or you have your crew do it for you. I just don't believe a morality based one will return since morality is eye of the beholder territory and what might be the good approach for one person isn't for another or it becomes comical in the choice we are making. So something that can more easily be defined is what I am thinking will more likely happen then the old Paragon/Renegade system which I don't even think BioWare was that happy with especially when in the third game there were Paragon/Renegade/Reputation rewards.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 2, 2021 8:00:48 GMT
I don't think Renegade/Paragon will return in the shape we know it. There might be two states such as action/delegate where you do most of the work yourself or you have your crew do it for you. I just don't believe a morality based one will return since morality is eye of the beholder territory and what might be the good approach for one person isn't for another or it becomes comical in the choice we are making. So something that can more easily be defined is what I am thinking will more likely happen then the old Paragon/Renegade system which I don't even think BioWare was that happy with especially when in the third game there were Paragon/Renegade/Reputation rewards. And in the case of ME3, reputation system kind of offset some of the issues of balancing out the renegade and paragon. Honestly, I wish it was a thing back in ME2, because depending on how you paced your playthrough, you could find yourself screwed out of resolving one of the obligatory companion conflicts even if you were perfectly thorough with their dialogue.
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Post by Alfonsedode on Mar 2, 2021 10:57:04 GMT
I also think as OP that choices have only small consequences. (I cant bring myself to skip content though, so i havent experiment at all with fast play-through that impact the story more in ME3). But it s a logical game design. Cant make a difference too big or most player wont look at it as a choice. (I would have appreciated keeping the reaper alive in ME2 would have been a better war asset gain though) Also, many renegade option are just plain dumb and not ruthless as they could have been. And while ME3 reputation system made it better (as pointed out just above), it was a sign the moral compass was outdated. This locked me out of the Miranda\Jack one because whilst I'm mostly Paragon, I do pick Renegade if I feel the situation calls for it and\or the Paragon option is too absurdly trusting and unrealistic etc. I m pretty sure i alternate a lot too but never had to choose between those two. Even without paying attention a lot. AFAIRemember, it s old business
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Croatsky
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Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: CroGamer002
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Old BSN veteran, I guess.
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croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 2, 2021 11:05:14 GMT
Where’s the humor in assaulting someone? Go on, explain it. While I totally take your viewpoint, I do recall everyone laughing during this scene in the movie theater: el oh el There was more to the scene than just random assault on a minor. Assault itself isn't funny, context and build up is what makes that course of action funny.
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