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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 3, 2021 8:28:08 GMT
And the thread is back.
With 100% fewer accusations of supporting genocide, thanks.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 3, 2021 9:39:38 GMT
And the thread is back. With 100% fewer accusations of supporting genocide, thanks. I give it about 5 pages till it starts again.
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Post by wright1978 on Apr 3, 2021 9:44:54 GMT
I'm pretty sure someone at BioWare (not sure who) made a statement about not wanting to go back to binary choice options for dialogue prompts. While Paragon/Renegade offered a degree of simplicity in terms of what you might expect from taking a certain dialogue choice (or action), it was a relic of an older time where gradations and nuance weren't as prevalent in video game storytelling media. The lack of a Paragon/Renegade doesnt necessitate that your actions cant come across as "Goodie-Two-Shoes" or "Pure Evil" though. I think Dragon Age generally did okay in this regard. As for being able to have more dialogue options/choices that would fit the Renegade path? Sure. I just wish Renegae didnt always need to equate to everything you did being absolutely to the detriment of your main mission. That's partly why I hardly bothered with going renegade in the OT. My goal is to stop the Reapers, and yet many renegade options basically knee-cap my efforts to do so. Hell, I'd be okay if choosing the Renegade option led to this best outcome in a few situations. My argument against this is that the original games weren't binary as you had neutral option. Also the new approach doesn't seem to provide the range. It ends up being more of a range of tones (goody professional, goody emotional, goody logical etc)
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 3, 2021 15:16:24 GMT
My argument against this is that the original games weren't binary as you had neutral option. Also the new approach doesn't seem to provide the range. It ends up being more of a range of tones (goody professional, goody emotional, goody logical etc) You don't like the 50 flavours of saying yes? Kinda like Fallout 4 did it -Yes -No(yes) -No(lie) At least Fallout 4 did it without relying on the stupid fucking icons that convey "mood" and the flavour text is entirely non-descriptive of what you want to say. Bioware really needs to do a better job at their writing.
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Post by duskwanderer on Apr 3, 2021 17:13:36 GMT
Best place to solve that is remove the choice. As long as it's part of the game moving forward, we're fine. But I hope to god they don't make us do it for random crap.
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Post by michaeln7 on Apr 3, 2021 21:09:01 GMT
And the thread is back. With 100% fewer accusations of supporting genocide, thanks. I give it about 5 pages till it starts again. "I give him 20 minutes" - Squidward Tentacles
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 6, 2021 18:42:14 GMT
My argument against this is that the original games weren't binary as you had neutral option. Also the new approach doesn't seem to provide the range. It ends up being more of a range of tones (goody professional, goody emotional, goody logical etc) I'll agree. I could easily mix and match Paragon/Renegade choices. Always threw that merc out of Dantius Towers even when playing a mostly Paragon character. There are other good options where Renegade choices are the best thing to do even when playing a Paragon. Similarly, I'm sure Renegades could make Paragon choices. That's why we have terms like Paragade and Renegon. We players no it doesn't have to be black and white. I felt that MEA didn't offer enough to show how Ryder's choices impacted the overall theme of the game. Shep could genocide the krogan and rachni. Ryder had no similar options. It doesn't need to be genocide, because that's about as far from being a heroic protagonist as you can get, but there was nothing even remotely like that in MEA. Imagine the option to allow a colony, human or otherwise, to die off if it meant a "greater good" was served. Krogan annoying you? Bye-bye! Those aren't choices I'd make but they could be there. It could even follow up with Ryder's feelings about it, such as dismissive or significant guilt. That would be a gradient where Ryder would have made a more Renegon choice but doesn't necessarily make Ryder a Renegade. On the other side, Ryder could make a "good" choice, even know there might be a negative impact as a result. That would be more Paragade but not be a Paragon choice. The thing here is that it gives the option to make a less "light" character. I love Ryder as-is but I know Ryder's personality was a problem for a lot of people. The closest I see is Ryder potentially cheating on a romanced character with not one but two asari (Keri T'Vessa and Peebee) - just one more reason to dislike the species, since it seems to be a thing with them, going back to ME1.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 6, 2021 18:48:00 GMT
I gotta ask: which reporter are you talking about? Because I don't remember that you could punch Emily Wrong. Kalisah al-Jilani. Could do it three times.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 6, 2021 19:02:09 GMT
I gotta ask: which reporter are you talking about? Because I don't remember that you could punch Emily Wrong. Kalisah al-Jilani. Could do it three times. Ah, right, her. I don't think I ever did that. Then again, I only interacted with her in one trilogy playthough.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 7, 2021 1:55:33 GMT
Kalisah al-Jilani. Could do it three times. Ah, right, her. I don't think I ever did that. Then again, I only interacted with her in one trilogy playthough. I did it in ME1 by accident. She's a slimy journalist but I don't think a punch made sense.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 7, 2021 2:18:39 GMT
Ah, right, her. I don't think I ever did that. Then again, I only interacted with her in one trilogy playthough. I did it in ME1 by accident. She's a slimy journalist but I don't think a punch made sense. It didn't make sense. But it was kind of funny.
Reminded me of a time a 'reporter' was riding a pro wrestler about wrestling being fake. The wrestler slapped him pretty hard and asked is that fake. Wasn't really funny when happening to a real person, and I'm pretty sure he got arrested. I kind of wonder if that is where they got their inspiration.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 7, 2021 3:47:02 GMT
It’s OK for the lulz, but punching the reporter never really works for a “serious” playthrough where I’m trying to maintain at least some level of decency in my Shepard.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 7, 2021 5:03:08 GMT
It’s OK for the lulz, but punching the reporter never really works for a “serious” playthrough where I’m trying to maintain at least some level of decency in my Shepard. Agreed its why I only did it on one play through, mainly because they teased she dodges it in Me3 so I wanted to see the full routine. But since I knew I was going that way, I played the character overall for lulz.
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Post by Alfonsedode on Apr 7, 2021 8:08:31 GMT
I like punching her even if i shouldnt. Its fun and feels good. i cant resist an interrupt anyway, but i guess that s not the one i try to resist. though i cant remember how much she deserves it
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Post by ahglock on Apr 7, 2021 14:22:47 GMT
I like punching her even if i shouldnt. Its fun and feels good. i cant resist an interrupt anyway, but i guess that s not the one i try to resist. though i cant remember how much she deserves it Games are played to be fun, so have at it.
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Post by helios969 on Apr 8, 2021 8:17:53 GMT
It’s OK for the lulz, but punching the reporter never really works for a “serious” playthrough where I’m trying to maintain at least some level of decency in my Shepard. Me too for lulz with my ruthless femShep (just feels wrong to have a 200lb maleShep throwing a haymaker on 110lb woman). Mostly though it's just dumb...even the great Commander Shepard would be relieved of duty performing a stunt like that.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 17, 2021 20:28:34 GMT
Evil and Ruthless aren't always presented as such. How many players here allowed Balak to live in the Bringing down the Sky DLC in order to save four people, only to discover that he then goes on to kill hundreds of other Human's in ME3? If we go by defined morality, Surely the paragon choice in this situation would be to shoot that scumbag and let those four people die. Personally I'm happy that that Bioware did away with this idea of Paragon V Renegade, Good V Evil nonsense.
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Post by andydandymandy on Apr 18, 2021 23:03:08 GMT
I've never considered Paragon vs. Renegade to be Good vs. Evil. I've never considered Renegade in the Mass Effect games to be inherently evil.
Its basically deciding what kind of galaxy saving hero you want to be. Do you want to be a more Steve Rogers as Captain America type of galaxy saving hero, or do you want to be a Jack Bauer from 24 type of hero? Idealistic vs. pragmatic.
I think doing away with this didn't really work in Mass Effect Andromeda. Because they didn't replace it with anything that was as dynamic or as memorable as the Paragon or Renegade moments from the original trilogy.
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Post by Radec on Apr 20, 2021 6:39:45 GMT
Evil and Ruthless aren't always presented as such. How many players here allowed Balak to live in the Bringing down the Sky DLC in order to save four people, only to discover that he then goes on to kill hundreds of other Human's in ME3? If we go by defined morality, Surely the paragon choice in this situation would be to shoot that scumbag and let those four people die. Personally I'm happy that that Bioware did away with this idea of Paragon V Renegade, Good V Evil nonsense. Balak is a good example of Paragons never actually getting burned for stupid optimistic behavior. You let a madman who opportunistically turned a slave grab into an attempt to murder an entire colony of 4 million go.....because he's holding 4 people hostage. The only assurance you're given that he won't detonate the bomb the second he walks out the room is said mass murderering slaver douche's word. Anyway, that works out. Somehow. Then he goes on to kill hundreds of people in the Batarian Codes sidequest, but it's all offscreen and has no consequence to the player, so it doesn't really matter. What matters is Balak makes the batarian fleet worth an extra 15 war assets. Those 117 Alliance folks who got killed in the ship crash Balak caused weren't worth anything to the war, but this racist, mass murdering terrorist who literally just sabotaged an Alliance vessel and killed scores of people 5 minutes ago gives you extra points over the "pragmatic" path if you let him go. Wat?
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Post by Ascend on Apr 21, 2021 12:37:19 GMT
Evil and Ruthless aren't always presented as such. How many players here allowed Balak to live in the Bringing down the Sky DLC in order to save four people, only to discover that he then goes on to kill hundreds of other Human's in ME3? If we go by defined morality, Surely the paragon choice in this situation would be to shoot that scumbag and let those four people die. Personally I'm happy that that Bioware did away with this idea of Paragon V Renegade, Good V Evil nonsense. Balak is a good example of Paragons never actually getting burned for stupid optimistic behavior. You let a madman who opportunistically turned a slave grab into an attempt to murder an entire colony of 4 million go.....because he's holding 4 people hostage. The only assurance you're given that he won't detonate the bomb the second he walks out the room is said mass murderering slaver douche's word. Anyway, that works out. Somehow. Then he goes on to kill hundreds of people in the Batarian Codes sidequest, but it's all offscreen and has no consequence to the player, so it doesn't really matter. What matters is Balak makes the batarian fleet worth an extra 15 war assets. Those 117 Alliance folks who got killed in the ship crash Balak caused weren't worth anything to the war, but this racist, mass murdering terrorist who literally just sabotaged an Alliance vessel and killed scores of people 5 minutes ago gives you extra points over the "pragmatic" path if you let him go. Wat? Well put. It would be fine if it was one instance, but the game is littered with examples like these. Paragon is borderline boring, because all the consequences are boring, predictable, or non-existent.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 21, 2021 21:52:53 GMT
Keeping in mind that starting in ME1 “Renegade” playthroughs are meant to be ones in which Shepard embodies a mindset of “complete the mission at all costs, do whatever dirty tactic and make whatever sacrifice is necessary”, it always seemed strange to me that throughout the trilogy picking the renegade option rarely if ever leads to visibly better outcomes for the galaxy. "Visibly" is the key, of course. We do know that the krogan go extinct under certain circumstances. We do know that the geth or quarians are destroyed under certain circumstances. We do know that the entire galaxy is annihilated except Liara's message in a bottle under certain circumstances. We mostly don't see these consequences but they're there. I would argue that Renegade Shepard is pragmatic but can make outright evil decisions.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 21, 2021 22:07:10 GMT
"Visibly" is the key, of course. We do know that the krogan go extinct under certain circumstances. If you're referring to that one image, it would have to be very far into the future for the species to go extinct. Or all the other species ganged up on them to wiped them out. They had over 2 billion at the start of ME3. No idea how many died during the war, but I doubt they would go extinct any time soon. Unless something that caused them to go extinct in the near future, I say they will be around for a very, very long time regardless if the genophage is cured or not. I would say choosing the green is evil. Shepard is denying life to evolve more than what they're current at. Thing did say green is the final evolution of all life.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 21, 2021 22:14:05 GMT
"Visibly" is the key, of course. We do know that the krogan go extinct under certain circumstances. If you're referring to that one image, it would have to be very far into the future for the species to go extinct. Or all the other species ganged up on them to wiped them out. They had over 2 billion at the start of ME3. No idea how many died during the war, but I doubt they would go extinct any time soon. Unless something that caused them to go extinct in the near future, I say they will be around for a very, very long time regardless if the genophage is cured or not. I would say choosing the green is evil. Shepard is denying life to evolve more than what they're current at. Thing did say green is the final evolution of all life. Granted on krogan. We don't know the circumstances other than that the rachni appear to be in control of Tuchanka. Also, if we look at MEA, or even what Mordin said, the krogan are beginning to overcome the genophage. So maybe it's not extinction but I think Shepard treats it as such. Or at least implies it. I'm not up for another Green debate. You know my stance.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 21, 2021 22:19:14 GMT
If you're referring to that one image, it would have to be very far into the future for the species to go extinct. Or all the other species ganged up on them to wiped them out. They had over 2 billion at the start of ME3. No idea how many died during the war, but I doubt they would go extinct any time soon. Unless something that caused them to go extinct in the near future, I say they will be around for a very, very long time regardless if the genophage is cured or not. I would say choosing the green is evil. Shepard is denying life to evolve more than what they're current at. Thing did say green is the final evolution of all life. Granted on krogan. We don't know the circumstances other than that the rachni appear to be in control of Tuchanka. Also, if we look at MEA, or even what Mordin said, the krogan are beginning to overcome the genophage. So maybe it's not extinction but I think Shepard treats it as such. Or at least implies it. I'm not up for another Green debate. You know my stance. At least Synthesis green is better than Psycho Bunnies green. Everything is better than Psycho bunnies.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 26, 2021 13:34:49 GMT
Evil and Ruthless aren't always presented as such. How many players here allowed Balak to live in the Bringing down the Sky DLC in order to save four people, only to discover that he then goes on to kill hundreds of other Human's in ME3? If we go by defined morality, Surely the paragon choice in this situation would be to shoot that scumbag and let those four people die. Personally I'm happy that that Bioware did away with this idea of Paragon V Renegade, Good V Evil nonsense. Balak is a good example of Paragons never actually getting burned for stupid optimistic behavior. You let a madman who opportunistically turned a slave grab into an attempt to murder an entire colony of 4 million go.....because he's holding 4 people hostage. The only assurance you're given that he won't detonate the bomb the second he walks out the room is said mass murderering slaver douche's word. Anyway, that works out. Somehow. Then he goes on to kill hundreds of people in the Batarian Codes sidequest, but it's all offscreen and has no consequence to the player, so it doesn't really matter. What matters is Balak makes the batarian fleet worth an extra 15 war assets. Those 117 Alliance folks who got killed in the ship crash Balak caused weren't worth anything to the war, but this racist, mass murdering terrorist who literally just sabotaged an Alliance vessel and killed scores of people 5 minutes ago gives you extra points over the "pragmatic" path if you let him go. Wat? I tend to be about 90% Paragon 10% Renegade and this always bothered me, I am going to trust this guy's word that he won't detonate the bomb once he is clear? How does that even make sense. Same for the Rachni choice in ME3, as Garrus said in ME2, I am all for second chances but third and fourth ones...(why couldn't I kill the asari in me2?!?!). I would have liked the Queen to betray the alliance even if she was the original queen from ME1. She was surrounded by reaper tech for indefinite amount of time; what happened to indoctrination. Heck same can go for Legion. It lies to Shepard at least twice, does a 180 on it's stance about the geth evolving on their own. It only shows Shepard the geth in the best possible light while in the geth consensus, and doesn't even hint at how the geth likely killed billions of quarians while pushing them off Rannoch and their colonies. And letting it upload reaper code is the better choice?!?! The first time I played ME3 and Legion admitted to still having Reaper code, I was wondering where is my renegade prompt to blast it. I would love to see the player rewarded for the pragmatic choice more often.
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