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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 26, 2021 15:55:36 GMT
I think a better option would have been for the rachni to simply *not* exist in ME3 if I killed the queen, which to that end would mean there are no ravagers on the field, essentially making encounters a little easier as a result of you wiping out the bugs. The fact that the reapers spontaneously decide to just reconstitute this race out of nothing just seems kind of odd, but I guess they didn’t want to have an entire mission locked out because of a choice made way back in ME1.
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Post by Ascend on Apr 28, 2021 3:52:33 GMT
Most likely they left it in for everyone, because they didn't have time to implement another way to meet Grunt again.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 28, 2021 6:42:11 GMT
Most likely they left it in for everyone, because they didn't have time to implement another way to meet Grunt again. Eh, I feel like Grunt wouldn’t be too hard to incorporate into the game some other way, since a fair amount of the game takes place on Tuchanka regardless, so there’s plenty of opportunities for more krogan to show up.
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Post by sassafrassa on Apr 29, 2021 2:47:10 GMT
I doubt it. Paragon is by far more popular and I don't see that changing. The tone of the series is well established by this point and it's a setting where heroic tropes reign supreme.
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Post by Ascend on Apr 30, 2021 20:48:05 GMT
Most likely they left it in for everyone, because they didn't have time to implement another way to meet Grunt again. Eh, I feel like Grunt wouldn’t be too hard to incorporate into the game some other way, since a fair amount of the game takes place on Tuchanka regardless, so there’s plenty of opportunities for more krogan to show up. Agreed, if EA didn't push BioWare to release the game in two years.
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Post by Radec on Apr 30, 2021 21:57:46 GMT
I think a better option would have been for the rachni to simply *not* exist in ME3 if I killed the queen, which to that end would mean there are no ravagers on the field, essentially making encounters a little easier as a result of you wiping out the bugs. The fact that the reapers spontaneously decide to just reconstitute this race out of nothing just seems kind of odd, but I guess they didn’t want to have an entire mission locked out because of a choice made way back in ME1. Yeah, the crazy queen is an idiotic story idea. They could have at least not flipped the morality choices on the crazy queen all of the sudden just to save Paragons from what should be yet another consequence of mindless upper right spamming the dialogue wheel. Like the stated reason given to kill the queen in 1 is because leaving her alive could be dangerous given Rachni history. If you save her, the same moral conflict pops up again in 3 when that danger is played out in real time by her getting easily co opted by the Reapers and making troops for them. Oh but when Renegade Shep sees the crazy queen the previous caution goes out the window. She's just like "yep, seems safe now". Makes perfect sense.
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Post by sassafrassa on May 6, 2021 4:32:37 GMT
For Renegade to be "right" you just need Paragon to occasionally be wrong. I think just one significant Paragon choice blowing up your face would be appropriate.
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Pro vobis omne periculum.
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Post by jrpN7 on May 6, 2021 15:55:24 GMT
For Renegade to be "right" you just need Paragon to occasionally be wrong. I think just one significant Paragon choice blowing up your face would be appropriate. As a primarily paragon player, I must agree with this. It was interesting to select the paragon option in a difficult situation and watch dumbfoundedly how everything magically fell into place. Kumbaya. My intentions in real life are paragon but things fall apart anyway.
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Post by sassafrassa on May 6, 2021 16:45:29 GMT
For Renegade to be "right" you just need Paragon to occasionally be wrong. I think just one significant Paragon choice blowing up your face would be appropriate. As a primarily paragon player, I must agree with this. It was interesting to select the paragon option in a difficult situation and watch dumbfoundedly how everything magically fell into place. Kumbaya. My intentions in real life are paragon but things fall apart anyway. I think Paragon would be a lot more compelling to play if every now and then you had to confront the costs of Shepard's idealized motives and actions. Say, you let Balak go and he succeeds in wiping out a colony. A good taste of this was the "Save the Council" fallout in ME2 when you talk to Al'Jilani. It's a very good approach to have her bring up the names of the ships lost (giving them names makes them a bit more humanized) and have Shepard address the human lives lost. More Paragon choices needed to turn out that way where Paragon Shep is challenged by innocent bystanders affected by their choice and forced to justify or explain why their approach is still the best one even when it turns out wrong. It's easy to preach about the high road when the high road is free of impediments and any real sacrifice. Much harder to justify, to sell goodness, trust, and faith in others, when that faith is left down, that goodness absent, and that trust betrayed. It's easy to say that the killing of the Rachni Queen is wrong when the queen is peaceful and a friend, or at worst used again as an unwilling victim. However can you still standby your choice for mercy when the result is a merciless killer let loose? Does a hostile organism still have a right to exist? These are the kinds of moral questions Paragon should be tackling. The reason I gave up playing Paragon when I first played through ME2 was that it was just dramatically boring. My Shepard was never challenged or humbled by anything. There was nothing compelling about it. For Renegade at least there is more of a sense of loss and sacrifice. Even irony (perhaps unintentional) when your free-spirit screw-the-law renegade finds out that their actions have helped lead to a crack down on the Citadel, creating a police state. It would also be interesting to see both Paragon and Renegade somewhat inverted in the final act. Like this for example: A Paragon playthrough of the trilogy winds up with a peaceful and united galaxy to face the Reapers. Only a peaceful galaxy is not one that is militarily strong or prepared and will become locked down in discussion and negotiation when decisive action is needed. The cost of peace is complacency. A Renegade playthrough of the trilogy produces a galaxy sown with strife and mistrust. Though they are not united against the Reapers they are much better armed and able to more readily take independent action... but are in need of a tactful diplomat to organize them into a cohesive force. The cost of preparedness is paranoia.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 7, 2021 1:57:24 GMT
I think the arbitrary nature of the paragon/renegade system makes it better off just living and dying with the Shepard trilogy. Probably best for choices to simply be choices, rather than be color-coded.
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Post by Blast Processor on May 7, 2021 2:31:13 GMT
I think the arbitrary nature of the paragon/renegade system makes it better off just living and dying with the Shepard trilogy. Probably best for choices to simply be choices, rather than be color-coded. I guess if they don't do much with it, then fair enough, its probably best left in the dustbin of history. But I kinda liked it, sure the execution was mixed but I always think back to how the Council speech at the end of ME1 is completely different depending on whether Shepard is Paragon or Renegade (if the Council is saved of course). Shepard was a symbol for humanity, and my Renegade Shepard proved all the stereotypes about humans true in the eyes of the Council, but also humans get s*** done, so maybe there alright. LOL.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on May 13, 2021 15:24:21 GMT
The renegade path is basically telling "You make a bad decision it will always end badly for you." That is the point of the Renegade path. Should it have to be? So, extreme example, and probably not to everyone's taste. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had atomic bombs dropped on them. It ended Japan's part in WWII. That's a gain so far as the war goes. Beyond that, Japan rose up and has become one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. By any metric, that's a Renegade decision. It's also a net positive, both for the world and Japan. Not all bad choices lead to bad outcomes. As for "good" you could easily use the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is probably too complex for an RPG but it's not too far fetched.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 14, 2021 3:19:25 GMT
The renegade path is basically telling "You make a bad decision it will always end badly for you." That is the point of the Renegade path. Should it have to be? So, extreme example, and probably not to everyone's taste. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had atomic bombs dropped on them. It ended Japan's part in WWII. That's a gain so far as the war goes. Beyond that, Japan rose up and has become one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. By any metric, that's a Renegade decision. It's also a net positive, both for the world and Japan. Not all bad choices lead to bad outcomes. As for "good" you could easily use the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is probably too complex for an RPG but it's not too far fetched. Yeah, the problem is how to work in all of these complicated outcomes throughout the game to really make the system worthwhile. If you ask me, I think that maybe something like “Paragon” and “Renegade” should be left to very limited, major turning points in the story, maybe even just the ending. Some of the time, it feels pretty arbitrary as to which option adds points to which alignment. I’m just hoping that the interrupts follow the Andromeda model, where it actually tells us what we’re going to do, rather than vaguely telegraph some action. I don’t want to pistol whip someone when I had no idea it was going to happen.
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Post by sugarless on May 14, 2021 11:11:21 GMT
The renegade path is basically telling "You make a bad decision it will always end badly for you." That is the point of the Renegade path. Should it have to be? So, extreme example, and probably not to everyone's taste. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had atomic bombs dropped on them. It ended Japan's part in WWII. That's a gain so far as the war goes. Beyond that, Japan rose up and has become one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. By any metric, that's a Renegade decision. It's also a net positive, both for the world and Japan. Not all bad choices lead to bad outcomes. As for "good" you could easily use the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is probably too complex for an RPG but it's not too far fetched. Not a gain, a war crime of epic proportions. Net positive my ass!
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Post by dmc1001 on May 15, 2021 4:28:04 GMT
Should it have to be? So, extreme example, and probably not to everyone's taste. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had atomic bombs dropped on them. It ended Japan's part in WWII. That's a gain so far as the war goes. Beyond that, Japan rose up and has become one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. By any metric, that's a Renegade decision. It's also a net positive, both for the world and Japan. Not all bad choices lead to bad outcomes. As for "good" you could easily use the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is probably too complex for an RPG but it's not too far fetched. Not a gain, a war crime of epic proportions. Net positive my ass! Look at how it turned out. Net positive.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 15, 2021 10:32:56 GMT
Should it have to be? So, extreme example, and probably not to everyone's taste. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had atomic bombs dropped on them. It ended Japan's part in WWII. That's a gain so far as the war goes. Beyond that, Japan rose up and has become one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. By any metric, that's a Renegade decision. It's also a net positive, both for the world and Japan. Not all bad choices lead to bad outcomes. As for "good" you could easily use the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is probably too complex for an RPG but it's not too far fetched. Not a gain, a war crime of epic proportions. Net positive my ass! Especially since it wasn’t needed (even being controversial at the time let alone the decades since). And believed to have been mainly to scare the Soviets rather than beat the Japanese. But committing war crimes on Japanese cities was nothing new to the US in the war, since they’ve been doing it long before with the firebombing campaigns. But since they won, it’s taught as necessary and them being the good guys
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Post by dmc1001 on May 15, 2021 15:31:26 GMT
Not a gain, a war crime of epic proportions. Net positive my ass! Especially since it wasn’t needed (even being controversial at the time let alone the decades since). And believed to have been mainly to scare the Soviets rather than beat the Japanese. But committing war crimes on Japanese cities was nothing new to the US in the war, since they’ve been doing it long before with the firebombing campaigns. But since they won, it’s taught as necessary and them being the good guys I wasn't trying to suggest it was a good thing, nor was I saying many of the Renegade choices of Shep were good. The point was that you could have a long-term good outcome even when making the worst choices.
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Post by Phantom on May 15, 2021 16:59:13 GMT
War is hell there are no truly good choice.
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Post by sugarless on May 16, 2021 2:29:30 GMT
Not a gain, a war crime of epic proportions. Net positive my ass! Look at how it turned out. Net positive. So the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians and radiation-induced illnesses for decades afterward equal a net positive? You disgust me.
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2021 2:41:12 GMT
War is hell there are no truly good choice. Yes there. Working with Cerberus is a good choice. Destroying the reapers is a good choice. Choosing Udina as the councilor is a good choice. Recruiting Javik is a good choice. Picking up those provisions for the Honorable Mr. Rupert Gardner, the greatest chef in the universe, is a good choice.
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Post by ahglock on May 16, 2021 3:18:23 GMT
Can we please stop talking about real world history/politics.
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Post by Phantom on May 16, 2021 3:43:51 GMT
War is hell there are no truly good choice. Yes there. Working with Cerberus is a good choice. Destroying the reapers is a good choice. Choosing Udina as the councilor is a good choice. Recruiting Javik is a good choice. Picking up those provisions for the Honorable Mr. Rupert Gardner, the greatest chef in the universe, is a good choice. those are sane choices. I would have a proper return of Mr. Rupert Gardner in future Mass Effect game.
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Post by helios969 on May 16, 2021 8:45:43 GMT
Should it have to be? So, extreme example, and probably not to everyone's taste. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had atomic bombs dropped on them. It ended Japan's part in WWII. That's a gain so far as the war goes. Beyond that, Japan rose up and has become one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. By any metric, that's a Renegade decision. It's also a net positive, both for the world and Japan. Not all bad choices lead to bad outcomes. As for "good" you could easily use the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is probably too complex for an RPG but it's not too far fetched. Not a gain, a war crime of epic proportions. Net positive my ass! Go read the in depth history behind the decision. It was calculated that an invasion of mainland Japan would have taken an additional 2-3 years and cost half a million American troops and a couple million Japanese civilians and a complete destruction of the infrastructure. Both bombs resulted in something like 200K casualties and limited the destruction to two cities. More people died in the fire bombing of Tokyo prior to dropping the atomic bomb but nobody get's outraged over that. Look at it in more depth before pulling the moral outrage card. Early in ME1 when discussing Anderson's mission with Saren the question comes up about sacrificing 10,000 to save a million. I would do it. War is awful, inhumane, and really should be avoided if possible...but sometimes unavoidable.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2021 12:21:17 GMT
Look at how it turned out. Net positive. So the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians and radiation-induced illnesses for decades afterward equal a net positive? You disgust me. I see that you're oblivious to history. I mean, completely oblivious. Civilization was founded on this sort of thing.
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2021 12:29:49 GMT
Yes there. Working with Cerberus is a good choice. Destroying the reapers is a good choice. Choosing Udina as the councilor is a good choice. Recruiting Javik is a good choice. Picking up those provisions for the Honorable Mr. Rupert Gardner, the greatest chef in the universe, is a good choice. those are sane choices. I would have a proper return of Mr. Rupert Gardner in future Mass Effect game.
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