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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 7, 2021 23:11:59 GMT
It's funny. Most of the things you find strange and that don't add up are things that weren't in the books and that the showrunners added themselves. Figures. I had in mind that there were one of two things going on; either they'd gone off book (which you've just confirmed for me) or the books went into a lot more detail and exposition (as books have the luxury to do). I agree on most of them and am not sure where most of it goes. Still, I do find the show very intriguing even if it messes with the books a lot. I have decided I will just see it as it's own thing. Probably a good philosophy. I had zero expectations with this, but will have to make the same allowances that you are for Foundation when I come to watch Amazon's Lord of the Rings and - in particular - The Wheel of Time. There's just no way they can make the show that I've had in my head for the past twenty or so years, so I'll do my best to check my expectations at the door and watch with an open mind. RE the planetscapes and the behind the scenes stuff: I am listening to the accompanying podcast and it turns out, most of it was actually shot on location. E.g. Terminus was shot in Iceland, while toher scenes where shot in e.g. Fuerte Ventura. Apparently they went all over the world to shoot in very different locations to give the different planets an individual feel. Quite the ffort indeed. I am very happy that Apple puts that kind of money in such a high concept show. Not a lot of networks/streaming providers will put that kind of funding into something that isn't low brow action and guaranteed to get a crowd watching. So good on them, even if it really does mess with the books a lot at this point. That's cool - I just assumed there was a load of green screen (that is probably still used, but glad that some of what I'm seeing is real.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2021 23:40:51 GMT
Re: Harry So it was a plan between Harry and Boyfriend. That's fine - I can buy that. I had the same thought. Not sure what they're going for and the twist was poorly executed but it seems like there's a reason more than 'orphan-daddy-issues'. I have an issue with the motivation, though. His math couldn't account for an individual, he said, but Boyfriend being with Math Girl would 'ruin' everything...? Maybe it's explained further later on, but for the moment, it doesn't quite...add up. As I understand it; they mention a couple of times that the galaxy can pivot on an individuals actions, just that Abraxus can't predict them. It's a flaw in Abraxus basically. Re: (present day) Brother Dawn Seems like a nice kid. Also seems like he's going to get his gardener girlfriend killed for knowing too much. Yeah I don't see things ending well for her, or him either. Shame, I like em. Re: (present day) Brother Day Early episodes Brother Dawn grew into a very angry man. Understandable, watching the original Brother Day bomb a couple of planets into the Stone Age. I had guessed he'd be more like copy-decay Cleon and been nicer as a result. Apparently not! Re: Robot Lady A...religious robot...? I...Ok. I think possibly her beliefs are coming in to play with regards to the Cleons and the 'stagnating' of their soul. In a flashback to the death of the original Brother Dusk (now, briefly, Brother Darkness), she mentioned how he 'always leaves her'. I think she may hope to save the Empire by letting 'Empire' (the Cleons) die, and in so doing, let the soul of the original Cleon, a man she clearly cared for, grow. This part really intrigues me. Religion for her could be a security flaw she can exploit. Or maybe she genuinely believes? I don't know, I'm curious to find out. As an aside, if Cleons can be different to each other, then that is change. Even if it's detrimental. If we have an Angry-Cleon, and a copy-decay Cleon, then they are separate entities and by the (illogical) reasoning of their religion, he should have a soul since he is capable of growth. (I personally hate the notion that life needs death to have meaning. Huge failure of imagination and perspective.) Re: Math Girl Being awake during the Jump to Trantor gave her the ability to see the future, did I read that quick scene montage correctly? Or was she special - beyond super Math Skills - before the Jump and that caused her to wake? The latter I believe. She had the ability before the jump. (Born with it I assume.) That said, did she awaken herself, or was she... awoken, during the FTL? Was someone testing her by waking her? Also, the Warden on Terminus seems connected...via the Vault? More information required, but I'm intrigued to see where this particular story is headed. I'm glad this got screen-time and scarface-math-girl got less. This plot in the foundation is interesting. I like her as a protagonist better too. I don't have many theories on the Vault, I love the idea. Looking forward to seeing how this progresses. They're showing us a lot without trying to tell too much. This seems to be a big issue, and if I had to guess ties us right back to the issues at the start. Raych's poorly executed assassination seems poised to lead to huge plot movement but they're dancing around it. And missing some steps. Episode 8 Spoilers Below↓ (Pretty big spoilers for the episode.) I'll preface this by saying I watched it very late at night after a reasonable amount of cider and indica.
***
Wow. Probably my favourite episode. Demerzel and Halima's last scene was a ride. Normally I think I would've caught on to the real reason Demerzel was there in the first place early on but I was so caught up I didn't. Halima's actress knocked it out of the park. Her whole role really, very well portrayed. When she finally catches on to her imminent demise, that was done perfectly.
***
Copy-decay Cleon plot had some issues that were addressed when he showed us that he's extremely expendable. Actually, a lot of how all the Cleons act made more sense in that light. It was a small reveal that has deep reaching consequences. Cleons are trapped. They exist in an inherent state that naturally seeks to become better but cannot. I felt a bit bad for him before but I didn't realize he'd be dead within the day. (Pun intended.)
I will say his colour-blindness is a bit of a stretch given the sci-fi nature of his surroundings, and the intense everyday scrutiny he'd have had by Demerzel herself. Between the two facts it seems impossible he'd be as different as he is and not have been found out. Either literally in the tank, or by the AI that's watching his every move.
***
I liked Brother Day walking the spiral and the story within carried by his unfortunate partner. That he fell to one knee and was helped up, and in turn tried to help him. It was an interesting rollercoaster of wondering if he'd find some humanity but then watching him fail again, setting up the last amazing scene with Halima.
***
Still not sure how a crew of 10 barbarians with a bow can operate a ship the size of the Invictus. There's only so much space-magic that can take care of those problems. A ship that size just realistically would need a massive crew. After all this time, maintenance, etc... it's stretching my suspension of disbelief on this one. The story so far has been reasonably logical in most of these areas so I'm a bit perturbed. I don't think they'll answer this one either.
In terms of what happens with the Invictus I am curious though. I don't know how this one will end. Would be interesting if the Foundation wound up gaining control of it.
***
A second foundation... I was reaally wondering why Harry was so intent on going into a settlement around a black hole. This adds a decent layer I wasn't anticipating but makes sense. Time-dilation as a necessary component of the second foundation is smart. I liked it.
But again it's a directorial direction I didn't care for that seemed disjointed, exactly like the Raych reveal. They're in the accretion disk of a black hole going to... Harry's, home? Who the FUCK has a HOME around a black hole? And we're just meant to accept that? It's like they got the cart and horse in the wrong place again. "Oh look, there's a reason, again."
***
All in all a great episode despite my nitpicking, and I still can't get over the scene with Demerzel and Halima. Halima's actress is phenomenal in her role.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 8, 2021 0:05:58 GMT
As I understand it; they mention a couple of times that the galaxy can pivot on an individuals actions, just that Abraxus can't predict them. It's a flaw in Abraxus basically. Yeah, they have - what I was trying to convey was that arranging his own death based on something (someone, in this instance) that he had repeatedly said his math couldn't account for is a lot like bringing a nuke to knife fight. Pivoting on an individual was something he was aware of as a possibility, but what made him so sure that a ) Math Girl (I should really learn some of these names) was going to be a problem for his plan, because b ) Boyfriend wouldn't leave her and that c ) arranging his death by Boyfriends hand so that he could just explain it to everyone else and they'd be cool with it would solve everything....? This part really intrigues me. Religion for her could be a security flaw she can exploit. Or maybe she genuinely believes? I don't know, I'm curious to find out. As an aside, if Cleons can be different to each other, then that is change. Even if it's detrimental. If we have an Angry-Cleon, and a copy-decay Cleon, then they are separate entities and by the (illogical) reasoning of their religion, he should have a soul since he is capable of growth. (I personally hate the notion that life needs death to have meaning. Huge failure of imagination and perspective.) If it's an 'intentional' flaw, that would be very, very interesting. If it's real...intriguing, but has the potential to be a bit convoluted (if we're lucky). I too, dislike the idea of life needing death. I first remember seeing it explicitly stated in the Charlize Theron movie; Aeon Flux. Paraphrasing, but; "We're born, we live and we die. It's the only thing that makes anything about us matter." I think the point about the Cleons changing though, is they can, but they aren't allowed to. Current Day and Dusk are already noticing things about Dawn and now seeing the ready-to-go replacements really brings home their institutional belief that they're perfect and evolution of character and biology is weakness. So change can happen, but it is too quickly stamped out to be allowed to be sustained. The latter I believe. She had the ability before the jump. (Born with it I assume.) That said, did she awaken herself, or was she... awoken, during the FTL? Was someone testing her by waking her? If she were awoken by someone...who? The stretchy aliens were clearly taken aback. Who else could've been able to swing that kind of action? Someone on the ship would've had the easiest access, but that would mean they'd have to either be awake themselves (seems unlikely) or an external force which would seem like a rather gaping security hole if the cryo-sleep of a jumping ship could be hacked in that manner. I'm glad this got screen-time and scarface-math-girl got less. This plot in the foundation is interesting. I like her as a protagonist better too. I don't have many theories on the Vault, I love the idea. Looking forward to seeing how this progresses. Yeah - I like her as well. A lot of boyfriends get cast into the void of space in this show, though. I'll check back on your ep 8 spoiler once I've seen it!
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 8, 2021 0:10:35 GMT
Just finished episode 8 and well, it certainly looks like Gaal is supposed to be the binding element between all the different time periods, which is fine IMO. For a while there, I actually thought she might become the Mule. But then I looked up the Mule again and his mutation super power wasn't seeing the future but rather manipulating the emotions of the people around him, so it doesn't quite fit. It would have been a cool twist though because, since we do not know any backstory on the Mule, he can basically be anyone. As always, I liked what was going on around Empire but I am still not sold on Salvor's arch. Still not quite sure where exactly they are going with this. It certainly looks like the show is making her into one the first mentalics or something like that.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 8, 2021 20:22:39 GMT
Episode 8 I can comfortably understand Farah's rage, now. That opening scene was...awful. Wow. Probably my favourite episode. Demerzel and Halima's last scene was a ride. Normally I think I would've caught on to the real reason Demerzel was there in the first place early on but I was so caught up I didn't. Halima's actress knocked it out of the park. Her whole role really, very well portrayed. When she finally catches on to her imminent demise, that was done perfectly. Agreed 100% on everything here. It was great. They exist in an inherent state that naturally seeks to become better but cannot. Life - even...unnatural life - is always seeking evolution, always seeking change. But they cannot permit themselves that. Nature versus nurture. Nurture can hold out for a time, a long time, in this case. But eventually Nature will always win. I liked Brother Day walking the spiral and the story within carried by his unfortunate partner. That he fell to one knee and was helped up, and in turn tried to help him. Wife and I were convinced that the old man was a hallucination Cleon - this perfect physical specimen with impossible strength of will - was struggling, stumbling all over the place and the old guy was just sauntering along, keeping up, without passing. Turns out not, but it would've been in keeping with Cleon's ego to manifest someone that couldn't surpass him, but would also give him an opportunity to be noble. Still not sure how a crew of 10 barbarians with a bow can operate a ship the size of the Invictus. There's only so much space-magic that can take care of those problems. A ship that size just realistically would need a massive crew. After all this time, maintenance, etc... it's stretching my suspension of disbelief on this one. The story so far has been reasonably logical in most of these areas so I'm a bit perturbed. I don't think they'll answer this one either. In terms of what happens with the Invictus I am curious though. I don't know how this one will end. Would be interesting if the Foundation wound up gaining control of it. *** A second foundation... I was reaally wondering why Harry was so intent on going into a settlement around a black hole. This adds a decent layer I wasn't anticipating but makes sense. Time-dilation as a necessary component of the second foundation is smart. I liked it. But again it's a directorial direction I didn't care for that seemed disjointed, exactly like the Raych reveal. They're in the accretion disk of a black hole going to... Harry's, home? Who the FUCK has a HOME around a black hole? And we're just meant to accept that? It's like they got the cart and horse in the wrong place again. "Oh look, there's a reason, again." I guess we're going to see how much being awake during a jump messes with an unaugmented human mind... I do agree that it seems unlikely Invictus could be manned by such a small crew, but then...that sentry gun had been just floating there for 700 years, waiting. The jump drive was constantly drawing what must be enormous amounts of energy. I think if we're talking active invasion on a similarly equipped planet, then yeah, big crew required. But to just keep it 'upright' for a jump into the centre of a planet? It seems like the tech for that can be managed fairly simply. They had individual pods for tasks on the bridge, so I'd guess that a vessel like that served a dual purpose. Planetary assault, managed by a small key crew on the bridge, and troop transport for ground incursion once the main defences were neutralised. The black hole planet, though...yeah. I mean, it gives a clever little explanation as to why Harry was always ahead of the curve, but still. Of all the physics breaking activities in sci-fi stories, this gets close to taking the cake.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 8, 2021 20:35:33 GMT
Just finished episode 8 and well, it certainly looks like Gaal is supposed to be the binding element between all the different time periods, which is fine IMO. For a while there, I actually thought she might become the Mule. But then I looked up the Mule again and his mutation super power wasn't seeing the future but rather manipulating the emotions of the people around him, so it doesn't quite fit. It would have been a cool twist though because, since we do not know any backstory on the Mule, he can basically be anyone. As always, I liked what was going on around Empire but I am still not sold on Salvor's arch. Still not quite sure where exactly they are going with this. It certainly looks like the show is making her into one the first mentalics or something like that. On Gaal...chances of... ...The Invictus jump at the end of Ep 8 interfering with her cryopod's 100+ year journey to her home world and thus bringing her into the present day conflict/story?
With that time that will go by on her trip, I'd say her planet will be nothing but an uninterrupted ocean by the time she gets there. Sea levels were visibly rising within her lifetime before she left, so I'd say that after between 150-200 years (her 34 to the Harry-ship plus the journey home) that if anyone is still alive there, they're on a boat, and not a house on stilts.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 14, 2021 20:33:34 GMT
Thoughts on Episode 9...(?) Copy Decay Cleon Poor kid. Imagine spending your entire life in fear that your 'brothers' would discover you were different and kill you, and then summoning the will to escape to be with the woman that loves you. Only to find she doesn't love you. She loves a version of you that isn't different. Except that it/he is. Imagine going for a shower and then winding up stuck in a chair having nano-bots removed from your body. Sal and Terminus Is Sal the person who grew from the embryo that Gaal had removed while on the ship...? Because, otherwise the connection Sal clearly has with her is even weirder than it currently appears to be. Regarding the vault and...well, who showed up...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 23:28:34 GMT
So first off, I managed to lose not one but two bloody replies. Closed a window without thinking, and then firefox crashed. $!*&#@!( ...moving on. Ep 9 was great, couple things I got right, couple things I didn't, and one big one I didn't see coming. (That in retrospect is obvious.)
Episode 8 Wife and I were convinced that the old man was a hallucination Cleon - this perfect physical specimen with impossible strength of will - was struggling, stumbling all over the place and the old guy was just sauntering along, keeping up, without passing. Turns out not, but it would've been in keeping with Cleon's ego to manifest someone that couldn't surpass him, but would also give him an opportunity to be noble. That would've been an interesting turn, very plausible. I guess we're going to see how much being awake during a jump messes with an unaugmented human mind... I wonder if her brain qualifies as "unaugmented"... There's a part in ep 9 where Hugo asks Salvor how she woke up so quick after the jump. She says, "I can't explain how or why, but the jump just didn't effect me." I laughed. Didn't effect you hmm? Either that's completely true which is interesting, or we get to see some long term side effects, which is also interesting. Kind of a win/win on the, "you're my entertainment" front. Maybe not so win/win for her though. Thoughts on Episode 9...(?) Copy Decay Cleon Poor kid. Imagine spending your entire life in fear that your 'brothers' would discover you were different and kill you, and then summoning the will to escape to be with the woman that loves you. Only to find she doesn't love you. She loves a version of you that isn't different. Except that it/he is. Imagine going for a shower and then winding up stuck in a chair having nano-bots removed from your body. That was unfortunate if not altogether unexpected. Just before her betrayal, when the scene changed to him seeing how wonderful the trek to her home was through his imagining of her I got worried. Felt like setup from a directorial perspective. Setting some emotional bowling pins up to knock em down. I didn't at all suspect him being different was part of a long con though. He's a victim a few times over; quite the neat little tragedy rolled up into a Cleon. From the perspective of his brothers I think it makes sense to ditch him. He's now spent so much of his life "different" I'd question his capacity to be Empire similarly to themselves. Also wondering if they do keep him around, will these experiences sour him, like the skybridge destruction on the then-Dawn. Creating an even bigger menace when copy-decay becomes Day. Like the star wars fist/sand quote from Leia to Tarkin. The more the Cleons grip the more they'll incite rebellion. Only it's getting worse on a generational timeline. Also as an aside, her managing to con Cleon into loving her made a lot more sense when we found out she really loved another version. She had genuine inspiration to draw from. One of those weird things that makes the betrayal so much worse but a tiny bit better. Sal and Terminus Is Sal the person who grew from the embryo that Gaal had removed while on the ship...? I completely forgot about that, makes absolute sense. Especially the blackout-memories transferring over. Regarding the vault and...well, who showed up... That now seems rather obvious but I had no clue what was in that vault. I was getting ahead of things and thinking of some very abstract solutions. I liked that reveal, and that he'd engineered it to try to get the three systems united. I'd actually considered that way back in episodes 2-4ish but rejected the idea later. I appreciated that the Anacreon first officer guy was significantly more reasonable than the huntress. They'd made a point of that earlier and it paid off. *** I'm wondering when, or rather how, Raych will show up and if we get some more info on his actions between setting Gaal adrift and, well, dying. Also, death is looking less permanent in this verse. Maybe a RaychAI at Foundation2? rAIch? >.> <.< Maybe a gAIl later?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 15, 2021 0:00:43 GMT
I wonder if her brain qualifies as "unaugmented"... There's a part in ep 9 where Hugo asks Salvor how she woke up so quick after the jump. She says, "I can't explain how or why, but the jump just didn't effect me." I laughed. Didn't effect you hmm? Either that's completely true which is interesting, or we get to see some long term side effects, which is also interesting. Kind of a win/win on the, "you're my entertainment" front. Maybe not so win/win for her though. Oh, she's clearly special. By unaugmented I was referring to the Spacers or something similar. A deliberate manipulation of someones mind. I, too, find it hard to believe the "...just didn't effect me" line, but we'll see. From the perspective of his brothers I think it makes sense to ditch him. He's now spent so much of his life "different" I'd question his capacity to be Empire similarly to themselves. Also wondering if they do keep him around, will these experiences sour him, like the skybridge destruction on the then-Dawn. Creating an even bigger menace when copy-decay becomes Day. Like the star wars fist/sand quote from Leia to Tarkin. The more the Cleons grip the more they'll incite rebellion. Only it's getting worse on a generational timeline. Also as an aside, her managing to con Cleon into loving her made a lot more sense when we found out she really loved another version. She had genuine inspiration to draw from. One of those weird things that makes the betrayal so much worse but a tiny bit better. I'm sure you're right...I know you are, but still...hope is a horrible thing. The only sliver of it in my mind is the knowledge of what Day went through during the Spiral. He reached the waters, after a nearly unimaginable ordeal, and the waters deemed him unworthy of a vision. Worse, a robot who has served his dynasty since the first received one. This Day is the Dawn that watched - current - Dusk scorch two worlds for the - unproven - crimes of a few. He has some damage. He might return to Trantor with...maybe not a new philosophy, but one that is less rigid and unforgiving. Pardoning Dawn may doom the Cleons, but he might see it as a window to preserving the Empire. That now seems rather obvious but I had no clue what was in that vault. I was getting ahead of things and thinking of some very abstract solutions. I liked that reveal, and that he'd engineered it to try to get the three systems united. I'd actually considered that way back in episodes 2-4ish but rejected the idea later. I appreciated that the Anacreon first officer guy was significantly more reasonable than the huntress. They'd made a point of that earlier and it paid off My questions re: the vault are now...if this was his plan all along, how did he arrange to get it there so far in advance of the settlers of the Foundation? I'm sure he was above average in terms of wealth and influence, but that thing is some kick arse tech. My ideas around it were that it was some kind of temporal device - future Foundation reaching back to early Foundation, but something had gone awry. I'm wondering when, or rather how, Raych will show up and if we get some more info on his actions between setting Gaal adrift and, well, dying. Also, death is looking less permanent in this verse. Maybe a RaychAI at Foundation2? rAIch? >.> <.< Maybe a gAIl later? We might get RAIch - banning you for that wordplay, by the way - but wasn't Harry's plan for Raych to stay behind, explain everything and then disappear to the ship Gaal wound up on? Unless Holo-Harry was lying to Gaal, that would indicate that Raych's death wasn't part of the plan and hadn't been accounted for.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 0:40:12 GMT
I'm sure you're right...I know you are, but still...hope is a horrible thing. The only sliver of it in my mind is the knowledge of what Day went through during the Spiral. He reached the waters, after a nearly unimaginable ordeal, and the waters deemed him unworthy of a vision. Worse, a robot who has served his dynasty since the first received one. This Day is the Dawn that watched - current - Dusk scorch two worlds for the - unproven - crimes of a few. He has some damage. He might return to Trantor with...maybe not a new philosophy, but one that is less rigid and unforgiving. Pardoning Dawn may doom the Cleons, but he might see it as a window to preserving the Empire. I'm rooting for copy-decay too, I hope he gets to break the mould (in a good way). That's it not all a pure decline of Empire/Day. Her vision is intriguing too. ...I wonder if she saw the decline of the Empire. Shit, now I wonder if she's in league with Harry. Her line, "you always leave me" hits differently in that light. My questions re: the vault are now...if this was his plan all along, how did he arrange to get it there so far in advance of the settlers of the Foundation? I'm sure he was above average in terms of wealth and influence, but that thing is some kick arse tech. In terms of manufacturing the tech I'd assume they had the... time... at the blackhole foundation. In terms of how it got there, Harry has Jump tech? My ideas around it were that it was some kind of temporal device - future Foundation reaching back to early Foundation, but something had gone awry. Maybe a means of communication between the two foundations? Or better yet a "stargate" of sorts? A modification of Imperial jump tech? We might get RAIch - banning you for that wordplay, by the way I accept punishment in the form of increased Warning Points but wasn't Harry's plan for Raych to stay behind, explain everything and then disappear to the ship Gaal wound up on? Unless Holo-Harry was lying to Gaal, that would indicate that Raych's death wasn't part of the plan and hadn't been accounted for. This part I'm not sure on at all. I'm hoping it's elaborated on in the final ep this season. Mostly what I'm going off of in terms of RaychAI was his death seemed... odd. Not willing per se, but accepted? That said, I could just be seeing...
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 15, 2021 1:51:27 GMT
I'm rooting for copy-decay too, I hope he gets to break the mould (in a good way). That's it not all a pure decline of Empire/Day. Her vision is intriguing too. ...I wonder if she saw the decline of the Empire. Shit, now I wonder if she's in league with Harry. Her line, "you always leave me" hits differently in that light. Harry? Shit - I was thinking she was in league with the group trying to replace copy decay Cleon with their own. Original Dusk, on his way to his own cremation felt something was wrong with the child, knew it. They claimed they'd changed him from birth. How? She had opportunity - one of I'm guessing only 4 people with access everywhere. Means - honestly, the tech to do it seems like the lowest hurdle to overcome in this world. Motive - her religion and it's views on genetic cloning, plus her affection for the original Cleon. In terms of manufacturing the tech I'd assume they had the... time... at the blackhole foundation. In terms of how it got there, Harry has Jump tech? Maybe a means of communication between the two foundations? Or better yet a "stargate" of sorts? A modification of Imperial jump tech? I guess...my idea around it wasn't really fully formed as we knew almost nothing about it, other than it pre-dated the Foundation and was largely impervious to...everything. I accept punishment in the form of increased Warning Points I'm thinking a sizeable increase...7 Warning Points? This part I'm not sure on at all. I'm hoping it's elaborated on in the final ep this season. Mostly what I'm going off of in terms of RaychAI was his death seemed... odd. Not willing per se, but accepted? That said, I could just be seeing... It was odd, definitely agreed there. My feeling on it is that they've portrayed it as a mistake that has jeopardized everything, mostly to Gaal, who they had no reason I can think of to lie to. Raych returning as some form of AI or...clone. Do we know nuHarry is an AI? What if he's a clone, made in the same manner as the Cleons? My head is starting to hurt. Either way; The book readers who check out this thread will probably be laughing their heads off.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 2:22:46 GMT
Harry? Shit - I was thinking she was in league with the group trying to replace copy decay Cleon with their own. Original Dusk, on his way to his own cremation felt something was wrong with the child, knew it. This sounds pretty damn plausible. I like it more than Harry. That potentially sets up series-antagonists on the same level as the Foundation. (Or at least 'season2' adversaries.) If it's true it's, actually it's another bloody AI war. Blackhole HA.I.rry vs Demerzel. Hmmm... In terms of manufacturing the tech I'd assume they had the... time... at the blackhole foundation. In terms of how it got there, Harry has Jump tech? I guess...my idea around it wasn't really fully formed as we knew almost nothing about it, other than it pre-dated the Foundation and was largely impervious to...everything. Hopefully some explanations we'll get along the way will tackle this one too. If not outright. I'm thinking a sizeable increase...7 Warning Points? I think that's how many I had back on the old boards, wait maybe 9. A few of us started to try to collect all the different mods. IIRC Biowaremod2 liked me the most. Never did catch em all though. Missed a few of the early ones when I was only around for DA:O stuff like the golem companion. It was odd, definitely agreed there. My feeling on it is that they've portrayed it as a mistake that has jeopardized everything, mostly to Gaal, who they had no reason I can think of to lie to. Raych returning as some form of AI or...clone. Do we know nuHarry is an AI? What if he's a clone, made in the same manner as the Cleons? My head is starting to hurt. I'm not sure what nuHarry is, could definitely be a clone now you say it. Ditto on the lying thing, seems like a plot-expediter rather than intentional? Her character certainly seems like a gigantic bridge. The book readers who check out this thread will probably be laughing their heads off. Was thinking that earlier. AnDromedary Which of these closest approximates your feelings reading these? A, B, or C. A*** B*** C
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 15, 2021 5:13:06 GMT
I'm not sure what nuHarry is, could definitely be a clone now you say it. Ditto on the lying thing, seems like a plot-expediter rather than intentional? Her character certainly seems like a gigantic bridge. The thing we're not sure about, either way, is how available the technology is to achieve either of these things. But he has to be one of them, right? There's no secret option C that we're missing. We know he can digitise his mind - holoHarry - but further than that is unclear. Is the cloning tech the Cleons use hidden? It's almost certainly forbidden to any other than Empire. But the empire fought a war to destroy the robots thousands of years ago. Surely the tech to create them is equally difficult to come across. Ugh - I started mildly impressed and now I'm obsessed. I just know the last episode in a few days is going to leave us with at least two mindblowing questions that we won't get answers to for months.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 18, 2021 1:34:29 GMT
Ha! FINALLY got around to watching Episode 9. Harry? Shit - I was thinking she was in league with the group trying to replace copy decay Cleon with their own. Original Dusk, on his way to his own cremation felt something was wrong with the child, knew it. This sounds pretty damn plausible. I like it more than Harry. That potentially sets up series-antagonists on the same level as the Foundation. (Or at least 'season2' adversaries.) If it's true it's, actually it's another bloody AI war. Blackhole HA.I.rry vs Demerzel. Hmmm... I guess...my idea around it wasn't really fully formed as we knew almost nothing about it, other than it pre-dated the Foundation and was largely impervious to...everything. Hopefully some explanations we'll get along the way will tackle this one too. If not outright. I'm thinking a sizeable increase...7 Warning Points? I think that's how many I had back on the old boards, wait maybe 9. A few of us started to try to collect all the different mods. IIRC Biowaremod2 liked me the most. Never did catch em all though. Missed a few of the early ones when I was only around for DA:O stuff like the golem companion. It was odd, definitely agreed there. My feeling on it is that they've portrayed it as a mistake that has jeopardized everything, mostly to Gaal, who they had no reason I can think of to lie to. Raych returning as some form of AI or...clone. Do we know nuHarry is an AI? What if he's a clone, made in the same manner as the Cleons? My head is starting to hurt. I'm not sure what nuHarry is, could definitely be a clone now you say it. Ditto on the lying thing, seems like a plot-expediter rather than intentional? Her character certainly seems like a gigantic bridge. The book readers who check out this thread will probably be laughing their heads off. Was thinking that earlier. AnDromedary Which of these closest approximates your feelings reading these? A, B, or C. A*** B*** C I'd say mostly C but honestly, I am kinda in the same boat here. The series diverges massively from the books at this point, so I got no idea where they are taking this. I feel oddly divided about this. On the one hand, it's kinda cool and exciting not to know what's going on, on the other hand, it's also maddening how they digress in some places. I am still particularly unimpressed with Salvor. They just keep butchering this character. Just a reminder: In the book, the saying she so completely rejects in the series "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" is supposed to be Salvor's own mantra, not that of her dad. Episode 9 spoiler: When she shot Phara through the neck, I was saying that phrase out loud to the monitor. Salvor is the ultimate pacifist in the book, in the show so far, she solved everything with brute force. I REALLY hope all this violence will severely bite her in the ass at some point but if I were to compare this to the book (which - again - is barely possible at this point) we should be close to the end of her current arc, so I don't quite see how there can still be significant character growth there. About the vault (and here come some potential spoilers from the books as to what the ending of Ep9 might be about): IIRC (and it's been a while) in the books, the Terminus dwellers brought the vault with them. Here it was already there, presumably installed by Hari in advance before the Foundation even took off. Maybe the authors made it this way, to add to the mystique, I don't know, this is new in the show and they've already proven that they'll just crap all over the source material if it pleases them. The null field was never a thing in the books, the vault was just impenetrable, that was it. In the books, the content of the vault is a recorded holographic message from Hari that reveals something, which I am not going to spoil here but the fact Hari reveals in the book wouldbasically make no difference in the show right now as the situation is very different already. But if they stick with the book at least on the technical terms, the Seldon we saw at the end should be another holo-Seldon. Also, we are at a point in the show, where we are very close to the end of the first third of book 1 and very close to another point where the narrative leaps forward in time. So it would make sense that the first season ends with the resolution of the first Seldon Crisis and season 2 should start another 3 decades later. Will they do it this way? I got no idea. About the second foundation (again, some book background spoilers): Ok, as I said, we are roughly 1/3 through book 1. The Second Foundation doesn't really appear (or rather, it's not really revealed) in the books until much much later in the trilogy, so it shouldn't really have much impact on things until much later in the show. But again, the show may shuffle things around a bit and - while the reader doesn't know about it - the Second Foundation was somewhat active during the earlier events, so maybe the show will give us a different perspective here. Regarding the Empire storyline: This remains to be excellent IMO. May have to do with the fact, that the authors are really free to do whatever they want here, since the Empire's perspective during its fall is never covered in the books, so everything goes there. And IMO they are delivering some great stories in that one. Love how Copy-Decay-Dawn (CDD) got duped by all sides there. The plan of the insurgents was really good but, well, not so easy to beat the Empire after all. Very cool. Really curious what will happen to CDD in the next episode. The only logical way forward would be to kill him and get his tank clone (I understood correctly, that the other one we saw now was a third clone generated by the insurgents, right?) So in summary, not everything is great about this series, but still, looking forward to the final episode.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 18, 2021 1:51:28 GMT
CDD The only logical way forward would be to kill him and get his tank clone (I understood correctly, that the other one we saw now was a third clone generated by the insurgents, right?) That was my understanding, as well. What I'm less clear on is - sans help from robot lady - exactly how they would've pulled off something like that. Thanks for the rest, though. I guess we're safe to consider this series as being "inspired by", rather than "adapted from", then.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 23:49:19 GMT
Well. That's a wrap for S1. Quick search says we're getting a season 2 though, so yay! Overall I'd say I liked it. Bit disjointed, which is understandable, but intriguing. *** Ep10 When the kids are wondering if Hari's a ghost or not and then one pokes him I had to laugh. Felt exactly like... Do we know nuHarry is an AI? What if he's a clone I'm not sure what nuHarry is, could definitely be a clone now you say it. *** Seemed odd that Hari was so dismissive of Salvor. Thought he would've been extremely curious. ***
I still quite like Rowan, the Anacreon first officer. Hasn't played a huge role but has done it well. His character seems reasonable and pragmatic. ***
Azura... well Day certainly came up with a suitably imperial and imperious sentence for her. *** Poor Hugo. Might be the captain of a big ass warship but he's been kicked to the curb a couple times over. *** Salvors mom being the one that messed with the genetics seems obvious but not the direction I was thinking. *** Copy Decay Cleon. Oof. Just oof.
Day's decision though, he did learn something from the spiral! He was capable of change.
For a second there I thought Day was going to disintegrate himself along with CDD.
The further knowledge that they're all somewhat corrupted is quite something. Seems like it'd take a lot of access to pull off. *cough* Demerzel *cough*
*** We're left with quite a few questions. Foundation 2, how extensive this group of insurgents is. Let alone what happened during Gaal and Salvor's extended sleep. I was hoping to have a few more answers but since it's renewed I'll manage.
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Post by dazk on Nov 21, 2021 1:14:25 GMT
So I am about half way book 2, having painfully forcing myself through book 1 it has gotten better and I will now probably finish the trilogy.
From comments I have read above without reading any spoilers do people who have read the books recommend I do or don't finish then before watching the show which will mean yet another subscription but maybe i can watch it all in the free trial period.
And do you recommend the show regardless?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 1:02:19 GMT
Finally watched ep10. Seemed odd that Hari was so dismissive of Salvor. Thought he would've been extremely curious. That was weird, right? He was expecting Gaal to be there, she wasn't and then there's the person who is having all these visions from the lives of Raych and Gaal and...you don't ask questions...? Azura... well Day certainly came up with a suitably imperial and imperious sentence for her. That was brutal. And I thought CDD was done for, in that scene. Copy Decay Cleon. Oof. Just oof.
Day's decision though, he did learn something from the spiral! He was capable of change. Yaaaasss. His final scene indicates that he's just about run out of fucks to give for the dynastic legacy, as well. It has to be. There is just no other way that makes sense, unless it is some secret, hidden individual we've not been introduced to yet, which would be weak. Her final scene.... A little unnerving. I felt like she was about to demand someone hand over their clothes, their boots and their motorcycle. We're left with quite a few questions. Foundation 2, how extensive this group of insurgents is. Let alone what happened during Gaal and Salvor's extended sleep. I was hoping to have a few more answers but since it's renewed I'll manage. Gaal's reaction to finding all of nothing above the surface of the water was weird to me. What was she expecting? But it has now been nearly...180 years since the slow ship set out for Terminus from Trantor, right? So if they return to Terminus together...somehow...it is going to be a very different place to the one Salvor left behind. Overall, really enjoyed it. As predicted, the finale left more questions than answers, but it is a fun theory-crafting series, with great performances and production value. Looking forward to s2.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 5:58:20 GMT
More s1 spoilers below↓ Yaaaasss. His final scene indicates that he's just about run out of fucks to give for the dynastic legacy, as well. I really didn't expect him to go that route. I'm happy he did. I wonder if we'll see any more of them after the time-jump. Fighting between Dusk and Day would expedite the fall considerably, and seems plausible. It has to be. There is just no other way that makes sense, unless it is some secret, hidden individual we've not been introduced to yet, which would be weak. Only other thing I can think of with that much access is their spymaster. But given the times involved they'd have to corrupt the position, not just the man. As you said, weak. A little unnerving. I felt like she was about to demand someone hand over their clothes, their boots and their motorcycle. I definitely got a terminator vibe too. Her madness makes me wonder. She doesn't seem like a grand evil architect so much as a slave under duress. But, as she put, "it's confusing not to commit to one reality." So, you're committing to more than one reality? Gaal's reaction to finding all of nothing above the surface of the water was weird to me. What was she expecting? Seemed like the scene required less surprise and more, sadness, loss. Maybe acceptance. But it has now been nearly...180 years since the slow ship set out for Terminus from Trantor, right? So if they return to Terminus together...somehow...it is going to be a very different place to the one Salvor left behind. They seem to be lacking a direction. Gaal's been reactive most of the time. Salvor was acting but she got where she was headed. At least Hugo got the Invictus in the divorce. Poor guy.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 22, 2021 6:44:51 GMT
Well, after seeing Ep10 now, I can safely say that they fully left the books behind now and are 100% doing their own thing. This might be a good thing for season 2. When it was still kinda half following the book, I got mad about some character changes, now it really just is a completely different story, where some names and some backstory are the same. So I am about half way book 2, having painfully forcing myself through book 1 it has gotten better and I will now probably finish the trilogy. From comments I have read above without reading any spoilers do people who have read the books recommend I do or don't finish then before watching the show which will mean yet another subscription but maybe i can watch it all in the free trial period. And do you recommend the show regardless? Well, I think it is a very very good scifi series in its own right. It is, however, not a very good adaptation of the books. Maybe it is actually more enjoyable to watch if you haven't read the books and therefore don't have to think about how much they mess with the source material in places. It's too late for you now though, since season 1 only covers the events of about the first third of the first book. So everything that happens in the series, you will already be way beyond int he books anyway. I'd say definitely give it a watch but prepare to see something very different from the books here. It really is only "inspired bt" rather then "adapted from" in this case.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 8:38:57 GMT
More s1 spoilers below↓ Yaaaasss. His final scene indicates that he's just about run out of fucks to give for the dynastic legacy, as well. I really didn't expect him to go that route. I'm happy he did. I wonder if we'll see any more of them after the time-jump. Fighting between Dusk and Day would expedite the fall considerably, and seems plausible. It has to be. There is just no other way that makes sense, unless it is some secret, hidden individual we've not been introduced to yet, which would be weak. Only other thing I can think of with that much access is their spymaster. But given the times involved they'd have to corrupt the position, not just the man. As you said, weak. A little unnerving. I felt like she was about to demand someone hand over their clothes, their boots and their motorcycle. I definitely got a terminator vibe too. Her madness makes me wonder. She doesn't seem like a grand evil architect so much as a slave under duress. But, as she put, "it's confusing not to commit to one reality." So, you're committing to more than one reality? Gaal's reaction to finding all of nothing above the surface of the water was weird to me. What was she expecting? Seemed like the scene required less surprise and more, sadness, loss. Maybe acceptance. But it has now been nearly...180 years since the slow ship set out for Terminus from Trantor, right? So if they return to Terminus together...somehow...it is going to be a very different place to the one Salvor left behind. They seem to be lacking a direction. Gaal's been reactive most of the time. Salvor was acting but she got where she was headed. At least Hugo got the Invictus in the divorce. Poor guy. Ugh, my possessed iPad won’t let me format the post as I usually do… Day Cleon; I’m glad they took that route as well. The reveal about having been altered for some time is cool. Hari said abandoning the dynastic cloning might prolong the Empire, but Dusk asserted that if the Galactic Council found out there’d be hell to pay, so he’s probably damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t.
Robot Lady; good catch, I didn’t even think of making that kind of connection with her statement about reality. You think she might be partitioning off her awareness? In one ‘reality’ she serves the Cleons as always, and in the other, she is working to end the cloning, but the first partition isn’t aware of the second…
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Post by dazk on Nov 22, 2021 9:21:16 GMT
Well, after seeing Ep10 now, I can safely say that they fully left the books behind now and are 100% doing their own thing. This might be a good thing for season 2. When it was still kinda half following the book, I got mad about some character changes, now it really just is a completely different story, where some names and some backstory are the same. So I am about half way book 2, having painfully forcing myself through book 1 it has gotten better and I will now probably finish the trilogy. From comments I have read above without reading any spoilers do people who have read the books recommend I do or don't finish then before watching the show which will mean yet another subscription but maybe i can watch it all in the free trial period. And do you recommend the show regardless? Well, I think it is a very very good scifi series in its own right. It is, however, not a very good adaptation of the books. Maybe it is actually more enjoyable to watch if you haven't read the books and therefore don't have to think about how much they mess with the source material in places. It's too late for you now though, since season 1 only covers the events of about the first third of the first book. So everything that happens in the series, you will already be way beyond int he books anyway. I'd say definitely give it a watch but prepare to see something very different from the books here. It really is only "inspired bt" rather then "adapted from" in this case. Thank you. Cheers
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Post by rewindbutton on Nov 23, 2021 9:37:45 GMT
I can safely say that they fully left the books behind now Yup, that they did. This might be a good thing for season 2 Indeed it might. I went through this process: prior: 100% excited, they are finally filming it! after episodes 1&2: 90%, okay, not exctly what I was expecting, but they may salvage it. halfway through: 50%, nah, this is rubbish, there's nothing to salvage anymore. after: well, there may be something to this after all I think it is a very very good scifi series in its own right. My conclusion as well. They may have butchered the books and the actual idea behind the Foundation, but what remains is still pretty good sci-fi. Ironically I liked how they handled the Empire, something that wasn't in the books in the first place. And Lee Pace's performance was excellent; he started as Thranduil, but changed towards the end, I liked it a lot. Spoilers for those who have read the books: I found it odd, that they didn't flesh out Demerzel more, once her identity was revealed. And what do you think, will there be more robots? Or was there already?
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Post by rewindbutton on Nov 23, 2021 9:51:45 GMT
More s1 spoilers below (snip] I definitely got a terminator vibe too. Her madness makes me wonder. She doesn't seem like a grand evil architect so much as a slave under duress. But, as she put, "it's confusing not to commit to one reality." So, you're committing to more than one reality?
Answer:
In the books she is actually committed to two realities. And Asimov really depicted the robots as terminatoresque; nearly indestructible and with terrible powers.
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Post by AnDromedary on Dec 3, 2021 18:32:57 GMT
I can safely say that they fully left the books behind now Yup, that they did. This might be a good thing for season 2 Indeed it might. I went through this process: prior: 100% excited, they are finally filming it! after episodes 1&2: 90%, okay, not exctly what I was expecting, but they may salvage it. halfway through: 50%, nah, this is rubbish, there's nothing to salvage anymore. after: well, there may be something to this after all I think it is a very very good scifi series in its own right. My conclusion as well. They may have butchered the books and the actual idea behind the Foundation, but what remains is still pretty good sci-fi. Ironically I liked how they handled the Empire, something that wasn't in the books in the first place. And Lee Pace's performance was excellent; he started as Thranduil, but changed towards the end, I liked it a lot. Spoilers for those who have read the books: I found it odd, that they didn't flesh out Demerzel more, once her identity was revealed. And what do you think, will there be more robots? Or was there already? Pretty much this all the way.
I think for me, the reason I liked the empire storyline so much was because it stood on its own feet from the beginning. I wonder if I'd have liked the Terminus storyline better if they had just done the exact same show but with a different title and different character and location names so I don't constantly compare to the books.
Regarding the spoiler, I can't say because I read only the Foundation books by Asimov but never read his Robot series. Not having any context outside of what the show itself tells us, I do like the uniqueness of her character so far though.
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