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dragontartare
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Post by dragontartare on May 9, 2021 3:02:14 GMT
I have gotten my almost 70-year-old mother into PC gaming She's been using my old laptop, an MSI GhostPro GS70 ( specs here). She's fine with the performance of it, but it runs very hot on some of the games she wants to play, and it's six years old already. I've already opened it up multiple times to clean out any dust, we got a powerful cooling mat for it (which does help), and she only uses it on the table (never a soft surface). Still, with some of her games, the CPU and GPU are both running in the 80s, so she's afraid to play too often because she doesn't want to damage the computer before she can get a replacement. We really wanted to build her very own PC this summer, but with GPU prices starting at insane and rising to diabolical, that's looking like a fantasy. I had been thinking of a Ryzen 5 3600 paired with something like a 1660 super, which currently goes for $600 or so last I checked. That's just...a hard no. So we are looking at prebuilts. She likes the price of the NZXT "Starter" here. I offered to kick in the extra money for the "Starter +", but I think the price is $100 more than it was last week, so I'm worried that we're going to get priced out of prebuilts too by the time July arrives. She's fine with 1080p at medium settings. She's playing: - The Witcher 3
- AC Origins Discovery Tour (not the game itself, but the system requirements seem to be similar)
- AC Odyssey Discovery Tour
- some older games that are less demanding on resources
- will get the AC Valhalla Discovery Tour if it's ever released...saw me playing the game and loved it
She has also shown interest in branching out once she is more comfortable with gaming in general, so I want her to have a system with room to grow. (Though, sadly, she has shown no interest in BioWare titles, nor in the esteemed Garrus Vakarian. Boo.) Any suggestions of what to look for, or where to find it without having to mortgage her house?
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seven
N6
All the things.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by seven on May 9, 2021 12:25:24 GMT
You're my new hero Dragontartare
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 16:51:54 GMT
This is really cool How about a Ryzen APU? It will play almost anything that isn't Cyberpunk at 1080p with decent settings, and down the road if she feels a desire for more GPU oomph, perhaps the artificial wafer shortage will be "fixed" by then and y'all can get her an upgrade. Just a thought, as you can find them in stock for MSRP. May also be worth waiting for next gen APU, supposedly much closer to PS5 graphical performance. Check out this video for 3400g ACO performance - Edit - eesh, glad I posted the video, but I should have watched it first! This demonstrates to me that for her, this is not an acceptable answer I will leave it, since it is an interesting piece of kit, but 22fps during combat on low settings is just not good enough IMO. Edit2: dragontartare, please look at this - 19 in stock, 1660 super, 999 Edit3: not available online. Not sure where in the world you are, but if there is a MC near you this is an idea. Otherwise there are members here near this store that may be able to help you; it would take some arrangement but it is an option
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dragontartare
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Aug 14, 2016 19:06:09 GMT
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Post by dragontartare on May 9, 2021 19:06:47 GMT
This is really cool How about a Ryzen APU? It will play almost anything that isn't Cyberpunk at 1080p with decent settings, and down the road if she feels a desire for more GPU oomph, perhaps the artificial wafer shortage will be "fixed" by then and y'all can get her an upgrade. Just a thought, as you can find them in stock for MSRP. May also be worth waiting for next gen APU, supposedly much closer to PS5 graphical performance. Check out this video for 3400g ACO performance - Edit - eesh, glad I posted the video, but I should have watched it first! This demonstrates to me that for her, this is not an acceptable answer I will leave it, since it is an interesting piece of kit, but 22fps during combat on low settings is just not good enough IMO. Edit2: dragontartare, please look at this - 19 in stock, 1660 super, 999 Edit3: not available online. Not sure where in the world you are, but if there is a MC near you this is an idea. Otherwise there are members here near this store that may be able to help you; it would take some arrangement but it is an option Thank you for the amazing suggestion! We have a MC three or so hours away, so we'll need to find a day when I'm off work to drive up there. I will keep an eye on the stock in the mean time.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
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NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 9, 2021 20:26:16 GMT
This is really cool How about a Ryzen APU? It will play almost anything that isn't Cyberpunk at 1080p with decent settings, and down the road if she feels a desire for more GPU oomph, perhaps the artificial wafer shortage will be "fixed" by then and y'all can get her an upgrade. Just a thought, as you can find them in stock for MSRP. May also be worth waiting for next gen APU, supposedly much closer to PS5 graphical performance. Check out this video for 3400g ACO performance - Edit - eesh, glad I posted the video, but I should have watched it first! This demonstrates to me that for her, this is not an acceptable answer I will leave it, since it is an interesting piece of kit, but 22fps during combat on low settings is just not good enough IMO. Edit2: dragontartare , please look at this - 19 in stock, 1660 super, 999 Edit3: not available online. Not sure where in the world you are, but if there is a MC near you this is an idea. Otherwise there are members here near this store that may be able to help you; it would take some arrangement but it is an option Thank you for the amazing suggestion! We have a MC three or so hours away, so we'll need to find a day when I'm off work to drive up there. I will keep an eye on the stock in the mean time. You can actually improve performance in APU's. Just max the motherboards ram out. If you have four RAM slots go for four 32GB sticks.
APU's will use half the system's RAM slots as video RAM.
From what I can see from that thumbnail of the video that system must have 16GB of memory.
Since you can see in the video that the APU has 8 GB of memory. That is the real bad thing about APU's stealing half the systems memory.
EDIT: Yep that system does indeed have 16 GB of memory (2x8) RAM layout.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 9, 2021 20:51:26 GMT
Case-in-point: This is the only person I can find that actually used 32GB total ram for his run. And look at the numbers... its better:
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on May 10, 2021 19:41:17 GMT
THat's awesome, my 68 year old mother....HATES HATES HATES Computers with a passion
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 10, 2021 19:56:02 GMT
THat's awesome, my 68 year old mother....HATES HATES HATES Computers with a passion There is a computer for us all. If current generational computers are to troublesome for her... Get her an abacus.
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So far 2024 is the same as the previous three years...
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on May 10, 2021 20:02:12 GMT
THat's awesome, my 68 year old mother....HATES HATES HATES Computers with a passion There is a computer for us all. If current generational computers are to troublesome for her... Get her an abacus.
Technology is the Devil's work . (Also) "PCs are great. Until they're not. And more often they're not. So I would much rather live my life without them as much as humanly possible." End Quote.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 10, 2021 23:33:20 GMT
There is a computer for us all. If current generational computers are to troublesome for her... Get her an abacus.
Technology is the Devil's work . (Also) "PCs are great. Until they're not. And more often they're not. So I would much rather live my life without them as much as humanly possible." End Quote. Same is true with cars, work and life.
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Post by rewindbutton on May 11, 2021 5:59:06 GMT
Technology is the Devil's work . (Also) "PCs are great. Until they're not. And more often they're not. So I would much rather live my life without them as much as humanly possible." End Quote. Well computers are full of daemons, so she's not wrong.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 11, 2021 7:51:39 GMT
Technology is the Devil's work . (Also) "PCs are great. Until they're not. And more often they're not. So I would much rather live my life without them as much as humanly possible." End Quote. Well computers are full of daemons, so she's not wrong. Not this computer. I will never install this crap again.
I will use Magic ISO if I need to do anything like this.
Though like Alcohol 120% and DAEMON Tools before it Magic ISO is a redundant technology these days.
Due to Microsoft finally putting mounting functionality through the windows explorer.
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Post by rewindbutton on May 11, 2021 11:25:56 GMT
Not this computer. I will never install this crap again.
I will use Magic ISO if I need to do anything like this.
Though like Alcohol 120% and DAEMON Tools before it Magic ISO is a redundant technology these days.
Due to Microsoft finally putting mounting functionality through the windows explorer.
I was thinking about a process, actually.
But you're not wrong about Daemon Tools, that stuff is pretty arcane at this point.
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Post by bmwcrazy on May 11, 2021 23:17:50 GMT
You can actually improve performance in APU's. Just max the motherboards ram out. If you have four RAM slots go for four 32GB sticks.
Haha, I hope that's a typo. Don't get four 32GB sticks of RAM because that's 128GB. Four 32GB sticks of DDR4 3200 would cost you about $700. That definitely wouldn't fit in that $1000 budget and I'm pretty sure the grandma doesn't need 128GB of RAM. So we are looking at prebuilts. She likes the price of the NZXT "Starter" here. I offered to kick in the extra money for the "Starter +", but I think the price is $100 more than it was last week, so I'm worried that we're going to get priced out of prebuilts too by the time July arrives. But yeah if you want an actual video card, I would actually recommend getting a pre-built PC like that NZXT over building one yourself at this point. It's just not worth the frustration dealing with short supplies, high demand, and scalpers. Right now, OEMs and system integrators have waiting lists for some of their systems. So you might have to wait a couple weeks or even months before you get your PC. Just contact them about the shipping date before you place your order. The main thing that I don't like about these budget pre-built PCs is that they all use PSU (power supply units) with fairly low wattage ratings. That means if you want to upgrade the video card in the future, you might need to change out the PSU as well and that's a rather tedious job in my opinion. Also OEMs like Dell/Alienware tend use proprietary power plugs for their motherboards. That makes upgrading the PSU nearly impossible for most people and it really limits your upgrade path in the futre. The good thing is that system integrators like NZXT all use standard ATX motherboards with standard ATX power plugs so you can just use any standard ATX PSU. That NZXT Starter PC you posted comes with two 8GB DDR4 2666 sticks of RAM and that should be plenty for now. A good system integrator or OEM should always give you RAM in pairs and set them up to run in dual-channel mode. So always check to see if the PC is shipped with two sticks or four sticks of RAM and then use CPU-Z to see if they're in dual-channel mode. Especially for Ryzen systems, it should be a crime to not use dual-channel mode on any Ryzen system. (Some high-end systems support triple or quad-channel memory, but that's kind of irrelevant to what you're trying to do.) So just keep these things in mind when you shop for a pre-built.
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16,408
dragontartare
Add a cookie for just $1.99 (plus tax)!
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Aug 14, 2016 19:06:09 GMT
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dragontartare on May 11, 2021 23:59:41 GMT
I'm pretty sure the grandma doesn't need 128GB of RAM. She's not a grandma, unless you want to count my cats as her grandkids (But we don't, because they're cats.) But I agree, she doesn't need 128GB of RAM. I had read that comment as 32GB total. Also OEMs like Dell/Alienware tend use proprietary power plugs for their motherboards. I had planned on avoiding the likes of Dell, HP, etc because I've seen the videos that tech YouTubers have made reviewing those gaming PCs, and they don't seem to be worth it for anyone who might want to upgrade later. I didn't know about (or maybe had forgotten about) the proprietary plugs used by OEMs, though. That's yet another reason to avoid them. I don't know which other system integrator other than NZXT has entry level gaming PCs, although she likes the one from NZXT. Case-in-point: This is the only person I can find that actually used 32GB total ram for his run. And look at the numbers... its better: If we get priced out of even pre-builts, this might be an option. I'm trying to convince her not to wait too long to make her purchase, so that we won't run into that.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
0
5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 12, 2021 5:08:02 GMT
Haha, I hope that's a typo. Don't get four 32GB sticks of RAM because that's 128GB. Four 32GB sticks of DDR4 3200 would cost you about $700. That definitely wouldn't fit in that $1000 budget and I'm pretty sure the grandma doesn't need 128GB of RAM. No.
Not a typo. Though I see your the type that prefers an all at once scenario. This doesn't need to be all at once. Though I make the condition that if your building an APU system then go for a motherboard with four slots:
Start with one stick: 32 GB -bare minimum I would allow for an APU system. Since an APU will take roughly half the available memory as graphics memory. So system memory is at 16GB now. Also OEMs like Dell/Alienware tend use proprietary power plugs for their motherboards. I had planned on avoiding the likes of Dell, HP, etc because I've seen the videos that tech YouTubers have made reviewing those gaming PCs, and they don't seem to be worth it for anyone who might want to upgrade later. I didn't know about (or maybe had forgotten about) the proprietary plugs used by OEMs, though. That's yet another reason to avoid them. I don't know which other system integrator other than NZXT has entry level gaming PCs, although she likes the one from NZXT. Yes this topic has derailed quite a bit about APU's and what not. Though I don't actually condone APU's -they are good for countries where other CPU's and GPU's can't be found. Also while OEM's and such do build pre-built systems there is an option that I have not seen offered here yet.... GET A MBOX:
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Post by bmwcrazy on May 12, 2021 8:36:16 GMT
Start with one stick: 32 GB -bare minimum I would allow for an APU system. Since an APU will take roughly half the available memory as graphics memory. So system memory is at 16GB now. That's a rather odd recommendation. In my opinion, if you really have to game with the built-in GPU on your APU, you should start with two sticks of RAM at the bare minimum like two 16GB sticks instead of a single 32GB stick. That way you can at least set up the RAM to run in dual-channel mode. Having double the memory bandwidth would greatly improve the gaming performance of the APU. For example, with the Ryzen 3 3200G APU, you can basically double the performance if you use dual-channel versus single-channel.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
0
5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
5,220
November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 13, 2021 3:13:11 GMT
Start with one stick: 32 GB -bare minimum I would allow for an APU system. Since an APU will take roughly half the available memory as graphics memory. So system memory is at 16GB now. That's a rather odd recommendation. In my opinion, if you really have to game with the built-in GPU on your APU, you should start with two sticks of RAM at the bare minimum like two 16GB sticks instead of a single 32GB stick. That way you can at least set up the RAM to run in dual-channel mode. Having double the memory bandwidth would greatly improve the gaming performance of the APU. For example, with the Ryzen 3 3200G APU, you can basically double the performance if you use dual-channel versus single-channel. Again your not thinking long term here. In my opinion a single 32 GB stick is far faster and better than 2x8GB or 2x16GB sticks of equal speed... However due to 32GB sticks expensive nature getting one each month is far less expensive in the long run.
So after two months you would have 2x32GB for 64GB - definitely a must for any APU system that is going to long term game.
For one thing is for sure: The more memory the iGPU and CPU have the faster they perform. Not to mention that the more memory a system has the more memory the iGPU and CPU will use.
So that means if you get 16GBx2 and end up with a maximum of 32GB for the WHOLE system. Remembering that the APU consists of both a iGPU and a CPU and that they both share the RAM.
Also the fact that so far EVERY ryzen iGPU that I have seen always uses around 30% +\- 20% of the RAM. So if your going to game and had 2x8GB or 16GB total system RAM... You may actually be gaming with only 8 GB for the CPU while the iGPU steals your other 8GB as its memory. This may not be an issue now but in the future it will become one -future-proof your build.
I would say different if using a dedicated GPU like the Geforce 1030 GT or RX 560. Most people here that would be using an APU... Will not spend hundreds on a motherboard or any part for that matter.
And since all sub-par $100 boards -at least Ryzen side will not have more than 2 RAM slots... The amount of RAM slots configurations will be limited for the user. So go with 32GB stick -one a month till max the Ram slots: The best memory 32GB for under $200 I have found. All the reviews I have seen seem to indicate this memory line is an overclocking master... So the 3000 mHZ default speed doesn't really matter. Now to your video link... It proves two things: 1. Unless the game has been properly optimized for dual-channel-RANK memory configurations the temperature on that APU is actually hotter. 2. Dual-RANK configuration utilization doesn't look stable on the 3200G.
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Post by bmwcrazy on May 13, 2021 6:31:44 GMT
1. Unless the game has been properly optimized for dual- channel-RANK memory configurations the temperature on that APU is actually hotter 2. Dual-RANK configuration utilization doesn't look stable on the 3200G. That Gamers Nexus video was made in 2014. It is waaaay too old to be applied to what we are talking about here. Instead, you should try to find articles and videos about performance difference between single and dual-channel memory a modern CPU or APU. You can't deny the fact that using dual-channel memory mode would immensely benefit the graphics performance of an APU. Even if you don't plan on using the iGPU, you should ALWAYS use dual-channel mode for optimal performance of your CPU. This is even more true for modern Zen 2 and Zen 3 Ryzen CPUs. Obviously we have different ways of doing things. When it comes to planning a PC build with a budget, I always try to spend money on things that are more relevant to what I want to do with my PC. In my opinion, it is just silly to spend $300-$400 on 64GB of RAM. Even when you consider the long term, it is very unlikely that a 70 year old grandma mother will ever need 64GB of RAM. Instead, dragontartare should be focus on getting a nice pre-built system with a decent graphics card for the mother and forget about using an APU. For example, the $999 NZXT pre-built that dragontartare has linked comes with a GTX 1650. A GTX 1650 is already three to four times faster than Ryzen 3200G's Vega 8 iGPU. If they opt for the $1299 NZXT model with a GTX 1660 Super, it is five to six times faster. By the way, Dual-rank is actually completely different than dual-channel. You shouldn't confuse these two. The video that I showed you was about the benefits of dual-channel memory on an APU. Not dual-rank, because that's actually a separate topic that I didn't want to bring up. To dig deep into it, I'd end up typing an essay describing the difference between single, dual, and quad-rank memory module. If you want to learn more about it, Linus also has a video about it that you can check it out if you feel like killing time. (Long story short: Yes, you should use dual-rank memory modules on your Ryzen system. They actually give you more performance.)
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 14:57:17 GMT
I apologize if the discussion of APU is a digression, but I don't see it as one. Our "client" in this case is not, and is never going to be, a super saavy PC user. Getting inside the hardware and tinkering - yeah, call dragontartare or the grandcats for that. APU, is like a console but better IMO because down the road you can install a dedicated GPU and have plenty of gaming oomph still with the Ryzen core. Is it better for me? Maybe for the right build... It is not going to replace my new main rig, since that's a 5600x with 32gb and a 3070 rocking. But, I want to replace my Nvidia Shield, and I want a low power option that performs at least as well and preferably much better. It also has to be small.... no matter how tiny a mini-itx case you find, a standard dedicated GPU needs space, and you will have a box. APU you can do much smaller. So, it is absolutely a viable option, and the increased ram video was quite informative for me and I really appreciate it. That said, I am going to revise my recommendation: 1) MicroCenter prebuilt still a good option. 2) Best APU you can find, build with 2x16gb ram so you can take advantage of dual channel and not price yourself out of range. 3) Gaming NUC - haven't looked at these in a while, wad waiting for AMD to make their version. Very small, and I think a good candidate for external GPU down the line. ... I wish this were a simpler time for this. So much profiteering going on in this sector - artifical scarcity (the scarcity is real, the reason for it is not) - that it is impossible to pay a fair price for almost anything in the hobby. Hopefully any food for thought is good food, even if mine finished with a sour note
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 13, 2021 16:27:29 GMT
1. Unless the game has been properly optimized for dual- channel-RANK memory configurations the temperature on that APU is actually hotter 2. Dual-RANK configuration utilization doesn't look stable on the 3200G. That Gamers Nexus video was made in 2014. It is waaaay too old to be applied to what we are talking about here. Instead, you should try to find articles and videos about performance difference between single and dual-channel memory a modern CPU or APU. You can't deny the fact that using dual-channel memory mode would immensely benefit the graphics performance of an APU. Even if you don't plan on using the iGPU, you should ALWAYS use dual-channel mode for optimal performance of your CPU. This is even more true for modern Zen 2 and Zen 3 Ryzen CPUs. Obviously we have different ways of doing things. When it comes to planning a PC build with a budget, I always try to spend money on things that are more relevant to what I want to do with my PC. In my opinion, it is just silly to spend $300-$400 on 64GB of RAM. Even when you consider the long term, it is very unlikely that a 70 year old grandma mother will ever need 64GB of RAM. Instead, dragontartare should be focus on getting a nice pre-built system with a decent graphics card for the mother and forget about using an APU. For example, the $999 NZXT pre-built that dragontartare has linked comes with a GTX 1650. A GTX 1650 is already three to four times faster than Ryzen 3200G's Vega 8 iGPU. If they opt for the $1299 NZXT model with a GTX 1660 Super, it is five to six times faster.
By the way, Dual-rank is actually completely different than dual-channel. You shouldn't confuse these two. The video that I showed you was about the benefits of dual-channel memory on an APU. Not dual-rank, because that's actually a separate topic that I didn't want to bring up. To dig deep into it, I'd end up typing an essay describing the difference between single, dual, and quad-rank memory module. If you want to learn more about it, Linus also has a video about it that you can check it out if you feel like killing time. (Long story short: Yes, you should use dual-rank memory modules on your Ryzen system. They actually give you more performance.) Strange you post that video... Two ram chips set in their alternating RAM slots will give boost of dual rank will give a boost in performance.
Doesn't everyone already know that? It is obvious that a dual rank SINGLE chip will give the same performance as a single rank dual ram chip configuration. THIS is what I am talking about... maybe I just don't communicate it well... heh its just me.
The video you posted about the performance of dual versus single channel ram are using SINGLE RANK ram NOT dual or quad RANK ram.
So that is what I was referring to: If your going to be using single RANK then going to have to be 32GB minimum. If your going to have dual or quad RANK memory then 16GB is fine. Since in my opinion dual or quad RANK memory is like virtually doubling the memory.
So 16GB Dual RANK is equal to 32GB Single RANK... The latter of which isn't possible since ALL 32GB ram sticks are always dual rank -as far as I know.
On this I agree APU systems are dwarfed by actual GPU's as I did already say. And despite what others may say I would not advise getting pre-built but do it yourself. Or at least have a trusted friend or family member build it... unless its Micro Center.
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 13, 2021 16:37:36 GMT
I apologize if the discussion of APU is a digression, but I don't see it as one. Our "client" in this case is not, and is never going to be, a super saavy PC user. Getting inside the hardware and tinkering - yeah, call dragontartare or the grandcats for that. APU, is like a console but better IMO because down the road you can install a dedicated GPU and have plenty of gaming oomph still with the Ryzen core. Is it better for me? Maybe for the right build... It is not going to replace my new main rig, since that's a 5600x with 32gb and a 3070 rocking. But, I want to replace my Nvidia Shield, and I want a low power option that performs at least as well and preferably much better. It also has to be small.... no matter how tiny a mini-itx case you find, a standard dedicated GPU needs space, and you will have a box. APU you can do much smaller. So, it is absolutely a viable option, and the increased ram video was quite informative for me and I really appreciate it. That said, I am going to revise my recommendation: 1) MicroCenter prebuilt still a good option. 2) Best APU you can find, build with 2x16gb ram so you can take advantage of dual channel and not price yourself out of range. 3) Gaming NUC - haven't looked at these in a while, wad waiting for AMD to make their version. Very small, and I think a good candidate for external GPU down the line. ... I wish this were a simpler time for this. So much profiteering going on in this sector - artifical scarcity (the scarcity is real, the reason for it is not) - that it is impossible to pay a fair price for almost anything in the hobby. Hopefully any food for thought is good food, even if mine finished with a sour note It was a digression in my opinion. Scalpers going to scalp -like to scalp them myself.
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Post by dragontartare on May 13, 2021 17:17:32 GMT
And despite what others may say I would not advise getting pre-built but do it yourself. Or at least have a trusted friend or family member build it... unless its Micro Center. Have you seen GPU prices? We would end up spending most of her budget on the GPU alone. We wanted to build her computer together (I built mine last summer), but it's simply not in her budget anymore. Plus, every prediction I've seen says prices won't go back to normal until 2022 or 2023.
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Post by bmwcrazy on May 13, 2021 17:21:09 GMT
Strange you post that video... Two ram chips set in their alternating RAM slots will give boost of dual rank will give a boost in performance.
Doesn't everyone already know that? It is obvious that a dual rank SINGLE chip will give the same performance as a single rank dual ram chip configuration. THIS is what I am talking about... maybe I just don't communicate it well... heh its just me. The video you posted about the performance of dual versus single channel ram are using SINGLE RANK ram NOT dual or quad RANK ram. It doesn't matter if the memory modules are single or dual-rank though. Let me put it this way, two single rank modules on dual-channel memory mode is significantly faster than a dual-rank memory on single-channel memory mode. Dual-channel mode will always guarantee you a better performance because it essentially doubles your memory bandwidth (and that's why you get nearly double the performance from an iGPU). On the other hand, the benefit from using dual-rank modules is actually way smaller. You can see a small performance boost in some applications and you don't at all in others. So that is what I was referring to: If your going to be using single RANK then going to have to be 32GB minimum. If your going to have dual or quad RANK memory then 16GB is fine. Since in my opinion dual or quad RANK memory is like virtually doubling the memory.
So 16GB Dual RANK is equal to 32GB Single RANK...
Ironic since the RAM I linked is supposed to be dual RANK and not single RANK. There is no irony in that, because I'm pretty sure all 32GB memory modules are dual-rank. In fact, a lot of 16GB memory modules are dual-rank as well. It's just a bit tricky trying to find out, because memory manufacturers usually don't specify or advertise that a memory module is dual-rank. It is something to keep in mind when you shop for RAM, but not worth the headache in my opinion. So forget about single-rank vs dual-rank. Just get two RAM sticks, run them in dual-channel mode, and you're good to go.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 17:38:20 GMT
Just sayin'....
Dual rank and dual channel are not even close to the same thing, and as someone who comes off as very knowledgeable on the subject, I am going to be charitable and say you do know this.
Don't muck up the terms, what you are saying is not correct.
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