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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 2:21:00 GMT
If I bring up Anders using his healing abilities to help refugees and impoverished folks in Darktown, why do you assume I have a problem with him? If Gaider already said there isn't an atheist option in Dragon Age II, I don't see why this is even being debated. It's not like it's difficult to find the threads where Xil and I were among the folks who criticized the decision to prohibit the return of an atheist option when Gaider originally said he wasn't going to allow it, and then relented because a sufficient amount of us made our voices heard. Also, criticizing the Chantry isn't the same as being atheist. As for playing a religious Andrastian, some of us simply don't want to do that. I'm one of them. 1. Ferelden refugees (Act1), you remember? And Varric/(perhaps)Aveline in Act2, Hawke in Act3. (I wrote...) Anders was healing people beyond Act I. And I still don't see why you assumed I had a problem with Anders. 2. I not surprised, that Gaider said, there isn't atheist option. It would be not so logical in such a world... At least have only a small probability – as I see: There are exist any scientifical explanation to formation of Thedas, instead of Maker/Creators?
So: the ateism, according our wording, I think not exist in Thedas. Greater the likelihood that everyone believes in some sort of metaphysical creative power. I'm sure that there are skeptics, but not in the modern sense atheists. (Of course, probably it's just me) If you don't believe in gods or a higher power (something Morrigan even says to Leliana, so it's not as though the concept doesn't exist), then atheism clearly exists in Thedas. The Warden could even be an atheist. My Surana Warden made it clear that he didn't believe in the Maker at Ostagar, expressed to Leliana that he didn't believe that Andraste was divine, and explicitly told Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. As per the exchange between Leliana and Morrigan: Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist. Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 2:46:01 GMT
1. Ferelden refugees (Act1), you remember? And Varric/(perhaps)Aveline in Act2, Hawke in Act3. (I wrote...) Anders was healing people beyond Act I. And I still don't see why you assumed I had a problem with Anders. 2. I not surprised, that Gaider said, there isn't atheist option. It would be not so logical in such a world... At least have only a small probability – as I see: There are exist any scientifical explanation to formation of Thedas, instead of Maker/Creators?
So: the ateism, according our wording, I think not exist in Thedas. Greater the likelihood that everyone believes in some sort of metaphysical creative power. I'm sure that there are skeptics, but not in the modern sense atheists. (Of course, probably it's just me) If you don't believe in gods or a higher power (something Morrigan even says to Leliana, so it's not as though the concept doesn't exist), then atheism clearly exists in Thedas. The Warden could even be an atheist. My Surana Warden made it clear that he didn't believe in the Maker at Ostagar, expressed to Leliana that he didn't believe that Andraste was divine, and explicitly told Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. As per the exchange between Leliana and Morrigan: Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist. Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure. Who speak about a father-figure? Atheism not about denial of father-figure (The "does not presuppose" =/= "doesn't happened"!). Of course, if you speak about ateism is denial of some father-figure, you're right, there are atheists in DA. Justice said only, that he dont know more about the Maker as the mortals. If i remember correctly. Okay, suppose, that Warden and Inquisitor is atheist. What happen then? Nothing. What is changing? Nothing important. The world will saved, the Blight over. Atheist Warden can have Old God son, just as Andrastian/Elven/Dwarf warden, who believe his/her God(s), but don't want to die, loves Morrigan, trust in Morrigan etc. And could refuse the Dark Ritual, because of his/her moral barriers, so there are no significant different. Etc. Probably with Leliana the Warden will not befriend so easily, if mocks her faith. Okay, this is differ. Significant? I don't think. What happen, if Inquisitor is atheist? Nothing. What changes? Nothing important. The Chantry still rebuilt, because the Inquisitor not so important person, that his/her religion matter. What could happen, if Hawke atheist? YES! Nothing (Probably Sebastian disapproving frowns). What is changing? NOTHING! So: why problem, that Hawke is Andrastian?
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 3:18:19 GMT
Anders was healing people beyond Act I. And I still don't see why you assumed I had a problem with Anders. If you don't believe in gods or a higher power (something Morrigan even says to Leliana, so it's not as though the concept doesn't exist), then atheism clearly exists in Thedas. The Warden could even be an atheist. My Surana Warden made it clear that he didn't believe in the Maker at Ostagar, expressed to Leliana that he didn't believe that Andraste was divine, and explicitly told Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. As per the exchange between Leliana and Morrigan: Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist. Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure. Who speak about a father-figure? Atheism not about denial of father-figure. Of course, if you speak about ateism is denial of some father-figure, you're right, there are atheists in DA. Justice said only, that he dont know more about the Maker as the mortals. If i remember correctly. Atheism is about not believing in a god, gods, or a higher power. So I don't see why there would be any debate that there are atheists in Thedas. Okay, suppose, that Warden and Inquisitor is atheist. What happen then? Nothing. What is changing? Nothing important. Atheism came up in addressing that Hawke is somewhat predefined by the developers. It didn't have anything to do with Hawke being reactive instead of proactive.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 30, 2017 3:29:07 GMT
During a Blight, a warden have power. This the treaties were his/her power. Where's Hawke's treaty, that s/he entitled to the Viscount's throne? He got helps from the nobles after third year... I think this is a quite believable. Why? Because people needed time, to realize Meredith's danger. The nobles and citizens were not afraid of Templars, they are accustomed them. They needed a little time to realize: the Templars (Meredith) greater threat than the Mages. This is clear. (I know, the DA2 not a perfect story, but you think, the Warden's story more believable? Honestly... I think, that explainable with the contracts, but still...) This isn't about believability; I'm addressing the distinction between a proactive protagonist and a reactive protagonist. And, for example, if Hawke was trying to do something about Meredith's dictatorship during the three year period between Acts II and III, as opposed to nothing, I'd feel very differently. Instead, Hawke only gets involved because Orsino is protesting Meredith's actions and the Knight-Commander challenges the First Enchanter in front of the people of Kirkwall. Your last post didn't actually answer my questions, but that's ok for now. I've got a new one for you: what, precisely, should Hawke have done that you would consider proactive?
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 4:58:41 GMT
lobselvith8 Listen, it`s obvious for me by now that you actively dislike playing Hawke. Your "answers" to my posts were just a deliberate ridicule for DA2 as a game and Hawke as a character. You don`t like DA2 and Hawke, I get it. So why bother filling this thread with your hatred? I expect a direct answer at this question, not an evasive action. About atheism and DA2: I`m an atheist, and have absolutely no problem to play DA2 - choosing options without mentioning the Maker is easy. You are the one who started with the atheism topic in this thread. Why does it bothers you what David Gaider said, about atheism being an option? I remember quite well the long thread about atheism and DA:O at the Bioware`s forum. It was fueled by Morrigan`s comment about the Maker, and I posted extensively on that thread, defending David Gaider`s view that DA:O wasn`t designed with a possibility of role-playing an atheist Warden, because he considered that on that social context modern atheism wasn`t a possible viewpoint for a realistic DA character. So why mention DA:O and DA:I as games with the option of an atheist protagonist, since Gaider explicitly denied this for DA:O?
You are attacking Hawke based on the available options to play her/him, considering Hawke an unrealistic, passive character, while you are considering the Warden the exact opposite. In terms of credibility, options and story, DA:O is much less realistic. For instance, every origin story ends with tragedies, and the Warden is incapable to prevent these. IN EVERY CASE. Then it`s the same with Ostagar - the Warden has no option to warn Duncan and Cailan about what will happen, even if s/he talked with Loghain in private before, and his behavior is suspicious. Then your much praised treaties proactive behavior: It`s NOT the Warden`s idea at all. It was hammered in her/his head by Flemeth with the help of Alistair. S/he only has the option to say: "what do you mean" when Alistair reacts with "Of course! The treaties!" at the Warden`s "surely there are other allies...". MEANING the warden is completely CLUELESS, not proactive. And it`s Flemeth who removed and protected the treaties in the first place, making HER proactive, and not the Warden or Alistair. By the way, at this point Alistair is ready to quit. Not quite a proactive behavior from one of the two remaining GW`s, based on your inscrutable definition of the term. Or maybe Alistair is proactive since your definition of proactive behavior seems to be: whatever the Wardens are doing in DA:O.As for the rest of the game, has a lot of completely unrealistic elements, like having a child in less than a month in the case of both Aeducan babies - if the dwarf Warden goes straight to Ostagar from Lothering. Also, the whole idea of chasing allies a full year while leaving Ferelden at the mercy of the darkspawn horde, without even mentioning the idea of sealing the Deep Road entrances all over Ferelden (their location must be known by every GW, and Duncan knew) and preventing more darkspawn emerging by surprise. Or the protection of Ferelden citizens - evacuation of villages, establishing of refugee camps in the mountains. THIS would have meant PROACTIVE behavior for me. But NONE was available for the Warden. So, my third question: Why is DA:O a game with a more realistic story, and more proactive options for the protagonist?
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 11:31:51 GMT
lobselvith8 Listen, it`s obvious for me by now that you actively dislike playing Hawke. Your "answers" to my posts were just a deliberate ridicule for DA2 as a game and Hawke as a character. You don`t like DA2 and Hawke, I get it. So why bother filling this thread with your hatred? I expect a direct answer at this question, not an evasive action. I've given direct answers; I've clarified statements when people said things that didn't make any sense, like when it was assumed I was criticizing Anders because I brought up how he was healing people in his clinic. Which still confuses me, as a matter of fact. This also came about because I voiced agreement with another poster over Hawke being a reactive character, so it's disingenuous of you to paint it as though I've been "filling this thread" with hate when I simply concurred on the matter of Hawke not being a proactive character, and then responded to people who took umbrage with that. If you don't want to discuss this further, that's fine, but don't ask me to clarify what I mean and then criticize me for participating in the thread by answering such questions. It just makes you look dishonest. You are attacking Hawke based on the available options to play her/him, considering Hawke an unrealistic, passive character, while you are considering the Warden the exact opposite. Let me correct you: I said Hawke was reactive, not proactive, that's it; that had nothing to do with either one being more realistic than the other. I also made it clear that I didn't like the approach with Hawke or his story, and I made it clear that was specifically how I felt. About atheism and DA2: I`m an atheist, and have absolutely no problem to play DA2 - choosing options without mentioning the Maker is easy. You are the one who started with the atheism topic in this thread. Why does it bothers you what David Gaider said, about atheism being an option? I remember quite well the long thread about atheism and DA:O at the Bioware`s forum. It was fueled by Morrigan`s comment about the Maker, and I posted extensively on that thread, defending David Gaider`s view that DA:O wasn`t designed with a possibility of role-playing an atheist Warden, because he considered that on that social context modern atheism wasn`t a possible viewpoint for a realistic DA character. So why mention DA:O and DA:I as games with the option of an atheist protagonist, since Gaider explicitly denied this for DA:O? Atheism was already possible with the Warden, which was what was actually brought up, so you apparently don't remember that discussion all too well. If you think atheism is a modern concept, you're mistaken about that, too. As for the rest of the game, has a lot of completely unrealistic elements, like having a child in less than a month in the case of both Aeducan babies - if the dwarf Warden goes straight to Ostagar from Lothering. Wynne tells a mage protagonist that it's been "over a year" since he left the Circle with Duncan, so it apparently hasn't been "one month" like you think if such a span of time took place for the Warden. So, my third question: Why is DA:O a game with a more realistic story, and more proactive options for the protagonist?Why are you asking me why Origins is a more realistic story? I never brought that up; I discussed Hawke being reactive. And it's kind of ludicrous that you attack me for participating in this thread, and yet you keep asking me to participate in this thread.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 11:54:18 GMT
It`s interesting that DA:O was initially planed in a similar fashion, as a tale told much later by Morrigan. Too bad Bioware changed the plan. I'm glad that was changed. I liked playing through Origins, and how the events were 'real'. There's something of an issue that arises when a narration is used to describe events and you can't tell if the protagonist and the characters in the story were really like this, or if it's simply how the narrator viewed those people. I didn't like how the narrative device was used in Dragon Age II. Too many years were also spent in-between Acts where the protagonist seemed to do nothing (which is why some folks used to joke that Hawke was in a coma during those years). To be very clear: this is your first post here, made because I liked the idea of a DA:O game with Morrigan as a storyteller. Something you hate. Because of your hatred, you have started trolling all over the place, interfering with a discussion about Hawke`s story, and NOT ABOUT DRAGON AGE ORIGINS. I don`t care about what you are thinking, like or hate. All I care is your TROLLING and BULLYING behavior. Which I don`t accept at all. So from this moment on, I WILL IGNORE ANY OF YOUR POSTS COMPLETELY. With no exception. Excuses are too late. Have a nice day, and a pleasant activity here. Bye!
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 12:01:16 GMT
I'm glad that was changed. I liked playing through Origins, and how the events were 'real'. There's something of an issue that arises when a narration is used to describe events and you can't tell if the protagonist and the characters in the story were really like this, or if it's simply how the narrator viewed those people. I didn't like how the narrative device was used in Dragon Age II. Too many years were also spent in-between Acts where the protagonist seemed to do nothing (which is why some folks used to joke that Hawke was in a coma during those years). To be very clear: this is your first post here, made because I liked the idea of a DA:O game with Morrigan as a storyteller. Something you hate. I said I wouldn't have liked the approach to be taken in Origins. That's pretty much it. And no, this isn't my first post in this section. Because of your hatred, you have started trolling all over the place, interfering with a discussion about Hawke`s story, and NOT ABOUT DRAGON AGE ORIGINS. Voicing an opinion you don't like isn't trolling. You seem to have this odd double-standard of asking me to participate in a discussion, and then attacking me for it. I don`t care about what you are thinking, like or hate. All I care is your TROLLING and BULLYING behavior. It isn't trolling to voice a point of view you don't agree with, and it isn't bullying, either. Which I don`t accept at all. So from this moment on, I WILL IGNORE ANY OF YOUR POSTS COMPLETELY. With no exception. Excuses are too late. Have a nice day, and a pleasant activity here. Bye! If you don't want to discuss the matter with me, that's fine, but don't ask me for my opinion and then attack me for it.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 13:13:34 GMT
Atheism was already possible with the Warden, which was what was actually brought up, so you apparently don't remember that discussion all too well. If you think atheism is a modern concept, you're mistaken about that, too You're right. Atheism isn't modern concept. Philosophers dealt with it. Not simple citizens, peasants, hunters. Probably Hawke's father (and mother) could be atheist, but didn't such a thing: they was Andrastian. And Hawke too. The people, who wasn't philosophers, was simple skeptical, disillusioned. I can't call this feeling "ateism". _____________ You still not answered this question: what Hawke should do?
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 13:55:44 GMT
You're right. Atheism isn't modern concept. Philosophers dealt with it. Not simple citizens, peasants, hunters. Probably Hawke's father (and mother) could be atheist, but didn't such a thing: they was Andrastian. And Hawke too. The people, who wasn't philosophers, was simple skeptical, disillusioned. I can't call this feeling "atheism". Atheism is not a new concept at all. Similar ideas are known at least since the Hellenistic golden age. The old BSN forum discussion covered quite the whole family of related concepts - skepticism, agnosticism, atheism. Gaider`s viewpoint was that such complex philosophical approach was not accessible for a person living in a middle age world (requiring knowledge of physical sciences, logic, astronomy, cosmology). He considered that Morrigan`s comment about the Maker as an absentee father figure seemed appropriate in that context. Which is ok in my opinion, since the Maker is described by the Chantry as abandoning his creation twice.
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 14:52:17 GMT
Atheism was already possible with the Warden, which was what was actually brought up, so you apparently don't remember that discussion all too well. If you think atheism is a modern concept, you're mistaken about that, too You're right. Atheism isn't modern concept. Philosophers dealt with it. Not simple citizens, peasants, hunters. Probably Hawke's father (and mother) could be atheist, but didn't such a thing: they was Andrastian. And Hawke too. The people, who wasn't philosophers, was simple skeptical, disillusioned. I can't call this feeling "ateism". _____________ The notion that atheism was only possible for a select few simply isn't the case. And it's a moot point, anyway, as the player had the option to be an atheist in Origins, and the developers have changed their mind about prohibiting the option to be atheist. The landscape isn't one that such prohibit such an option (this isn't the Mundus of the Elder Scrolls, after all). Gaider's comments about atheism didn't make much sense; his original contention that having the option to be atheist meant that people wanted to destroy all religion was just bizarre.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 31, 2017 0:40:30 GMT
Forget all this atheism talk. lobselvith8 what could Hawke have done that you would consider proactive? You have not answered this.
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Post by fenris on Jan 31, 2017 7:08:49 GMT
Also, people here seem to think that not believing in the maker = being an atheist, which is just not true. Also is has nothing to do with the thread subject
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 31, 2017 8:19:14 GMT
Also, people here seem to think that not believing in the maker = being an atheist, which is just not true. Also is has nothing to do with the thread subject I agree with both your statements. Atheism and the Maker has nothing to do with this thread. It`s just a plot from lobselvith8 to disrupt this thread. For what purpose, I don`t understand. For many DA fans, the main problem with DA2 was not about being rushed, but being different from DA:O in many aspects expected to be part of the DA universe: Thedas`s existence threatened, the protagonist eliminates the threat and saves the day. These are usual elements in heroic fantasies, but not compulsory elements for a good fantasy. The "Mistborn" trilogy from Brandon Sanderson, for instance, use the anti-hero idea. The main hero (Vin) who tries to save the world and act as the predicted Hero of Ages, but instead unleashes Ruin, an entity determined to destroy the planet. Bioware did the same with Hawke, and the experiment was not liked by many fans, who demanded the usual heroic outcome. More, Bioware dared to set up DA2 as a tale told by Varric. Both these elements (anti-hero and a tale) made many DA fans uncomfortable. DA2 is about Hawke from start to finish. It`s just that Hawke is seen with the "colored" lenses of Varric`s tale. And it`s great fun if you play along and use the "sarcastic" Hawke personality. BW could have done a much better job if DA2 would not have been rushed. For instance, more scenes like the one "I died at Chateau Haine": Or of course the Varric vs Bartrand scene:
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Post by fenris on Jan 31, 2017 8:27:30 GMT
The "Mistborn" trilogy from Brandon Sanderson has a hero (Vin) who tries to save the world and act as the predicted Hero of Ages, but instead unleashes Ruin, an entity determined to destroy the planet. I don't really mind since I already read that series, but you might want to put that in spoiler tags Also yes, Varric has some hilarious parts to his tale, and this is one of the best
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 31, 2017 11:34:37 GMT
Also, people here seem to think that not believing in the maker = being an atheist, which is just not true. If you don't believe in the Maker, and you were raised in an Andrastian culture where the only god or higher power you were taught was the Maker, I don't see the distinction. It's like disputing someone saying they don't believe in God being an atheist because they didn't also say they didn't believe in the deities of every other religion on the planet. Also is has nothing to do with the thread subject Fair enough. Also, people here seem to think that not believing in the maker = being an atheist, which is just not true. Also is has nothing to do with the thread subject I agree with both your statements. Atheism and the Maker has nothing to do with this thread. It`s just a plot from lobselvith8 to disrupt this thread. For what purpose, I don`t understand. You were one of the people who asked me to expand on certain things I said. You can't act like it's a sinister plot from me that I responded to your posts. It's hypocritical of you to ask me to answer certain things, and then attack me for it.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 31, 2017 21:02:30 GMT
Also, people here seem to think that not believing in the maker = being an atheist, which is just not true. If you don't believe in the Maker, and you were raised in an Andrastian culture where the only god or higher power you were taught was the Maker, I don't see the distinction. It's like disputing someone saying they don't believe in God being an atheist because they didn't also say they didn't believe in the deities of every other religion on the planet. Also is has nothing to do with the thread subject Fair enough. I agree with both your statements. Atheism and the Maker has nothing to do with this thread. It`s just a plot from lobselvith8 to disrupt this thread. For what purpose, I don`t understand. You were one of the people who asked me to expand on certain things I said. You can't act like it's a sinister plot from me that I responded to your posts. It's hypocritical of you to ask me to answer certain things, and then attack me for it. You are so eager to address the atheism question, yet keep ignoring mine, which is actually relevant to the main topic Do you have an answer?
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 1, 2017 1:49:12 GMT
If you don't believe in the Maker, and you were raised in an Andrastian culture where the only god or higher power you were taught was the Maker, I don't see the distinction. It's like disputing someone saying they don't believe in God being an atheist because they didn't also say they didn't believe in the deities of every other religion on the planet. Fair enough. You were one of the people who asked me to expand on certain things I said. You can't act like it's a sinister plot from me that I responded to your posts. It's hypocritical of you to ask me to answer certain things, and then attack me for it. You are so eager to address the atheism question, yet keep ignoring mine, which is actually relevant to the main topic Do you have an answer? That's because I'm accused of having a sinister plot to disrupt the thread. Given that Ray Muzyka openly admitted that Dragon Age 2 was "one of the most polarizing launches we've had, frankly", I'm a bit surprised that some people are taking my dissatisfaction so personally. As to your query, I discussed that in the wake of Dragon Age II years ago. As a matter of fact, a few folks did. KnightofPhoenix made an entire thread about it (I was trying to find it when you initially asked), posing alternatives where Meredith's hand is stayed because Hawke involves the Ferelden refugee populace (who were supposed to have substantial numbers from what's said in Witch Hunt and Dragon Age II) against the Qunari, TheEtherealWriterRedux brought up the elves participating if Hawke killed the serial killer who was preying on the children, and I think I had suggested making the mage and templar choices much more drastic so that you weren't simply 'going into a coma' between Acts (as some used to joke), as in Hawke taking charge with the mage rebellion if the player was pro-mage (I know KoP criticized Hawke's dialogue with Varric where you can tell him you want political power, and then do nothing about it). I think KoP was the one who suggested that Thrask's mage-templar group actually held the possibility for some dramatic change within the narrative because of how unprecedented it was, had they not killed Thrask in a completely asinine manner while Hawke just stood by and watched. Don't take my disagreement to heart. I'm friends with Xil, and I know she enjoys Dragon Age II. We also agree and disagree on an assortment of topics, as you can tell if you've seen one of the recent threads in the Inquisition section. Different strokes for different folks.
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Post by dragontartare on Feb 1, 2017 2:05:01 GMT
You are so eager to address the atheism question, yet keep ignoring mine, which is actually relevant to the main topic Do you have an answer? That's because I'm accused of having a sinister plot to disrupt the thread. Given that Ray Muzyka openly admitted that Dragon Age 2 was "one of the most polarizing launches we've had, frankly", I'm a bit surprised that some people are taking my dissatisfaction so personally. As to your query, I discussed that in the wake of Dragon Age II years ago. As a matter of fact, a few folks did. KnightofPhoenix made an entire thread about it (I was trying to find it when you initially asked), posing alternatives where Meredith's hand is stayed because Hawke involves the Ferelden refugee populace (who were supposed to have substantial numbers from what's said in Witch Hunt and Dragon Age II) against the Qunari, TheEtherealWriterRedux brought up the elves participating if Hawke killed the serial killer who was preying on the children, and I think I had suggested making the mage and templar choices much more drastic so that you weren't simply 'going into a coma' between Acts (as some used to joke), as in Hawke taking charge with the mage rebellion if the player was pro-mage (I know KoP criticized Hawke's dialogue with Varric where you can tell him you want political power, and then do nothing about it). I think KoP was the one who suggested that Thrask's mage-templar group actually held the possibility for some dramatic change within the narrative because of how unprecedented it was, had they not killed Thrask in a completely asinine manner while Hawke just stood by and watched. Don't take my disagreement to heart. I'm friends with Xil, and I know she enjoys Dragon Age II. We also agree and disagree on an assortment of topics, as you can tell if you've seen one of the recent threads in the Inquisition section. Different strokes for different folks. Thank you for answering. I wasn't around in the wake of DA2 years ago, as I came to these games in 2015 and wasn't even on the old BioWare boards, so this is the first I've really heard of this argument. I am aware of DA2 being rushed to production, though. I wonder whether some of the things you mention could have been planned, but were cut due to lack of time.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 1, 2017 2:31:30 GMT
You are so eager to address the atheism question, yet keep ignoring mine, which is actually relevant to the main topic Do you have an answer? That's because I'm accused of having a sinister plot to disrupt the thread. Given that Ray Muzyka openly admitted that Dragon Age 2 was "one of the most polarizing launches we've had, frankly", I'm a bit surprised that some people are taking my dissatisfaction so personally. As to your query, I discussed that in the wake of Dragon Age II years ago. As a matter of fact, a few folks did. KnightofPhoenix made an entire thread about it (I was trying to find it when you initially asked), posing alternatives where Meredith's hand is stayed because Hawke involves the Ferelden refugee populace (who were supposed to have substantial numbers from what's said in Witch Hunt and Dragon Age II) against the Qunari, TheEtherealWriterRedux brought up the elves participating if Hawke killed the serial killer who was preying on the children, and I think I had suggested making the mage and templar choices much more drastic so that you weren't simply 'going into a coma' between Acts (as some used to joke), as in Hawke taking charge with the mage rebellion if the player was pro-mage (I know KoP criticized Hawke's dialogue with Varric where you can tell him you want political power, and then do nothing about it). I think KoP was the one who suggested that Thrask's mage-templar group actually held the possibility for some dramatic change within the narrative because of how unprecedented it was, had they not killed Thrask in a completely asinine manner while Hawke just stood by and watched. Don't take my disagreement to heart. I'm friends with Xil, and I know she enjoys Dragon Age II. We also agree and disagree on an assortment of topics, as you can tell if you've seen one of the recent threads in the Inquisition section. Different strokes for different folks. Hawke's story isn't about logic. (The life not about logic...) You see, what Hawke could do, because you know what happened. (It would be nice[?] if we could always what's going to happen ...) Hawke was a relatively fresh noble, Okay, I know, his/her family is old, but s/he just arrived to Kirkwall, and regained his/her family title (s/he was noble only ~6 years ago). Gamlen's name wasn't the best reference, just as Hawke's past – refugee, smuggler/mercenary, (possible) MAGE... (or his/her sister a mage, this also was bad omen in the eyes of the people; many nobleman hid this, and was a shame), so: noble or not, Champion or not, Hawke's position was labile. The people trusted him/her, but not so much, that s/he would able to organising an armed resistance. S/He don't have enough armed power against Meredith. Peaceful solution? S/He tried, we saw... A joke. Ofc, as I see. So: s/he needed to build stronger connections. Three years is enough to help to rebuild* the city and continuing to build connections, already as Champion. But not enough to organizing an armed rebellion against the Templar Knight Commander, against the Chantry! Nevertheless, after three years Hawke gained supporters. Sadly, it was late. Templar Hawke don't need to do anything, as I already wrote. You're right, Thrask should have trust in Hawke. But this is not Hawke's fault. The dramas/operas story is often quite illogical. This game similar as a drama, a tragedy. Interestingly, I mostly do not like them so much, but I fond of Hawke's story. As I see, Hawke's story about the survive, the family. Not about the mage–templar war. Hawke was involved in this accidentally. The writers original intention probably was that Hawke want to live in safe, and want to protect his/her new home. S/He can support the mages, Anders, if s/he believe, that this is the right path, but this not was his/her goal, when arrived. _______ *Yes, I know, Varric don't spoke about rebuild and the social life, and also about that Hawke was eating and poops and making sex (or not) during the three years. Varric also don't speak about What happened in Vimmark Wasteland.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 1, 2017 6:57:55 GMT
Bioware made a single main storyline for Hawke in DA2, which is exactly what they did for the Warden in DA:O or the Inquisitor in DA:I. Which means that said unique main storyline has to accommodate every playable Hawke variants: (mage, warrior, rogue) x (compromising, blunt, clever)x (Carver/Bethany fate: dead, Grey Warden, templar/mage) . Thus we have 27 possible Hawkes. There are some Hawkes with more freedom of action in Act 3, like a warrior/rogue compromising/diplomat Hawke with no family (Leandra, Carver, Bethany all dead). And some Hawkes are quite restricted, like a non-mage Hawke with Bethany in the Circle. So BW made the choice to put Meredith in the position to refuse Hawke any chance for real political power. Even for a templar Hawke with no living mage relative, and very much a templar ally. This most likely can be explained by the mage tainted bloodline of both the Amells/Hawkes - as explained by Catilina. Which is paramount for Meredith and quite possibly important for most nobles. Hawke is Champion of Kirkwall, but s/he is a "tainted" noble also.
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Post by fylimar on Feb 9, 2017 19:52:05 GMT
Hawke's story isn't about logic. (The life not about logic...) You see, what Hawke could do, because you know what happened. (It would be nice[?] if we could always what's going to happen ...) Hawke was a relatively fresh noble, Okay, I know, his/her family is old, but s/he just arrived to Kirkwall, and regained his/her family title (s/he was noble only ~6 years ago). Gamlen's name wasn't the best reference, just as Hawke's past – refugee, smuggler/mercenary, (possible) MAGE... (or his/her sister a mage, this also was bad omen in the eyes of the people; many nobleman hid this, and was a shame), so: noble or not, Champion or not, Hawke's position was labile. The people trusted him/her, but not so much, that s/he would able to organising an armed resistance. S/He don't have enough armed power against Meredith. Peaceful solution? S/He tried, we saw... A joke. Ofc, as I see. So: s/he needed to build stronger connections. Three years is enough to help to rebuild* the city and continuing to build connections, already as Champion. But not enough to organizing an armed rebellion against the Templar Knight Commander, against the Chantry! Nevertheless, after three years Hawke gained supporters. Sadly, it was late. Templar Hawke don't need to do anything, as I already wrote. You're right, Thrask should have trust in Hawke. But this is not Hawke's fault. The dramas/operas story is often quite illogical. This game similar as a drama, a tragedy. Interestingly, I mostly do not like them so much, but I fond of Hawke's story. As I see, Hawke's story about the survive, the family. Not about the mage–templar war. Hawke was involved in this accidentally. The writers original intention probably was that Hawke want to live in safe, and want to protect his/her new home. S/He can support the mages, Anders, if s/he believe, that this is the right path, but this not was his/her goal, when arrived. _______ *Yes, I know, Varric don't spoke about rebuild and the social life, and also about that Hawke was eating and poops and making sex (or not) during the three years. Varric also don't speak about What happened in Vimmark Wasteland.I agree that Hawkes story is more about family and survival. S/he was brought into the Qunari conflict by accident, because s/he impressed the Arishok and then s/he was dragged into the conflict between Meredith and Orsino. Meredith forces her/him by threatening the life of Bethany or a mage companion (or mage Hawke) and Orsino asks nicely, but along his questline, Hawkes sibling gets abducted, which makes it personal. I think, Hawke is mostly a normal guy or gal, trying to make a living, maybe settle down with someone and looking out for family and friends. Basically the same, most of us want. Bad luck put her/him in the center of some very unfortunate events and an adventurous streak let her/him seek out some more. And I don't think, that most Hawkes have a big interest in a rebellion. Maybe they don't like Meredith or want to help their mage companions, but I don't think, that rebellion is the top point on their list of things they wanted to do I love Hawkes story, because it seems so normal (if you ignore the fantasy elements) - no end of the world, no archdemon or big hole in the sky, those stories are nice too, but once in a while, I like the normal protagonist, who just tries to get by in a mad world. So to answer the trhead title: Yes, I fully believe that DA2 is Hawkes story
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 20:14:23 GMT
Varric and Cassandra (it'sCassandra in the interludes, right?) seem to think so. Who am I to doubt them?
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Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2017 20:19:08 GMT
Varric and Cassandra (it'sCassandra in the interludes, right?) seem to think so. Who am I to doubt them? Cassandra interrogated Varric 2-3 years after the story, in Hawke Mansion. This interrogate is the frame of Hawke's 7 years story.
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