shotgunjulia
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jun 17, 2021 9:16:04 GMT
I mean they should have gone with it. IT. I mean technology that indoctrinates. That's Alex Jones territory to begin with.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 17, 2021 11:14:43 GMT
Maybe it was the guy telling the story who was indoctrinated. He had to be to tell the kid Shepard encountered the leader of the reapers taking the form of a human child while talking with 3 voices. The guy did change the story. The kid is confused. The kid is first told the 2 squadmates magically showed up on the unknown planet only to be told later the SR2 made an appearance to pick up both squadmates while Harbinger was nice enough not to fire on the ship. He was told that no one made it to the beam that everyone who was still alive fall back, retreated only to be told later that Hackett got a message that someone made to the beam.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 17, 2021 12:58:20 GMT
I never understood how people took "protagonist still alive but trillions died" as a Disney ending. I'm no expert, how many Disney movies end with a gigantic pile of corpses and the main character surviving? And how would one more dead person (the protagonist) added to all these dead bodies make such a massive difference? A trillion dead is a fine happy ending, a trillion and one is a grimdark mess? What the...?
Because to them, "Disney Ending = Protagonist alive". Doesn't matter how many trillions die, so long as the protagonist lives, that's how they define it as a "Disney Ending". The Protagonist lives, can go off and be "happily ever after".
The leaps in mental logic they have to make about this conclusion though....
Game of Thrones and The Witcher has turned an entire generation into edgelords... Now get off my lawn!
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Post by quarianmasterrace on Jun 17, 2021 14:39:30 GMT
Because to them, "Disney Ending = Protagonist alive". Doesn't matter how many trillions die, so long as the protagonist lives, that's how they define it as a "Disney Ending". The Protagonist lives, can go off and be "happily ever after".
The leaps in mental logic they have to make about this conclusion though....
Game of Thrones and The Witcher has turned an entire generation into edgelords... Now get off my lawn! GoT also shares with ME having a stupid ass ending where everyone loses 100 IQ points and acts OOC so writer can bludgeon you with pretentious cod philosophy.
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 17, 2021 20:37:00 GMT
Game of Thrones and The Witcher has turned an entire generation into edgelords... Now get off my lawn! GoT also shares with ME having a stupid ass ending where everyone loses 100 IQ points and acts OOC so writer can bludgeon you with pretentious cod philosophy. They also share therapists, trying to convince Hudson/Walters and Benioff/Weiss that it's OK to fail.
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Post by mtheillusive on Jun 17, 2021 22:17:36 GMT
Two things: 1) I notice that people use their personal preference (well the destroy ones anyway) to justify why the ending they like should be the one period. What they never seem to think about is....what if a player wants a different narrative. What if THEY WANT their Shepard to refuse, keeping the narrative of the Reapers as an unconquerable villain? What if THEY WANT their Shepard to evolve into a god like being via control? What if THEY WANT synthesis? Just cause one feels that 1 thing must be the logical ending that must be told, others may not, and its still an rpg...thus why their were choices. 2) As we don't know what the next game will be like yet, especially if set in the Milky Way...its not 100% confirmed that indoctrination theory is false. On top of that, while not ALL of the theory may be accurate, doesn't mean SOME of the theory isn't. We don't know. Lots of Speculation! On an entirely different note...I noticed that there actually is enough for a Milky Way sequel (although I don't know if Shepard's presence would undermine it). The story is already there: a)Krogan/Salrian fallout (Krogan rebellion part 2, or Salarian revenge if Wrex lives with a cured genophage as well as the Dalatrass) b)Will AI be trusted if the Geth survive and the Quarians did not? If the Quarians killed the Geth, would a certain admiral try to make a new more obediant batch with their remains? If there is peace...will the Quarians become THE major force in the galaxy? c) What happened to Shepard (destroy, control, synthesis, etc) d) Liara CLEARLY knows about the Andromeda Initiative. Will she and others make moves to ensure that the Andromeda Galaxy will be able to reconnect with the Milky Way centuries later? e) Cerberus is an idea...has it been destroyed? f) Leviathan is out there.... Hmmm....interesting.....
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 17, 2021 22:56:27 GMT
On an entirely different note...I noticed that there actually is enough for a Milky Way sequel (although I don't know if Shepard's presence would undermine it). The story is already there: a)Krogan/Salrian fallout (Krogan rebellion part 2, or Salarian revenge if Wrex lives with a cured genophage as well as the Dalatrass) b)Will AI be trusted if the Geth survive and the Quarians did not? If the Quarians killed the Geth, would a certain admiral try to make a new more obediant batch with their remains? If there is peace...will the Quarians become THE major force in the galaxy? c) What happened to Shepard (destroy, control, synthesis, etc) d) Liara CLEARLY knows about the Andromeda Initiative. Will she and others make moves to ensure that the Andromeda Galaxy will be able to reconnect with the Milky Way centuries later? e) Cerberus is an idea...has it been destroyed? f) Leviathan is out there.... Hmmm....interesting..... I've had quite a few questions about it, myself and what could come of a sequel, right after ME3. -Will the Systems Alliance be able to hold its position as the dominant government on Earth? With the colonies cut off and all those resources no longer coming in, Earth has to fend for itself, all alone. With the added problem of complete galactic collapse due to the Crucible and that being entirely on Alliance command, how bad will Alliance personnel be treated by the frustrated, scared and angry people of Earth? How many governments will pull out of the Alliance and how many will try to reinstate it? Earth will be on the brink of civil war, after that. -What of the Citadel? The council races will not be content leaving it over Earth, even in its damaged state. What about the Keepers? They should be dead, too, since they're all Reaper tech, too. -Do the mercenaries that participated in the war just settle down peacefully, or do they start some shooting and looting? It's not like leaving the solar system is going to be easy, or fast. Or that they even have the provisions for it. Or that they will even be able to restock outside of it. -What about the allied forces? They are just as stranded in the solar system as everyone else. And the Turians are completely fucked over with lack of provisions and their dextro DNA. Their only hope would be the Quarians, if they even exist. -The leviathans are still out there and their orb control thingies are still in working proximity to the allied fleets. -What happens to the pirate systems and other Terminus space faring species, now that the Relay network is gone and the Council is, effectively, disbanded? -Will the Normandy make it back? Alone and with no assistance in a now lawless galaxy? A destroy ending has so much potential for adventure and doing things that don't require one big bad, but smaller steps are required, to find some semblance of normality in the immediate future, for our friends and allies, which can span several games. And Shepard would not sit behind a desk pushing papers, when there's no such thing as a building left intact on Earth. There's great potential there.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 17, 2021 23:15:50 GMT
Two things: 1) I notice that people use their personal preference (well the destroy ones anyway) to justify why the ending they like should be the one period. What they never seem to think about is....what if a player wants a different narrative. What if THEY WANT their Shepard to refuse, keeping the narrative of the Reapers as an unconquerable villain? What if THEY WANT their Shepard to evolve into a god like being via control? What if THEY WANT synthesis? Just cause one feels that 1 thing must be the logical ending that must be told, others may not, and its still an rpg...thus why their were choices. 2) As we don't know what the next game will be like yet, especially if set in the Milky Way...its not 100% confirmed that indoctrination theory is false. On top of that, while not ALL of the theory may be accurate, doesn't mean SOME of the theory isn't. We don't know. Lots of Speculation! I always said there should be MORE ending outcomes. Bioware said "F*ck you, rocks fall" All this is assuming Refuse isn't canon, of course. Because again 'F*ck you. Rocks fall. Now pick a color" But anything in the Milky Way is gonna canonize something. Whether it's a particular ending, or they borrow from several worldstates, crib off IT, or go in an entirely new direction.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jun 18, 2021 0:27:28 GMT
Yes, The Andromeda Initiative... Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185 before or during ME2... and Liara knew all about it and didn't tell Shepard.
They have to reconcile this one.
If you want a story in the MW things will have to be canonized based on "because we said so." There are way too many branching stories to continue. You'll have a real mess if you continue branching. Too many butterflies.
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Post by traks on Jun 18, 2021 12:21:15 GMT
Yes, The Andromeda Initiative... Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185 before or during ME2... and Liara knew all about it and didn't tell Shepard.They have to reconcile this one. If you want a story in the MW things will have to be canonized based on "because we said so." There are way too many branching stories to continue. You'll have a real mess if you continue branching. Too many butterflies. Why do you think that Shepard doesn't know about the Andromeda Initiative? Could be, could not be the case. Doesn't really matter. It's irrelevant for his/her job/goal to stop the Reapers. You can bet, that Liara/other squadmates and Shepard talked about a lot of stuff, we - the players - don't know, because it's irrelevant for the game at hand. Shepard also does/should know a lot of stuff from before the player took control and never hears about...
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 18, 2021 13:27:23 GMT
"no more"? That implies that at some previous time, it was... but it wasn't. "Indoctrination theory" was always dumber than the actual endings, which is saying something because the actual endings were pretty bad.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2021 13:46:16 GMT
Why do you think that Shepard doesn't know about the Andromeda Initiative? Could be, could not be the case. Doesn't really matter. It's irrelevant for his/her job/goal to stop the Reapers. You can bet, that Liara/other squadmates and Shepard talked about a lot of stuff, we - the players - don't know, because it's irrelevant for the game at hand. Shepard also does/should know a lot of stuff from before the player took control and never hears about... That depends. Do you consider the audio recording that Shepard makes for the Initiative, to be something in context to the Shepard you played? Maybe my Shepard doesn't like turncoats, that leave the galaxy. What's more, as the Initiative is irrelevant to the games goals, so is Shepard irrelevant to the Intitiative's goals. Are we expected to believe that, throughout the Initiative's preparations, Alec kept correspondence with Liara, which we are never privy to, in 3 games, not even mentioned in passing, but still important enough to Liara to ask Shepard to make a recording for them? The entire Initiative doesn't even get a mention in 3 games. Nor even the secret Ark 6 that leave, potentially, just as the Reaper invasion begins. Nobody in the entire trilogy talks about it once, yet it is so important, to have Quarians, Elcor, Asari, Turians, nobody mentions it even in passing. Conrad Verner doesn't talk about his, better than him, sister was on board, or Zaeed how his, better than him, son was on board etc. etc. It's like something everyone actively avoids talking about, in the entire trilogy, but something so big, as colonizing another galaxy, with incredible new tech that nobody else has come up with, with virtually unlimited resources and Andromeda does it in like 10 years, on a shoe string budget, scrounged up by the Benefactor. Oh, but the Benefactor is the geth and it is their secret mission to-no, no, that is insane. As insane as people actively avoiding to talk about something so big at even a single point, in three games. Not even a news bulletin during the elevator rides in ME1 or as we pass by the news terminals in ME2. Or hell, even a mention in ME3. "Do you think Ark 6 made it past the Reapers"? Not even that. Not a peep. And suddenly, we are supposed to expect that Liara is buddy buddy with Alec, buddy buddy with Shepard and that Shepard also would make the recording for the Initiative. What fucking for? Bioware making a lot of assumptions about what the protagonist would be doing. And, if I get this straight, not only was MET not our story, but Bioware's something that Mac said and invalidated the promise that started with ME1, but also, the protagonist, isn't even our protagonist. So effectively, we never played the games, since that's not an RPG. I demand a full refund, on the premise of false advertisement, for all the people that ever bought any ME game, including the LE. In fact, I'm starting a lawsuit, against Bioware and EA, if that is the case.
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Post by quarianmasterrace on Jun 18, 2021 14:29:19 GMT
If anyone from the MET knew about the Initiative and how it (with a scientific/industrial base of only 100k, the size of a single small city, most of whom seemingly aren't very bright as they turn into petty criminals upon arrival) developed impossible tech ODSY drives with infinite range without discharge. Drives that trillions of people couldn't come up with in the previous 2500 years, that can basically circumvent the Reaper controlled Mass Relay system, yet didn't requisition this tech and its massive advantages over conventional drives for the coming Reaper War itself rather than some science project, then they were incredibly stupid and negligent.
Is Shepard incredibly stupid and negligent? Shadow Broker Liara whom we know is aware of the project? I don't see how Tali doesn't know about the Quarian Ark, considering it's taking a not insignificant portion of their tiny population and a massive ship with it, and that seems like something you'd take into account in the weekly Admiralty Zoom call minutes. I'd get the Council being stupid and shifty because that's their M.O., but Wrex is the overlord of all krogan and somehow doesn't know or doesn't tell us his clan is involved. Legion has the collective knowledge of all geth but it doesn't know or doesn't tell us about the magical geth telescope made of mass relays they were using to search for the Reapers, that all the Andromeda data came from.
Nah I guess none of that was important enough to ever mention in all that downtime. It's a galaxy sized plot hole.
Mind you, this isn't a big deal for ME3, which has plenty of those already. Ends up not mattering since the Reapers forget they can shut down the relay network to make the plot happen, but knowing that they can do that, every ship possible should have been being retrofitted to have one of these ODSY drives starting in 2183.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 18, 2021 14:48:09 GMT
I would be curious if Legion knew about the geth telescope. Would it have told Shepard? That is a vital bit of information. Maybe have a mission to investigate this magic telescope to use to see where the reapers might be and get a possible idea how much time the galaxy has before the reapers show up. Of course finding the reapers in darkspace would required a large amount of luck given the vastness of space, but then again the geth telescope is magic, right. So if Shepard were to say the magic words, abracadabra, the telescope might locate the reapers.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2021 15:07:34 GMT
I would be curious if Legion knew about the geth telescope. Would it have told Shepard? That is a vital bit of information. Maybe have a mission to investigate this magic telescope to use to see where the reapers might be and get a possible idea how much time the galaxy has before the reapers show up. Of course finding the reapers in darkspace would required a large amount of luck given the vastness of space, but then again the geth telescope is magic, right. So if Shepard were to say the magic words, abracadabra, the telescope might locate the reapers. I can imagine Shepard bringing a piece of Reaper tech to the telescope's nozzle, just for it to bark like Lassie and point toward the Reapers general direction.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 18, 2021 17:21:07 GMT
Yes, The Andromeda Initiative... Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185 before or during ME2... and Liara knew all about it and didn't tell Shepard. They have to reconcile this one. If you want a story in the MW things will have to be canonized based on "because we said so." There are way too many branching stories to continue. You'll have a real mess if you continue branching. Too many butterflies. Plus how the oh-so-special humans managed to develop engines every bit as fast as standard ones, but are capable of not exploding after running more than a couple of days AND can be fitted on everything from an Ark to a corvette. All in less than a decade, and while humans had barely left their own solar system! (and hilariously went "BOOOOOOORING! WHat else ya got?")
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 18, 2021 18:06:10 GMT
Yes, The Andromeda Initiative... Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185 before or during ME2... and Liara knew all about it and didn't tell Shepard. They have to reconcile this one. If you want a story in the MW things will have to be canonized based on "because we said so." There are way too many branching stories to continue. You'll have a real mess if you continue branching. Too many butterflies. Plus how the oh-so-special humans managed to develop engines every bit as fast as standard ones, but are capable of not exploding after running more than a couple of days AND can be fitted on everything from an Ark to a corvette. If we did. It’s almost like there is a mysterious person behind the Initiative that needs to be investigated.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 18, 2021 18:56:36 GMT
Plus how the oh-so-special humans managed to develop engines every bit as fast as standard ones, but are capable of not exploding after running more than a couple of days AND can be fitted on everything from an Ark to a corvette. If we did. It’s almost like there is a mysterious person behind the Initiative that needs to be investigated. In which case MEA told the wrong story...
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 19, 2021 20:14:20 GMT
Neat. Wasn’t referring to them in the part you quoted.
The Collectors, husks, cannibals, brutes, banshees, marauders, and the rest that are transformed into basically cannon fodder by the Reapers are implied to be nothing more than zombies. Mordin even theorizes that the Collectors are dead and are just mindless tools/slaves/weapons for the Reapers in ME2.
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Post by NUM13ER on Jun 20, 2021 20:38:45 GMT
The indoctrination theory was the fanbase trying to cope with the endings. A dream of something more meaningful behind it. But it was never real. Nor was it ever BioWare's intent in the slightest. The Extended Cut was the final nail in it's coffin.
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Post by skekSil on Jun 21, 2021 18:49:08 GMT
People like Indoctrination Theory because they never got it irl. Had IT been in ME3 people would have been bitching about 'muh choises dont matter' or 'its a cop-out move added at the last moment' or even 'Dark Energy story would have been better'.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 21, 2021 19:33:37 GMT
People like Indoctrination Theory because they never got it irl. Had IT been in ME3 people would have been bitching about 'muh choises dont matter' or 'its a cop-out move added at the last moment' or even 'Dark Energy story would have been better'.Wait, I thought IT wasn't in ME3!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 21, 2021 19:39:58 GMT
People like Indoctrination Theory because they never got it irl. Had IT been in ME3 people would have been bitching about 'muh choises dont matter' or 'its a cop-out move added at the last moment' or even 'Dark Energy story would have been better'.Wait, I thought IT wasn't in ME3! Hence them saying “had it been” literally before where your underline starts.
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Post by skekSil on Jun 21, 2021 19:42:09 GMT
Wait, I thought IT wasn't in ME3! Thats what starkid wants you to believe
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,879 Likes: 49,335
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,335
Iakus
20,879
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 21, 2021 19:44:38 GMT
Wait, I thought IT wasn't in ME3! Hence them saying “had it been” literally before where your underline starts. But the underlined stuff is STILL happening
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