FiendishlyInventive
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jul 6, 2021 16:22:06 GMT
Posted this on another science fiction intellectual property website but thought it might also be worth posting here:
I am playing ME3 now and loving it but Mac Walters' no Drew Karpyshyn, it's nowhere near as tightly written as ME2 and ME1 and clearly quite rushed, but features the best crafted gameplay and major events of the series- but that ending's the real honest kicker because no matter how much you change anything with modifications of any kind it will always feel unfulfilling because of the logical fallacy inherent in the premise of the choices presented to you.
But unlike a recently butchered ongoing fantasy phenomenon, Mass Effect still can continue on, and right the wrongs of the way things concluded previously, and in so many various ways.
Particularly a return to the more fleshed out roleplaying of the original Mass Effect I like the idea of immensely, with an older and wiser Shepard, that you can use the last Trilogy's events as the new background and physiological profile for.
And you can finish off the Reaper threat for real through the Leviathan narrative, or take a simpler premise onboard, or make it a space western in the vein of The Mandalorian- so many possibilities and opportunities frankly.
It's make or break for Bioware and must be as good as the originals if not surpass them. That's in the Singleplayer narrative chiefly. Oh and add the Multiplayer to the Legendary Edition for God's sake!
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 7, 2021 23:14:23 GMT
It's make or break for Bioware and must be as good as the originals if not surpass them. The writing is not going to improve. We will get a new coat of paint over the same flavour writing we've been getting for the past decade, which arguably hasn't gone down that well so far. So either normies will gobble it up because they have no standards and will stomach everything, which is a possibility, but I also see normies being increasingly more put off by mediocre writing in all sort of productions, from TV shows (ST:D, ST:Picard, basically all Alex Kurtzman shows, Westworld, Watchmen, Game of Thrones etc.), to movies (Terminator: Dark Fate, Charlies Angels (2019), Ghostbusters (2016), Disney Star Wars etc.), to Comic Books (almost everything Marvel and DC have put out since 2017 at the latest) and finally video games (The Last of Us 2, Cyberpunk 2077, all Bioware games since 2011, etc.). It could go either way. It could be that the normies just settle, if they are continually fed these types of narratives (and by "these types", I mean bad), but I honestly don't see it. I can be wrong, but I currently don't see it. Maybe if all there is to it, is the gameplay and people just start buying Bioware games purely for the gameplay with no regard to the narrative and just get served CoD like experiences. I don't know. I'm honestly not seeing this as a possible outcome. But unlike a recently butcher ongoing fantasy phenomenon, Mass Effect still can continue on, and right the wrongs of the way things concluded previously, and in so many various ways. Particularly a return to the more fleshed out roleplaying of the original Mass Effect I like the idea of immensely, with an older and wiser Shepard, that you can use the last Trilogy's events as the new background and physiological profile for. And you can finish off the Reaper threat for real through the Leviathan narrative, or take a simpler premise onboard, or make it a space western in the vein of The Mandalorian- so many possibilities and opportunities frankly. There's a lot of things you can do, I'm not sure how Bioware can justify them. What do I mean. Let's say they take the Mandalorian route. Just a crew of a ship, stuck in a cluster, with no Relay, because they're damaged in all endings, shortly after the Reaper War, like a few days, nobody knows what happened, all they know is that the Reapers are gone and you just do whatever. Does it matter if its in the Milky Way somewhere, or the Heleus Cluster in Andromeda? You're still confined in a single cluster, with the exception of no Angara, there's virtually no difference. The new cast will be about the same quality as in any other Bioware game, which haven't been received particularly well and certainly not to the heights of the ME2 crew and the story won't be very interesting, to justify the 8 years, at best, between releases in the Mass Effect franchise. The franchise needs to make a powerful statement with its return and the trailer already has the normies convinced that Shepard and the crew are back. Anything short and that momentum is just going to plummet. As big fans as we are, we can't buy 3 million copies on launch. The normies will need to buy this game and for a studio that, so far, hasn't made a return to the forefront in a decade (and I know, Dragon Age: Inquisition), but the way things are going and how Bioware's reputation is currently standing, considering the writing, at least, I don't see the normie crowd backing Bioware. Maybe if the game is really technically good, like a Sony Exclusive type of polish AAA experience, as opposed to most flawed AAA games the west is releasing nowadays, like Cyperbunk, DICE's newer Battlefield games and the Battlefronts, the Avengers and the Outriders and the Dark Alliances etc. all those live service games, to be honest and how none of the Biowares future games are being developed as not live services, do I see them being successful? I don't. How many Live Service games are successful right now? Destiny 2, Warframe, Apex Legends, Fortnite, CoD, the usual sports game suspects etc. Do I see Mass Effect being that type of franchise? ME:A's MP wasn't. Anthem wasn't. Can DA4/ME: Will Continue do it? I can't rule it out, but I don't believe they can. What can Bioware do to really strike big with the normies, then? We already said it above, just give them what they expect and are excited about.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 8, 2021 0:12:41 GMT
We'll probably, no, rather we'll definitely get a different flavour of writing compared to that of ME:A. Inquisition had terrible writing, I know a lot of people feel strongly about Inquisition and love the writing, but it's not that good. It's a step down from ME3, substantially. There is just a lot of padding to the dialogues and character interactions, that are a lot of people talking about nothing. There is a swath of shit to get through. I don't expect that to change. I don't expect the naively ... optimistic? Let's go with "optimistic". The naively optimistic style of dialogue of Anthem and Andromeda will definitely not return, but I expect the swath of shit to get to the actual meat of the companions, some 60 hours into the game, to be just as prevalent, because quantity over quality. The ME2 characters may not have had the quantity, or the side interactions of characters in ME3/Inquisition/Andromeda, but there was no shit to cut through, the lines afforded to them, where the best the writers had come up with. So we were spared all the superfluous padding and lines that nobody cares to listen. The fact that there were so many companions, so little available disc space and so much audio, might have actually been the companions saving grace and the reason why most of them are so well liked.
Except Jacob.
So it's not all bad. If Bioware can filter the quantity for something less bloated, to dive into the good stuff, or prioritize the good stuff and leave the superfluous for later, where your relation with the characters is already strong, so you won't mind the cringe dialogue (I'm looking at you, Cassandra Pentaghast), it'll be fine, even at Inquisition levels. The normies will stomach it. It's not going to be great, but it'll do ... fine. I don't think fine is enough, but that's the best we can hope for the next Bioware release. Can I be surprised? Can Bioware release a masterpiece of video game writing? Sure. I can win the powerball, too. I could be hit by a meteorite. It's just looking unlikely, unless something changes.
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 8, 2021 3:15:00 GMT
My opinion is that the only reason why the first games story was as good as they were is because they didn't bloat out the game to keep players happy. With each game they made them bigger and longer, but really pad out the story for each game. The only reason why it works with ME2 is because there is mostly side stories for a bunch of short stories with a really small main arc. I don't think they could do that for every game for it would get old and you could see through the trick.
Now, I don't have a problem with Drew Karpyshyn, but don't give him all the credit for ME1. He wasn't the only writer on the game and frankly it was the combination of that entire team that made ME1 what it was. His work in other BioWare games isn't at that same level because he wasn't working with that group of people either. So going in and saying it needs something like that one person just won't work because it teams to try and replicate that team of writers and not just one person that the community gives all the credit to.
Now I will buy the heck out of a Mass Effect game that can be completed in 10 hours or less like the first Mass Effect game, but the tastes and what people will accept has changed and game development for some reason has decided they have to try and appease everyone and generally does the opposite.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 4:17:27 GMT
I don't give any new Mass Effect much of a hope of success. The fan base simply has been too divided regarding the franchise for too long and there is no sign of it ending any time soon... so Bioware is bound to displease most fans in different ways with any new game. Heck, we can't even agree on something so obvious as what number the game is in the franchise. Something has to change within the fan base (like some signs that it can be somewhat flexible in what people want) before things have any hope of getting better within Bioware itself.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 8, 2021 21:33:57 GMT
I don't give any new Mass Effect much of a hope of success. The fan base simply has been too divided regarding the franchise for too long and there is no sign of it ending any time soon... so Bioware is bound to displease most fans in different ways with any new game. Depends on what Bioware wants the new Mass Effect game to be. I can tell you many things that will disappoint the fanbase. All likely for Bioware to make. Because they're Bioware and doing what the fanbase doesn't care to see, is what they've grown really good at, the past 10 years now. And yes, I know, people loved DA2 and ME3 and DA:I and Bioware never burned them. They're not the market. The shrinkage is real and selling as many copies as a game in 2010, is not a success in 2021. Video games are now the biggest entertainment business on the planet, have been for a while, eclipsing even the movie industry. And they keep growing. Meanwhile, Bioware releases games whose lifetime revenue gets dwarfed by the opening weekend earnings of any Marvel movie. And I do understand, one is a powerhouse of the movie industry, the other is a Bioware game. Bioware is a triple A video game studio, or so they claim, releasing games which average $100 million, of which $40+ million goes to marketing campaigns. To put it bluntly, it's an unsustainable model that either needs a budget cut, or to generate double the revenue. Or something in between. Or even better, both. Out of all of the possibilities, which title could earn Bioware the most favourable reception? Especially since EA is now raising prices to $70 per title. Madden already costs $70, Battlefield does, as well, so it is expected that all of EA's triple A games and sports games will release at the $70 price point. Furthermore, the LE showed us that Bioware isn't over their technical problems, as the LE is far buggier than the original games. So expect just as many bugs as before, the same quality of writing, because nothing changed in the writers room, but the gameplay will be good and the game content will be sound. And I don't know if that's good for an "RPG". It'd be better if Bioware just dropped the pretenses and just made ME into a GeoW clone, completely, with autodialogue and no choices. But they are so proud of their dialogue wheel to drop it, like it was reinventing the dialogue system, when it is so bad. So bad. It keeps getting criticized, each time and each time it gets worse. I wish they'd drop it. Heck, we can't even agree on something so obvious as what number the game is in the franchise. Well, that's not on us. Bioware insisted on it. And just to quote something from Chris Priestley in that interview, which always pisses me off, worse now, then back then. "No, because the game does not have to come after. Or before. Or off to the side. Or with characters you know. Or yaddayaddayadda." What would you call a game that involves Liara and takes place 600 years after the endings, you donkey? "It doesn't happen in the past, or the future, or off to the side". Then when does it exist? Outside of time and space? God fucking damn, that was such a stupid fucking thing to say, that would have earned a slap from me. Sue me, put me in jail, but Chris was so fucking terrible to interact with, in his later years in Bioware. Like he didn't care. Maybe he was tired of the crunch and didn't, but I've worked crunch, too. On a call center. For 6 years. By the time I left, I had 64 days of leave that I never got, meaning I hadn't seen a day off in 3 years. I worked double shifts and weekends and I dealt with people that shouted profanities in my ear all day long and I kept it cool and collected and when I quit, my department leader was at a loss, because he had nobody like me. No matter what Chris actually believed about anything, as a professional, he should have kept the many shit he spouted at the time, to himself. Sorry for the rant.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 21:51:27 GMT
I don't give any new Mass Effect much of a hope of success. The fan base simply has been too divided regarding the franchise for too long and there is no sign of it ending any time soon... so Bioware is bound to displease most fans in different ways with any new game. Depends on what Bioware wants the new Mass Effect game to be. I can tell you many things that will disappoint the fanbase. All likely for Bioware to make. Because they're Bioware and doing what the fanbase doesn't care to see, is what they've grown really good at, the past 10 years now. And yes, I know, people loved DA2 and ME3 and DA:I and Bioware never burned them. They're not the market. The shrinkage is real and selling as many copies as a game in 2010, is not a success in 2021. Video games are now the biggest entertainment business on the planet, have been for a while, eclipsing even the movie industry. And they keep growing. Meanwhile, Bioware releases games whose lifetime revenue gets dwarfed by the opening weekend earnings of any Marvel movie. And I do understand, one is a powerhouse of the movie industry, the other is a Bioware game. Bioware is a triple A video game studio, or so they claim, releasing games which average $100 million, of which $40+ million goes to marketing campaigns. To put it bluntly, it's an unsustainable model that either needs a budget cut, or to generate double the revenue. Or something in between. Or even better, both. Out of all of the possibilities, which title could earn Bioware the most favourable reception? Especially since EA is now raising prices to $70 per title. Madden already costs $70, Battlefield does, as well, so it is expected that all of EA's triple A games and sports games will release at the $70 price point. Furthermore, the LE showed us that Bioware isn't over their technical problems, as the LE is far buggier than the original games. So expect just as many bugs as before, the same quality of writing, because nothing changed in the writers room, but the gameplay will be good and the game content will be sound. And I don't know if that's good for an "RPG". It'd be better if Bioware just dropped the pretenses and just made ME into a GeoW clone, completely, with autodialogue and no choices. But they are so proud of their dialogue wheel to drop it, like it was reinventing the dialogue system, when it is so bad. So bad. It keeps getting criticized, each time and each time it gets worse. I wish they'd drop it. Heck, we can't even agree on something so obvious as what number the game is in the franchise. Well, that's not on us. Bioware insisted on it. And just to quote something from Chris Priestley in that interview, which always pisses me off, worse now, then back then. "No, because the game does not have to come after. Or before. Or off to the side. Or with characters you know. Or yaddayaddayadda." What would you call a game that involves Liara and takes place 600 years after the endings, you donkey? "It doesn't happen in the past, or the future, or off to the side". Then when does it exist? Outside of time and space? God fucking damn, that was such a stupid fucking thing to say, that would have earned a slap from me. Sue me, put me in jail, but Chris was so fucking terrible to interact with, in his later years in Bioware. Like he didn't care. Maybe he was tired of the crunch and didn't, but I've worked crunch, too. On a call center. For 6 years. By the time I left, I had 64 days of leave that I never got, meaning I hadn't seen a day off in 3 years. I worked double shifts and weekends and I dealt with people that shouted profanities in my ear all day long and I kept it cool and collected and when I quit, my department leader was at a loss, because he had nobody like me. No matter what Chris actually believed about anything, as a professional, he should have kept the many shit he spouted at the time, to himself. Sorry for the rant. Your opinion vs. mine. I'm still not seeing any indication from the fan base that they just won't fight over whatever Bioware may decide to do. As a result, I'm not giving it much hope of success at all... and if you recall, I didn't give ME:A a snowball's chance either.
Keep in mind... You're the one who said for months that remastering the OT would be a bad investment by Bioware and I'm the one who said it would be a good, quick way for them to get some cash into their coffers...
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 8, 2021 22:43:36 GMT
Keep in mind... You're the one who said for months that remastering the OT would be a bad investment by Bioware and I'm the one who said it would be a good, quick way for them to get some cash into their coffers... Well, it was. Besides the money, which, as I said, it would make them money because it's basically free money. It wouldn't even need 100k copies to break even. I think it is safe to assume that. But the one thing that people say unanimously, is how much more they like the trilogy, compared to anything Bioware has done since, it is still a bunch of games from 10 years ago, that look and play as such, which new people didn't like, the games are not indicative of the quality of future Bioware products and there is no confidence in them making a return, only lament to how far they've fallen since and while the complaints about the ending aren't as prevalent, nobody is saying the endings were good, just that they were not as bad as they were on release and it usually leaves people with the same emptiness that they felt back in the day. And those that go to play Andromeda, usually come back with a bad review for it. A guy spent $40 on it and couldn't get through the first hour. I know that people here think that Shepard and the crew's story is done, but there is nothing to substitute them with. Which isn't a positive. If you made new fans, you're putting them up against an impossible standard to hit, without going back to them. And even that won't be as good this time around, because as I said, there's no change in the writing room. But it will get sales.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 23:21:48 GMT
Keep in mind... You're the one who said for months that remastering the OT would be a bad investment by Bioware and I'm the one who said it would be a good, quick way for them to get some cash into their coffers... Well, it was. Besides the money, which, as I said, it would make them money because it's basically free money. It wouldn't even need 100k copies to break even. I think it is safe to assume that. But the one thing that people say unanimously, is how much more they like the trilogy, compared to anything Bioware has done since, it is still a bunch of games from 10 years ago, that look and play as such, which new people didn't like, the games are not indicative of the quality of future Bioware products and there is no confidence in them making a return, only lament to how far they've fallen since and while the complaints about the ending aren't as prevalent, nobody is saying the endings were good, just that they were not as bad as they were on release and it usually leaves people with the same emptiness that they felt back in the day. And those that go to play Andromeda, usually come back with a bad review for it. A guy spent $40 on it and couldn't get through the first hour. I know that people here think that Shepard and the crew's story is done, but there is nothing to substitute them with. Which isn't a positive. If you made new fans, you're putting them up against an impossible standard to hit, without going back to them. And even that won't be as good this time around, because as I said, there's no change in the writing room. But it will get sales. You still don't get it do you?... your opinion vs. mine... All I see here are people who say they are fans arguing... about everything they disliked about the Trilogy. Unless that changes, I don't give any new game Bioware makes much of a chance... no matter what you may want to number it and no matter how much additional hate you want to heap on any other game they've made.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 0:10:09 GMT
You still don't get it do you?... your opinion vs. mine... All I see here are people who say they are fans arguing... about everything they disliked about the Trilogy. Shouldn't there be? Is it better to just ... not? Pretend its all OK? Bioware isn't engaging the gaming audience like they use to. If we have only negatives, specific negatives, that we talk about all the time, then clearly those negatives are preventing the userbase from mending. And if it hasn't happened 9 years later, something should be done to change it. Unless that changes, I don't give any new game Bioware makes much of a chance... no matter what you may want to number it and no matter how much additional hate you want to heap on any other game they've made. I don't care what number it has. And I can't talk positively about games that were negatively received and further damaged the franchise and the brand. What am I supposed to say? At least it didn't give me cancer? That's a positive. It reminds me of that one time Chris Priestley, God bless that man, such an endless source of memes, these days, reminds me of that time Chris Priestley told us that the endings couldn't have been that bad, if we still talked bout them. A short list of some bad things people still talk about -9/11 -The Vietnam War -World War 2 -World War 1 -The Holocaust -The Spanish Flu -The Black Death -Covid-19 -The Dark Ages -Cancer -AIDS -Leukemia -Sudden Infant Death Syndrome -Mental Disorders -Global Warming -Nuclear Warfare -3rd World Hunger -Slavery -Genocide Can't be that bad, if we're still talking about them, eh Chris?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 10:26:16 GMT
You still don't get it do you?... your opinion vs. mine... All I see here are people who say they are fans arguing... about everything they disliked about the Trilogy. Shouldn't there be? Is it better to just ... not? Pretend its all OK? Bioware isn't engaging the gaming audience like they use to. If we have only negatives, specific negatives, that we talk about all the time, then clearly those negatives are preventing the userbase from mending. And if it hasn't happened 9 years later, something should be done to change it. Unless that changes, I don't give any new game Bioware makes much of a chance... no matter what you may want to number it and no matter how much additional hate you want to heap on any other game they've made. I don't care what number it has. And I can't talk positively about games that were negatively received and further damaged the franchise and the brand. What am I supposed to say? At least it didn't give me cancer? That's a positive. It reminds me of that one time Chris Priestley, God bless that man, such an endless source of memes, these days, reminds me of that time Chris Priestley told us that the endings couldn't have been that bad, if we still talked bout them. A short list of some bad things people still talk about -9/11 -The Vietnam War -World War 2 -World War 1 -The Holocaust -The Spanish Flu -The Black Death -Covid-19 -The Dark Ages -Cancer -AIDS -Leukemia -Sudden Infant Death Syndrome -Mental Disorders -Global Warming -Nuclear Warfare -3rd World Hunger -Slavery -Genocide Can't be that bad, if we're still talking about them, eh Chris? You can do whatever you like. I'm not stopping you. I'm merely predicting a consequence. Unless all this negativity improves, it won't matter what sort of new ME game Bioware puts out, there will be too much negativity ahead of the release (i.e. before anyone even knows what type of game or quality of game it is) for it to overcome. You claim that "everyone loves the Trilogy," but there's plenty of negative discussion here over things within the Trilogy. All that negativity was here long before ME:A was even released... and it's still here after a successful release of MELE. So, that's my prediction... the next ME game is not likely to be well received either. They'll be more of the same... complaints about the writing, the endings again, yada, yada, yada. "Fans" don't change... but they need to... or the cycle will keep repeating itself.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 11:40:21 GMT
You can do whatever you like. I'm not stopping you. I'm merely predicting a consequence. Unless all this negativity improves, it won't matter what sort of new ME game Bioware puts out, there will be too much negativity ahead of the release (i.e. before anyone even knows what type of game or quality of game it is) for it to overcome. You claim that "everyone loves the Trilogy," but there's plenty of negative discussion here over things within the Trilogy. All that negativity was here long before ME:A was even released... and it's still here after a successful release of MELE. So, that's my prediction... the next ME game is not likely to be well received either. They'll be more of the same... complaints about the writing, the endings again, yada, yada, yada. "Fans" don't change... but they need to... or the cycle will keep repeating itself. So you're saying that one day, collectively, the fans woke up and just decided to shit on Bioware, for no reason whatsoever. Ah, shame on the fans, then. How could they? How dare they?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 13:11:40 GMT
You can do whatever you like. I'm not stopping you. I'm merely predicting a consequence. Unless all this negativity improves, it won't matter what sort of new ME game Bioware puts out, there will be too much negativity ahead of the release (i.e. before anyone even knows what type of game or quality of game it is) for it to overcome. You claim that "everyone loves the Trilogy," but there's plenty of negative discussion here over things within the Trilogy. All that negativity was here long before ME:A was even released... and it's still here after a successful release of MELE. So, that's my prediction... the next ME game is not likely to be well received either. They'll be more of the same... complaints about the writing, the endings again, yada, yada, yada. "Fans" don't change... but they need to... or the cycle will keep repeating itself. So you're saying that one day, collectively, the fans woke up and just decided to shit on Bioware, for no reason whatsoever. Ah, shame on the fans, then. How could they? How dare they? No, that's your warped "spin" on what I'm saying... and I can't stop you from making those entirely erroneous and negatively blind assessments about what I'm saying... so, I don't intend to try. If the fans are just going to persist "shitting on Bioware" regardless of what they do, then I believe that makes it increasingly difficult for Bioware to turn things around... to do things like maintain staff morale, inspire staff creativity, attract new talent with new ideas, etc. Ultimately, the only alternative EA will have is to close the studio. If that's what fans want, they'll ultimately get it. A grudge by any name is still a grudge... and it's more than 9 years since L'Etoile's leaving started all of this.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 13:59:52 GMT
No, that's your warped "spin" on what I'm saying... and I can't stop you from making those entirely erroneous and negatively blind assessments about what I'm saying... so, I don't intend to try. If the fans are just going to persist "shitting on Bioware" regardless of what they do, then I believe that makes it increasingly difficult for Bioware to turn things around... to do things like maintain staff morale, inspire staff creativity, attract new talent with new ideas, etc. Ultimately, the only alternative EA will have is to close the studio. If that's what fans want, they'll ultimately get it. A grudge by any name is still a grudge... and it's more than 9 years since L'Etoile's leaving started all of this. Then what happens is that either Bioware addresses what made the fans react in a negative manner, because 9 years later, here we are again, or as you say, EA ultimately closes the studio. The thing is, whether you believe that pleasing the fans is impossible or not, is irrelevant, unless the studio tries and it hasn't tried. All I keep hearing from Bioware is that they "hope". They "hope" things will change, they "hope" the endings will be better received. They "hope" to capture the CoD audience. They "hope" to capture the Skyrim audience. There is a lot of "hoping" going around, not much "doing". There is a saying " Pray to God, but row for shore. " I don't see any rowing. I get that the EC was supposed to be the rowing, but it was rowing towards the deep, not the shore. The saying says "row for shore". Easy mistake to make, when you don't want to listen to what you're being told, like Bioware did and keeps doing since.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 14:26:45 GMT
No, that's your warped "spin" on what I'm saying... and I can't stop you from making those entirely erroneous and negatively blind assessments about what I'm saying... so, I don't intend to try. If the fans are just going to persist "shitting on Bioware" regardless of what they do, then I believe that makes it increasingly difficult for Bioware to turn things around... to do things like maintain staff morale, inspire staff creativity, attract new talent with new ideas, etc. Ultimately, the only alternative EA will have is to close the studio. If that's what fans want, they'll ultimately get it. A grudge by any name is still a grudge... and it's more than 9 years since L'Etoile's leaving started all of this. Then what happens is that either Bioware addresses what made the fans react in a negative manner, because 9 years later, here we are again, or as you say, EA ultimately closes the studio. The thing is, whether you believe that pleasing the fans is impossible or not, is irrelevant, unless the studio tries and it hasn't tried. All I keep hearing from Bioware is that they "hope". They "hope" things will change, they "hope" the endings will be better received. They "hope" to capture the CoD audience. They "hope" to capture the Skyrim audience. There is a lot of "hoping" going around, not much "doing". There is a saying " Pray to God, but row for shore. " I don't see any rowing. I get that the EC was supposed to be the rowing, but it was rowing towards the deep, not the shore. The saying says "row for shore". Easy mistake to make, when you don't want to listen to what you're being told, like Bioware did and keeps doing since. I believe Bioware has tried, you don't and we are never going to agree on that... because you're a disgruntled "fan" who claims to still be a fan even when you've obviously not been a fan for some years. I think the people at Bioware should stop trying and move on to other things... other jobs where they can be happy and recognized for their talents and where this 9-year litany of a grudge (that started more than 9 years ago) won't haunt them anymore. I think it is inevitable that EA will close the studio and that the so-called fans (who haven't been fans for years) will say Bioware deserved it. Everyone loses... simple as that.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 14:41:02 GMT
I believe Bioware has tried, you don't and we are never going to agree on that... because you're a disgruntled "fan" who claims to still be a fan even when you've obviously not been a fan for some years. I think the people at Bioware should stop trying and move on to other things... other jobs where they can be happy and recognized for their talents and where this 9-year litany of a grudge (that started more than 9 years ago) won't haunt them anymore. I think it is inevitable that EA will close the studio and that the so-called fans (who haven't been fans for years) will say Bioware deserved it. Everyone loses... simple as that. Again, doubling down on something, isn't fixing what's wrong. It's making worse what was already there. And if a company can't produce something that people want, then no consumer lost anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 15:37:26 GMT
I believe Bioware has tried, you don't and we are never going to agree on that... because you're a disgruntled "fan" who claims to still be a fan even when you've obviously not been a fan for some years. I think the people at Bioware should stop trying and move on to other things... other jobs where they can be happy and recognized for their talents and where this 9-year litany of a grudge (that started more than 9 years ago) won't haunt them anymore. I think it is inevitable that EA will close the studio and that the so-called fans (who haven't been fans for years) will say Bioware deserved it. Everyone loses... simple as that. Again, doubling down on something, isn't fixing what's wrong. It's making worse what was already there. And if a company can't produce something that people want, then no consumer lost anything. {shrug} At least the people who have been working all this time trying to produce something to please virtually "unpleasable" consumers will have moved on and will be able to devote their time and energies towards activities that will be more likely to bear fruit for them. They'll recover. Whether the loss of Bioware finally enables the disgruntled "fans" to eventually move on... is up to each one of them.
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Post by mgsmsc on Jul 9, 2021 15:52:16 GMT
Whatever they produce will have to be much better executed than Anthem and better across the board than ME:A. Even then, fans of previous titles are not necessarily going to accept the direction Bioware go with a sequel. I've read people writing that Mass Effect went down hill after the original let alone by the time Andromeda came round! Mainly I hope that the technical and staffing problems have been addressed, allowing them to at least move forward with whatever they have envisaged.
Personally, I am not in favour of Shepherd returning. Multiple reasons but in short I think that it has run its course. I am currently replaying ME:A (a bit of MP too) and the real downside for me is still the basic scripting of characters (Ryder included) and delivery of the story. On top of that I think there are minor issues across the board.
It's not impossible to break the downward trend - the OT isn't without critique but with increasing pressure from world events and past failures you can't help but worry a little about how it turns out.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 15:57:12 GMT
{shrug} At least the people who have been working all this time trying to produce something to please virtually "unpleasable" consumers will have moved on and will be able to devote their time and energies towards activities that will be more likely to bear fruit for them. They'll recover. Whether the loss of Bioware finally enables the disgruntled "fans" to eventually move on... is up to each one of them. You need to understand that supporting what you don't like, will also not produce something that you will like. If the problem lies with the people calling the shots, then each and every employee of that company, is better off working somewhere where their work and talents can be better appreciated, than a company that had them in crunch, as per Mark Darrah, for up to 12 years. That's not valuing your employees and, as they have said, per the Schreier article, the "success" of Inquisition was more of a problem, than a boon, because it prolonged an unsustainable work practice. Bioware has not been a good company to work for, in addition to not developing good products, for a while now. So if that is the best that Bioware can do, it is best for everyone involved that they are no more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 16:05:28 GMT
{shrug} At least the people who have been working all this time trying to produce something to please virtually "unpleasable" consumers will have moved on and will be able to devote their time and energies towards activities that will be more likely to bear fruit for them. They'll recover. Whether the loss of Bioware finally enables the disgruntled "fans" to eventually move on... is up to each one of them. You need to understand that supporting what you don't like, will also not produce something that you will like. If the problem lies with the people calling the shots, then each and every employee of that company, is better off working somewhere where their work and talents can be better appreciated, than a company that had them in crunch, as per Mark Darrah, for up to 12 years. That's not valuing your employees and, as they have said, per the Schreier article, the "success" of Inquisition was more of a problem, than a boon, because it prolonged an unsustainable work practice. Bioware has not been a good company to work for, in addition to not developing good products, for a while now. So if that is the best that Bioware can do, it is best for everyone involved that they are no more. I said 3 posts ago... IF that's what the "fans" want, that's what they'll ultimately get... You're the one who just doesn't get it. It's quite clearly what you want.
Now, I'm going to quite clearly say... we're done here. Bye... Sayonara... it's not been a pleasure talking with you.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 16:10:30 GMT
I said 3 posts ago... IF that's what the "fans" want, that's what they'll ultimately get... You're the one who just doesn't get it. Now, I'm going to quite clearly say... we're done here. Bye... Sayonara... it's not been a pleasure talking with you. If the point is to have a conversation to not examine another point of view, if an argument is to be made, for or against something, what are you here for?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 16:42:28 GMT
Whatever they produce will have to be much better executed than Anthem and better across the board than ME:A. Even then, fans of previous titles are not necessarily going to accept the direction Bioware go with a sequel. I've read people writing that Mass Effect went down hill after the original let alone by the time Andromeda came round! Mainly I hope that the technical and staffing problems have been addressed, allowing them to at least move forward with whatever they have envisaged. Personally, I am not in favour of Shepherd returning. Multiple reasons but in short I think that it has run its course. I am currently replaying ME:A (a bit of MP too) and the real downside for me is still the basic scripting of characters (Ryder included) and delivery of the story. On top of that I think there are minor issues across the board. It's not impossible to break the downward trend - the OT isn't without critique but with increasing pressure from world events and past failures you can't help but worry a little about how it turns out. I understand the downward trend can be broken, but the how is just as important. Like I've said, there are many studios that made good games that flopped. The Rage games, which I love very much and Wolfenstein: Youngblood weren't terrible games, but they didn't capture the market. Are there better games out there? Sure. Are there worse games out there? Absolutely. The problem with Dragon Age and Mass Effect is, primarily, the IPs themselves. What is Mass Effect to the gaming public? Can it exist outside of Shepard? Sure and at some point it would have to. But what is the prospect for the games right now? Dragon Age hasn't had a game in almost 7 years, it will be closer to 9, or even 10, by the time DA4 actually releases and nobody should expect Will Continue before 2025. That makes it 13 years since the last time Mass Effect was a relevant franchise and 8 years since it was last seen as a joke. Because that's how the public sees it. So when Bioware walks on the stage, figure of speech, to introduce Will Continue starring Will Continue of Ark 6, for example, who is actually excited for that? Are you? I'm not. I don't know who this person is and I can't say I'm intrigued to find out, because the expectation is another Freelancer, another Pathfinder, another Inquisitor and none of these protagonists were particularly memorable. Inquisitor is entirely forgettable, as is Freelancer and Pathfinder is only memorable for the memes associated with the game and the facial animations. Not in a positive light. And I can't see myself getting excited to play as any of them, for another round and wait for 2033 and later, for the next installment of Mass Effect to maybe get something better. Who is going to keep waiting on Bioware?
Even in the off chance that Bioware releases a game that is actually well received, early sales will suffer and that affects lifetime sales and that affects the studio's sustainability. If Bioware's plan is to rebuild their studio, by distancing themselves from what came before, keeping the DA and ME franchises is the wrong way to go about it. Retire the IPs and start something new. Halo has seen a number of games without the Chief, but the Chief always returns in some form and now, here's Halo Infinite. And sure, Shepard isn't the best protagonist to have ever existed, but he worked well with the crew and the crew elevated the IP. You also can't take advantage of the crew's full potential without Shepard. As I said in another post, can Bioware produce something equal or better than the trilogy cast? Absolutely? Is it likely? Absolutely not. We'll get a number of interactions that dwarf the content of the trilogy crew and it will be mostly useless, pointless, contrived, superfluous and terrible. And it's OK to give them a chance, but to make the argument that, with vastly more content available to them, the characters need 3 games to themselves, when the ME2 crew fared vastly better overall with a fraction of the content, is just ridiculous to me. Why would I want these people back, with all that similar quality content a second time, or even a first time? There is no incentive for the crowd to back it, because there will be no reward.
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Post by mgsmsc on Jul 9, 2021 18:05:35 GMT
Whatever they produce will have to be much better executed than Anthem and better across the board than ME:A. Even then, fans of previous titles are not necessarily going to accept the direction Bioware go with a sequel. I've read people writing that Mass Effect went down hill after the original let alone by the time Andromeda came round! Mainly I hope that the technical and staffing problems have been addressed, allowing them to at least move forward with whatever they have envisaged. Personally, I am not in favour of Shepherd returning. Multiple reasons but in short I think that it has run its course. I am currently replaying ME:A (a bit of MP too) and the real downside for me is still the basic scripting of characters (Ryder included) and delivery of the story. On top of that I think there are minor issues across the board. It's not impossible to break the downward trend - the OT isn't without critique but with increasing pressure from world events and past failures you can't help but worry a little about how it turns out. I understand the downward trend can be broken, but the how is just as important. Like I've said, there are many studios that made good games that flopped. The Rage games, which I love very much and Wolfenstein: Youngblood weren't terrible games, but they didn't capture the market. Are there better games out there? Sure. Are there worse games out there? Absolutely. The problem with Dragon Age and Mass Effect is, primarily, the IPs themselves. What is Mass Effect to the gaming public? Can it exist outside of Shepard? Sure and at some point it would have to. But what is the prospect for the games right now? Dragon Age hasn't had a game in almost 7 years, it will be closer to 9, or even 10, by the time DA4 actually releases and nobody should expect Will Continue before 2025. That makes it 13 years since the last time Mass Effect was a relevant franchise and 8 years since it was last seen as a joke. Because that's how the public sees it. So when Bioware walks on the stage, figure of speech, to introduce Will Continue starring Will Continue of Ark 6, for example, who is actually excited for that? Are you? I'm not. I don't know who this person is and I can't say I'm intrigued to find out, because the expectation is another Freelancer, another Pathfinder, another Inquisitor and none of these protagonists were particularly memorable. Inquisitor is entirely forgettable, as is Freelancer and Pathfinder is only memorable for the memes associated with the game and the facial animations. Not in a positive light. And I can't see myself getting excited to play as any of them, for another round and wait for 2033 and later, for the next installment of Mass Effect to maybe get something better. Who is going to keep waiting on Bioware?
Even in the off chance that Bioware releases a game that is actually well received, early sales will suffer and that affects lifetime sales and that affects the studio's sustainability. If Bioware's plan is to rebuild their studio, by distancing themselves from what came before, keeping the DA and ME franchises is the wrong way to go about it. Retire the IPs and start something new. Halo has seen a number of games without the Chief, but the Chief always returns in some form and now, here's Halo Infinite. And sure, Shepard isn't the best protagonist to have ever existed, but he worked well with the crew and the crew elevated the IP. You also can't take advantage of the crew's full potential without Shepard. As I said in another post, can Bioware produce something equal or better than the trilogy cast? Absolutely? Is it likely? Absolutely not. We'll get a number of interactions that dwarf the content of the trilogy crew and it will be mostly useless, pointless, contrived, superfluous and terrible. And it's OK to give them a chance, but to make the argument that, with vastly more content available to them, the characters need 3 games to themselves, when the ME2 crew fared vastly better overall with a fraction of the content, is just ridiculous to me. Why would I want these people back, with all that similar quality content a second time, or even a first time? There is no incentive for the crowd to back it, because there will be no reward.
I think you have a good point on the franchises themselves, elapsed time between releases and let downs somewhat boxing Bioware in. All those factors will no doubt have a knock on effect on initial sales no matter what the quality that gets churned out. As for the protagonist - I totally get that the brand recognition of Shepard and co may be a tempting proposition to shift a product. Perhaps Dragon Age has the easier task on this front. The Inquisitor can certainly be forgettable - in my case because I have played so many of them - but I take your point. Inky has a tendency to be a tad bland, for me like most of DAI he/she was good enough without really excelling in any particular area. I think the Paragon/Renegade system really helps to give Shep an edge as a personality and generally having a seemingly greater control on events helps too. For me, I believe that whatever is produced needs to stand on its own two feet storywise and that a degree of distance from the OT helps in this regard. It may be counterintuitive but maybe now Bioware has recommitted to the SP experience is a time to play the long game - appreciate that perhaps there will be a struggle to rehabilitate the brand and think about the next 2 or 3 titles in a franchise. Regrettably the world does not seem to be going in this direction - words like strategy and investment are not popular especially when you haven't managed to meet recent expectations. I would stress again the hope that staff/technical side has improved - I feel that it is more than half the battle in making something worthwhile. ME2 is still my favourite of the OT - not because I find it particularly excellent in any regard but it feels the most polished generally. Edit - inappropriate use of 'know.'
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 9, 2021 19:33:03 GMT
For me, I believe that whatever is produced needs to stand on its own two feet storywise and that a degree of distance from the OT helps in this regard. I don't have any faith that it will, to be honest.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mgsmsc on Jul 9, 2021 20:01:55 GMT
For me, I believe that whatever is produced needs to stand on its own two feet storywise and that a degree of distance from the OT helps in this regard. I don't have any faith that it will, to be honest. Well, you managed to get a chuckle out of me over Bioware's impending demise so it can't be all bad.
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