mikoto
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Big fan of the Dragon Age series. Usually enjoy a good lore discussion.
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Big fan of the Dragon Age series. Usually enjoy a good lore discussion.
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Post by mikoto on Oct 8, 2021 22:43:01 GMT
A bit late to the discussion but hardened Leliana is my Divine of choice. She doesn't enforce the Circles on mages, she includes other races into the Chantry and is politically savvy and tough enough to ensure she gets her way. (For the most part.)
I've gotten hardened Leliana in three of my four playthroughs and one softened one. Any other Divine is unacceptable to me.
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cyberpunker
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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https://web.archive.org/web/20160730023122im_/http://orig00.deviantart.net/0f5b/f/2015/290/e/e/untitled_5_by_lungsal-d9ddqkw.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by cyberpunker on Nov 1, 2021 4:36:21 GMT
Man/Adaar Warrior - Vivienne (Conservative) Man/Trevelyan Rogue - Cassandra (Reform) Woman/Cadash Rogue - Softened Leliana (Liberal) Woman/Lavellan Mage - Hardened Leliana (Ultra Liberal)
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ergates
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by ergates on Dec 7, 2021 14:36:41 GMT
I enjoy the fact that I always harden Leliana in Origins, but then go out of my way to soften her in Inquisition. It's not even a contest in my opinion, Softened Leliana is clearly the best choice.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Dec 7, 2021 23:11:22 GMT
I enjoy the fact that I always harden Leliana in Origins, but then go out of my way to soften her in Inquisition. It's not even a contest in my opinion, Softened Leliana is clearly the best choice. Exactly. And given that things turn out so well in that outcome I have to imagine that is what bioware considered the "best" ending. I do agree that in DAO I liked her to be hardened but soft in DAI. I think it's because in DAI a hardened leliana seems like a sociopath. I mean in DAO she accepts that she is a killer but she seems to be more "I can do this when I need too and shouldn't feel ashamed." IN DAI it's "Kill everyone who doesn't agree with everything I say and think." It becomes disturbing instead of dark humour like in DAO.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 8, 2021 8:33:03 GMT
And given that things turn out so well in that outcome I have to imagine that is what bioware considered the "best" ending. Which is presumably why they made it so difficult to achieve if you properly role play your character. With me it always hinged on that one decision at Haven, when I wasn't yet leading the organisation. I could understand encouraging her to kill her agent might lock you in but why did just standing back and observing have the same outcome? I was a Dalish spy who was meant to be observing how humans did things. As I say, I wasn't yet the leader, just one member of the team who happened to be good at closing rifts. It made sense to me that my character wouldn't interfere in what Leliana was doing but just try and learn from the experience myself. Why would Leliana be influenced by me at that stage anyway? The decision was her responsibility as Spymaster, based on her knowledge and experience in the role, and yet just because I tell her to spare the agent she does so? Then I discovered it was this decision that meant I would not get an inspired Leliana, even though every other decision, once I had settled into my role of leader, should have resulted in that outcome. To make it even more ridiculous, in her personal quest I actually ordered her, as leader of the Inquisition, to spare the other woman's life and Leliana ignored me. It was at this point I started to question whether my backing her for Divine was such a good idea. So my preferred Divine was inspired Leliana, even though it seemed too good to be true but failing that I preferred Cassandra. Vivienne should never have been an option; mages are not allowed in positions of power, that is why the children of nobility lose any possibility of inheriting land and titles. Yet in contravention of the entire history of the southern Chantry, just because she has a few political allies, the surviving senior clergy vote in a mage. Not surprisingly Dorian found it hilarious. Really none of them was appropriate and if there were so few clergy left that only those three were considered suitable the Chantry was pretty much finished anyway.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Dec 8, 2021 13:12:02 GMT
And given that things turn out so well in that outcome I have to imagine that is what bioware considered the "best" ending. Which is presumably why they made it so difficult to achieve if you properly role play your character. With me it always hinged on that one decision at Haven, when I wasn't yet leading the organisation. I could understand encouraging her to kill her agent might lock you in but why did just standing back and observing have the same outcome? I was a Dalish spy who was meant to be observing how humans did things. As I say, I wasn't yet the leader, just one member of the team who happened to be good at closing rifts. It made sense to me that my character wouldn't interfere in what Leliana was doing but just try and learn from the experience myself. Why would Leliana be influenced by me at that stage anyway? The decision was her responsibility as Spymaster, based on her knowledge and experience in the role, and yet just because I tell her to spare the agent she does so? Then I discovered it was this decision that meant I would not get an inspired Leliana, even though every other decision, once I had settled into my role of leader, should have resulted in that outcome. To make it even more ridiculous, in her personal quest I actually ordered her, as leader of the Inquisition, to spare the other woman's life and Leliana ignored me. It was at this point I started to question whether my backing her for Divine was such a good idea. So my preferred Divine was inspired Leliana, even though it seemed too good to be true but failing that I preferred Cassandra. Vivienne should never have been an option; mages are not allowed in positions of power, that is why the children of nobility lose any possibility of inheriting land and titles. Yet in contravention of the entire history of the southern Chantry, just because she has a few political allies, the surviving senior clergy vote in a mage. Not surprisingly Dorian found it hilarious. Really none of them was appropriate and if there were so few clergy left that only those three were considered suitable the Chantry was pretty much finished anyway. There was no "obvious" choices for divine. However I agree that Vivienne made no sense. You are putting a mage in one of the most powerful positions in Thedas in the non agic chantry. Leliana and cassandra were right next to the divine for years and played a part in things so that wasn't too out there. But vivienne..no. As for that one leliana decision I agree that shouldn't be what locks it in. However When she becomes a hardened leliana she does say she has done too much to stop now. So it makes some sense. However it shouldn't automatically lock you into a hardened leliana. However I think leliana is the only chance the chantry has of surviving since she opens it up to so many more people. I mean elves make up what ten to twenty five percent of the population and yet they can't even join the chantry at a position at the very bottom?
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mattjamho
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Post by mattjamho on Dec 10, 2021 8:07:11 GMT
I think the Vivienne choice was there to show how much the world had changed, and how desperate the clerics were to consider her. Also consider, while the Divine seat was empty, the Inquistor was arguably the highest power in southern Thedas and they could be a Qunari/Elven Mage given the divine monkier ‘Herald of Andraste’ despite their race and magic. Following that, if Andraste’s Herald and most powerful person in southern Thedas supports a candidate, it’s not a stretch that the clerics would follow suit.
I don’t think Vivienne makes the most sense, as others have mentioned Leliana and Cassandra as holy woman and the Divine’s Hands do. But I DO like the option of Vivienne, especially when you consider she seems the most outrageous choice but is actually the most conservative. Story wise I really enjoy it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 10, 2021 19:45:07 GMT
Following that, if Andraste’s Herald and most powerful person in southern Thedas supports a candidate, it’s not a stretch that the clerics would follow suit. Funny thing was, when I got Vivienne as Divine it was a total surprise. I had supported Cassandra for Divine and missed the fact that Vivienne was an option. Then at the celebration party there was Vivienne planning for her new role. I was left thinking "How in the hell did that happen?" Okay, my Herald was an elf but they weren't a mage. As I say, Dorian found it hilarious and I did like to speculate on how the Archon and the Black Divine greeted the news. I'm sure Vivienne would have found great amusement in writing to them personally to inform them of her appointment.
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michaeln7
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by michaeln7 on Dec 18, 2021 21:28:17 GMT
I go for Inspired Leliana, then Cassandra, then Steeled Leliana.
I'm not afraid to say that Cassandra is basically everything I want in a woman. She is, bar none, my favorite romance in any game.
I don't dislike Steeled Leliana, and I completely empathize with anyone who picks that option as Divine. I just see it more as a surrender to pragmatism, which, while understandable and even effective at times... Something precious is lost with Steeled Leliana.
But having Inspired Leliana become Divine just feels like the most fitting "third act" to her story. She starts hopeful (Origins), and my Warden Amell (human male mage) helps her out when faced with trial. Now, in Inquisition, my Inquisitior Trevelyan (another human male mage) helps her out again when faced with tribulation.
Given how magic is "deemed" to be from the Maker (however you want to perceive that), I feel a bit like the Maker's hand in helping Leliana achieve her destiny across the series.
A bold claim, to be sure, but a bit of head-canon can do wondrous things.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Dec 18, 2021 22:54:26 GMT
I go for Inspired Leliana, then Cassandra, then Steeled Leliana. I'm not afraid to say that Cassandra is basically everything I want in a woman. She is, bar none, my favorite romance in any game. I don't dislike Steeled Leliana, and I completely empathize with anyone who picks that option as Divine. I just see it more as a surrender to pragmatism, which, while understandable and even effective at times... Something precious is lost with Steeled Leliana. But having Inspired Leliana become Divine just feels like the most fitting "third act" to her story. She starts hopeful (Origins), and my Warden Amell (human male mage) helps her out when faced with trial. Now, in Inquisition, my Inquisitior Trevelyan (another human male mage) helps her out again when faced with tribulation. Given how magic is "deemed" to be from the Maker (however you want to perceive that), I feel a bit like the Maker's hand in helping Leliana achieve her destiny across the series. A bold claim, to be sure, but a bit of head-canon can do wondrous things. I like this.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Feb 11, 2022 16:23:17 GMT
I go with Cassandra. She seems to be the moderate one of the bunch. Leliana wants to force a lot of change faster than Thedas is ready for it and Vivienne goes on a power trip. With Cassandra change comes at a pace.
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Fortifying everything.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 11, 2022 18:57:49 GMT
Funny thing, I actually don't remember who, or who I choose most, from those options.
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AngryFrozenWater
N5
Sir Nose D'VoidOfFunk
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Feb 12, 2022 3:08:41 GMT
Cassandra, she seems the most balanced to me. Vivienne is too harsh. Leliana clearly needs therapy. My thoughts exactly.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2022 13:06:31 GMT
I go with Cassandra. She seems to be the moderate one of the bunch. Leliana wants to force a lot of change faster than Thedas is ready for it and Vivienne goes on a power trip. With Cassandra change comes at a pace. There's no better chance for a radical change than after such a crisis, chaos. If someone wants real changes, then should go for Leliana – Cassandra is a wasted opportunity.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 12, 2022 22:06:22 GMT
Cassandra, she seems the most balanced to me. Vivienne is too harsh. Leliana clearly needs therapy. My thoughts exactly. I don't think the hardening/softening gimmick has done Leliana any favors. One time was okay, but having it twice makes her seem... unstable.
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DragonEffect
N2
Pathfinding my way through life.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by DragonEffect on Feb 13, 2022 0:53:28 GMT
Never Vivienne. She doesn't make the necessary reforms in the Chantry structure, choosing to preserve the old Circle of Magi+Templar Order dynamic, which is proven to be flawed and at the centre of the problems that culminated in the Mage-Tenplar war. If she's Divine, we can expect the same problems that caused the Inquisition to rise in the first place to happen once again. Even Cullen, a templar who never strayed from the Order's principles, acknowledges the need for reforms in both the Circle and the Order, and helps to find a solution by proposing - when asked by the Inquisitor - that society puts mages talents to use, such as employing them as healers. There's even a mage fraternity that argues for mages to earn money from their talents, be them summoning spells, healing, concocting potions, anything magic-related, so that they may achieve independence without affronting the Chantry and posing a threat to society. But Vivienne is concerned with power and only power alone. So long as she's on the throne and mages are under control, she doesn't care about anything else.
Between Leliana and Cassandra, Leliana is better suited to play the Game of Thrones, so she might survive longer and fare better on the Sunburst Throne than Cassandra. However, there are two problems with electing her Divine for me: a hardened Leliana transforms the Chantry into a bloodbath. Her judgement is impaired by her everlasting internal conflict, fueled by her perpetually unresolved crisis of faith and she outright kills anyone she perceives as a threat. As for unhardened Leliana, she's still mentally unstable due to her inner conflict between being a bard and her strong idealistic nature. So she ends up not making the necessary reforms within the Chantry, carrying out a revolution instead, making so many changes to the point people may find this "new Chantry" unrecognizable. So to me, her actions compromise the Chantry as an institution.
So my Divine of choice is always Cassandra, who will undoubtedly be advised by both Leliana and the Inquisitor in the days to come. She'll have both a net of agents and spies (thanks, Leliana) and the Inquisitor's only hand at her disposal. Unskilled at the Game as she is, she's still the most stable option of the three, with her down-to-earth views on what the Chantry needs moving forward. She's the one to talk about reforms, and feasible ones, not get lost on idealisms or turn a blind eye to the corruption within. Plus, we see how involved she is with anything she devotes herself to. She's the one leading the Inquisition alongside the Inquisitor. She refused to let Roderick chain the Herald and take her to prison. She helped Cullen with his addiction. She advises the Inquisitor on many subjects. She accompanies them on their early missions. She faced her former boss and sought justice for her former Seeker colleagues. She's committed, a capable leader and resilient enough to endure attacks and criticism during her mandate as Divine. With Leliana's help to navigate the treacherous waters of the Game, she may not be ideal due to her brash personality, but to me she's still the perfect choice of the trio.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 13, 2022 2:05:04 GMT
Vivienne is an anomaly here.
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