vit246
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Post by vit246 on May 19, 2017 6:07:52 GMT
She doesn't just talk about other mages being a danger, she most emphatically includes herself, and a Mage Inquisitor. I don't believe her when she says this.
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Post by arvaarad on May 20, 2017 15:15:51 GMT
I just had a realization when reading back Vivienne's dialogue with Solas. She's trolling him. She's a practiced player of the Game. She knows how to use people's emotions to squeeze more information out of them. So, while on some level she believes the stuff she says to Solas, she's much more antagonistic than she is when sharing those beliefs with, say, a mage inquisitor. Around Solas, she exaggerates her beliefs, ever so slightly, to maximally annoy him. Why? Because he reveals more information when he's annoyed. He does it with low approval inquisitors too. It's his biggest achilles heel, when it comes to keeping his secret. This could be the reason why, of all the party members, Vivienne seems the closest to figuring Solas out. Well, Cole knows more, but Cole is cheating. "I don't know what to make of Solas. So much knowledge and so little personal history... I find that... peculiar, don't you?" Also notice that she's much more complimentary of his knowledge when he's not in the room.
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Post by mattjamho on May 22, 2017 0:20:03 GMT
I just had a realization when reading back Vivienne's dialogue with Solas. She's trolling him. She's a practiced player of the Game. She knows how to use people's emotions to squeeze more information out of them. So, while on some level she believes the stuff she says to Solas, she's much more antagonistic than she is when sharing those beliefs with, say, a mage inquisitor. Around Solas, she exaggerates her beliefs, ever so slightly, to maximally annoy him. Why? Because he reveals more information when he's annoyed. He does it with low approval inquisitors too. It's his biggest achilles heel, when it comes to keeping his secret. This could be the reason why, of all the party members, Vivienne seems the closest to figuring Solas out. Well, Cole knows more, but Cole is cheating. "I don't know what to make of Solas. So much knowledge and so little personal history... I find that... peculiar, don't you?" Also notice that she's much more complimentary of his knowledge when he's not in the room. She is one of the only characters in game to realize Solas is more than he appears. As you pointed out she is hardly ever complimentary to people to their face (shes the same with Dorian, when she remarks on his fab fashion sense ), but one thing that Vivienne isn't is stupid, and definitely sees more than just 'an unwashed apostate hobo'. Vivienne and Solas have some of the best banter imo, obviously when they're throwing barbs at each other, but also when they're debating the place of magic and mages and demons in the world.
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Post by Catilina on May 22, 2017 0:57:13 GMT
I just had a realization when reading back Vivienne's dialogue with Solas. She's trolling him. She's a practiced player of the Game. She knows how to use people's emotions to squeeze more information out of them. So, while on some level she believes the stuff she says to Solas, she's much more antagonistic than she is when sharing those beliefs with, say, a mage inquisitor. Around Solas, she exaggerates her beliefs, ever so slightly, to maximally annoy him. Why? Because he reveals more information when he's annoyed. He does it with low approval inquisitors too. It's his biggest achilles heel, when it comes to keeping his secret. This could be the reason why, of all the party members, Vivienne seems the closest to figuring Solas out. Well, Cole knows more, but Cole is cheating. "I don't know what to make of Solas. So much knowledge and so little personal history... I find that... peculiar, don't you?" Also notice that she's much more complimentary of his knowledge when he's not in the room. She is one of the only characters in game to realize Solas is more than he appears. As you pointed out she is hardly ever complimentary to people to their face (shes the same with Dorian, when she remarks on his fab fashion sense ), but one thing that Vivienne isn't is stupid, and definitely sees more than just 'an unwashed apostate hobo'. Vivienne and Solas have some of the best banter imo, obviously when they're throwing barbs at each other, but also when they're debating the place of magic and mages and demons in the world. Vivienne knows nothing about the spirits/demons, only what the Chantry teach about them, and fear from them. Why does she talk about them? She does not even care about other opinions. She's just bigot and narrow-minded, and as such a person: dangerous.
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Post by mattjamho on May 22, 2017 1:09:16 GMT
She is one of the only characters in game to realize Solas is more than he appears. As you pointed out she is hardly ever complimentary to people to their face (shes the same with Dorian, when she remarks on his fab fashion sense ), but one thing that Vivienne isn't is stupid, and definitely sees more than just 'an unwashed apostate hobo'. Vivienne and Solas have some of the best banter imo, obviously when they're throwing barbs at each other, but also when they're debating the place of magic and mages and demons in the world. Vivienne knows nothing about the spirits/demons, only what the Chantry teach about them, and fear from them. I see her just bigot and narrow minded. She's dangerous. The Chantry teaches the danger of demons and spirits because they are dangerous. The Chantry are fearful for good reason. Why would they promote common folk and unskilled practitioners dealing with them? The scope for abuse of power, and unleashing something they couldn't control would be astronomical. Vivienne is a product of her upbringing, but without dealing with the spirit world, is she really missing out on anything? She knows enough about them to protect herself from them. She is one of the most skilled mages in southern Thedas. Personally, I'm all for learning and understanding the spirits more. I'd love to see Tevinter spirit binding in game, or meet a Rivaini Seer, but I can also understand Vivienne's view point very easily. What she says about magic holds true to dealing with spirits and demons. Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous, anybody who forgets this truth gets burned.
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Post by Catilina on May 22, 2017 1:30:48 GMT
Vivienne knows nothing about the spirits/demons, only what the Chantry teach about them, and fear from them. I see her just bigot and narrow minded. She's dangerous. The Chantry teaches the danger of demons and spirits because they are dangerous. The Chantry are fearful for good reason. Why would they promote common folk and unskilled practitioners dealing with them? The scope for abuse of power, and unleashing something they couldn't control would be astronomical. Vivienne is a product of her upbringing, but without dealing with the spirit world, is she really missing out on anything? She knows enough about them to protect herself from them. She is one of the most skilled mages in southern Thedas. Personally, I'm all for learning and understanding the spirits more. I'd love to see Tevinter spirit binding in game, or meet a Rivaini Seer, but I can also understand Vivienne's view point very easily. What she says about magic holds true to dealing with spirits and demons. Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous, anybody who forgets this truth gets burned. Huh! So deep! I agree, easy to understand Vivienne's viewpoint, because that so simple. There is some truth in, of course, just as in every simple folk wisdom, no more. And what is REALLY dangerous: No need to learn because knowledge is dangerous – sounds like a Chantry parrot. (Who said, that she is one of the most skilled mages?)
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Post by mattjamho on May 22, 2017 1:46:28 GMT
It doesn't need to be deep for it to be correct. It's a simple truth.
The games have always shown the misuse and danger of working with magic and spirits. The whole concept of mages in the game universe comes from David Gaider's observation about how mages in other games could be so easily trusted and accepted, while have devistating powers. They introduced the tie to demons and the fade and possession to give a obvious, and tangible, fear of mages.
Look at Merrill or Anders. Both of them thought they knew what they were doing. Two highly capable mages corrupted through their dealings with spirits. If powerful mages are susceptible to demons whims, weak ones are in far more danger, and are far more frequent.
There are far more examples of things going wrong than right when working with spirits.
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Post by Catilina on May 22, 2017 2:09:04 GMT
It doesn't need to be deep for it to be correct. It's a simple truth. The games have always shown the misuse and danger of working with magic and spirits. The whole concept of mages in the game universe comes from David Gaider's observation about how mages in other games could be so easily trusted and accepted, while have devistating powers. They introduced the tie to demons and the fade and possession to give a obvious, and tangible, fear of mages. Look at Merrill or Anders. Both of them thought they knew what they were doing. Two highly capable mages corrupted through their dealings with spirits. If powerful mages are susceptible to demons whims, weak ones are in far more danger, and are far more frequent. There are far more examples of things going wrong than right when working with spirits. I see David Gaider's goal, and this is a nice and interesting conflict between the freedom and safety. (But writing is not consistent. Of course not, because this is hard.) I don't see any problem with Anders and Merrill. Merrill's not possessed, and Anders a good example, that this can work. He never abused his power, just as Merrill. Marethari was benevolent, but foolish. She risked her clan for Merrill, not Merrill. Anders can live with his spirit in peace, if Hawke doesn't crush him, and incites hostility in Anders toward Justice. And someone had to start the war. I think, their fusion was a really good idea, and risky, but effective. (Of course, this depend on the aspect) Unfortunately, Vivienne was very sorry that the Mages in the Orlesian court could no longer be fashionable accessories. I think this was her biggest problem with the revolution.
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Post by mattjamho on May 22, 2017 11:20:08 GMT
(Who said, that she is one of the most skilled mages?) Vivienne was one of the youngest full-fledged mages in Circle history, and considered an exceptional scholar. When Celene took the throne of Orlais, she petitioned the Circles for the most knowledgeable mage in the empire, and Vivienne's name was put forward. She was elected as First Enchanter at one of Thedas most renowned Circles, at a young enough age to cause a scandal. It's also brought up in game how capable she is; Blackwall commenting that he wouldn't stand a chance against her one-on-one. The Iron Bull compares fighting along side Vivienne as fighting along side a Quanri dreadnought. Not only that, but she is in the Inquisitors core ciricle, the best Thedas has to offer. I'd say it's pretty safe to assume she is one of the best mages we have met. Merrill didn't need to be possessed to be dangerous, even just dealing with the demon put her and those around her in very real danger, and has potential to cause a lot of suffering. Worst case scenario is that Marethari is dead, and the clan turn on Merrill for what she brought about. Even if that hadn't happened, the most obvious outcome would be that the demon would have gained access into the physical world and made Merrill it's first victim, and would probably have taken out the whole Alienage. Giving Merrill the Arulin'Holm was a bad call. Anders doesn't live in peace with Justice at all. Turning on the mage Ella is proof of that, without Hawke's intervention, Anders kills her. Justice's bond with Anders is the catalyst to him destroying Kirkwall's Chantry and killing hundreds, while his actions condemn all of the Circle mages to death. His fusion with Justice is a terrible idea, Anders even questions this himself multiple times. Even if that is what Vivienne thought, mages are still seen as an accessory by the court. Morrigan isn't there by chance, she takes advantage of Vivienne's absence, taking her position in court as Celene's adviser.
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Post by Catilina on May 22, 2017 12:32:53 GMT
(Who said, that she is one of the most skilled mages?) Vivienne was one of the youngest full-fledged mages in Circle history, and considered an exceptional scholar. When Celene took the throne of Orlais, she petitioned the Circles for the most knowledgeable mage in the empire, and Vivienne's name was put forward. She was elected as First Enchanter at one of Thedas most renowned Circles, at a young enough age to cause a scandal. It's also brought up in game how capable she is; Blackwall commenting that he wouldn't stand a chance against her one-on-one. The Iron Bull compares fighting along side Vivienne as fighting along side a Quanri dreadnought. Not only that, but she is in the Inquisitors core ciricle, the best Thedas has to offer. I'd say it's pretty safe to assume she is one of the best mages we have met. Merrill didn't need to be possessed to be dangerous, even just dealing with the demon put her and those around her in very real danger, and has potential to cause a lot of suffering. Worst case scenario is that Marethari is dead, and the clan turn on Merrill for what she brought about. Even if that hadn't happened, the most obvious outcome would be that the demon would have gained access into the physical world and made Merrill it's first victim, and would probably have taken out the whole Alienage. Giving Merrill the Arulin'Holm was a bad call. Anders doesn't live in peace with Justice at all. Turning on the mage Ella is proof of that, without Hawke's intervention, Anders kills her. Justice's bond with Anders is the catalyst to him destroying Kirkwall's Chantry and killing hundreds, while his actions condemn all of the Circle mages to death. His fusion with Justice is a terrible idea, Anders even questions this himself multiple times. Even if that is what Vivienne thought, mages are still seen as an accessory by the court. Morrigan isn't there by chance, she takes advantage of Vivienne's absence, taking her position in court as Celene's adviser. Vivienne just an ambitious and chantry-educated mage. I do not see anything special about her, only that her manners is terrible, her behavior is childish with this furniture thing. Merrill plays a dangerous game, but Hawke's group could handle this. This is why she asked for the help. Marethari was a nice idiot, she was who jeopardized her clan, not Merrill. Anders did search for peaceful solution for more than seven years. Justice seems a patient spirit. I think, the Chantry explosion wasn't a bad idea. Possible there are another solutions, but at least, this was effective, the rebellion started. (How I waited for something similar since my Circle Origin! I admit, I was impressed.) Ella's and Anders' short story's cases only shows, that really hard to live with a spirit (and from Justice viewpoint: with a human, out of Fade). But they are succeed, after Ella, never happened similar thing. And of course, Anders was terrified, he always concerned about, that he corrupted Justice. So everything just depend on the viewpoint.
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Post by opuspace on May 24, 2017 1:36:09 GMT
I do think Vivienne has some good points, problem is that she's making decisions according to her own experience and her experience is way too unique to be applied to the rest of her peers. It's weird to say this, but she comes off as too exceptional to really understand that not everyone can make it with as much a disadvantage as she might have started with.
So while I have respect for her advice and admire what she has endured and that she would willingly stand on the front lines instead of being cowardly, I would not agree with her decisions as they're too narrow to last happily.
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Post by mattjamho on May 26, 2017 10:54:18 GMT
She definitely has a very narrow 'I did it so why can't you?'.
I think Vivienne's big issue is that she has worked very hard all her life to achieve what she has, and sees the other mages demanding the same for free.
In reality, the mages just want freedom, but how exactly they'll achieve that in a population that is heavily weary and suspicious of them, is another question.
I think the mages need the circle, but more so how it's used in Tevinter, as a school and academy, that they are free to come and go from. I do think it should be mandorty, so they can learn to control their powers properly.
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 11:05:27 GMT
She definitely has a very narrow 'I did it so why can't you?'. I think Vivienne's big issue is that she has worked very hard all her life to achieve what she has, and sees the other mages demanding the same for free. In reality, the mages just want freedom, but how exactly they'll achieve that in a population that is heavily weary and suspicious of them, is another question. I think the mages need the circle, but more so how it's used in Tevinter, as a school and academy, that they are free to come and go from. I do think it should be mandorty, so they can learn to control their powers properly. Yes, the education is necessary. The Circles would be very nice as education and magical research centers. But Vivienne seems wants to live closed in a Tower, under Templars supervision. I would be glad to give her this favour. Probably would be an expensive fun, but would worth it to see what happy is she...
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Post by mattjamho on May 26, 2017 17:22:46 GMT
She definitely has a very narrow 'I did it so why can't you?'. I think Vivienne's big issue is that she has worked very hard all her life to achieve what she has, and sees the other mages demanding the same for free. In reality, the mages just want freedom, but how exactly they'll achieve that in a population that is heavily weary and suspicious of them, is another question. I think the mages need the circle, but more so how it's used in Tevinter, as a school and academy, that they are free to come and go from. I do think it should be mandorty, so they can learn to control their powers properly. Yes, the education is necessary. The Circles would be very nice as education and magical research centers. But Vivienne seems wants to live closed in a Tower, under Templars supervision. I would be glad to give her this favour. Probably would be an expensive fun, but would worth it to see what happy is she... She doesn't trust her fellow mages, I wouldn't say it's unwarranted.
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 17:26:11 GMT
Yes, the education is necessary. The Circles would be very nice as education and magical research centers. But Vivienne seems wants to live closed in a Tower, under Templars supervision. I would be glad to give her this favour. Probably would be an expensive fun, but would worth it to see what happy is she... She doesn't trust her fellow mages, I wouldn't say it's unwarranted. I do not trust anyone, but I do not want to close everyone.
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Post by sageoflife on May 31, 2017 20:26:31 GMT
The sad thing for me is that I was initially looking forward to Vivienne as a character. Wynne gave us the Aequetarian perspective and Anders gave us the Libertarian perspective, so I thought seeing the Loyalist perspective could be interesting even if I ended up disagreeing with it.
What I ended up getting was this arrogant, condescending, willfully-ignorant, intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, classist snob who doesn't know nearly as much as she thinks she does and is willing to throw everyone else under the bus, to the point of starting a war just so she can have her way. She embodies all the worst stereotypes of the Loyalists and what makes me hate people in the real world.
I hope the next game gives me the option to have her assassinated so she can't interfere with the College of Enchanters and Leliana's reforms.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 9, 2017 21:13:49 GMT
I love her, but she hates me. I don't agree with anything she says, but she looks fantastic with all her outfits and her banter is some of the best. Gotta say the woman's got style.
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Post by tacsear on Jul 9, 2017 21:17:14 GMT
I love her she is like a walking fortres made of ice, doesn't take shit from anyone. Though I don't aggree with everything she says her intellect and charisma makes up for her viewpoints.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 9, 2017 21:33:38 GMT
I love her she is like a walking fortres made of ice, doesn't take shit from anyone. Though I don't aggree with everything she says her intellect and charisma makes up for her viewpoints. I like her in the Fade, when loses her charisma, and just fear. She would be very useful for leaving with the Nightmare. I love the poor Ser Mustache... ...and who know? Perhaps she would be able to annoy to death the Nightmare to death with her "darling" "my dear, you look terrible"... Bonus:
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Post by tacsear on Jul 9, 2017 22:24:10 GMT
I love her she is like a walking fortres made of ice, doesn't take shit from anyone. Though I don't aggree with everything she says her intellect and charisma makes up for her viewpoints. I like her in the Fade, when loses her charisma, and just fear. She would be very useful for leaving with the Nightmare. I love the poor Ser Mustache... ...and who know? Perhaps she would be able to annoy to death the Nightmare to death with her "darling" "my dear, you look terrible"... Bonus: Oh no if someone gets to be left behind in the Fade, it's Blackwall.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 9, 2017 22:29:57 GMT
I like her in the Fade, when loses her charisma, and just fear. She would be very useful for leaving with the Nightmare. I love the poor Ser Mustache... ...and who know? Perhaps she would be able to annoy to death the Nightmare to death with her "darling" "my dear, you look terrible"... Bonus: Oh no if someone gets to be left behind in the Fade, it's Blackwall. Hey! I like Blackwall!
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Post by opuspace on Jul 10, 2017 9:03:34 GMT
Oh no if someone gets to be left behind in the Fade, it's Blackwall. Hey! I like Blackwall! Me too! Come on, there's worse characters than he
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jul 12, 2017 5:29:16 GMT
Ditch Solas. Solve two problems at once!
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Post by fylimar on Jul 21, 2017 20:08:13 GMT
I have to mention again, what a great job Indira Varma did with va Viv. I just love her voice
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Post by dawnold on Jul 22, 2017 3:20:49 GMT
Yeah I really enjoyed her performance as well. Her character felt quite real. There were a few times I thought she was a bit harsh but she wouldn't be the character we love if she sugar-coated everything, everytime. I'll need to hear the rest of her free-roam banter with Blackwall, they had a rough start but I'm going to guess it only gets more heated (I hope not but I'll be prepared for the worst).
I've never watched Game of Thrones before but I was really surprised to find out that Indira is a part of that show. I also heard some folks say that she is in MEA too?!?! Things for me to look forward to.
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