dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2022 13:29:34 GMT
Hey, hey! The Reapers made sense when Sovereign was telling its story! It was later that things got messy. Two games later. Don't you mean one game later (ME2)? No. I think everything made sense in ME2. Sovereign said each Reaper was a nation. If you take it further and see that the Reapers harvested other races to make a new Reaper then we see how those "nations" came to be. Things got messy when ME3 decided they were just puppets for the Catalyst. Or so everyone who thinks they deserve to survive beyond the war would have us believe so that they're actually "innocent". So either they're puppets or they're evil. Either way, I don't want things that can wipe out a galaxy full of races at will is anything I want hanging around. Under no circumstances - be it Control or Synthesis - would I ever look at a Reaper and think "They're not so bad. Look how they're helping to rebuild everything they destroyed! Even though they're literally powered by the goo of 20,000 races, it's all good. There's no chance they'd ever become authoritarian dictators who would wipe out any 'problems' they run into while trying to preserve order." smh. I cannot fathom how anyone can conclude that saving them is a viable option.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 18, 2022 13:34:28 GMT
Don't you mean one game later (ME2)? No. I think everything made sense in ME2. Sovereign said each Reaper was a nation. If you take it further and see that the Reapers harvested other races to make a new Reaper then we see how those "nations" came to be. Things got messy when ME3 decided they were just puppets for the Catalyst. Or so everyone who thinks they deserve to survive beyond the war would have us believe so that they're actually "innocent". So either they're puppets or they're evil. Either way, I don't want things that can wipe out a galaxy full of races at will is anything I want hanging around. Under no circumstances - be it Control or Synthesis - would I ever look at a Reaper and think "They're not so bad. Look how they're helping to rebuild everything they destroyed! Even though they're literally powered by the goo of 20,000 races, it's all good. There's no chance they'd ever become authoritarian dictators who would wipe out any 'problems' they run into while trying to preserve order." smh. I cannot fathom how anyone can conclude that saving them is a viable option. What about making that human Reaper? What was the point of making it before their invasion of the MW. Wouldn't it make more sense to build it during or after the invasion.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2022 17:07:05 GMT
What about making that human Reaper? What was the point of making it before their invasion of the MW. Wouldn't it make more sense to build it during or after the invasion. I don't think so. After the invasion the humans mostly get slaughtered. And what better way to get rid of the rest of the humans than by using a human Reaper? They thought they were coming sooner than the did. Six months, which is true whether or not you played Arrival (outcome is the same, Shep just may not have been involved), is how it turned out. They thought they were coming pretty much right away.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 18, 2022 23:37:03 GMT
What about making that human Reaper? What was the point of making it before their invasion of the MW. Wouldn't it make more sense to build it during or after the invasion. I believe it was done to get a head start. Why I say that? The IFF and the derelict reaper. The reaper was disabled 37 million years ago. It houses an IFF. Why would it need one? I would say it not only for the Omega-3 relay, but for the Citadel relay as well. What was the purpose of the collectors before ME2? I'm sure it didn't take 50,000 years to build their base and ship. So what were they doing the whole time? I believe they were waiting for the reapers to show up. They would be a distraction while the reapers can focus on doing their harvest stuff. Divide and conquer. Since Shepard destroyed the base and 3 eyes, the reapers had to do it the hard way. Had Cerberus no brought Shepardback, what would have happened? The reapers win, but before that? The collectors would continue abducting colonists since the Alliance weren't doing much of anything. It's likely 3 eyes would have been completed after the reapers showed up. I would guess the same for previous cycles. Insuannon were turned into workers to start processing protheans. Then the previous cycle workers were processing Insuannon and so on.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 19, 2022 13:33:27 GMT
What about making that human Reaper? What was the point of making it before their invasion of the MW. Wouldn't it make more sense to build it during or after the invasion. I don't think so. After the invasion the humans mostly get slaughtered. And what better way to get rid of the rest of the humans than by using a human Reaper? They thought they were coming sooner than the did. Six months, which is true whether or not you played Arrival (outcome is the same, Shep just may not have been involved), is how it turned out. They thought they were coming pretty much right away. Then shouldn't the Collectors have been at work while Saren was working for Sovereign? I mean, if Shep failed, the Reapers would have invaded even earlier.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 19, 2022 13:34:31 GMT
Don't you mean one game later (ME2)? No. I think everything made sense in ME2. Sovereign said each Reaper was a nation. If you take it further and see that the Reapers harvested other races to make a new Reaper then we see how those "nations" came to be . Things got messy when ME3 decided they were just puppets for the Catalyst. Or so everyone who thinks they deserve to survive beyond the war would have us believe so that they're actually "innocent". So either they're puppets or they're evil. Either way, I don't want things that can wipe out a galaxy full of races at will is anything I want hanging around. Under no circumstances - be it Control or Synthesis - would I ever look at a Reaper and think "They're not so bad. Look how they're helping to rebuild everything they destroyed! Even though they're literally powered by the goo of 20,000 races, it's all good. There's no chance they'd ever become authoritarian dictators who would wipe out any 'problems' they run into while trying to preserve order." smh. I cannot fathom how anyone can conclude that saving them is a viable option. Yeah so much for "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness"
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 19, 2022 19:16:33 GMT
Yeah so much for "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, independent, no creepy starchild. I think ME2 started things on the right track with the dark energy, which we knew was the intent. It would completely change our view of them. In fact, the Refuse ending could almost make sense; if the Reapers were actually saving the galaxy from dark energy overload (or whatever it was). MEA was actually a great place to have picked up on that with the Jardaan and the kett. But no...
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 19, 2022 19:26:24 GMT
I don't think so. After the invasion the humans mostly get slaughtered. And what better way to get rid of the rest of the humans than by using a human Reaper? They thought they were coming sooner than the did. Six months, which is true whether or not you played Arrival (outcome is the same, Shep just may not have been involved), is how it turned out. They thought they were coming pretty much right away. Then shouldn't the Collectors have been at work while Saren was working for Sovereign? I mean, if Shep failed, the Reapers would have invaded even earlier. Don't know. Maybe the Collectors started the harvest early because of what happened with Sovereign. Based on what we learned about the prior cycle, the Reapers were pretty leisurely about killing off the spacefaring races, though we do know they failed to make a Prothean Reaper. If you figure you've got plenty of time to harvest, you wait. When your vanguard, Sovereign, is killed, they have to rethink things. It could also be that humanity wasn't the original intended race to harvest. It wasn't until Shepard led the charge to defeat Sovereign that humanity became the target. If humanity could kill a Reaper then they were proven superior. You want them off the board as a threat but also taking their strength into a new Reaper. That's why they "killed" Shepard and then started getting to work abducting human colonies. That had to have started pretty much right away because TIM immediately went to work to revive Shep in order to fight the Collectors.
So now we've got the harvesting in action. The Reapers were meant to arrive while the harvesting was in progress. The Arrival mission was given fairly early in the game, meaning the Reapers intended to be there ASAP. Shep stopped them but if you did that mission prior to the SM then you know you stopped them while harvesting was going on.
All of this is meant to say is that the Reapers intended to harvest after they arrived. The Collectors might have begun to harvest right after the Reapers arrived - which would have been the case had Sovereign not been defeated. The Collectors started harvesting exactly when they were meant to but the Reapers were late.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 19, 2022 20:18:52 GMT
Then shouldn't the Collectors have been at work while Saren was working for Sovereign? I mean, if Shep failed, the Reapers would have invaded even earlier. Don't know. Maybe the Collectors started the harvest early because of what happened with Sovereign. Based on what we learned about the prior cycle, the Reapers were pretty leisurely about killing off the spacefaring races, though we do know they failed to make a Prothean Reaper. If you figure you've got plenty of time to harvest, you wait. When your vanguard, Sovereign, is killed, they have to rethink things. It could also be that humanity wasn't the original intended race to harvest. It wasn't until Shepard led the charge to defeat Sovereign that humanity became the target. If humanity could kill a Reaper then they were proven superior. You want them off the board as a threat but also taking their strength into a new Reaper. That's why they "killed" Shepard and then started getting to work abducting human colonies. That had to have started pretty much right away because TIM immediately went to work to revive Shep in order to fight the Collectors.
So now we've got the harvesting in action. The Reapers were meant to arrive while the harvesting was in progress. The Arrival mission was given fairly early in the game, meaning the Reapers intended to be there ASAP. Shep stopped them but if you did that mission prior to the SM then you know you stopped them while harvesting was going on.
All of this is meant to say is that the Reapers intended to harvest after they arrived. The Collectors might have begun to harvest right after the Reapers arrived - which would have been the case had Sovereign not been defeated. The Collectors started harvesting exactly when they were meant to but the Reapers were late.
Problem is the Collectors were apparently under the control of Harbinger, who could have said 'take a break guys, we've had an unexpected delay 'cause Sovereign got blown up" I recall back in the day the theory for the Collectors starting to gather up humans early was because they NEEDED a new vanguard to open the dark space relays, so they were building a new reaper to finish what Sovereign started. But the alpha relay kinda bows that out of the water.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 19, 2022 20:35:26 GMT
Problem is the Collectors were apparently under the control of Harbinger, who could have said 'take a break guys, we've had an unexpected delay 'cause Sovereign got blown up" Just because it wasn't the original plan doesn't mean it had to be scrapped. If Baby Reaper had been successfully completed then it would have been just fine. Had it not been for TIM, the Reaper would have been finished. Remember, as far as anyone knew, Shepard was dead. There was no reason to think that in a galaxy that didn't believe in them that serious threat would exist. I recall back in the day the theory for the Collectors starting to gather up humans early was because they NEEDED a new vanguard to open the dark space relays, so they were building a new reaper to finish what Sovereign started. But the alpha relay kinda bows that out of the water. It was a theory, just like mine is. Still, doesn't mean it has to be entirely accurate. A bunch of indoctrinated scientists combined with a powerful Reaper artifact might have been able to complete the job. Even Sovereign needed the help of Saren to open the Citadel relay. Maybe it could have been done without so long as there were indoctrinated servants present. The people of the galaxy already know how to use mass relays. Perhaps the indoctrinated could have learned to tweak whatever code opens them to unlock dark space relays. ME1 and Arrival both made it clear that the Reapers needed relays to get into the inhabited parts of the galaxy in a reasonable amount of time, if at all. It was in ME3 where we see that the relays were irrelevant. They could be there in six months and could have been there long before the races even knew they existed. This brings me right back to the screw-ups with the Reapers were in ME2 [Edit: This should be in ME3.]. Everything else can work, at least how I've worked it out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2022 1:26:44 GMT
Problem is the Collectors were apparently under the control of Harbinger, who could have said 'take a break guys, we've had an unexpected delay 'cause Sovereign got blown up" Just because it wasn't the original plan doesn't mean it had to be scrapped. If Baby Reaper had been successfully completed then it would have been just fine. Had it not been for TIM, the Reaper would have been finished. Remember, as far as anyone knew, Shepard was dead. There was no reason to think that in a galaxy that didn't believe in them that serious threat would exist. I recall back in the day the theory for the Collectors starting to gather up humans early was because they NEEDED a new vanguard to open the dark space relays, so they were building a new reaper to finish what Sovereign started. But the alpha relay kinda bows that out of the water. It was a theory, just like mine is. Still, doesn't mean it has to be entirely accurate. A bunch of indoctrinated scientists combined with a powerful Reaper artifact might have been able to complete the job. Even Sovereign needed the help of Saren to open the Citadel relay. Maybe it could have been done without so long as there were indoctrinated servants present. The people of the galaxy already know how to use mass relays. Perhaps the indoctrinated could have learned to tweak whatever code opens them to unlock dark space relays. ME1 and Arrival both made it clear that the Reapers needed relays to get into the inhabited parts of the galaxy in a reasonable amount of time, if at all. It was in ME3 where we see that the relays were irrelevant. They could be there in six months and could have been there long before the races even knew they existed. This brings me right back to the screw-ups with the Reapers were in ME2. Everything else can work, at least how I've worked it out. I don't think we ever saw a completely dormant relay get activated in the games. It was mentioned in the codex that the reapers don't share the same concerns as organics and would routinely check every single relay, even the dormant ones to search for sufficiently developed civilizations to harvest. Its also interesting how in ME3 MP there are a lot of unexplained collector mechanics. Like how EVERY SINGLE COLLECTOR can be possessed at the same time versus just one at a time with harbinger in ME2. You would think that they'd have had lines for harbinger commanding smaller destroyer class reapers to assist him like how there was one on rannoch controlling the entire geth fleet there. Really sad how Retaliation was largely just fanservice and not much thought put into its lore. Harbinger even appeared in the trailer. Javik is the current Prothean avatar of vengeance, not the collectors. Would be cool to see an awakened collector character feature in the story of a mass effect game in the same capacity that legion did.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 20, 2022 4:41:22 GMT
I don't think we ever saw a completely dormant relay get activated in the games. It was mentioned in the codex that the reapers don't share the same concerns as organics and would routinely check every single relay, even the dormant ones to search for sufficiently developed civilizations to harvest. That makes sense. They want to know where to target. The relays are in more places than the known races have explored. (Incidentally, I thought exploration of those unexplored relays would have been a great way to handle a fourth ME game rather than heading out to another galaxy but that's not relevant here.) I don't actually know what a dormant relay is. There are relays that are more or less banned from use ever since the rachni were found beyond one that linked to an unknown region of space. Arcturus has three relays nearby, one that is a "primary" relay that links to the Exodus System, another that goes to Sol (Relay 202) and a third. There are obviously two in the Serpent Nebula. One is the Citadel, which leads to dark space and the other is the Widow relay. The Omega cluster also has two, only one of which is accessible without special technology. The Alpha Relay is the oldest known relay in the galaxy. It doesn't seem to have been in use and maybe worked only like the Citadel and Omega-4 relays in that a special signal was required to open it. Presumably the indoctrinated sciences in the Bahak System were able to transmit that signal using the Reaper artifact. [Source: Mass Relay] Its also interesting how in ME3 MP there are a lot of unexplained collector mechanics. Like how EVERY SINGLE COLLECTOR can be possessed at the same time versus just one at a time with harbinger in ME2. I would assume MP is separate from the main game, even though it was once necessary in order to achieve high levels of galactic readiness - or so I've heard. That changed before I started playing six years ago. As you said, it doesn't seem to have fit in with the lore. Would be cool to see an awakened collector character feature in the story of a mass effect game in the same capacity that legion did. I don't see why not. Not all Collectors had to be on the other side of the Omega-4 relay. I wonder how it would work without Harbinger or the Collector General to give it orders. Imagine is it met a surviving Javik. That said, I'd have to say it wouldn't be anything more than a mindless drone because I think they were bred to follow orders and nothing else. I can imagine TIM (or someone like him) trying to crack its genetic structure to create some human/Collector hybrid. Or maybe he did but didn't have the chance to run tests. Then we find it post-war.
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Post by lordmoral on Apr 20, 2022 21:56:13 GMT
I don't see why not. Not all Collectors had to be on the other side of the Omega-4 relay. I wonder how it would work without Harbinger or the Collector General to give it orders. Imagine is it met a surviving Javik. That said, I'd have to say it wouldn't be anything more than a mindless drone because I think they were bred to follow orders and nothing else. I can imagine TIM (or someone like him) trying to crack its genetic structure to create some human/Collector hybrid. Or maybe he did but didn't have the chance to run tests. Then we find it post-war. I get the suspicion Cerberus got to Illos before the Citadel Fleets and secured Virgil plus a good number of dead Protheans. Then it cloned a few mixing MW DNA to make hybrids and the Conduit was what TIM used to bypass Shepard attention. Maybe Hackett and others knew of a struggle on Illos but chose to ignore that in favor of following Shepard plan without informing the player that the backdoor to the political leadership was in peril.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 21, 2022 6:21:14 GMT
I don't see why not. Not all Collectors had to be on the other side of the Omega-4 relay. I wonder how it would work without Harbinger or the Collector General to give it orders. Imagine is it met a surviving Javik. That said, I'd have to say it wouldn't be anything more than a mindless drone because I think they were bred to follow orders and nothing else. I can imagine TIM (or someone like him) trying to crack its genetic structure to create some human/Collector hybrid. Or maybe he did but didn't have the chance to run tests. Then we find it post-war. I get the suspicion Cerberus got to Illos before the Citadel Fleets and secured Virgil plus a good number of dead Protheans. Then it cloned a few mixing MW DNA to make hybrids and the Conduit was what TIM used to bypass Shepard attention. Maybe Hackett and others knew of a struggle on Illos but chose to ignore that in favor of following Shepard plan without informing the player that the backdoor to the political leadership was in peril. I am sure that was a project. Also don't forget that Cerberus did develop an Armor based on Collector appearance. So they have Collector Technology to do that.
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Post by hulluliini on Apr 21, 2022 7:47:49 GMT
Yeah so much for "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, independent, no creepy starchild. I think ME2 started things on the right track with the dark energy, which we knew was the intent. It would completely change our view of them. In fact, the Refuse ending could almost make sense; if the Reapers were actually saving the galaxy from dark energy overload (or whatever it was). MEA was actually a great place to have picked up on that with the Jardaan and the kett. But no... I wish you were a writer at Bioware. Also the idea of exploring dormant relays. These ideas seem so obvious now that you mention them but it does take some kind of innate talent or skill to come up with them. Or maybe it takes having higher ups who don't stick their fingers into everything.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 21, 2022 11:30:41 GMT
I get the suspicion Cerberus got to Illos before the Citadel Fleets and secured Virgil plus a good number of dead Protheans. Then it cloned a few mixing MW DNA to make hybrids and the Conduit was what TIM used to bypass Shepard attention. Maybe Hackett and others knew of a struggle on Illos but chose to ignore that in favor of following Shepard plan without informing the player that the backdoor to the political leadership was in peril. I am sure that was a project. Also don't forget that Cerberus did develop an Armor based on Collector appearance. So they have Collector Technology to do that. That's right. When Cerberus is rebuilt in ME4, they will develop reaper armor for Shepard to wear. excellent.
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Post by lordmoral on Apr 21, 2022 12:59:13 GMT
I get the suspicion Cerberus got to Illos before the Citadel Fleets and secured Virgil plus a good number of dead Protheans. Then it cloned a few mixing MW DNA to make hybrids and the Conduit was what TIM used to bypass Shepard attention. Maybe Hackett and others knew of a struggle on Illos but chose to ignore that in favor of following Shepard plan without informing the player that the backdoor to the political leadership was in peril. I am sure that was a project. Also don't forget that Cerberus did develop an Armor based on Collector appearance. So they have Collector Technology to do that. I am positive they made deals with the Collectors prior to the events of ME 2, hence why TIM knew so much of them and the specific of their deals and how they are not very forthcoming of their plans. ME2 was for TIM a way to both stop the abductions on humans by them and to gain all of their technology. There needed to be more development between Shepard and the Virmire Survivor after Horizon but Bioware pushed them aside up until Mass Effect 3.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 21, 2022 17:22:32 GMT
I am sure that was a project. Also don't forget that Cerberus did develop an Armor based on Collector appearance. So they have Collector Technology to do that. I am positive they made deals with the Collectors prior to the events of ME 2, hence why TIM knew so much of them and the specific of their deals and how they are not very forthcoming of their plans. ME2 was for TIM a way to both stop the abductions on humans by them and to gain all of their technology. There needed to be more development between Shepard and the Virmire Survivor after Horizon but Bioware pushed them aside up until Mass Effect 3. Well that is a possiblity and Cerberus are not above stealing Xeno-technology for research.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 22, 2022 15:03:42 GMT
I am positive they made deals with the Collectors prior to the events of ME 2, hence why TIM knew so much of them and the specific of their deals and how they are not very forthcoming of their plans. ME2 was for TIM a way to both stop the abductions on humans by them and to gain all of their technology. There needed to be more development between Shepard and the Virmire Survivor after Horizon but Bioware pushed them aside up until Mass Effect 3. Well that is a possiblity and Cerberus are not above stealing Xeno-technology for research. Correction. Cerberus does not steal. They acquire useful information they use to make things better. Look at the plans for the Normandy. Had they not acquired those plans, the SR2 would never exist. The collectors would not have been stopped. The reapers would have harvested this cycle.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2022 18:42:28 GMT
Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, independent, no creepy starchild. I think ME2 started things on the right track with the dark energy, which we knew was the intent. It would completely change our view of them. In fact, the Refuse ending could almost make sense; if the Reapers were actually saving the galaxy from dark energy overload (or whatever it was). MEA was actually a great place to have picked up on that with the Jardaan and the kett. But no... I wish you were a writer at Bioware. Also the idea of exploring dormant relays. These ideas seem so obvious now that you mention them but it does take some kind of innate talent or skill to come up with them. Or maybe it takes having higher ups who don't stick their fingers into everything. Welp, now you've done it. If your goal was to get a Mass Effect game starring Alenko. This wouldn't be bad
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