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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 21:41:41 GMT
Hello BSN, this thread is a place for discussing electrical issues at home or at work, mysteries with the electron flow, pictures of plasma.... if it has to do with electricity, it can go here. This thread may be moderated by an electrician - DragonKingReborn is one. I am too, as is rewindbutton , and maybe a few others here on BSN. This does not mean we know everything about electricity, or can answer your question. It is a great place to get smart questions to ask your local contractor, to narrow down an issue you are having, to help you make a cool new LED setup for your gaming room etc. My credentials - 15 year union electrician, with some specialization in low voltage and networking. ...
(Scroll to bottom for TL;dr, this is a long post.)
To get things started, here is the rabbit hole I just found the bottom of, after... about 6 years of thinking about it. Gave up a long time ago, because it was so weird and unpredictable/ not always reproducible. We have a chandelier in our dining room, that worked fine when we moved into the home. It is a "tiffany"-style 3 bulb fixture, and originally had 3 incandescent light bulbs in it. When I bought the house, I purchased LED bulbs for everything. Enter the rabbit hole. Putting in 3 LED bulbs, only one bulb would turn on. Cool, one socket has an issue... put in an incandescent into the socket, no problem. Would sometimes turn on the other bulbs on though, which was a lot of fun in itself as I am watching ghosts in the machine fuck with me. Good times! Must be the old dimmer not being compatible, duh! Put in new dimmer, uh....
My brain chewed on this for a day or two, and then spat out "POLARITY!" I was so proud of myself, what a big brain! Open up the bottom of the fixture, and looked inside to find.... black to black, white to white. All three bulbs wired properly, joined properly. No crossing of the streams Ray. 
I talked about it with my friends at work. All of us, electricians. Nobody had a clue, everyone wanted pictures. I made a video, showed it to them. Everyone looked at me with a helpless shrug. A few of my nerdier friends were, like myself, visibly disturbed.
Here's the deal folks - a light bulb, regardless of whether it has a filament (incandescent) or a diode (LED) or gas (CFM), has two points of contact for electricity. The screw surface on the sides, and the bottom of the bulb. They all work exactly, I mean exactly, the same, in regards to how the power passes through them.
So... I gave up.
----->>>>>
Fast-forward to today. Frustrated with all the work I'd done in the dining room with my window bench/closet built-in and seeing that lamp have strangely 2/3 bulbs working sometimes, sometimes all 3, sometimes just 1... I had enough. I hadn't wanted to take it down from the ceiling back then, because I knew doing that that I was falling in head first and would have to rewire the entire lamp. Which is what is happening. The fun part is understanding why...
You see, this lamp is not a fancy lamp. It was probably bought at an American big-box retailer, and was mass produced in China. Many products are, this post is not hating on anything other than lack of standardization between countries. This will be relevant in a moment. I got it down on the ground, and wired a temporary tail to the 3 bulbs, making sure I had perfect contact with all wires in the wire nut. To my dismay, only one bulb worked. This problem was not at the wire nut level in any way (which is problematic), and was also not a problem in the ceiling wiring (which is a great thing thankfully).
So, let's be systematic. Wire tail to one bulb at a time.... only one socket works reliably with all three bulbs. It is identical to the others.
Check with meter - 123vac from each socket, wired individually or together.
What. The. Fuck.
So, I stare at it. And stare some more. Get mad about it. Search Stackoverflow... and read about e27/e26 compatibility. And, something clicks. I stare at the bulbs in front of me... a CFM Reveal, a Feit 3200k LED, and a 60w incandescent. I stare at the screw length... almost identical, maybe a slight difference to my eye, but minimal. Then I look at the bottom contact... and I see the light. And the darkness. And the folly of mass production, where cost savings at that time led to my issue years later.
See, the lamp was probably made in the early 2000s. Maybe even the 90s. Incandescent was the way. E26 is the american light bulb standard, E27 is one of the European standards. They are "interoperable". Except when they aren't.
My lamp, I suspect, was wired with E27 sockets because it was cheaper for the manufacturer to buy one sku. The difference really is almost trivial, but can be compounded by using modern light bulbs. Why?
E26 screw length is 19.56 mm. E27 is 22.0 mm. Ok... so, screw it in tighter? Why did it work sometimes? Why does the incandescent always work in any of the three? Because the insulator depth is greater on the incandescent, which also has a narrower live contact pad. It has a longer screw length than a modern LED/CFM!
The answer is surprisingly simple, as it often is. Part of the issue here is wear on the sockets, part of it is the wrong socket, and part of it is poor manufacturing standards within the E26 bulb range. They don't all have the same screw length, and that can matter. Yes, this is a double-headed electrical dragon (or a Hydra?) dumb dumb dumb and why standardization should have happened. Sigh. The E27 socket worked fine always with the incandescent bulbs, but over time the live contact inside got smushed down and lost its springiness. This meant that, when the modern bulbs were installed, the live contact could barely touch the contact pad of the CFM/LED. Sadly, flexing these contacts up with a screwdriver was not enough to fix the issue. I could have made a fire hazard with some tinfoil, but my hat needs mending and this thread is about preventing fires, not starting them 
So, I have ordered three E26 sockets, and will rewire the lamp when they arrive and this will be a wrap. I cannot find a stamp on the old sockets I am replacing, to confirm my suspicion that they are in-fact E27. However, the evidence adds up, in my opinion. I am very happy to hear thoughts that others may have about this case... especially if the rewiring doesn't solve the situation! For now, I am confident that this has been solved and I will have success, but there will be no proof until you see the picture of it working again. Fear not, I will prevail (unless one of you already saw an elephant and want to bash me over the head with it).
...
TL; dr - There was an air gap between the bottom of my bulb and the hot contact that was supposed to touch it and make the electrons dance. Electricity requires positive contact to flow reliably. Remedy is to replace sockets that have correct depth for E26 bulbs.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 8, 2023 22:08:34 GMT
*likes 120-220 times, depending on location*
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 22:39:17 GMT
*likes 120-220 times, depending on location* This is an appropriate joke!  ETA - I prefer the 220/230/250v system, if I had a preference for global standard that would be it. More efficient. However, Murica. |
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Post by skekSil on Jan 8, 2023 22:44:18 GMT
*likes 120-220 times, depending on location* |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 23:17:44 GMT
*likes 120-220 times, depending on location* I really enjoyed this video! However, when he says, matter-of-factly, "it's 120v" not 110... it is 120, now. Old-timers still refer to it as 110, even if they know the US system was "upgraded" to 120v over time. So, in that one part of the video, he is technically correct but also possibly ignorant of why people say 110? Trained by old-timers that still call it 110 today. As a result, I do too sometimes. Still, I like the video, he presents the information in an accessible way. |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 9, 2023 7:10:56 GMT
*likes 120-220 times, depending on location* This is an appropriate joke!  ETA - I prefer the 220/230/250v system, if I had a preference for global standard that would be it. More efficient. However, Murica. Ohm wondering watt other jokes the thread will throw up.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 9, 2023 7:11:45 GMT
Wait…250V?
That sounds like witchcraft. What places use 250?
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 9, 2023 11:54:21 GMT
discussing electrical issues Just a reminder: before asking random dudes on the internet, check your local electrical code or standard for what you are allowed to do. I am L2 certified (European), with specialization in 12V power supply and low voltage electronics. Later I studied computer engineering and networking. After that I studied something else entirely.  Anyway, a thread about electricity is quite welcome. 
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 9, 2023 13:21:16 GMT
E26 screw length is 19.56 mm. E27 is 22.0 mm. over time the live contact inside got smushed down and lost its springiness the lamp was probably made in the early 2000s. Maybe even the 90s. I could've saved you the trouble: this was a common problem when LED bulbs became a thing. While a lamp made in the early 90's could be considered early Americana [ ], in Europe it's common to see lamps made in the 50's and 60's. Our oldest lamp was made in the 40's. Contacts in old lamps have lost their springiness ages ago and usually need some persuasion. |
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 9, 2023 13:28:34 GMT
I don't think anyone uses 250V atm, but home appliances are usually rated for 90V-250V. |
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 9, 2023 13:42:15 GMT
Another word of warning: Some countries have very strict regulations when it comes to modifying, rewiring or otherwise making changes in electrical appliences or equipment. You may be considered henceforth manufacturer of said equipment, and held accountable for any damage or injury. Furthermore, restrictions for selling said equipment may apply.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 15:12:11 GMT
Another word of warning: Some countries have very strict regulations when it comes to modifying, rewiring or otherwise making changes in electrical appliences or equipment. You may be considered henceforth manufacturer of said equipment, and held accountable for any damage or injury. Furthermore, restrictions for selling said equipment may apply. Well, that's interesting. Seems somewhat reasonable though. UL rates things that the manufacturer built, not what I fixed. Right to repair needs to be fought for more. I assume, if I had to repair something electrical, that that thing is my responsibility going forward. Legality is certainly a concern. I don't intend to make problems for people with a silly little internet thread about electricity on a gaming forum, so let's make this abundantly clear - Advice given here will always include safety steps involved, because we don't want anyone getting hurt. Advice here may stop at "call a local electrician" or "call the AHJ", and if the advice gets to that, realize you have found a dead-end and should follow the advice and make that call. Advice here may come from an electrician from a different part of the world. This isn't too important, since it's all the same to us mostly, but at times there may be slight disagreement about how to do things. That is because the NEC is a suggestion, not law. The WWEC? LMFAO |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 15:16:34 GMT
I don't think anyone uses 250V atm, but home appliances are usually rated for 90V-250V. All new temporary power equipment in the US is rated for 125/250. It is predominately used in 3-phase 208v, but is rated up to 250. We typically push our generators up a little, depending on line length to output and balance/volume of load may go as high as 127v to keep L1+L2/L2+L3/L1+L3 at above 208 under load. For your consideration  |
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 9, 2023 16:17:20 GMT
I assume, if I had to repair something electrical, that that thing is my responsibility going forward. Making repairs is quite alright, as long as you use OEM or other approved parts. But you can not modify or change functionality, or make your own parts. |
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 9, 2023 16:19:38 GMT
We typically push our generators up a little It's the same here, except we aim for 400V or higher.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 18:12:36 GMT
We typically push our generators up a little It's the same here, except we aim for 400V or higher. On a large installation, we also use higher voltage, usually 480v stepped down to 208 through an appropriately sized transformer, for our service. Normally though, it is one or two generators running 3 phase 120/208, sometimes single phase if the situation fits. I assume, if I had to repair something electrical, that that thing is my responsibility going forward. Making repairs is quite alright, as long as you use OEM or other approved parts. But you can not modify or change functionality, or make your own parts. Regarding repair - what I do in my lab is none of your business  Lasers are fun! |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 9, 2023 19:56:21 GMT
Another word of warning: Some countries have very strict regulations when it comes to modifying, rewiring or otherwise making changes in electrical appliences or equipment. You may be considered henceforth manufacturer of said equipment, and held accountable for any damage or injury. Furthermore, restrictions for selling said equipment may apply. Advice here may come from an electrician from a different part of the world. This isn't too important, since it's all the same to us mostly, but at times there may be slight disagreement about how to do things. That is because the NEC is a suggestion, not law. The WWEC? LMFAO Electricity in the US has extra freedom. It's the law. 
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 9, 2023 19:58:21 GMT
I don't think anyone uses 250V atm, but home appliances are usually rated for 90V-250V. All new temporary power equipment in the US is rated for 125/250. It is predominately used in 3-phase 208v, but is rated up to 250. We typically push our generators up a little, depending on line length to output and balance/volume of load may go as high as 127v to keep L1+L2/L2+L3/L1+L3 at above 208 under load. For your consideration  Ah - temp power classifications. Got it. They tend to only mention load/output capacity of generators here (and they're all 220/230, anyway, unless you're looking at big industrial site units) - so you get specs in terms of wattage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 3:52:03 GMT
Advice here may come from an electrician from a different part of the world. This isn't too important, since it's all the same to us mostly, but at times there may be slight disagreement about how to do things. That is because the NEC is a suggestion, not law. The WWEC? LMFAO Electricity in the US has extra freedom. It's the law. It's a shame. Most good electricians in the US follow the NEC. As much as we are allowed to. Local code is literally the law. The Authority Having Jurisdiction is the last word on what is code. It is the wild wild west. It is a shitshow. |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 10, 2023 8:15:57 GMT
Electricity in the US has extra freedom. It's the law.  It's a shame. Most good electricians in the US follow the NEC. As much as we are allowed to. Local code is literally the law. The Authority Having Jurisdiction is the last word on what is code. It is the wild wild west. It is a shitshow. Whereas here? I (or, more accurately, the minions) have to compliance test every cable, multi plug, extension lead and item for earth bond, polarity, resistance and insulation every three months. And visually inspect for scoring on the pins and discolouration and physical ‘deformation’ before every hire. (Obviously not all tests are appropriate for all items). I was courtside at the tennis yesterday and the digital signage along the court had out of date compliance tags. From a competitor. I just about stormed the stadium offices.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 16:09:02 GMT
It's a shame. Most good electricians in the US follow the NEC. As much as we are allowed to. Local code is literally the law. The Authority Having Jurisdiction is the last word on what is code. It is the wild wild west. It is a shitshow. Whereas here? I (or, more accurately, the minions) have to compliance test every cable, multi plug, extension lead and item for earth bond, polarity, resistance and insulation every three months. And visually inspect for scoring on the pins and discolouration and physical ‘deformation’ before every hire. (Obviously not all tests are appropriate for all items). I was courtside at the tennis yesterday and the digital signage along the court had out of date compliance tags. From a competitor. I just about stormed the stadium offices. Multi-plug? Referring to socapex? Our rock'n'rollers call it "mult". We still use it quite a bit, but with the advent of LED we use it less and less... most of our lighting control now is done through a controller on the lamp, rather than just squeezing the line. As for compliance tags... not something I deal with in temporary power, and also very rare in residential. I can't speak to industrial/commercial power; I speak to the engineer when we are on someone else's system, and their certification status is their concern according to our contract. So unless I see something really wackadoodle, I trust them. |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 10, 2023 20:29:47 GMT
Whereas here? I (or, more accurately, the minions) have to compliance test every cable, multi plug, extension lead and item for earth bond, polarity, resistance and insulation every three months. And visually inspect for scoring on the pins and discolouration and physical ‘deformation’ before every hire. (Obviously not all tests are appropriate for all items). I was courtside at the tennis yesterday and the digital signage along the court had out of date compliance tags. From a competitor. I just about stormed the stadium offices. Multi-plug? Referring to socapex? Our rock'n'rollers call it "mult". We still use it quite a bit, but with the advent of LED we use it less and less... most of our lighting control now is done through a controller on the lamp, rather than just squeezing the line. As for compliance tags... not something I deal with in temporary power, and also very rare in residential. I can't speak to industrial/commercial power; I speak to the engineer when we are on someone else's system, and their certification status is their concern according to our contract. So unless I see something really wackadoodle, I trust them. Also called powerboards or retailers for consumer level - like this link - call them 4-way/6-way (which aren't anywhere near as fun as they sound). Compliance tags are non-existent in residential. It's a commercial/industrial thing. Up to 15A within 1.5m of a persons ability to reach or below 2m above ground level. Anywhere from 3 monthly to 5 yearly testing cycles depending on the type of item and whether or not it gets relocated. The legal obligation is actually on the premise owner/operator, however, they find ways to farm the liability out to external providers like my company who bring equipment in temporarily. As an AV jock, we're doing rentals for events; mostly conferences and trade shows, sometimes sporting events back room - never concerts, though - fuck that noise. So we're primarily concerned with load and - rarely - voltage drop.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 23:08:45 GMT
Multi-plug? Referring to socapex? Our rock'n'rollers call it "mult". We still use it quite a bit, but with the advent of LED we use it less and less... most of our lighting control now is done through a controller on the lamp, rather than just squeezing the line. As for compliance tags... not something I deal with in temporary power, and also very rare in residential. I can't speak to industrial/commercial power; I speak to the engineer when we are on someone else's system, and their certification status is their concern according to our contract. So unless I see something really wackadoodle, I trust them. Also called powerboards or retailers for consumer level - like this link - call them 4-way/6-way (which aren't anywhere near as fun as they sound). Compliance tags are non-existent in residential. It's a commercial/industrial thing. Up to 15A within 1.5m of a persons ability to reach or below 2m above ground level. Anywhere from 3 monthly to 5 yearly testing cycles depending on the type of item and whether or not it gets relocated. The legal obligation is actually on the premise owner/operator, however, they find ways to farm the liability out to external providers like my company who bring equipment in temporarily. As an AV jock, we're doing rentals for events; mostly conferences and trade shows, sometimes sporting events back room - never concerts, though - fuck that noise. So we're primarily concerned with load and - rarely - voltage drop. A power strip! This is soca, or "mult", to entertainment/temp power types. 6x20a. Cable can be used for 240v with L6-20 breakout instead of edison.  The 100' pieces of socapex cable are quite heavy, as you might imagine. |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 10, 2023 23:13:08 GMT
www.pbtech.co.nz/product/SURPDY26178/PUDNEY-P4095-4-WAY-OUTLET-WITH-OVERLOAD-PROTECTIONAlso called powerboards or retailers for consumer level - like this link - call them 4-way/6-way (which aren't anywhere near as fun as they sound). Compliance tags are non-existent in residential. It's a commercial/industrial thing. Up to 15A within 1.5m of a persons ability to reach or below 2m above ground level. Anywhere from 3 monthly to 5 yearly testing cycles depending on the type of item and whether or not it gets relocated. The legal obligation is actually on the premise owner/operator, however, they find ways to farm the liability out to external providers like my company who bring equipment in temporarily. As an AV jock, we're doing rentals for events; mostly conferences and trade shows, sometimes sporting events back room - never concerts, though - fuck that noise. So we're primarily concerned with load and - rarely - voltage drop. A power strip! This is soca, or "mult", to entertainment/temp power types. 6x20a. Cable can be used for 240v with L6-20 breakout instead of edison. The 100' pieces of socapex cable are quite heavy, as you might imagine. Oof. Getting big Multicore energy from that sucker. Basically the same principle but with audio. Comes in 20, 30, 50 and (gulp) 100m lengths with up to 30 different leads inside it and a junction box at one end. The 50 and 100m units are...heavy. And all of them are a colossal pain in the arse. 6x 20A, though? Noice. Thems big juicy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 23:20:23 GMT
A power strip! This is soca, or "mult", to entertainment/temp power types. 6x20a. Cable can be used for 240v with L6-20 breakout instead of edison. The 100' pieces of socapex cable are quite heavy, as you might imagine. Oof. Getting big Multicore energy from that sucker. Basically the same principle but with audio. Comes in 20, 30, 50 and (gulp) 100m lengths with up to 30 different leads inside it and a junction box at one end. The 50 and 100m units are...heavy. And all of them are a colossal pain in the arse. 6x 20A, though? Noice. Thems big juicy. Very helpful if you need control of discreet circuits from a distance. Sets are not wired like homes. Light switches do nothing but move. The power outlets are real... we split the duplex, and have one half of the receptacle powered by "hot" (120v) power from a nearby distro box, and the other half of the receptacle is powered through a remote dimmer, sending juice through socapex cable to one of these breakouts. We have dimmer racks made to accept this cable, so 12/24/48/96 and then racks of 96 if you need more. Before "smart" lighting, this was how we did almost everything, and the stages were insanely hot. LEDs still got hot, but the difference in heat is equivalent to a Sovereign-fart. (I think this is big? Like metric shit ton?) Each breakout is labeled, starting at 1-6, then 7-12, 13-18 etc |
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