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Unapologetic Western Chauvinist. Barefoot. Great Toenails
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bevesthda
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jan 25, 2022 11:58:50 GMT
I think forensics would be able to tell a blank from an actual live round after its been fired by looking for the crimping, but it ain't exactly an expert on the matter. Of course. And they can look at the bodies. (who says it was the same projectile? What about different fragments? I'm not trying to be contrarian here. It's just that about all details which I have not heard facts, but only assumptions, I want to keep possibilities open.) ...If they have reported anything at all on the matter, I've so far missed it. Also, don't hang up too much on it being an old gun, made from old steel. It's been in almost continuous production all the time. They're still made today. I don't know anything about collector values on the really old 1873s, but it doesn't seem logical to use an antique gun, when new ones are widely available. Some reliable hard information is starting to sift through from the legal system. 1: The gun was of modern manufacture. (Entirely logical. Why use anything else?) 2: Alec Baldwin was to draw the gun, cock it and point it in the general direction of the camera. This was the scene they had set up to... eh,.. make. So in these actions he did nothing wrong. 3: He was not going to shoot the gun in this clip. Which leads us to two questions: A - Why did the hammer fall? B - Why was the gun loaded with anything else than dummy cartridges? ( In movie production, cartridges that look exactly like a real live round, including bullet, are used for all scenes that feature visible ammunition. They do not contain propellant or live primer, and can be distinguished by shaking; they contain a few birdshot to rattle.) (Blanks cannot be used in a general role. First of all they look differently. There are also different kinds of blanks. Blanks that show off the effect of a gunshot, bang, flash and smoke, are dangerous and cannot be used close and in the direction of people. The two previous high profile deaths by gun on a movie set, Brandon Lee and Jon-Erik Hexum, were both caused by blanks, not by live rounds. There are other softer kinds of blanks, that only spark a bit, that can be used closer. But mostly, these days, close gun shots are faked with special effects and post production.) My supposition is that, had Baldwin been a gun person instead of 2A-abolisher, he would personally have removed the cartridges and shaken them, before reloading them again. And he would have checked the action of the gun. Since actors are generally not educated in gun handling, the normal, minimum safety procedure is that the responsible person, shows the actor the gun and ammunition, checking them and loading them, before handing over the gun. The story so far is that this was not routine on this movie production. And he would not have had the finger on the trigger, unless the script called for that, which it apparently didn't. Did he have the finger on the trigger? Or did he pull the trigger? Maybe, maybe not. It seems that in most movies, Baldwin handling a gun, his finger is on the trigger. So maybe that is how he thinks guns are handled. If the gun is not found to be defect, the events are impossible unless he did have the finger on the trigger. Otherwise, frankly, I think Alec Baldwin's version of the event is starting to look better in parts. A problem is that his own later stories do not match up with his (according to witnesses) reaction. But this also seem to be in Alec's favor. Witnesses describe him as instantly shocked and paralyzed, when the gun went off, while his own media tale has no focus on that, but his surprise that the cartridge "was live". No hard info on the ammo, but so far it does appear to have been a genuine live round. In that case, what the hell did it do on the movie set at all? To me, it seems Baldwin's part of responsibility for these tragic events, is more from the leadership role, than what he did as an actor on the scene. He was the producer, after all.
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Post by nanotm on Feb 4, 2022 17:35:15 GMT
Of course. And they can look at the bodies. (who says it was the same projectile? What about different fragments? I'm not trying to be contrarian here. It's just that about all details which I have not heard facts, but only assumptions, I want to keep possibilities open.) ...If they have reported anything at all on the matter, I've so far missed it. Also, don't hang up too much on it being an old gun, made from old steel. It's been in almost continuous production all the time. They're still made today. I don't know anything about collector values on the really old 1873s, but it doesn't seem logical to use an antique gun, when new ones are widely available. Some reliable hard information is starting to sift through from the legal system. 1: The gun was of modern manufacture. (Entirely logical. Why use anything else?) 2: Alec Baldwin was to draw the gun, cock it and point it in the general direction of the camera. This was the scene they had set up to... eh,.. make. So in these actions he did nothing wrong. 3: He was not going to shoot the gun in this clip. Which leads us to two questions: A - Why did the hammer fall? B - Why was the gun loaded with anything else than dummy cartridges? ( In movie production, cartridges that look exactly like a real live round, including bullet, are used for all scenes that feature visible ammunition. They do not contain propellant or live primer, and can be distinguished by shaking; they contain a few birdshot to rattle.) (Blanks cannot be used in a general role. First of all they look differently. There are also different kinds of blanks. Blanks that show off the effect of a gunshot, bang, flash and smoke, are dangerous and cannot be used close and in the direction of people. The two previous high profile deaths by gun on a movie set, Brandon Lee and Jon-Erik Hexum, were both caused by blanks, not by live rounds. There are other softer kinds of blanks, that only spark a bit, that can be used closer. But mostly, these days, close gun shots are faked with special effects and post production.) My supposition is that, had Baldwin been a gun person instead of 2A-abolisher, he would personally have removed the cartridges and shaken them, before reloading them again. And he would have checked the action of the gun. Since actors are generally not educated in gun handling, the normal, minimum safety procedure is that the responsible person, shows the actor the gun and ammunition, checking them and loading them, before handing over the gun. The story so far is that this was not routine on this movie production. And he would not have had the finger on the trigger, unless the script called for that, which it apparently didn't. Did he have the finger on the trigger? Or did he pull the trigger? Maybe, maybe not. It seems that in most movies, Baldwin handling a gun, his finger is on the trigger. So maybe that is how he thinks guns are handled. If the gun is not found to be defect, the events are impossible unless he did have the finger on the trigger. Otherwise, frankly, I think Alec Baldwin's version of the event is starting to look better in parts. A problem is that his own later stories do not match up with his (according to witnesses) reaction. But this also seem to be in Alec's favor. Witnesses describe him as instantly shocked and paralyzed, when the gun went off, while his own media tale has no focus on that, but his surprise that the cartridge "was live". No hard info on the ammo, but so far it does appear to have been a genuine live round. In that case, what the hell did it do on the movie set at all? To me, it seems Baldwin's part of responsibility for these tragic events, is more from the leadership role, than what he did as an actor on the scene. He was the producer, after all. much as I like his acting and dislike him as a person based on his interviews and various news stories about the guy, this entire thing seems like he was a useful stooge. he has a history of pulling triggers whenever someone is in the sights of his prop gun (its been reported on many times in magazine articles and apparently caused him to be berated by some overenthusiastic liaison's... yeah he got some drill sgt's boot in his ass for "fucking about") not an uncommon thing, the vast majority do exactly the same thing becasue they never used one for its real purpose.... taking lives.... the fact he was the producer is likely another reason why he was chosen as a useful stooge... regardless of his politics, the fact is he should be charged at the very least for vicarious liability (someone died on his set, since he was one of the producers) at the same time everyone associated with the weapon and ammunition training handling and distribution should also be charged with at the very least a felony misdemeanour (which means they are also guilty for the "accidental death") as should every executive and producer who was on scene that day if for no other reason than the entertainment industry needs to get bitch slapped over firearms missuse. honestly the specifics and intent behind what happened dont even need to be established the fact they are wasting so much time and effort on all the crap means they are hoping to sweep it all under the rung with a few donations to the state (which is frankly disgusting).... be far better to hold them all accountable and then offer them a pay to get away option (say $20k for every day off their sentence, to be split between various medical and police charities, serving a triple benefit, the state doesnt waste $5k a week to incarcerate them, they each suffer commensurate with their personal liability and the entire industry learns not to fuck up in the future)... probably wont happen, most likely is some lacky will be found to have fingerprints on the ammo and be the sole person held responsible, or it'll just be written off as a terrible accident with unknown causes and not in the public interest to investigate further in another few weeks... cos money talks and they all have lots of it...
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 12, 2022 12:45:59 GMT
Ian did some videos on the first commercially available Gauss rifle.
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You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 13, 2022 23:10:26 GMT
Ian did some videos on the first commercially available Gauss rifle. My local range sent an email out about a similar design called an ‘e-shotgun’ that you can come and try out. DemolitionRanch did a video on it too. My thoughts: this class of ‘firearm’ is like the Tesla. Overly engineered, expensive, and a massive drain of electricity. That being said they have massive potential for improvement. Where I live, you need a license to own this nonlethal self defense and around $2000. Meanwhile I can order an AR lookalike that fires pepper and rubber balls on Amazon for $900.
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 15, 2022 12:07:03 GMT
Ian did some videos on the first commercially available Gauss rifle. My local range sent an email out about a similar design called an ‘e-shotgun’ that you can come and try out. DemolitionRanch did a video on it too. My thoughts: this class of ‘firearm’ is like the Tesla. Overly engineered, expensive, and a massive drain of electricity. That being said they have massive potential for improvement.Where I live, you need a license to own this nonlethal self defense and around $2000. Meanwhile I can order an AR lookalike that fires pepper and rubber balls on Amazon for $900. Yeah, like the bloke from Arc Flash said, these weapons are at the wright flyer stage in their development. They don't have much to them at the moment beyond the novelty factor as a private owner of one goes but we all have to start somewhere.
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Unapologetic Western Chauvinist. Barefoot. Great Toenails
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bevesthda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 15, 2022 19:53:30 GMT
My local range sent an email out about a similar design called an ‘e-shotgun’ that you can come and try out. DemolitionRanch did a video on it too. My thoughts: this class of ‘firearm’ is like the Tesla. Overly engineered, expensive, and a massive drain of electricity. That being said they have massive potential for improvement.Where I live, you need a license to own this nonlethal self defense and around $2000. Meanwhile I can order an AR lookalike that fires pepper and rubber balls on Amazon for $900. Yeah, like the bloke from Arc Flash said, these weapons are at the wright flyer stage in their development. They don't have much to them at the moment beyond the novelty factor as a private owner of one goes but we all have to start somewhere. I don't really think they have so much going for them. Physics seems to be stacked against them. This is about kinetic energy. The main factor of the weapon is the energy. Can energy be more effectively stored and carried in batteries than in gun powder? I kinda doubt that.
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 16, 2022 10:53:54 GMT
A gun with three CPUs? Count me in! I'd very much like to take one apart to see what makes it tick. an energy be more effectively stored and carried in batteries than in gun powder? Not yet, but that thing is only one invention away from greatness.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by skekSil on Feb 16, 2022 13:22:27 GMT
A gun with three CPUs? Count me in! I'd very much like to take one apart to see what makes it tick. Crystal oscillator. Though I very much doubt a gun needs a real-time clock.
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Unapologetic Western Chauvinist. Barefoot. Great Toenails
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 16, 2022 23:43:55 GMT
can energy be more effectively stored and carried in batteries than in gun powder? Not yet, but that thing is only one invention away from greatness. You may have misunderstood what I meant. Inventions do not transcend physics. I have not looked at the numbers in this case, but I can, and I maybe will, just to throw more light on it. But not now. But I think that the recent generation of electrolyte-less Lithium batteries (non-sustainable technology btw) represents close to the theoretical maximum energy density for a battery, and I also suspect that is not enough to compare to gunpowder. That is what I was alluding to. Now, as I said, I do not know that, because I haven't looked into it.
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 17, 2022 8:33:09 GMT
A gun with three CPUs? Count me in! I'd very much like to take one apart to see what makes it tick. Crystal oscillator. Though I very much doubt a gun needs a real-time clock. As someone who collects mechanical watches, I can appreciate this.
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 17, 2022 8:38:13 GMT
energy density for a battery, and I also suspect that is not enough to compare to gunpowder My thoughts exactly. Powders have roughly ten times the energy density of Lithium batteries (J/kg). Inventions do not transcend physics. We need better batteries.
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 17, 2022 8:40:56 GMT
KB recreates his accident.
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Unapologetic Western Chauvinist. Barefoot. Great Toenails
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bevesthda
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 18, 2022 14:32:51 GMT
energy density for a battery, and I also suspect that is not enough to compare to gunpowder My thoughts exactly. Powders have roughly ten times the energy density of Lithium batteries (J/kg). Inventions do not transcend physics. We need better batteries. Well, my first supposition was that that is probably not even physically possible. And I'm sure that can also be checked. It's physics/chemistry. There are numbers and boundaries.
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You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 24, 2022 1:23:14 GMT
Coil guns are a bit far off from being practical, but electrically fired firearms shooting DIY ammo might be the next big thing.
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 12,116 Likes: 30,348
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Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Mar 13, 2022 17:52:34 GMT
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You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
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Post by General Mahad on Mar 23, 2022 17:09:07 GMT
Not really guns but interesting none the less.
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Post by frosted on Mar 29, 2022 11:21:04 GMT
Sleazy video. What happened to your taste?
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Unapologetic Western Chauvinist. Barefoot. Great Toenails
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bevesthda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Apr 15, 2022 22:07:08 GMT
I've said it for like 20 years. Pay attention to lever rifles. They're as ideal as possible for... uh,.. things, without being "semiauto" or "military type". So there is a chance you will have to fall back on these some day. (also, old .30-30 is pretty much an ideal caliber for,.. uh, uhmm, some animals.) I'm not entirely convinced they should be this 'tacticalized' though. I think maybe they should just look like an old deer rifle or western gun. But those aluminum parts probably make them a lot more rugged.
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Post by General Mahad on Apr 25, 2022 23:25:17 GMT
I've said it for like 20 years. Pay attention to lever rifles. They're as ideal as possible for... uh,.. things, without being "semiauto" or "military type". So there is a chance you will have to fall back on these some day. (also, old .30-30 is pretty much an ideal caliber for,.. uh, uhmm, some animals.) I'm not entirely convinced they should be this 'tacticalized' though. I think maybe they should just look like an old deer rifle or western gun. But those aluminum parts probably make them a lot more rugged. This is really good advice for Kiwis, Brits, Aussies, and Canucks. Also, regarding the look, my dealer once told me a guy got off on an unclear ‘incident’ because a wooden firearm got used. Had the gun been polymer, the guy would have been rotting to this day. Never underestimate the look of your firearm in the eyes of the ignorant. (Not encouraging nor condoning anything illegal or legally dubious. Practice proper safety and comply with all laws in your country/territory)
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Apr 26, 2022 16:27:34 GMT
I've said it for like 20 years. Pay attention to lever rifles. They're as ideal as possible for... uh,.. things, without being "semiauto" or "military type". So there is a chance you will have to fall back on these some day. (also, old .30-30 is pretty much an ideal caliber for,.. uh, uhmm, some animals.) I'm not entirely convinced they should be this 'tacticalized' though. I think maybe they should just look like an old deer rifle or western gun. But those aluminum parts probably make them a lot more rugged. I have been preaching this for years, get yourself a proper lever action rifle as backup to your semi automatic rifle just in case laws are changing or when you need to stay somewhat low-profile. Imagine there is widespread riots, chaos, violence and police/military is on high alert and very trigger-happy. If you need to defend yourself it MIGHT be a good idea, depending on the circumstances, to be seen with a nice little wooden-stocked ''western rifle'' instead of a modded-to-death black or camo-ed AR15 with a drum magazine, red dot, light etc., anything that might be on par with what the armed forces in your country use. As for chamberings, with lever actions the .357 magnum is your friend. The tube magazine really favors short cartridges, with the .357 you get about twice as many rounds into the tube mag as with the 30-30 - ususally 30-30 have 5-6 round capacity while .357 have 10-12 rounds- and the .357 is still quite potent out of the long barrel, reaching 2100 fp/s with 125's. That will do it out to 200yds and that will absolutely defeat any body armor with the exception of rifle plates. Also, as a nice bonus the .357 has barely any recoil out of a rifle so you can stay on the target and keep blasting away as fast as you can cycle the action. There is also another bonus, if for whatever reason ammunition and powder is no longer available, the .357 lever can easily be loaded with lead cast projectiles and crude blackpwoder. Its not ideal nor as powerful, but it would still spit projectiles into people. A .44 Magnum or .45 colt would be much better suited for this specific scenario though, they work better with blackpowder.
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Unapologetic Western Chauvinist. Barefoot. Great Toenails
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bevesthda
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Apr 29, 2022 22:32:54 GMT
Well, well, well. It seems Baldwin's gun was loaded with blanks. All the remaining rounds in the revolver were high powered blanks. It should have been dummy rounds, since the gun would be pointed at the camera & crew, and the scene didn't call for any shooting.
Question I've still not seen answered: Was the fired round a live round (bullet), or was Hutchins killed by a blank, just like Lee and Hexum?
Problem: A live round looks exactly like a dummy cartridge. But blanks look completely different. How could the gun be loaded with one live round and the rest blanks, without anyone noticing? The difference is very visible. And, of course, live rounds shouldn't exist on the set at all.
The initial report from the hospital seem to suggest bullet. The projectile went through. Making it more likely that the projectile was slow and heavy, like a bullet, rather than something fast from a blank. But a blank can kill at close range with a fiber wad. Or, if it's not loaded with a wad, the front part of the cartridge, star-folded to become sealed, can tear off and become a high velocity projectile. A third possibility is that something else, an object that shouldn't have been in the gun, is propelled by the blank. Point blank range, no wad, torn off front or external projectile is needed. For these large calibers, if the muzzle is pressed against the body, the gas jet itself may be fatal.
With modern postproduction, there's no need for either blanks or live rounds on a movie set.
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a tidy workspace is the sign of a deranged mind
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Post by nanotm on May 1, 2022 16:12:53 GMT
Well, well, well. It seems Baldwin's gun was loaded with blanks. All the remaining rounds in the revolver were high powered blanks. It should have been dummy rounds, since the gun would be pointed at the camera & crew, and the scene didn't call for any shooting. Question I've still not seen answered: Was the fired round a live round (bullet), or was Hutchins killed by a blank, just like Lee and Hexum? Problem: A live round looks exactly like a dummy cartridge. But blanks look completely different. How could the gun be loaded with one live round and the rest blanks, without anyone noticing? The difference is very visible. And, of course, live rounds shouldn't exist on the set at all. The initial report from the hospital seem to suggest bullet. The projectile went through. Making it more likely that the projectile was slow and heavy, like a bullet, rather than something fast from a blank. But a blank can kill at close range with a fiber wad. Or, if it's not loaded with a wad, the front part of the cartridge, star-folded to become sealed, can tear off and become a high velocity projectile. A third possibility is that something else, an object that shouldn't have been in the gun, is propelled by the blank. Point blank range, no wad, torn off front or external projectile is needed. For these large calibers, if the muzzle is pressed against the body, the gas jet itself may be fatal. With modern postproduction, there's no need for either blanks or live rounds on a movie set. that depends on the budget of the movie, as to the specifics of what happened their not likely to tell anyone the truth, the law will be seen to be done and the public will lap it up and move on to the next scandal or spectacle... thats the sad truth about a lot of this sort of thing
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 12,116 Likes: 30,348
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Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Jul 1, 2022 13:04:39 GMT
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Evil
N3
Lurkin' since 24/02/2011
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Evil Mastered
PSN: Evil_Rurouni
Prime Posts: 2400
Prime Likes: 298
Posts: 459 Likes: 1,039
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Lurkin' since 24/02/2011
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Post by Evil on Jul 1, 2022 13:49:37 GMT
Well, well, well. It seems Baldwin's gun was loaded with blanks. All the remaining rounds in the revolver were high powered blanks. It should have been dummy rounds, since the gun would be pointed at the camera & crew, and the scene didn't call for any shooting. Question I've still not seen answered: Was the fired round a live round (bullet), or was Hutchins killed by a blank, just like Lee and Hexum? Problem: A live round looks exactly like a dummy cartridge. But blanks look completely different. How could the gun be loaded with one live round and the rest blanks, without anyone noticing? The difference is very visible. And, of course, live rounds shouldn't exist on the set at all. The initial report from the hospital seem to suggest bullet. The projectile went through. Making it more likely that the projectile was slow and heavy, like a bullet, rather than something fast from a blank. But a blank can kill at close range with a fiber wad. Or, if it's not loaded with a wad, the front part of the cartridge, star-folded to become sealed, can tear off and become a high velocity projectile. A third possibility is that something else, an object that shouldn't have been in the gun, is propelled by the blank. Point blank range, no wad, torn off front or external projectile is needed. For these large calibers, if the muzzle is pressed against the body, the gas jet itself may be fatal. With modern postproduction, there's no need for either blanks or live rounds on a movie set. I think I might have actually managed to guess correctly back when this was discussed in here a while back: The only halfway plausable theory I can think of would involve the people that were shooting live ammo off-set with the prop guns having a squib, leaving a round lodged in the barrel, then ballsack pushing the squib out the barrel with a blank, mayyyyyyyyyyyybeeeeeeeee that could work?
A high power blank might well have enough oomph to push a squib out the barrel and hit 2 victims. A proper projectile is more likely to be able to generate an entry-exit wound than some random piece of gunk in the barrel or a piece of a blank cartridge would be. A squib would be harder to spot than an incorrect cartridge.
If this is what happened, most of the blame will go to prop handling for letting the props be used for off-set shooting. The rules regarding on set checks will enforce inspection of the ammo and the chamber, but I've not heard anything about them enforcing barrel obstruction checks.
Its damn weird that theres still been no confirmation whether the projectile was a proper lead round or something else tho. Really ought to have been one of the first pieces of evidence to be chased up.
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General Mahad
You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
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Post by General Mahad on Jul 8, 2022 17:54:09 GMT
Shinzo Abe, former Prime Minister of Japan and a heavy weight in the ruling Liberal Democratic party, has been assassinated with what appears to be a electrically-fired pipe blunderbuss. #m Whatever political grievances he may have caused, he did not deserve getting murdered.
This was also discovered in the assassin's home:
Another electrically-fired multi barrelled blunderbuss.
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