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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jan 3, 2020 23:08:22 GMT
Ive just come from seeing The Rise of Skywalker.....and I really quite enjoyed it. I thought it was well done and a solid conclusion to the new trilogy. I was glued to the screen from start to finish and at least once, I found myself so engrossed that I was literally on the edge of my seat still leaning forward.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 3, 2020 23:18:05 GMT
Ive just come from seeing The Rise of Skywalker.....and I really quite enjoyed it. I thought it was well done and a solid conclusion to the new trilogy. I was glued to the screen from start to finish and at least once, I found myself so engrossed that I was literally on the edge of my seat still leaning forward. Good! I had a similar reaction. Now take a day and let the story you have just witnessed process, and so become as confused as the rest of us (who still like the movie).
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Post by Iakus on Jan 3, 2020 23:47:14 GMT
well its like someone said here, the Skywalkers don't tend to take responsibility for their actions. And that is traditionally part of redemption, owning up to your past misdeeds. *** An interesting explanation. That doesn't make any sense. If his body was destroyed and he's inhabiting a corpse. Whose corpse is it, and why does it look like him? They would have been better off saying it was a clone. But then again, once you bring clones into the mix, there's no finality. I saw this article today, about why there's no explanation of how he's back. www.yahoo.com/entertainment/rise-skywalker-cut-explaining-palpatine-154530234.htmlTo quote one passage. “There was so much information in the film and so many characters that we wanted to have an audience concentrate on. I think we felt we didn’t want to clutter the film up with things you didn’t need to know.” The article is about how explaining it would have gone off topic. What? How is that off topic, or something the audience didn't need to know? Guarantee it was the first question on the minds of the vast majority of movie goers before and after the film. Every day I see another article explaining something from the movie. If you have to do this much explaining after the fact, you just didn't do a good job telling your story. "You would not know them, and there is no time to explain"
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 4, 2020 0:05:56 GMT
Ive just come from seeing The Rise of Skywalker.....and I really quite enjoyed it. I thought it was well done and a solid conclusion to the new trilogy. I was glued to the screen from start to finish and at least once, I found myself so engrossed that I was literally on the edge of my seat still leaning forward. I mean in a sense ending garbage with more garbage is fitting I suppose.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 4, 2020 1:21:54 GMT
well its like someone said here, the Skywalkers don't tend to take responsibility for their actions. And that is traditionally part of redemption, owning up to your past misdeeds. *** An interesting explanation. That doesn't make any sense. If his body was destroyed and he's inhabiting a corpse. Whose corpse is it, and why does it look like him? They would have been better off saying it was a clone. But then again, once you bring clones into the mix, there's no finality. I saw this article today, about why there's no explanation of how he's back. www.yahoo.com/entertainment/rise-skywalker-cut-explaining-palpatine-154530234.htmlTo quote one passage. “There was so much information in the film and so many characters that we wanted to have an audience concentrate on. I think we felt we didn’t want to clutter the film up with things you didn’t need to know.” The article is about how explaining it would have gone off topic. What? How is that off topic, or something the audience didn't need to know? Guarantee it was the first question on the minds of the vast majority of movie goers before and after the film. Every day I see another article explaining something from the movie. If you have to do this much explaining after the fact, you just didn't do a good job telling your story. To be fair this is becoming more and more of an occurence these days. Pretty much every major release I have seen since The Force Awakens has come with a plethora of analysis and 'Word of God' commentary explaining the behind the scenes thoughts and claryfying things. Movies just aren't that equipped for deep storytelling based on their focus on spectacle and really short canvas.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 4, 2020 2:41:08 GMT
That doesn't make any sense. If his body was destroyed and he's inhabiting a corpse. Whose corpse is it, and why does it look like him? They would have been better off saying it was a clone. But then again, once you bring clones into the mix, there's no finality. I saw this article today, about why there's no explanation of how he's back. Every day I see another article explaining something from the movie. If you have to do this much explaining after the fact, you just didn't do a good job telling your story. To be fair this is becoming more and more of an occurence these days. Pretty much every major release I have seen since The Force Awakens has come with a plethora of analysis and 'Word of God' commentary explaining the behind the scenes thoughts and claryfying things. Movies just aren't that equipped for deep storytelling based on their focus on spectacle and really short canvas. Uh... no
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 4, 2020 3:45:40 GMT
To be fair this is becoming more and more of an occurence these days. Pretty much every major release I have seen since The Force Awakens has come with a plethora of analysis and 'Word of God' commentary explaining the behind the scenes thoughts and claryfying things. Movies just aren't that equipped for deep storytelling based on their focus on spectacle and really short canvas. Uh... no
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 4, 2020 3:53:11 GMT
Started rewatching the movies. Thought about starting from Ep 1 but I can't do it. The prequels really suck. They had their moments, the Jedi stuff but its overwhelmed by those stupid battle droids, Jar Jar, crappy CGI that hasn't aged well and the bad casting of Vader. An annoying little brat when he was young and then and emo teenager, but he improved in Ep3. So we just started with Rogue One and I just got done with New Hope. The new CGI stuff that Lucas added to that didn't age well either. Seeing Leia and Luke so young and naive was great. Then we have Luke's Bobby Sueness using the Force for the first time to guide a missile down a small hole to hit just the right spot on the death star to blow it up. My favorite, Empire, I'll watch tomorrow.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 4, 2020 5:14:03 GMT
To be fair this is becoming more and more of an occurence these days. Pretty much every major release I have seen since The Force Awakens has come with a plethora of analysis and 'Word of God' commentary explaining the behind the scenes thoughts and claryfying things. Movies just aren't that equipped for deep storytelling based on their focus on spectacle and really short canvas. Uh... no To be fair I didn't speak in the general vagueness that post warranted... however in terms of generalities modern movies aren't as capable for in depth storytelling as...well any other medium. Movies get at most 2 and a half hours to tell their stories...books, games, and tv shows get a lot more time. Now this does not mean it has to be better or worse written, just that they usually have more time to develop...well everything.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 4, 2020 6:32:57 GMT
The guy was blowing up planets with the First Order. If Kylo ever left, I'm not sure what fans expected other than a life sentence or execution. Kylo, like Vader, had no happily ever after awaiting his redemption. For just a few seconds when he crawled out of that pit and found Rey lying on the ground, I really thought they were going to do this. That we would see him take responsibility and go to trial for all his mistakes, and spend decades atoning for his sins knowing it would never be enough. That this would cement his turn to the light-side forever, with Rey's example of self-sacrifice. Maybe he would someday be free with supervision as a middle-aged, or even old, man, and could visit that stupid island and get a tounge-lashing followed by a bit of encouragement from force ghost Anakin. And frankly, making Rey a martyr was the first interesting thing they did with her in two movies. Aaand then she opened her eyes and started inexplicably throwing herself at him, and it was pretty clear they were going for a weird abridged Romeo and Juliet thing instead. Yay. Started rewatching the movies. Thought about starting from Ep 1 but I can't do it. The prequels really suck. They had their moments, the Jedi stuff but its overwhelmed by those stupid battle droids, Jar Jar, crappy CGI that hasn't aged well and the bad casting of Vader. An annoying little brat when he was young and then and emo teenager, but he improved in Ep3. So we just started with Rogue One and I just got done with New Hope. The new CGI stuff that Lucas added to that didn't age well either. Seeing Leia and Luke so young and naive was great. Then we have Luke's Bobby Sueness using the Force for the first time to guide a missile down a small hole to hit just the right spot on the death star to blow it up. My favorite, Empire, I'll watch tomorrow. Seeing Leia and Luke so young? I had my mind blown seeing Harrison Ford throw his weight around looking and acting like a teenage boy while realizing that the man was in his late thirties at the time. And I disagree with that last point. It's established throughout the first movie that Luke is an excellent low altitude pilot, and that that's his only really exceptional skill. He doesn't defeat anyone with his new lightsaber and isn't bullseyeing stormtroopers left and right or miraculously fixing complicated tech. Parrying that training droid, wrapping a grappling... clip? around a beam and firing those torpedoes are pretty much the only impressive things he does in the movie. He also has a line before the mission to blow up the Death Star that this specific task mirrors something he's done several times before, gently adjusting the trajectory of two missiles is nowhere near the crazypants stuff we see other first-timers do with the force, and he was actively being coached by a more experienced master while doing it. I remembered Luke as a Marty Stu as well, but rewatching A New Hope it's pretty clear that he's just a teenage country bumpkin whose only real skill happens to be exactly what's called for at the end as long as his allies are there to cover his back. Which is convenient, sure, but not technically Marty Stu shenanigans. Han and Leia both come off as more capable than he is in every situation except the one that specifically plays to his one area of expertise.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 4, 2020 13:08:36 GMT
I rewatched the previous movies and it's amazing much better a job a character development and setting up of the main protagonist and other characters was done in the two previous trilogies.
I'll break this down into things they all had in common.
Piloting
Luke had piloted a T-16 and dreamed of becoming a pilot in the future. When he talks to Obi-Wan after the sand people attack, Obi-Wan says I've heard you've become quite a pilot. Seeing that Obi-Wan did not talk to Luke's Aunt and Uncle regularly, Luke must have been known around those parts as being a good pilot. Even with all of that when Luke is with Han Solo, Han Solo tells him flying through space isn't like dusting crops, because Luke has no practical experience flying in space. Luke also almost kills himself on his firts attack run, as seasoned pilots were screaming at him to pull up because he was too close. He also talked about zeroing in on Wamp Rats in his T-16 which were about the size of the hole he was aiming for on the Death Star.
Anakin piloted the pod racer, as the only human that could do it. But even with that when he took his ship off auto pilot he tried to turn and completely lost control, eventually being shot down.
Rey was given no foundation in the context of the narrative that she was a good pilot, but she's able to pilot the Falcon flawlessly, pull of complex manuevers, and navigate space. No foundation or set up at all was given to Rey piloting any type of ship. She just could.
Technician Skills
Luke worked on a farm every day fixing droids and helping maintain and run the equipment. He was skilled enough that his Uncle said he couldn't afford to lose him, and that he needed to stay for one more harvest. Luke had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area.
Anakin worked in Watoo's learning how to fix, service and build things. He built C-3PO and a racing pod from leftover parts with what he had learned in the shop. Anakin had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area.
Rey's only shows skill was being able to recognize what parts might be worth money to trade in. Nothing about her ever working on ships, nothing about her building or fixing anything other than BB8's antenna.
Force
Luke makes active use of the force two times in A New Hope. On the Falcon under Obi-Wan's guidance after many failures, he connects with the force allowing him to reach out with his mind and block the blasts from the training droid. With Obi-Wan saying he's taken his first step towards a much largrer world. Then he calls on that same training later in the movie let the force guide his shot, while still being mentored by Obi-Wan.
Anakin makes no active use of the force in the Phantom Menace. Only passively, like when telling Mace Windu what was on the screen. He tells Qui-Gon that he can't hear or feel anything, and Qui-Gon says that he will once he learns to quiet his mind. Since everyone is forbidden to teach him until the end of the movie, he is never able to do it in the first film.
Rey uses pretty any force power she wants and light saber skills with absolutely no foundation in the context of the narrative. Same as with piloting, she just can.
I never really put much thought into Rey having the other skills and pretty much just gave her a pass on being a pilot and technician, but after thinking about it, anyone who calls this out has a legitimate complaint. Luke and Anakin had real foundation in the narrative for being able to do the things that they did.
Looking back at the other trilogies. The prequels for all its faults told the most coherent story over three movies of all three trilogies. An overarching narrative of how did the Empire come into power. First movie Palpatine creates a crisis on his home world and uses it, along with manipulating a young, naive queen to become Chancellor. Second movie he creates a galaxy wide conflict and controlling the minds of some senators to create a clone army, giving him the strongest force in the galaxy. The third movie he pulls it all together and turns it on the Jedi. Also, he had been grooming Anakin through the movies, learning his fears and desires as well as earning his trust. Which he uses to turn him to the dark side.
That newest trilogy is the complete opposite. Now foundation for anything, no overarching narrative, changes in direction with each movie. The characters are woefully underdeveloped. I mean, if you can give a main character (Poe) a backstory in the third movie you've done a poor job of writing up to that point.
You can't blame it all on Rian Johnson either. If JJ Abrams had laid any real groundwork in the first film, Johnson could not have taken as many liberties as he did telling his own version of the story. They collectively did a poor job writing and fleshing out the trilogy.
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Energizer Bunny 211
The world just opened up...l'm now hearing sounds that I haven't heard in quite some time!
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jan 4, 2020 14:07:20 GMT
I rewatched the previous movies and it's amazing much better a job a character development and setting up of the main protagonist and other characters was done in the two previous trilogies. I'll break this down into things they all had in common. PilotingLuke had piloted a T-16 and dreamed of becoming a pilot in the future. When he talks to Obi-Wan after the sand people attack, Obi-Wan says I've heard you've become quite a pilot. Seeing that Obi-Wan did not talk to Luke's Aunt and Uncle regularly, Luke must have been known around those parts as being a good pilot. Even with all of that when Luke is with Han Solo, Han Solo tells him flying through space isn't like dusting crops, because Luke has no practical experience flying in space. Luke also almost kills himself on his firts attack run, as seasoned pilots were screaming at him to pull up because he was too close. He also talked about zeroing in on Wamp Rats in his T-16 which were about the size of the hole he was aiming for on the Death Star. Anakin piloted the pod racer, as the only human that could do it. But even with that when he took his ship off auto pilot he tried to turn and completely lost control, eventually being shot down. Rey was given no foundation in the context of the narrative that she was a good pilot, but she's able to pilot the Falcon flawlessly, pull of complex manuevers, and navigate space. No foundation or set up at all was given to Rey piloting any type of ship. She just could. Technician SkillsLuke worked on a farm every day fixing droids and helping maintain and run the equipment. He was skilled enough that his Uncle said he couldn't afford to lose him, and that he needed to stay for one more harvest. Luke had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area. Anakin worked in Watoo's learning how to fix, service and build things. He built C-3PO and a racing pod from leftover parts with what he had learned in the shop. Anakin had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area. Rey's only shows skill was being able to recognize what parts might be worth money to trade in. Nothing about her ever working on ships, nothing about her building or fixing anything other than BB8's antenna. Force Luke makes active use of the force two times in A New Hope. On the Falcon under Obi-Wan's guidance after many failures, he connects with the force allowing him to reach out with his mind and block the blasts from the training droid. With Obi-Wan saying he's taken his first step towards a much largrer world. Then he calls on that same training later in the movie let the force guide his shot, while still being mentored by Obi-Wan. Anakin makes no active use of the force in the Phantom Menace. Only passively, like when telling Mace Windu what was on the screen. He tells Qui-Gon that he can't hear or feel anything, and Qui-Gon says that he will once he learns to quiet his mind. Since everyone is forbidden to teach him until the end of the movie, he is never able to do it in the first film. Rey uses pretty any force power she wants and light saber skills with absolutely no foundation in the context of the narrative. Same as with piloting, she just can. I never really put much thought into Rey having the other skills and pretty much just gave her a pass on being a pilot and technician, but after thinking about it, anyone who calls this out has a legitimate complaint. Luke and Anakin had real foundation in the narrative for being able to do the things that they did. Looking back at the other trilogies. The prequels for all its faults told the most coherent story over three movies of all three trilogies. An overarching narrative of how did the Empire come into power. First movie Palpatine creates a crisis on his home world and uses it, along with manipulating a young, naive queen to become Chancellor. Second movie he creates a galaxy wide conflict and controlling the minds of some senators to create a clone army, giving him the strongest force in the galaxy. The third movie he pulls it all together and turns it on the Jedi. Also, he had been grooming Anakin through the movies, learning his fears and desires as well as earning his trust. Which he uses to turn him to the dark side. That newest trilogy is the complete opposite. Now foundation for anything, no overarching narrative, changes in direction with each movie. The characters are woefully underdeveloped. I mean, if you can give a main character (Poe) a backstory in the third movie you've done a poor job of writing up to that point. You can't blame it all on Rian Johnson either. If JJ Abrams had laid any real groundwork in the first film, Johnson could not have taken as many liberties as he did telling his own version of the story. They collectively did a poor job writing and fleshing out the trilogy. I see your point. What you've said makes sense, however, it doesn't detract from my ability to enjoy any of the movies or cause me to now have a certain dislike for the franchise.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Jan 4, 2020 15:37:14 GMT
I see your point. What you've said makes sense, however, it doesn't detract from my ability to enjoy any of the movies or cause me to now have a certain dislike for the franchise.
I'm not trying to detract from anyone's enjoyment of the movie, or the franchise. If someone enjoys something in spite of the flaws, more power to them. It's when people try and act like the flaws aren't there, or tell someone else that they're wrong if they call out the flaws. That's what draws me into these discussions.
I'm not even asking for Oscar level writing, just basic character development. But more so, I really don't care how someone chooses to set their universe up. I'm willing to let a lot go. However, once you've established your universe, I fully expect you to follow what you've established. If being force sensitive has never been enough on its own, and you've needed training to use the force. Then there shouldn't be people running around using the force at advanced levels without any training merely to serve the plot. Hyperspace skipping, any of that stuff, that shouldn't be possible in the universe that has been established. Stuff like this bothers me more than anything.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 4, 2020 16:35:45 GMT
I rewatched the previous movies and it's amazing much better a job a character development and setting up of the main protagonist and other characters was done in the two previous trilogies. I'll break this down into things they all had in common. PilotingLuke had piloted a T-16 and dreamed of becoming a pilot in the future. When he talks to Obi-Wan after the sand people attack, Obi-Wan says I've heard you've become quite a pilot. Seeing that Obi-Wan did not talk to Luke's Aunt and Uncle regularly, Luke must have been known around those parts as being a good pilot. Even with all of that when Luke is with Han Solo, Han Solo tells him flying through space isn't like dusting crops, because Luke has no practical experience flying in space. Luke also almost kills himself on his firts attack run, as seasoned pilots were screaming at him to pull up because he was too close. He also talked about zeroing in on Wamp Rats in his T-16 which were about the size of the hole he was aiming for on the Death Star. Anakin piloted the pod racer, as the only human that could do it. But even with that when he took his ship off auto pilot he tried to turn and completely lost control, eventually being shot down. Rey was given no foundation in the context of the narrative that she was a good pilot, but she's able to pilot the Falcon flawlessly, pull of complex manuevers, and navigate space. No foundation or set up at all was given to Rey piloting any type of ship. She just could. Technician SkillsLuke worked on a farm every day fixing droids and helping maintain and run the equipment. He was skilled enough that his Uncle said he couldn't afford to lose him, and that he needed to stay for one more harvest. Luke had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area. Anakin worked in Watoo's learning how to fix, service and build things. He built C-3PO and a racing pod from leftover parts with what he had learned in the shop. Anakin had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area. Rey's only shows skill was being able to recognize what parts might be worth money to trade in. Nothing about her ever working on ships, nothing about her building or fixing anything other than BB8's antenna. Force Luke makes active use of the force two times in A New Hope. On the Falcon under Obi-Wan's guidance after many failures, he connects with the force allowing him to reach out with his mind and block the blasts from the training droid. With Obi-Wan saying he's taken his first step towards a much largrer world. Then he calls on that same training later in the movie let the force guide his shot, while still being mentored by Obi-Wan. Anakin makes no active use of the force in the Phantom Menace. Only passively, like when telling Mace Windu what was on the screen. He tells Qui-Gon that he can't hear or feel anything, and Qui-Gon says that he will once he learns to quiet his mind. Since everyone is forbidden to teach him until the end of the movie, he is never able to do it in the first film. Rey uses pretty any force power she wants and light saber skills with absolutely no foundation in the context of the narrative. Same as with piloting, she just can. I never really put much thought into Rey having the other skills and pretty much just gave her a pass on being a pilot and technician, but after thinking about it, anyone who calls this out has a legitimate complaint. Luke and Anakin had real foundation in the narrative for being able to do the things that they did. Looking back at the other trilogies. The prequels for all its faults told the most coherent story over three movies of all three trilogies. An overarching narrative of how did the Empire come into power. First movie Palpatine creates a crisis on his home world and uses it, along with manipulating a young, naive queen to become Chancellor. Second movie he creates a galaxy wide conflict and controlling the minds of some senators to create a clone army, giving him the strongest force in the galaxy. The third movie he pulls it all together and turns it on the Jedi. Also, he had been grooming Anakin through the movies, learning his fears and desires as well as earning his trust. Which he uses to turn him to the dark side. That newest trilogy is the complete opposite. Now foundation for anything, no overarching narrative, changes in direction with each movie. The characters are woefully underdeveloped. I mean, if you can give a main character (Poe) a backstory in the third movie you've done a poor job of writing up to that point. You can't blame it all on Rian Johnson either. If JJ Abrams had laid any real groundwork in the first film, Johnson could not have taken as many liberties as he did telling his own version of the story. They collectively did a poor job writing and fleshing out the trilogy. Rey's intentionally used Force powers from the beginning of TFA and the end of TLJ (which is max 10 days) are: - Resisting Kylo's Force mind probe (she succumbs to Snoke's in TLJ) - Force suggestion - Calling light saber to her (basic levitation/telekinesis) - Force powered/guided light saber attack (this is Rey's "use the Force" moment from TFA) - Multiple rock levitation (complex levitation/telekinesis) - the TLJ climax It's not that much, but it is enough to be annoyingly out-of-lore given her lack of ANY instruction from a mentor, especially the climactic fight with Kylo on Starkiller base. The new movies have a show-not-tell sensibility about them, so I don't mind so much that they didn't build in dialog to explicitly explain everything. Rey's piloting skills: When the Falcon takes off in TFA she clearly has trouble flying it. It slams into the sand a bunch of times, even after the initial rocky take-off, indicating she is a pilot but we don't know how capable she is. The complex maneuver she pulls off is in a Star Destroyer wreck she appears to be very familiar with - so Force premonition/instincts sort of explains her success there, as it explains Luke's and Anakin's exceptional piloting skills. Force powers: I said earlier that Rey is a fangirl of the original trilogy, and that this shows up in how she reacts to the main characters of the original trilogy and how she tries to use the force. The way I think about it is: imagine someone saw and enjoyed Star Wars episodes IV, V, and VI several times (Rey probably heard or read parts of the story from different sources), then suddenly realized the more incredible parts of that story were real, they themselves were in fact Force sensitive, and they were in a desperate situation. They might try a Force suggestion, or follow Kenobi's original suggestions to Luke to "use the Force", "let the Force flow through you", and "let go" as Luke does in the climax to Episode IV. As a viewer I personally didn't need explicit backstory on Rey's knowledge of the Force from stories, clearly she does have this information because that is how she behaves and what she does. Over arching theme: The theme of this new trilogy (and this is partially why I don't believe the rumors that Rian Johnson discarded all of JJ Abrams plot) is belief and faith in your fellow man - that you're not alone, and you can't do it all alone. This is why TLJ dropped the Resistance into a hole of despair where no one came to help them, so that idea could be played out to its eventual conclusion in RoS - civilians show up to help the Resistance, Jedi ghosts show up to support Rey.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 4, 2020 17:20:13 GMT
I rewatched the previous movies and it's amazing much better a job a character development and setting up of the main protagonist and other characters was done in the two previous trilogies. I'll break this down into things they all had in common. PilotingLuke had piloted a T-16 and dreamed of becoming a pilot in the future. When he talks to Obi-Wan after the sand people attack, Obi-Wan says I've heard you've become quite a pilot. Seeing that Obi-Wan did not talk to Luke's Aunt and Uncle regularly, Luke must have been known around those parts as being a good pilot. Even with all of that when Luke is with Han Solo, Han Solo tells him flying through space isn't like dusting crops, because Luke has no practical experience flying in space. Luke also almost kills himself on his firts attack run, as seasoned pilots were screaming at him to pull up because he was too close. He also talked about zeroing in on Wamp Rats in his T-16 which were about the size of the hole he was aiming for on the Death Star. Anakin piloted the pod racer, as the only human that could do it. But even with that when he took his ship off auto pilot he tried to turn and completely lost control, eventually being shot down. Rey was given no foundation in the context of the narrative that she was a good pilot, but she's able to pilot the Falcon flawlessly, pull of complex manuevers, and navigate space. No foundation or set up at all was given to Rey piloting any type of ship. She just could. Technician SkillsLuke worked on a farm every day fixing droids and helping maintain and run the equipment. He was skilled enough that his Uncle said he couldn't afford to lose him, and that he needed to stay for one more harvest. Luke had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area. Anakin worked in Watoo's learning how to fix, service and build things. He built C-3PO and a racing pod from leftover parts with what he had learned in the shop. Anakin had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area. Rey's only shows skill was being able to recognize what parts might be worth money to trade in. Nothing about her ever working on ships, nothing about her building or fixing anything other than BB8's antenna. Force Luke makes active use of the force two times in A New Hope. On the Falcon under Obi-Wan's guidance after many failures, he connects with the force allowing him to reach out with his mind and block the blasts from the training droid. With Obi-Wan saying he's taken his first step towards a much largrer world. Then he calls on that same training later in the movie let the force guide his shot, while still being mentored by Obi-Wan. Anakin makes no active use of the force in the Phantom Menace. Only passively, like when telling Mace Windu what was on the screen. He tells Qui-Gon that he can't hear or feel anything, and Qui-Gon says that he will once he learns to quiet his mind. Since everyone is forbidden to teach him until the end of the movie, he is never able to do it in the first film. Rey uses pretty any force power she wants and light saber skills with absolutely no foundation in the context of the narrative. Same as with piloting, she just can. I never really put much thought into Rey having the other skills and pretty much just gave her a pass on being a pilot and technician, but after thinking about it, anyone who calls this out has a legitimate complaint. Luke and Anakin had real foundation in the narrative for being able to do the things that they did. Looking back at the other trilogies. The prequels for all its faults told the most coherent story over three movies of all three trilogies. An overarching narrative of how did the Empire come into power. First movie Palpatine creates a crisis on his home world and uses it, along with manipulating a young, naive queen to become Chancellor. Second movie he creates a galaxy wide conflict and controlling the minds of some senators to create a clone army, giving him the strongest force in the galaxy. The third movie he pulls it all together and turns it on the Jedi. Also, he had been grooming Anakin through the movies, learning his fears and desires as well as earning his trust. Which he uses to turn him to the dark side. That newest trilogy is the complete opposite. Now foundation for anything, no overarching narrative, changes in direction with each movie. The characters are woefully underdeveloped. I mean, if you can give a main character (Poe) a backstory in the third movie you've done a poor job of writing up to that point. You can't blame it all on Rian Johnson either. If JJ Abrams had laid any real groundwork in the first film, Johnson could not have taken as many liberties as he did telling his own version of the story. They collectively did a poor job writing and fleshing out the trilogy. Rey's intentionally used Force powers from the beginning of TFA and the end of TLJ (which is max 10 days) are: - Resisting Kylo's Force mind probe (she succumbs to Snoke's in TLJ) - Force suggestion - Calling light saber to her (basic levitation/telekinesis) - Force powered/guided light saber attack (this is Rey's "use the Force" moment from TFA) - Multiple rock levitation (complex levitation/telekinesis) - the TLJ climax It's not that much, but it is enough to be annoyingly out-of-lore given her lack of ANY instruction from a mentor, especially the climactic fight with Kylo on Starkiller base. The new movies have a show-not-tell sensibility about them, so I don't mind so much that they didn't build in dialog to explicitly explain everything. Rey's piloting skills: When the Falcon takes off in TFA she clearly has trouble flying it. It slams into the sand a bunch of times, even after the initial rocky take-off, indicating she is a pilot but we don't know how capable she is. The complex maneuver she pulls off is in a Star Destroyer wreck she appears to be very familiar with - so Force premonition/instincts sort of explains her success there, as it explains Luke's and Anakin's exceptional piloting skills. Force powers: I said earlier that Rey is a fangirl of the original trilogy, and that this shows up in how she reacts to the main characters of the original trilogy and how she tries to use the force. The way I think about it is: imagine someone saw and enjoyed Star Wars episodes IV, V, and VI several times (Rey probably heard or read parts of the story from different sources), then suddenly realized the more incredible parts of that story were real, they themselves were in fact Force sensitive, and they were in a desperate situation. They might try a Force suggestion, or follow Kenobi's original suggestions to Luke to "use the Force", "let the Force flow through you", and "let go" as Luke does in the climax to Episode IV. As a viewer I personally didn't need explicit backstory on Rey's knowledge of the Force from stories, clearly she does have this information because that is how she behaves and what she does. Over arching theme: The theme of this new trilogy (and this is partially why I don't believe the rumors that Rian Johnson discarded all of JJ Abrams plot) is belief and faith in your fellow man - that you're not alone, and you can't do it all alone. This is why TLJ dropped the Resistance into a hole of despair where no one came to help them, so that ideacould be played out to its eventual conclusion in RoS - civilians show up to help the Resistance, Jedi ghosts show up to support Rey.
When Anakin first meets Qui-Gon he recognizes a lightsaber, and says only Jedi use those kinds of weapons, and that no one can kill a Jedi. He lived in a time where Jedi where at their height and knew what they could. If he just didn't start using force powers after being conceived by the force, it shouldn't be possible.
People keep trying to downplay what Rey because it can't be justified. She didn't lift some rocks, she pretty much cleared an avalanche, and cave in. Boulders. She not only protected her mind from someone who had been trained by Luke and Snoke, but she also read his mind through any resistance he may have. Then she controlled someone else's mind. These aren't just throwaway skills like people are trying to make them seem. You keep saying basic. Yeah, basic for someone who is training in the ways of the force. Not someone who has never used it.
Light saber fighting is a skill, not just force dependent and she had no previous skill with one. Dooku in attack of the clones after he tries to throw things at Yoda says this isn't going to be decided by our knowledge of the force (implying that knowledge of the force is needed to levitate and move objects), but our skill with a lightsaber ( meaning that lightsaber fighting is a separate skill from simply using the force). Rey had experience in neither area.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 4, 2020 17:26:29 GMT
The guy was blowing up planets with the First Order. If Kylo ever left, I'm not sure what fans expected other than a life sentence or execution. Kylo, like Vader, had no happily ever after awaiting his redemption. For just a few seconds when he crawled out of that pit and found Rey lying on the ground, I really thought they were going to do this. That we would see him take responsibility and go to trial for all his mistakes, and spend decades atoning for his sins knowing it would never be enough. That this would cement his turn to the light-side forever, with Rey's example of self-sacrifice. Maybe he would someday be free with supervision as a middle-aged, or even old, man, and could visit that stupid island and get a tounge-lashing followed by a bit of encouragement from force ghost Anakin. And frankly, making Rey a martyr was the first interesting thing they did with her in two movies. Aaand then she opened her eyes and started inexplicably throwing herself at him, and it was pretty clear they were going for a weird abridged Romeo and Juliet thing instead. Yay. Started rewatching the movies. Thought about starting from Ep 1 but I can't do it. The prequels really suck. They had their moments, the Jedi stuff but its overwhelmed by those stupid battle droids, Jar Jar, crappy CGI that hasn't aged well and the bad casting of Vader. An annoying little brat when he was young and then and emo teenager, but he improved in Ep3. So we just started with Rogue One and I just got done with New Hope. The new CGI stuff that Lucas added to that didn't age well either. Seeing Leia and Luke so young and naive was great. Then we have Luke's Bobby Sueness using the Force for the first time to guide a missile down a small hole to hit just the right spot on the death star to blow it up. My favorite, Empire, I'll watch tomorrow. Seeing Leia and Luke so young? I had my mind blown seeing Harrison Ford throw his weight around looking and acting like a teenage boy while realizing that the man was in his late thirties at the time. And I disagree with that last point. It's established throughout the first movie that Luke is an excellent low altitude pilot, and that that's his only really exceptional skill. He doesn't defeat anyone with his new lightsaber and isn't bullseyeing stormtroopers left and right or miraculously fixing complicated tech. Parrying that training droid, wrapping a grappling... clip? around a beam and firing those torpedoes are pretty much the only impressive things he does in the movie. He also has a line before the mission to blow up the Death Star that this specific task mirrors something he's done several times before, gently adjusting the trajectory of two missiles is nowhere near the crazypants stuff we see other first-timers do with the force, and he was actively being coached by a more experienced master while doing it. I remembered Luke as a Marty Stu as well, but rewatching A New Hope it's pretty clear that he's just a teenage country bumpkin whose only real skill happens to be exactly what's called for at the end as long as his allies are there to cover his back. Which is convenient, sure, but not technically Marty Stu shenanigans. Han and Leia both come off as more capable than he is in every situation except the one that specifically plays to his one area of expertise. Han, Leia, and even Artoo pretty much carried Luke through the Death Star.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 4, 2020 17:35:55 GMT
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Post by skekSil on Jan 4, 2020 17:40:33 GMT
And I disagree with that last point. It's established throughout the first movie that Luke is an excellent low altitude pilot, and that that's his only really exceptional skill. ... He also has a line before the mission to blow up the Death Star that this specific task mirrors something he's done several times before He also talked about zeroing in on Wamp Rats in his T-16 which were about the size of the hole he was aiming for on the Death Star. And he didnt use his skill there , he relied on Force to get a hit. Anakin piloted the pod racer, as the only human that could do it. Anakin worked in Watoo's learning how to fix, service and build things. He built C-3PO and a racing pod from leftover parts with what he had learned in the shop. Anakin had a solid foundation for having aptitude in this area. A 9 year old slave boy who can build a droid and a pod-racer from scrap and the only himan being capable of flying one? Aint he a Marty Stu? gently adjusting the trajectory of two missiles is nowhere near the crazypants stuff we see other first-timers do with the force, and he was actively being coached by a more experienced master while doing it. Then he calls on that same training later in the movie let the force guide his shot, while still being mentored by Obi-Wan. He was encoraged by Obi-Wan to use the Force, calling it "being coached while doing it" is IMO a stretch. Anakin makes no active use of the force in the Phantom Menace. Only passively, like when telling Mace Windu what was on the screen. And he is the only human tha can pilot pod racer. So, in other words, he already uses Force. I never really put much thought into Rey having the other skills and pretty much just gave her a pass on being a pilot and technician, but after thinking about it, anyone who calls this out has a legitimate complaint. Luke and Anakin had real foundation in the narrative for being able to do the things that they did. And my counter argument is that all previous movies establish that piloting and fixing stuff is not a big deal in SW galaxy. Again, we have a 9 year old boy who can buld robots, flying cars and can fly spaceships. Can you build a droid? Can you build a Pod racer? Maybe Roomba? Ford T? I can't. Yet no one bats an eye. Ye, he is a gifted kid, but not "Oh my god this genious kid built a Formula One car from scrapyard parts!" Liea was helping fix millenium Falcon whle hiding in asteoid. How many princesses on our planet do you think can fix a wall socket? Piloting and fixing stuff is as trivial in SW as driving a car or repairing water plumbing under a sink. Can you even remeber a character that was defenitely unable to pilot a ship? Edit: OK, except Finn. Edit 2: Actually, nevermind. Looks like he can too.
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 4, 2020 17:43:34 GMT
I'll post this canon book again. Before the Awakening How Rey knows mechanical skills and basic piloting skills.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 4, 2020 17:45:39 GMT
Rey's intentionally used Force powers from the beginning of TFA and the end of TLJ (which is max 10 days) are: - Resisting Kylo's Force mind probe (she succumbs to Snoke's in TLJ) - Force suggestion - Calling light saber to her (basic levitation/telekinesis) - Force powered/guided light saber attack (this is Rey's "use the Force" moment from TFA) - Multiple rock levitation (complex levitation/telekinesis) - the TLJ climax It's not that much, but it is enough to be annoyingly out-of-lore given her lack of ANY instruction from a mentor, especially the climactic fight with Kylo on Starkiller base. The new movies have a show-not-tell sensibility about them, so I don't mind so much that they didn't build in dialog to explicitly explain everything. Rey's piloting skills: When the Falcon takes off in TFA she clearly has trouble flying it. It slams into the sand a bunch of times, even after the initial rocky take-off, indicating she is a pilot but we don't know how capable she is. The complex maneuver she pulls off is in a Star Destroyer wreck she appears to be very familiar with - so Force premonition/instincts sort of explains her success there, as it explains Luke's and Anakin's exceptional piloting skills. Force powers: I said earlier that Rey is a fangirl of the original trilogy, and that this shows up in how she reacts to the main characters of the original trilogy and how she tries to use the force. The way I think about it is: imagine someone saw and enjoyed Star Wars episodes IV, V, and VI several times (Rey probably heard or read parts of the story from different sources), then suddenly realized the more incredible parts of that story were real, they themselves were in fact Force sensitive, and they were in a desperate situation. They might try a Force suggestion, or follow Kenobi's original suggestions to Luke to "use the Force", "let the Force flow through you", and "let go" as Luke does in the climax to Episode IV. As a viewer I personally didn't need explicit backstory on Rey's knowledge of the Force from stories, clearly she does have this information because that is how she behaves and what she does. Over arching theme: The theme of this new trilogy (and this is partially why I don't believe the rumors that Rian Johnson discarded all of JJ Abrams plot) is belief and faith in your fellow man - that you're not alone, and you can't do it all alone. This is why TLJ dropped the Resistance into a hole of despair where no one came to help them, so that ideacould be played out to its eventual conclusion in RoS - civilians show up to help the Resistance, Jedi ghosts show up to support Rey. When Anakin first meets Qui-Gon he recognizes a lightsaber, and says only Jedi use those kinds of weapons, and that no one can kill a Jedi. He lived in a time where Jedi where at their height and knew what they could. If he just didn't start using force powers after being conceived by the force, it shouldn't be possible. People keep trying to downplay what Rey because it can't be justified. She didn't lift some rocks, she pretty much cleared an avalanche, and cave in. Boulders. She not only protected her mind from someone who had been trained by Luke and Snoke, but she also read his mind through any resistance he may have. Then she controlled someone else's mind. These aren't just throwaway skills like people are trying to make them seem. You keep saying basic. Yeah, basic for someone who is training in the ways of the force. Not someone who has never used it.
Light saber fighting is a skill, not just force dependent and she had no previous skill with one. Dooku in attack of the clones after he tries to throw things at Yoda says this isn't going to be decided by our knowledge of the force (implying that knowledge of the force is needed to levitate and move objects), but our skill with a lightsaber (meaning that lightsaber fighting is a separate skill from simply using the force). Rey had experience in neither area.
Only thing I referred to as "basic" was pulling the light saber to her at the end of TFA, and that was to distinguish it from the "complex" rock levitation she does at the end of TLJ. To me the only thing that is difficult to justify is the mind trick - that's not a simple skill even if she knew to try it. Best answer I have is that her intuitive reaction to Kylo's mind probe gave her extra insight into how mental Force powers worked. Others have already brought up the fact that Rey is in fact a skilled hand-to-hand combatant as seen in her initial meeting with Finn, that Kylo was badly wounded and suffering blood loss when he fought Rey, Kylo had also been hit by Finn who was also not trained in light saber, and was surprised by Rey's Force fueled forceful assault. Just because Dooku says "skill with a light saber" doesn't mean it isn't a Force power or Force enhanced. The whole idea about using the Force by letting it flow through you is that it can guide you, even in light saber combat.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 4, 2020 18:16:00 GMT
Rey's intentionally used Force powers from the beginning of TFA and the end of TLJ (which is max 10 days) are: - Resisting Kylo's Force mind probe (she succumbs to Snoke's in TLJ) - Force suggestion - Calling light saber to her (basic levitation/telekinesis) - Force powered/guided light saber attack (this is Rey's "use the Force" moment from TFA) - Multiple rock levitation (complex levitation/telekinesis) - the TLJ climax It's not that much, but it is enough to be annoyingly out-of-lore given her lack of ANY instruction from a mentor, especially the climactic fight with Kylo on Starkiller base. The new movies have a show-not-tell sensibility about them, so I don't mind so much that they didn't build in dialog to explicitly explain everything. Rey's piloting skills: When the Falcon takes off in TFA she clearly has trouble flying it. It slams into the sand a bunch of times, even after the initial rocky take-off, indicating she is a pilot but we don't know how capable she is. The complex maneuver she pulls off is in a Star Destroyer wreck she appears to be very familiar with - so Force premonition/instincts sort of explains her success there, as it explains Luke's and Anakin's exceptional piloting skills. Force powers: I said earlier that Rey is a fangirl of the original trilogy, and that this shows up in how she reacts to the main characters of the original trilogy and how she tries to use the force. The way I think about it is: imagine someone saw and enjoyed Star Wars episodes IV, V, and VI several times (Rey probably heard or read parts of the story from different sources), then suddenly realized the more incredible parts of that story were real, they themselves were in fact Force sensitive, and they were in a desperate situation. They might try a Force suggestion, or follow Kenobi's original suggestions to Luke to "use the Force", "let the Force flow through you", and "let go" as Luke does in the climax to Episode IV. As a viewer I personally didn't need explicit backstory on Rey's knowledge of the Force from stories, clearly she does have this information because that is how she behaves and what she does. I'd argue that the problem with her piloting isn't just the lack of explicit setup. We first see her crawling around a downed Star Destroyer, and then looking wistfully at starships ascending in the distance while playing with a too-big old pilot's helmet. And then we find out that while she dreams of traveling the stars, her major objective is and always has been to stay right where she is. And this happens after we find out that Finn can't fly even though he's military-trained, reinforcing that it's not something you just assume someone can. Keeping all that in mind, I certainly didn't expect her to be a trained pilot when first watching the movie. That said, Daisy's acting in that scene does a good job of conveying that it's not effortless by any stretch. She obviously feels overwhelmed and is mostly improvising, and when she comes out of the cockpit it's clear that she's amazed she didn't just kill both Finn and herself with that last maneuver, making it seem more like luck and passive force intuition than out-of-nowhere expert piloting skill. That helps. I have mixed feelings about your thoughts on her and the Force. I agree that that's pretty much how they've written her, and the least offensive way to think about the whole situation. But I also abjectly hate the implication about how simple and easy it is to control the Force then, as long as you can channel your inner Jedi fanboy. The goddamn Force. Even rudimentary understanding, let alone control, has always required meditation and instruction, clarity of mind, focus, none of which Rey has. Even the examples of children or the untrained human using the Force have always been a matter of instinct, knee-jerk reactions in moments of crises or emotional turmoil. And that isn't how Rey using hers is portrayed. In her case she simply consciously decides that "I'd like to use the Force to do this", and then she just does it after a few tries at the most. And does it better than an experienced Force user who has been doing it for a decade trained by the very people she only heard stories about. That's just wrong. Anakin was a Jedi fanboy too, remember, and far more reckless with his abilities than she is. If he could have called on the Force that easily and naturally without training, Tattoine would have been a molten rock floating in space by the time of TPM.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 4, 2020 18:23:42 GMT
Han, Leia, and even Artoo pretty much carried Luke through the Death Star. I am pretty sure it was Luke who carried Leia on Death Star Everyone on Death Star hade their minute of shining. Luke proposed to use Chewie as prisoner, comanded droids actions and grappled him and Leia over the chasm. Leia led them to compactor to escape from the pursuit and Han scared away those stormtroopers. Chewie on the other hand didn't do anything outsanding. Guess this is why he didn't get the medal.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 4, 2020 19:20:08 GMT
Han, Leia, and even Artoo pretty much carried Luke through the Death Star. I am pretty sure it was Luke who carried Leia on Death Star Everyone on Death Star hade their minute of shining. Luke proposed to use Chewie as prisoner, comanded droids actions and grappled him and Leia over the chasm. Leia led them to compactor to escape from the pursuit and Han scared away those stormtroopers. Chewie on the other hand didn't do anything outsanding. Guess this is why he didn't get the medal. Sure everyone had their moments to shine. But when you look at the fights they got into, Luke was probably the least competent, barring Threepio. Luke was mostly the idea man.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 4, 2020 19:38:12 GMT
I've acknowledged that flying the Falcon was the most 'Sueish' thing she did...
But it's also the most Stuish thing Anakin and Luke did too in their respective movies.
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