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Post by colfoley on Jan 5, 2020 23:38:15 GMT
Again there was, everything I bought up was in the movie...except for the flight sim thing which was bought up in a supplemental book...much like Luke's training that justifies the Death Star trench run. As far as Anakin is concerned he was using the Force. It's the only way to justify the events in TPM...or the Force was using him...otherwise hes a Stu. Obviously being shot down in the exact location he needed to be to blow up the reactor is suspect to say the least. But doesn't change the fact that he didn't actively use the force during that battle or at any other time in the movie. He was conceived by the force, and had the greatest potential of any of the protagonists in all the trilogies, and he couldn't even use his power until he received some training. which is why I clarified my statement. Anakin was passively using the Force or the Force was using him. Just like Rey. It's the only logical explanation.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 5, 2020 23:45:36 GMT
2) Anakin pod racing isn't actively using the force. It's a trait of having good reflexes that comes with being force sensitive. Qui-Gon says it in the movie. "He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes" Qui-Gon Jinn Isn't that using the Force without training? 3) I can't even believe you brought this up. Luke when he's going down the trench hears Obi-Wans voice when he closes his eyes telling to him reach out with the force. The same way he did earlier in the movie when he was practicing with Obi-wan on the Falcon. Then when he opened his eyes, he turns off his targeting computer and uses the force. This is clear example of what I talking about earlier. So Obi-Wan tells him to use the Force and Luke uses it, where is the contradiction? Its not shown that Obi-Wan helps him in any other way in that scene,he just tells him to use it. And all the training he had up to that point was a short lesson on Millenium Falcon. Qui-gon said it is a Jedi trait. A product of being force sensitive. It's no different than someone who is naturally athletic, but needs training to play a specific sport. You do go out trying to be athletic, you just are. After he leaves the temple he tells Qui-gon something along the lines that the force is supposed to speak to people, but he doesn't hear anything, and Qui-Gon says when you learn to quiet your mind, you will. IE, once you've had training. Which brings me to Luke, who was force sensitive and was still failing at the target droid until Obi-Wan gave him instructions. Then he was able to use the force and said he could actually feel something. Then later on he hears Obi-Wan's voice telling him the same thing he told him on the Falcon. So if he was able to connect the dots so to speak on the Falcon, why wouldn't he be able to do it in the trench as well?
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Post by cypherj on Jan 5, 2020 23:52:40 GMT
Obviously being shot down in the exact location he needed to be to blow up the reactor is suspect to say the least. But doesn't change the fact that he didn't actively use the force during that battle or at any other time in the movie. He was conceived by the force, and had the greatest potential of any of the protagonists in all the trilogies, and he couldn't even use his power until he received some training. which is why I clarified my statement. Anakin was passively using the Force or the Force was using him. Just like Rey. It's the only logical explanation. How? Qui-gon told him to hide in the cockpit. Was the force using Qui-gon? Then when the battle started, Naboo defense systems sent all the ships into the battle. Was the force driving the Naboo defense system? He was shot down by the enemy. This was the will of the force, that caused the enemy to shoot him down? Then he shot the reactor. That's it. You don't need the force to pull a trigger. The force did not out of nowhere infuse him with a great amount of power that allowed him to just go out and dominate the situation. The two situations are apples and oranges.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 5, 2020 23:56:47 GMT
"He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes" Qui-Gon Jinn Isn't that using the Force without training?So Obi-Wan tells him to use the Force and Luke uses it, where is the contradiction? Its not shown that Obi-Wan helps him in any other way in that scene,he just tells him to use it. And all the training he had up to that point was a short lesson on Millenium Falcon. Qui-gon said it is a Jedi trait. A product of being force sensitive. It's no different than someone who is naturally athletic, but needs training to play a specific sport. You do go out trying to be athletic, you just are. After he leaves the temple he tells Qui-gon something along the lines that the force is supposed to speak to people, but he doesn't hear anything, and Qui-Gon says when you learn to quiet your mind, you will. IE, once you've had training. Which brings me to Luke, who was force sensitive and was still failing at the target droid until Obi-Wan gave him instructions. Then he was able to use the force and said he could actually feel something. Then later on he hears Obi-Wan's voice telling him the same thing he told him on the Falcon. So if he was able to connect the dots so to speak on the Falcon, why wouldn't he be able to do it in the trench as well? Why can't Rey connect those dots too? Is she dumb?
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 0:03:17 GMT
TESB takes place 2 years after ANH and that timeline was established by Lucas nearly 4 decades ago. Luke the son of force Jesus who was stated by WoG to have the same potential as Anakin struggled to accomplish the feat while Rey effortlessly pulled Anakin's saber from Kylo's hand with no effort after only recently discovering the force was real. Pre TRoS Rey is a fantastical character. These are all fantastical characters. Luke and Anakin look pedestrian after Rey's feats placed her in the beyond fantastical tier of fantastical protagonists. You call Anakin a Gary Stu for being a good pilot but we see in film that his pod racing skills, and mechanical background contributed greatly to his performance at the battle of naboo, while George already hinted at Luke's piloting skills through character statements, and an easter egg in the pic that reveals what Luke's T-16 ship looked like. Compare that to Rey who is given no explanation as to how she effortlessly piloted a ship with an asymmetricral cockpit that she never piloted before beyond "Lmao the force".
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Post by cypherj on Jan 6, 2020 0:05:09 GMT
Qui-gon said it is a Jedi trait. A product of being force sensitive. It's no different than someone who is naturally athletic, but needs training to play a specific sport. You do go out trying to be athletic, you just are. After he leaves the temple he tells Qui-gon something along the lines that the force is supposed to speak to people, but he doesn't hear anything, and Qui-Gon says when you learn to quiet your mind, you will. IE, once you've had training. Which brings me to Luke, who was force sensitive and was still failing at the target droid until Obi-Wan gave him instructions. Then he was able to use the force and said he could actually feel something. Then later on he hears Obi-Wan's voice telling him the same thing he told him on the Falcon. So if he was able to connect the dots so to speak on the Falcon, why wouldn't he be able to do it in the trench as well? Why can't Rey connect those dots too? Is she dumb? She didn't have anyone giving her dots to connect and telling her how to connect them. She just closed her eyes and activated beast mode. Point is, when Luke used the force in the trench, there was explanation in the narrative, and groundwork laid earlier in the film. If someone asks where did Luke learn to do this, you can walk the through what happened in the film. From the lesson on the Falcon, to when Obi-Wan died and started talking to Luke through the force telling him to escape on the Death Star. Obi-Wan even eluded to being more powerful in death when he warned Vader. Nothing just came out of nowhere. Rey, as I said. Just closed her eyes and activated beast mode.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 6, 2020 0:38:36 GMT
Why can't Rey connect those dots too? Is she dumb? She didn't have anyone giving her dots to connect and telling her how to connect them. She just closed her eyes and activated beast mode. Point is, when Luke used the force in the trench, there was explanation in the narrative, and groundwork laid earlier in the film. If someone asks where did Luke learn to do this, you can walk the through what happened in the film. From the lesson on the Falcon, to when Obi-Wan died and started talking to Luke through the force telling him to escape on the Death Star. Obi-Wan even eluded to being more powerful in death when he warned Vader. Nothing just came out of nowhere. Rey, as I said. Just closed her eyes and activated beast mode. Rei was instructed by Maz Kanata, herself Force sensetive, how to "feel the Force" or in the words of Qui-Gon "quiet the mind" i suppose. She then had a chance to practice while trying to defend against Kylo's mind probe. If we extend your analogy to , say, swimming, Anakin was seen as a prodigy from a young age and attended specialised school for future olympic swimmers, Luke had a short course when he was recruited to marines and Rei had to learn John Wayne style or die.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 0:40:44 GMT
These are all fantastical characters. Luke and Anakin look pedestrian after Rey's feats placed her in the beyond fantastical tier of fantastical protagonists. You call Anakin a Gary Stu for being a good pilot but we see in film that his pod racing skills, and mechanical background contributed greatly to his performance at the battle of naboo, while George already hinted at Luke's piloting skills through character statements, and an easter egg in the pic that reveals what Luke's T-16 ship looked like. Compare that to Rey who is given no explanation as to how she effortlessly piloted a ship with an asymmetricral cockpit that she never piloted before beyond "Lmao the force". I didn't call Anakin a Gary Stu. Only if the force wasn't with him. Though he is the most 'Stuish' of the three. She is given as much explanation as Luke is. Why can't Rey connect those dots too? Is she dumb? She didn't have anyone giving her dots to connect and telling her how to connect them. She just closed her eyes and activated beast mode. Point is, when Luke used the force in the trench, there was explanation in the narrative, and groundwork laid earlier in the film. If someone asks where did Luke learn to do this, you can walk the through what happened in the film. From the lesson on the Falcon, to when Obi-Wan died and started talking to Luke through the force telling him to escape on the Death Star. Obi-Wan even eluded to being more powerful in death when he warned Vader. Nothing just came out of nowhere. Rey, as I said. Just closed her eyes and activated beast mode. Kylo Ren did. Twice. Her own experiences did. You just seem to think Rey is stupid for some reason.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 6, 2020 1:19:11 GMT
She is given as much explanation as Luke is. Kylo Ren did. Twice. Her own experiences did. You just seem to think Rey is stupid for some reason. No, she isn't. Not a word is said about flight sims or her having worked on the Falcon or having received anything whatsoever from Kylo beyond what she immediately reacts to in the scene where it happens. Everything "explaining" her skill is something we've been told afterward, and not even in the actual movies. Luke's one skill is referenced beforehand several times in the actual movie before we see it, specifically so that it doesn't look weird and distracting when the moisture farmer kid suddenly crawls into an X-wing and outflies squads of both Rebellion and Imperial fighters. The average movie-goer is never going to follow J.J. Abrams on Twitter to get his thoughts about his own movie's internal workings, or read a star wars novel of all things. For the average movie-goer and even the average Star Wars fan, Rey manifests one skill after the other out of thin air and they never find out why. Even if Rey's skillset was consistent with the setting, which it absolutely isn't, that's piss-poor storytelling. And I call utter bullshit on the notion that having practiced defending yourself with a quarterstaff would ever somehow translate into fencing skill, or that scavenging tech translates into engineering spaceships. That's literally saying that you can learn rocket science from pulling plugs and removing screws. It's offensively dumb. And nobody is assuming that Rey is stupid. People are just looking at the canonical fact that the Force is difficult and complicated to use for your own purposes even for those with unusual power over it. That's always been the case, and supposedly still more or less is when looking at every other character but Rey, for reasons that are never even alluded to in the actual movies.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 1:45:32 GMT
She is given as much explanation as Luke is. Kylo Ren did. Twice. Her own experiences did. You just seem to think Rey is stupid for some reason. No, she isn't. Not a word is said about flight sims or her having worked on the Falcon or having received anything whatsoever from Kylo beyond what she immediately reacts to in the scene where it happens. Everything "explaining" her skill is something we've been told afterward, and not even in the actual movies. Luke's one skill is referenced beforehand several times in the actual movie before we see it, specifically so that it doesn't look weird and distracting when the moisture farmer kid suddenly crawls into an X-wing and outflies squads of both Rebellion and Imperial fighters. The average movie-goer is never going to follow J.J. Abrams on Twitter to get his thoughts about his own movie's internal workings, or read a star wars novel of all things. For the average movie-goer and even the average Star Wars fan, Rey manifests one skill after the other out of thin air and they never find out why. Even if Rey's skillset was consistent with the setting, which it absolutely isn't, that's piss-poor storytelling. And I call utter bullshit on the notion that having practiced defending yourself with a quarterstaff would ever somehow translate into fencing skill, or that scavenging tech translates into engineering spaceships. That's literally saying that you can learn rocket science from pulling plugs and removing screws. It's offensively dumb. And nobody is assuming that Rey is stupid. People are just looking at the canonical fact that the Force is difficult and complicated to use for your own purposes even for those with unusual power over it. That's always been the case, and supposedly still more or less is when looking at every other character but Rey, for reasons that are never even alluded to in the actual movies. I can honestly say that I remember the first time I saw A New Hope, and Luke flying the X-Wing at the finale did not make ANY sense. I think Han or someone said Luke's experience dusting crops wasn't anything like space flight, pretty sure it was nothing like flying a fighter either. Basically my thought was, "He can what?" then the sequence started and I pretty much forgot about the disconnect cuz MOVIE AWESOME.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 1:49:49 GMT
She is given as much explanation as Luke is. Kylo Ren did. Twice. Her own experiences did. You just seem to think Rey is stupid for some reason. No, she isn't. Not a word is said about flight sims or her having worked on the Falcon or having received anything whatsoever from Kylo beyond what she immediately reacts to in the scene where it happens. Everything "explaining" her skill is something we've been told afterward, and not even in the actual movies. Luke's one skill is referenced beforehand several times in the actual movie before we see it, specifically so that it doesn't look weird and distracting when the moisture farmer kid suddenly crawls into an X-wing and outflies squads of both Rebellion and Imperial fighters. The average movie-goer is never going to follow J.J. Abrams on Twitter to get his thoughts about his own movie's internal workings, or read a star wars novel of all things. For the average movie-goer and even the average Star Wars fan, Rey manifests one skill after the other out of thin air and they never find out why. Even if Rey's skillset was consistent with the setting, which it absolutely isn't, that's piss-poor storytelling. And I call utter bullshit on the notion that having practiced defending yourself with a quarterstaff would ever somehow translate into fencing skill, or that scavenging tech translates into engineering spaceships. That's literally saying that you can learn rocket science from pulling plugs and removing screws. It's offensively dumb. And nobody is assuming that Rey is stupid. People are just looking at the canonical fact that the Force is difficult and complicated to use for your own purposes even for those with unusual power over it. That's always been the case, and supposedly still more or less is when looking at every other character but Rey, for reasons that are never even alluded to in the actual movies. So you want to be told and not shown? Maybe you're right that the average needs that information but I've always been told that is bad writing. It still is weird even with that. To your own analogy that's like saying someone who flies a sesna should be able to fly an F-16 IN COMBAT. The first time. For the record this DOES NOT bother me. I want to make that clear but to say Rey's flying the Falcon is universally inconsistent when you have Luke...and Anakin which I personally find way more absurd....is silly. They all had about the same amount of training, they all had similar circumstances, yet Rey is the only one who gets complained about. Its weird. It doesen't. Go rewatch the fight (or the fight against the Praetorian guard for that matter) she doesen't show real skill with a lightsaber till episode 9. But it's not like she's a complete dunce with the concept either, she does just enough to survive.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 1:52:30 GMT
No, she isn't. Not a word is said about flight sims or her having worked on the Falcon or having received anything whatsoever from Kylo beyond what she immediately reacts to in the scene where it happens. Everything "explaining" her skill is something we've been told afterward, and not even in the actual movies.
Luke's one skill is referenced beforehand several times in the actual movie before we see it, specifically so that it doesn't look weird and distracting when the moisture farmer kid suddenly crawls into an X-wing and outflies squads of both Rebellion and Imperial fighters.
The average movie-goer is never going to follow J.J. Abrams on Twitter to get his thoughts about his own movie's internal workings, or read a star wars novel of all things. For the average movie-goer and even the average Star Wars fan, Rey manifests one skill after the other out of thin air and they never find out why. Even if Rey's skillset was consistent with the setting, which it absolutely isn't, that's piss-poor storytelling.
And I call utter bullshit on the notion that having practiced defending yourself with a quarterstaff would ever somehow translate into fencing skill, or that scavenging tech translates into engineering spaceships. That's literally saying that you can learn rocket science from pulling plugs and removing screws. It's offensively dumb.
And nobody is assuming that Rey is stupid. People are just looking at the canonical fact that the Force is difficult and complicated to use for your own purposes even for those with unusual power over it. That's always been the case, and supposedly still more or less is when looking at every other character but Rey, for reasons that are never even alluded to in the actual movies.
I can honestly say that I remember the first time I saw A New Hope, and Luke flying the X-Wing at the finale did not make ANY sense. I think Han or someone said Luke's experience dusting crops wasn't anything like space flight, pretty sure it was nothing like flying a fighter either. Basically my thought was, "He can what?" then the sequence started and I pretty much forgot about the disconnect cuz MOVIE AWESOME. Rule of cool can work too. Just if we're going to call bull shit on Rey and not call into question Luke's equally absurd...or Anakin's way more absurd...feats is...again weird.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 6, 2020 1:58:58 GMT
No, she isn't. Not a word is said about flight sims or her having worked on the Falcon or having received anything whatsoever from Kylo beyond what she immediately reacts to in the scene where it happens. Everything "explaining" her skill is something we've been told afterward, and not even in the actual movies. Luke's one skill is referenced beforehand several times in the actual movie before we see it, specifically so that it doesn't look weird and distracting when the moisture farmer kid suddenly crawls into an X-wing and outflies squads of both Rebellion and Imperial fighters. The average movie-goer is never going to follow J.J. Abrams on Twitter to get his thoughts about his own movie's internal workings, or read a star wars novel of all things. For the average movie-goer and even the average Star Wars fan, Rey manifests one skill after the other out of thin air and they never find out why. Even if Rey's skillset was consistent with the setting, which it absolutely isn't, that's piss-poor storytelling. And I call utter bullshit on the notion that having practiced defending yourself with a quarterstaff would ever somehow translate into fencing skill, or that scavenging tech translates into engineering spaceships. That's literally saying that you can learn rocket science from pulling plugs and removing screws. It's offensively dumb. And nobody is assuming that Rey is stupid. People are just looking at the canonical fact that the Force is difficult and complicated to use for your own purposes even for those with unusual power over it. That's always been the case, and supposedly still more or less is when looking at every other character but Rey, for reasons that are never even alluded to in the actual movies. So you want to be told and not shown? Maybe you're right that the average needs that information but I've always been told that is bad writing.It still is weird even with that. To your own analogy that's like saying someone who flies a sesna should be able to fly an F-16 IN COMBAT. The first time. For the record this DOES NOT bother me. I want to make that clear but to say Rey's flying the Falcon is universally inconsistent when you have Luke...and Anakin which I personally find way more absurd....is silly. They all had about the same amount of training, they all had similar circumstances, yet Rey is the only one who gets complained about. Its weird.
IT IS BAD WRITING. The sequels have had no plan, & have been scraped together by mediocre to terrible writers (one of whom admits as much). Regarding the "Rey is the only one who gets complained about" nonsense, answer this; how many times did Luke or Leia or Kenobi pilot the Falcon in the Classic trilogy??? ZERO because she's a very DIFFICULT ship to fly! C'mon, listen to yourself
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 2:00:12 GMT
I can honestly say that I remember the first time I saw A New Hope, and Luke flying the X-Wing at the finale did not make ANY sense. I think Han or someone said Luke's experience dusting crops wasn't anything like space flight, pretty sure it was nothing like flying a fighter either. Basically my thought was, "He can what?" then the sequence started and I pretty much forgot about the disconnect cuz MOVIE AWESOME. Rule of cool can work too. Just if we're going to call bull shit on Rey and not call into question Luke's equally absurd...or Anakin's way more absurd...feats is...again weird. To me, Rey's piloting of the Falcon made MORE sense. She says she is a pilot, so, ok we have no idea what her skill is. Then she takes off in the Falcon, and practically crashes immediately, so ok, at least not used to this ship. Then the maneuvers inside the Star Destroyer happens afterwards, but, like I said earlier, she knows that wreck well. The fact that she can pull it off is hard to believe, but kind of explained by Force intuition after her sensitivity becomes apparent. My whole thing about complaints like this is, what's the fix? If she mentions she had training/experience on this type of ship, or whatever it is the complainers are asking for, does that really make the movie better for them? I doubt it. Rey survived on Jakku from childhood to her early 20s, and posrters are complaining about her fighting skill, when she's obviously a survivor. How much backstory do people demand on this one character to justify her being able to defend herself? It's ridiculous. She's not some helpless pretty snowflake there for anyone to save.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 2:02:57 GMT
So you want to be told and not shown? Maybe you're right that the average needs that information but I've always been told that is bad writing.It still is weird even with that. To your own analogy that's like saying someone who flies a sesna should be able to fly an F-16 IN COMBAT. The first time. For the record this DOES NOT bother me. I want to make that clear but to say Rey's flying the Falcon is universally inconsistent when you have Luke...and Anakin which I personally find way more absurd....is silly. They all had about the same amount of training, they all had similar circumstances, yet Rey is the only one who gets complained about. Its weird.
IT IS BAD WRITING. The sequels have had no plan, & have been scraped together by mediocre to terrible writers (one of whom admits as much). Regarding the "Rey is the only one who gets complained about" nonsense, answer this; how many times did Luke or Leia or Kenobi pilot the Falcon in the Classic trilogy??? ZERO because she's a very DIFFICULT ship to fly! C'mon, listen to yourself She's a difficult ship to maintain, never fly. Han picked up on it fast enough. *shrugs* as far as listening to myself I am. I look for internal consistency in my writing...and Rey matches that. Rey's talents makes about as much sense as Luke, and more then Ani's.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 2:04:47 GMT
Rule of cool can work too. Just if we're going to call bull shit on Rey and not call into question Luke's equally absurd...or Anakin's way more absurd...feats is...again weird. To me, Rey's piloting of the Falcon made MORE sense. She says she is a pilot, so, ok we have no idea what her skill is. Then she takes off in the Falcon, and practically crashes immediately, so ok, at least not used to this ship. The maneuvers in the Star Destroyer happens afterwards, but, like I said earlier, she knows that wreck well, and that fact that she can pull it off is hard to believe, but kind of explained by Force intuition after her sensitivity becomes apparent. My whole thing about complaints like this is, what's the fix? If she mentions she had training/experience on this type of ship, or whatever it is the complainers are asking for, does that really make the movie better for them? I doubt it. oh I forgot about that. Luke: I'm a pilot, I blew up Rats at home. Everyone: Yey go farm boy! Rey: I'm a pilot. Everyone: wow so Mary, such Sue.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 2:09:11 GMT
Luke and Anakin look pedestrian after Rey's feats placed her in the beyond fantastical tier of fantastical protagonists. You call Anakin a Gary Stu for being a good pilot but we see in film that his pod racing skills, and mechanical background contributed greatly to his performance at the battle of naboo, while George already hinted at Luke's piloting skills through character statements, and an easter egg in the pic that reveals what Luke's T-16 ship looked like. Compare that to Rey who is given no explanation as to how she effortlessly piloted a ship with an asymmetricral cockpit that she never piloted before beyond "Lmao the force". I didn't call Anakin a Gary Stu. Only if the force wasn't with him. Though he is the most 'Stuish' of the three. She is given as much explanation as Luke is. Rey isn't given that much of an explanation for her abilities unlike Luke. In ANH Luke's piloting skills were foreshadowed and his brief force training exercise with Obi Wan later played a role in Luke tapping into the force in order to destroy the Death Star. There's no explanation for Rey who with no training reads Kylo's mind, her ease of use of an advanced force skill like the Mind Trick, her expert piloting of an unusual ship that she never piloted before, flawless use of force pull, or her adept use of a lightsaber despite it being her first time weilding it against a trained duelist. Rey's background as a junks part scavenger who uses a makeshift bostaff to fight off sand hobos does little to explain those feats because we have been shown multiple times that uber force users don't just use abilities like that with no training. The only other characters who comes close are the EU's Galen Marek or Vitiate, and those guys are raging Stus. About Anakin he's arguably the least suish of the protagonists due to his story being a deconstruction of the hero's journey and him having the least feats that could just be explained away by his status as the Chosen One, and has immensely suffered the consequences for his actions all throughout the prequel trilogy.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 2:40:02 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 6, 2020 2:42:18 GMT
To me, Rey's piloting of the Falcon made MORE sense. She says she is a pilot, so, ok we have no idea what her skill is. Then she takes off in the Falcon, and practically crashes immediately, so ok, at least not used to this ship. The maneuvers in the Star Destroyer happens afterwards, but, like I said earlier, she knows that wreck well, and that fact that she can pull it off is hard to believe, but kind of explained by Force intuition after her sensitivity becomes apparent. My whole thing about complaints like this is, what's the fix? If she mentions she had training/experience on this type of ship, or whatever it is the complainers are asking for, does that really make the movie better for them? I doubt it. oh I forgot about that. Luke: I'm a pilot, I blew up Rats at home. Everyone: Yey go farm boy! Rey: I'm a pilot. Everyone: wow so Mary, such Sue. Dude, she's a Sue. It is known
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 2:47:51 GMT
I didn't call Anakin a Gary Stu. Only if the force wasn't with him. Though he is the most 'Stuish' of the three. She is given as much explanation as Luke is. Rey isn't given that much of an explanation for her abilities unlike Luke. In ANH Luke's piloting skills were foreshadowed and his brief force training exercise with Obi Wan later played a role in Luke tapping into the force in order to destroy the Death Star. There's no explanation for Rey who with no training reads Kylo's mind, her ease of use of an advanced force skill like the Mind Trick, her expert piloting of an unusual ship that she never piloted before, flawless use of force pull, or her adept use of a lightsaber despite it being her first time weilding it against a trained duelist. Rey's background as a junks part scavenger who uses a makeshift bostaff to fight off sand hobos does little to explain those feats because we have been shown multiple times that uber force users don't just use abilities like that with no training. The only other characters who comes close are the EU's Galen Marek or Vitiate, and those guys are raging Stus. About Anakin he's arguably the least suish of the protagonists due to his story being a deconstruction of the hero's journey and him having the least feats that could just be explained away by his status as the Chosen One, and has immensely suffered the consequences for his actions all throughout the prequel trilogy. Ugh. Starkiller. Now there's a St...poorly written mess of a character. oh I forgot about that. Luke: I'm a pilot, I blew up Rats at home. Everyone: Yey go farm boy! Rey: I'm a pilot. Everyone: wow so Mary, such Sue. Dude, she's a Sue. It is known I don't agree with you so your answer is to post a YouTube video. This'll convince me.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 6, 2020 2:52:48 GMT
IT IS BAD WRITING. The sequels have had no plan, & have been scraped together by mediocre to terrible writers (one of whom admits as much). Regarding the "Rey is the only one who gets complained about" nonsense, answer this; how many times did Luke or Leia or Kenobi pilot the Falcon in the Classic trilogy??? ZERO because she's a very DIFFICULT ship to fly! C'mon, listen to yourself She's a difficult ship to maintain, never fly. Han picked up on it fast enough. *shrugs* as far as listening to myself I am. I look for internal consistency in my writing...and Rey matches that. Rey's talents makes about as much sense as Luke, and more then Ani's. For my part: Rey’s piloting ability has never been much of an issue for me, her force powers on the other hand are. Luke and Anakin could perform feats of great reflexes and coordination without training, but Rey has the telekinetic and telepathic power of a full fledged Jedi Knight within minutes of learning that the Force exists. I’ve heard people claim Rey was more interesting when her parents were nobody and we got away from the Force being in bloodlines... but was it really? Rey never had to work to become powerful, instead of a bloodline her power was granted by sheer cosmic destiny... which is frankly uncompelling and dull to me. At least as a Palpatine, she can reflect on that legacy and resist it, which was somewhat interesting and I wish they had actually taken the time to develop that properly.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 2:58:29 GMT
She's a difficult ship to maintain, never fly. Han picked up on it fast enough. *shrugs* as far as listening to myself I am. I look for internal consistency in my writing...and Rey matches that. Rey's talents makes about as much sense as Luke, and more then Ani's. For my part: Rey’s piloting ability has never been much of an issue for me, her force powers on the other hand are. Luke and Anakin could perform feats of great reflexes and coordination without training, but Rey has the telekinetic and telepathic power of a full fledged Jedi Knight within minutes of learning that the Force exists. I’ve heard people claim Rey was more interesting when her parents were nobody and we got away from the Force being in bloodlines... but was it really? Rey never had to work to become powerful, instead of a bloodline her power was granted by sheer cosmic destiny... which is frankly uncompelling and dull to me. At least as a Palpatine, she can reflect on that legacy and resist it, which was somewhat interesting and I wish they had actually taken the time to develop that properly. Properly may be a stretch but it was hinted at. And she did have to work at it. Fine she was an extremely competent individual but her struggle against herself and her own demons was every bit as interesting as watching Luke get curbstomped by Vader in Empire. I mean I just don't see her feats or her powers impressive either. In Eps 7 and 8 anyways. Certainly when you compare it to Anakin, Luke, or (especially) Starkiller. Though he's not canon anymore...thank the Force.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 6, 2020 3:09:41 GMT
Properly may be a stretch but it was hinted at. And she did have to work at it. Fine she was an extremely competent individual but her struggle against herself and her own demons was every bit as interesting as watching Luke get curbstomped by Vader in Empire. I mean I just don't see her feats or her powers impressive either. In Eps 7 and 8 anyways. Certainly when you compare it to Anakin, Luke, or (especially) Starkiller. Though he's not canon anymore...thank the Force. It more about what point they were in in their development. Well, let me put it this way with a comparison: When Obi-Wan performed the mind trick in A New Hope, that was our first real display of what an experienced Jedi could do with the Force. When Luke used the mind trick on Jabba’s majordomo in Return of the Jedi, it punctuated just how far he had come in his Jedi journey, especially in relation to what Obi-Wan did and in comparison to what he could do at the start of The Empire Strike’s Back: barely able to pull a lightsaber to him. Rey does the mind trick with ease immediately upon learning she could use the force and then proceeds to overpower the force pull of a much more experienced force user (Kylo Ren). So I’d contend that she comes across as an extreme prodigy in relation to Anakin and Luke.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 3:12:40 GMT
Rey isn't given that much of an explanation for her abilities unlike Luke. In ANH Luke's piloting skills were foreshadowed and his brief force training exercise with Obi Wan later played a role in Luke tapping into the force in order to destroy the Death Star. There's no explanation for Rey who with no training reads Kylo's mind, her ease of use of an advanced force skill like the Mind Trick, her expert piloting of an unusual ship that she never piloted before, flawless use of force pull, or her adept use of a lightsaber despite it being her first time weilding it against a trained duelist. Rey's background as a junks part scavenger who uses a makeshift bostaff to fight off sand hobos does little to explain those feats because we have been shown multiple times that uber force users don't just use abilities like that with no training. The only other characters who comes close are the EU's Galen Marek or Vitiate, and those guys are raging Stus. About Anakin he's arguably the least suish of the protagonists due to his story being a deconstruction of the hero's journey and him having the least feats that could just be explained away by his status as the Chosen One, and has immensely suffered the consequences for his actions all throughout the prequel trilogy. Ugh. Starkiller. Now there's a St...poorly written mess of a character. say it... Say it! Starkiller's a raging stu. Uses the force pull to disarm Darth Vader of his lightsaber as a child. Defeats Vader and pushes Palpatine to the brink before the former backstabs him, and his death inspires the rebellion who adopts his family's crest as their own.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 3:24:03 GMT
Properly may be a stretch but it was hinted at. And she did have to work at it. Fine she was an extremely competent individual but her struggle against herself and her own demons was every bit as interesting as watching Luke get curbstomped by Vader in Empire. I mean I just don't see her feats or her powers impressive either. In Eps 7 and 8 anyways. Certainly when you compare it to Anakin, Luke, or (especially) Starkiller. Though he's not canon anymore...thank the Force. It more about what point they were in in their development. Well, let me put it this way with a comparison: When Obi-Wan performed the mind trick in A New Hope, that was our first real display of what an experienced Jedi could do with the Force. When Luke used the mind trick on Jabba’s majordomo in Return of the Jedi, it punctuated just how far he had come in his Jedi journey, especially in relation to what Obi-Wan did and in comparison to what he could do at the start of The Empire Strike’s Back: barely able to pull a lightsaber to him. Rey does the mind trick with ease immediately upon learning she could use the force and then proceeds to overpower the force pull of a much more experienced force user (Kylo Ren). So I’d contend that she comes across as an extreme prodigy in relation to Anakin and Luke. I suppose to be fair too quite probably the one reason I think of them as not being too impressive is its the first things we see from anyone and it is natural to assume, from their words, that these are pretty simple Force abilities. Though on the flip side we don't know how much more powerful or experienced Kylo was at the time either. Snoke did make the line about how it was neccessary to complete his training. Also: What I find interesting about the 'barely pulls a lightsaber to him' bit in Empire is Luke obviously knew it was possible...somehow...is the sequence of events. Remember Luke has trouble believing his own eyes when Yoda lifts the X-Wing from the swamps of Dagabah so he obviously has a belief problem. So, he wakes up...is seperated from his weapon, senses something is coming, reaches out for his weapon with the Force...but it barely moves...until the Wampa is right on top of him, when suddenly the Lightsaber just zooms to him. Again the Force is all about belief and concentration, life threatening situation focused Luke's mind wonderfully. Similar with Rey. She is probably used to not really letting distractions cloud her judgement. Her mind has always been wonderfully focused because she hasn't had to get it used to anything but survival. Ugh. Starkiller. Now there's a St...poorly written mess of a character. say it... Say it! Starkiller's a raging stu. Uses the force pull to disarm Darth Vader of his lightsaber as a child. Defeats Vader and pushes Palpatine to the brink before the former backstabs him, and his death inspires the rebellion who adopts his family's crest as their own. *feels dizzy from the wave of Nausea* Actually the pulling the lightsaber from Vader thing though could be a good explanation to prove that sometimes more powerful Force Users can be...surprised. From what I remember of that scene though too it seemed to be a pretty unconcious use of the Force. But yeah the rest of that shit...makes me angry that whole game makes me angry. I actually find Rebels to be about a two hundred times better Origin Story for the Rebellion then anything. Neither Kanan or Ezra were too OP, good characters, much more humble roots, and it didn't rape the already preexisting canon.
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