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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 6, 2020 3:48:53 GMT
So you want to be told and not shown? Maybe you're right that the average needs that information but I've always been told that is bad writing. It still is weird even with that. To your own analogy that's like saying someone who flies a sesna should be able to fly an F-16 IN COMBAT. The first time. For the record this DOES NOT bother me. I want to make that clear but to say Rey's flying the Falcon is universally inconsistent when you have Luke...and Anakin which I personally find way more absurd....is silly. They all had about the same amount of training, they all had similar circumstances, yet Rey is the only one who gets complained about. Its weird. It doesen't. Go rewatch the fight (or the fight against the Praetorian guard for that matter) she doesen't show real skill with a lightsaber till episode 9. But it's not like she's a complete dunce with the concept either, she does just enough to survive. "Show, don't tell" involves actually showing. It would have been if we'd seen Rey coming out of a downed spaceship wiping her hands from engine grease and calling it a lost cause as part of her introduction, or seen her exchanging a significant bit of her hard-earned currency to mess around in these "flight sims" because even just feeling like flying and being good at it is one of the few joys in her life. If we'd seen her consistently mirroring Kylo's actions and movements after apparently having downloaded his training from him. If the Force abilities she performed were specifically ones we knew Kylo used a lot, to indicate that there was a connection of some kind. Nobody is denying that there's some suspension of disbelief in both Luke's and Anakin's cases, but at least in both the talents in question are foreshadowed and given a place in the characters' backstories before the plot suddenly revolves around them. Rey manifests piloting skills the very moment she and Finn are about to steal a ship to escape in, and nothing has been told or shown to reconcile that with her obvious poverty and solitude beforehand, in a movie where a point is made of the fact that not everyone can fly a starship. Go rewatch the fights yourself. She defeats Kylo immediately after he fairly easily cuts down a trained-from-birth soldier, while wielding a weapon that is so fundamentally unlike the one she's clearly used to fighting with that her old habits would actually be a liability in real life. In the fight against the Praetorian guard she casually kills several of the cream of the crop of the First Order's close-range fighters while saving Kylo Ren's life, having had effectively no more training than she had in previous movie. I'm in the camp of the sequel trilogy being at the very least worth watching and pretty okay as far as movies go, but terrible and nonsensical writing is still terrible and nonsensical. If you can forgive it then that's great, the world is full of movies you can enjoy that others may find silly and ridiculous. Good for you. But you not caring about bad writing doesn't make it good writing. I can honestly say that I remember the first time I saw A New Hope, and Luke flying the X-Wing at the finale did not make ANY sense. I think Han or someone said Luke's experience dusting crops wasn't anything like space flight, pretty sure it was nothing like flying a fighter either. Basically my thought was, "He can what?" then the sequence started and I pretty much forgot about the disconnect cuz MOVIE AWESOME. Then you must have been too young to pay attention, because it comes up three times in the first half hour or so of the movie just off the top of my head. It's alluded to when he discusses his future with his parents, Ben points it out when welcoming him to his hut, and he himself states that he's a good pilot when negotiating with Han for passage to Alderaan. Moreover, effort is made to make it very clear that the specific job he's being given, flying low through "canyons" over a planetary surface aiming at a small target on the ground, is exactly what he has been practicing. He doesn't do any insane acrobatics or engage in dogfights in open space, like Han does. All he does is fly in a straight line looking for his target while veering back and forth a bit to avoid enemy fire from behind. I'm sure I didn't give it any thought either when I saw it as a kid, but if as an adult I'm watching a movie and, say, a kindergarten teacher suddenly jumps into the cockpit of a helicopter during a tense moment and says "I can fly this. Don't worry." with no prior indication of anything of the sort or even subsequent explanation, then I'm going to be sitting there wondering how the hell the writer thought that would seem natural. And that's what Rey does with every single one of her skills.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 6, 2020 3:52:43 GMT
I suppose to be fair too quite probably the one reason I think of them as not being too impressive is its the first things we see from anyone and it is natural to assume, from their words, that these are pretty simple Force abilities. I would disagree, at least to the extent these simple Force powers have been shown in the movies before. Without training, the only things Anakin and Luke were capable of was good reflexes, coordination and intuition. More than that, requires knowledge and practice, at least so far as we’ve seen. Granted, I’ve always been a bit opposed to how some media, including the Force Unleashed in regards to the young-Starkiller moment, treats the Force like an X-Men power that a person always has full access to regardless of training rather than something that requires knowledge and practice to develop in addition to natural capacity. I suppose that’s part of why Rey’s abilities rub me the wrong wayWell we know he trained with Luke for years, and then trained for presumably months or years under Snoke. In any case, he certainly had a lot more experience than Rey, who could count her experience in minutes.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 3:57:07 GMT
So you want to be told and not shown? Maybe you're right that the average needs that information but I've always been told that is bad writing. It still is weird even with that. To your own analogy that's like saying someone who flies a sesna should be able to fly an F-16 IN COMBAT. The first time. For the record this DOES NOT bother me. I want to make that clear but to say Rey's flying the Falcon is universally inconsistent when you have Luke...and Anakin which I personally find way more absurd....is silly. They all had about the same amount of training, they all had similar circumstances, yet Rey is the only one who gets complained about. Its weird. It doesen't. Go rewatch the fight (or the fight against the Praetorian guard for that matter) she doesen't show real skill with a lightsaber till episode 9. But it's not like she's a complete dunce with the concept either, she does just enough to survive. "Show, don't tell" involves actually showing. It would have been if we'd seen Rey coming out of a downed spaceship wiping her hands from engine grease and calling it a lost cause as part of her introduction, or seen her exchanging a significant bit of her hard-earned currency to mess around in these "flight sims" because even just feeling like flying and being good at it is one of the few joys in her life. If we'd seen her consistently mirroring Kylo's actions and movements after apparently having downloaded his training from him. If the Force abilities she performed were specifically ones we knew Kylo used a lot, to indicate that there was a connection of some kind. Nobody is denying that there's some suspension of disbelief in both Luke's and Anakin's cases, but at least in both the talents in question are foreshadowed and given a place in the characters' backstories before the plot suddenly revolves around them. Rey manifests piloting skills the very moment she and Finn are about to steal a ship to escape in, and nothing has been told or shown to reconcile that with her obvious poverty and solitude beforehand, in a movie where a point is made of the fact that not everyone can fly a starship. Go rewatch the fights yourself. She defeats Kylo immediately after he fairly easily cuts down a trained-from-birth soldier, while wielding a weapon that is so fundamentally unlike the one she's clearly used to fighting with that her old habits would actually be a liability in real life. In the fight against the Praetorian guard she casually kills several of the cream of the crop of the First Order's close-range fighters while saving Kylo Ren's life, having had effectively no more training than she had in previous movie. I'm in the camp of the sequel trilogy being at the very least worth watching and pretty okay as far as movies go, but terrible and nonsensical writing is still terrible and nonsensical. If you can forgive it then that's great, the world is full of movies you can enjoy that others may find silly and ridiculous. Good for you. But you not caring about bad writing doesn't make it good writing. I can honestly say that I remember the first time I saw A New Hope, and Luke flying the X-Wing at the finale did not make ANY sense. I think Han or someone said Luke's experience dusting crops wasn't anything like space flight, pretty sure it was nothing like flying a fighter either. Basically my thought was, "He can what?" then the sequence started and I pretty much forgot about the disconnect cuz MOVIE AWESOME. Then you must have been too young to pay attention, because it comes up three times in the first half hour or so of the movie just off the top of my head. It's alluded to when he discusses his future with his parents, Ben points it out when welcoming him to his hut, and he himself states that he's a good pilot when negotiating with Han for passage to Alderaan. Moreover, effort is made to make it very clear that the specific job he's being given, flying low through "canyons" over a planetary surface aiming at a small target on the ground, is exactly what he has been practicing. He doesn't do any insane acrobatics or engage in dogfights in open space, like Han does. All he does is fly in a straight line looking for his target while veering back and forth a bit to avoid enemy fire from behind. I'm sure I didn't give it any thought either when I saw it as a kid, but if as an adult I'm watching a movie and, say, a kindergarten teacher suddenly jumps into the cockpit of a helicopter during a tense moment and says "I can fly this. Don't worry." with no prior indication of anything of the sort or even subsequent explanation then I'm going to be sitting there wondering how the hell the writer thought that would seem natural. And that's what Rey does with every single one of her skills. That's not what Rey does with any of her skills. And you are equating combat piloting with essentially dusting crops. Yes, yes, yes, its a similar sized target but that means jack bupkus when people are shooting at you. Besides we are never shown Luke's talents in the cockpit before hand (to their credit at least we were attempted to be shown Anakin had piloting skills with the pod racer), we are only ever told it. Just like we are told Rey has piloting skills in The Force Awakens. But one more time the only people who have an issue with this in the SWs setting only has an issue with Rey...not Luke. Luke's situation with Rey in this case is 99% identical yet the two are treated entirely different by segments of the fandom.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 3:59:27 GMT
I suppose to be fair too quite probably the one reason I think of them as not being too impressive is its the first things we see from anyone and it is natural to assume, from their words, that these are pretty simple Force abilities. I would disagree, at least to the extent these simple Force powers have been shown in the movies before. Without training, the only things Anakin and Luke were capable of without training was good reflexes, coordination and intuition. More than that, requires knowledge and practice, at least so far as we’ve seen. Granted, I’ve always been a bit opposed to how some media, including the Force Unleashed in regards to the young-Starkiller moment, treats the Force like an X-Men power that a person always has full access to regardless of training rather than something that requires knowledge and practice to develop in addition to natural capacity. I suppose that’s part of why Rey’s abilities rub me the wrong wayWell we know he trained with Luke for years, and then trained for presumably months or years under Snoke. In any case, he certainly had a lot more experience than Rey, who could count her experience in minutes. Luke was probably training Kylo in the 'Jedi way'...what little of it he could piece together from the journals and holocrons he could find. I think I have stated before that I think a good deal of a Jedi's training had little to do with training in the Force but ideological indoctrination.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 4:23:40 GMT
... I can honestly say that I remember the first time I saw A New Hope, and Luke flying the X-Wing at the finale did not make ANY sense. I think Han or someone said Luke's experience dusting crops wasn't anything like space flight, pretty sure it was nothing like flying a fighter either. Basically my thought was, "He can what?" then the sequence started and I pretty much forgot about the disconnect cuz MOVIE AWESOME. Then you must have been too young to pay attention, because it comes up three times in the first half hour or so of the movie just off the top of my head. It's alluded to when he discusses his future with his parents, Ben points it out when welcoming him to his hut, and he himself states that he's a good pilot when negotiating with Han for passage to Alderaan. "I hear you've become a good pilot yourself," from Kenobi to which Luke shrugs. "You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot..." to Han who dismisses it with reason. What are the others in the first half hour... or just period? THIS is supposed to justify getting into an X-Wing fighter, which is basically like an F-16 compared to a civilian aircraft, at the end of the movie to the astute, mature crowd? lol.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 6, 2020 4:30:27 GMT
I would disagree, at least to the extent these simple Force powers have been shown in the movies before. Without training, the only things Anakin and Luke were capable of without training was good reflexes, coordination and intuition. More than that, requires knowledge and practice, at least so far as we’ve seen. Granted, I’ve always been a bit opposed to how some media, including the Force Unleashed in regards to the young-Starkiller moment, treats the Force like an X-Men power that a person always has full access to regardless of training rather than something that requires knowledge and practice to develop in addition to natural capacity. I suppose that’s part of why Rey’s abilities rub me the wrong wayWell we know he trained with Luke for years, and then trained for presumably months or years under Snoke. In any case, he certainly had a lot more experience than Rey, who could count her experience in minutes. Luke was probably training Kylo in the 'Jedi way'...what little of it he could piece together from the journals and holocrons he could find. I think I have stated before that I think a good deal of a Jedi's training had little to do with training in the Force but ideological indoctrination. Well from what we’ve seen in the films Jedi training includes training to use the force to sense danger (anticipating stun bolts without sight) and training to reach out and feel the Force as a living energy in one’s surroundings in addition to telekinetics. Of course the Jedi aren’t just about using the Force, but also an ideology about how it should be used, so that’s expected. But I don’t see a basis to say learning to use the Force isn’t a big part of it. In any case, Luke had about a decade to scour the galaxy for information after Endor before he trained Ben in addition to all he gleaned from Yoda and Obi-Wan.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 6, 2020 4:34:20 GMT
... Then you must have been too young to pay attention, because it comes up three times in the first half hour or so of the movie just off the top of my head. It's alluded to when he discusses his future with his parents, Ben points it out when welcoming him to his hut, and he himself states that he's a good pilot when negotiating with Han for passage to Alderaan. "I hear you've become a good pilot yourself," from Kenobi to which Luke shrugs. "You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot..." to Han who dismisses it with reason. What are the others in the first half hour... or just period? THIS is supposed to justify getting into an X-Wing fighter, which is basically like an F-16 compared to a civilian aircraft, at the end of the movie to the astute, mature crowd? lol. Well, Luke’s childhood best friend Biggs was there and probably vouched for his talent. Enough for the rebels, who must have had more ships than able pilots, to take the desperate step of throwing him in a cockpit.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 4:41:03 GMT
"I hear you've become a good pilot yourself," from Kenobi to which Luke shrugs. "You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot..." to Han who dismisses it with reason. What are the others in the first half hour... or just period? THIS is supposed to justify getting into an X-Wing fighter, which is basically like an F-16 compared to a civilian aircraft, at the end of the movie to the astute, mature crowd? lol. Well, Luke’s childhood best friend Biggs was there and probably vouched for his talent. Enough for the rebels, who must have had more ships than able pilots, to take the desperate step of throwing him in a cockpit. Good enough explanation for why they let him in, not why he was so successful. Of course if the Rebellion was that desperate one wonders how they ever really had any success against the Empire.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 6, 2020 4:44:51 GMT
That's not what Rey does with any of her skills. And you are equating combat piloting with essentially dusting crops. Yes, yes, yes, its a similar sized target but that means jack bupkus when people are shooting at you. Besides we are never shown Luke's talents in the cockpit before hand (to their credit at least we were attempted to be shown Anakin had piloting skills with the pod racer), we are only ever told it. Just like we are told Rey has piloting skills in The Force Awakens. But one more time the only people who have an issue with this in the SWs setting only has an issue with Rey...not Luke. Luke's situation with Rey in this case is 99% identical yet the two are treated entirely different by segments of the fandom. Shooting moving targets while hurtling through the air and hundreds of miles an hour isn't "dusting crops", and the combination of shields and the shooters relying on targeting computers mean that "being shot at" doesn't mean quite the same flying in space as it does when someone unloads a gun at you. The New Hope establishes that well before the mission to blow up the Death Star. No, we aren't shown Luke being a great pilot, but we're told several times from different sources who have reason to know. I totally agree that actually seeing him flying something more impressive than a speeder on Tattoine would have made him being a pilot even more credible. Nobody is debating that. But at least we're informed in advance that he is, and that's better than the characters just pulling random skillsets out of their asses as the plot demands it. We aren't told Rey has piloting skills, nor are we shown it. She just has them exactly when she needs to. Do you seriously imagine that people wouldn't have called it stupid if we'd been given no indication whatsoever that Luke could fly before he climbed in the X-Wing? You know perfectly well that we'd have been rolling our eyes for forty years if that was the case. You're the one imposing a double standard by trying to exempt her from normal character building rules. People treat them differently because she breaks the suspense of disbelief far more egregiously than he does. Simple as that. "I hear you've become a good pilot yourself," from Kenobi to which Luke shrugs. "You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot..." to Han who dismisses it with reason. What are the others in the first half hour... or just period? THIS is supposed to justify getting into an X-Wing fighter, which is basically like an F-16 compared to a civilian aircraft, at the end of the movie to the astute, mature crowd? lol. Nobody is saying that Luke's piloting is the best set-up character skill in all of cinema, just that what we get is better than literally nothing at all.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 4:55:58 GMT
That's not what Rey does with any of her skills. And you are equating combat piloting with essentially dusting crops. Yes, yes, yes, its a similar sized target but that means jack bupkus when people are shooting at you. Besides we are never shown Luke's talents in the cockpit before hand (to their credit at least we were attempted to be shown Anakin had piloting skills with the pod racer), we are only ever told it. Just like we are told Rey has piloting skills in The Force Awakens. But one more time the only people who have an issue with this in the SWs setting only has an issue with Rey...not Luke. Luke's situation with Rey in this case is 99% identical yet the two are treated entirely different by segments of the fandom. Shooting moving targets while hurtling through the air and hundreds of miles an hour isn't "dusting crops", and the combination of shields and the shooters relying on targeting computers mean that "being shot at" doesn't mean quite the same flying in space as it does when someone unloads a gun at you. The New Hope establishes that well before the mission to blow up the Death Star. No, we aren't shown Luke being a great pilot, but we're told several times from different sources who have reason to know. I totally agree that actually seeing him flying something more impressive than a speeder on Tattoine would have made him being a pilot even more credible. Nobody is debating that. But at least we're informed in advance that he is, and that's better than the characters just pulling random skillsets out of their asses as the plot demands it. We aren't told Rey has piloting skills, nor are we shown it. She just has them exactly when she needs to. Do you seriously imagine that people wouldn't have called it stupid if we'd been given no indication whatsoever that Luke could fly before he climbed in the X-Wing? You know perfectly well that we'd have been rolling our eyes for forty years if that was the case. You're the one displaying a double standard by trying to exempt her from normal character building rules. People treat them differently because she breaks the suspense of disbelief far more egregiously than he does. Simple as that. We aren't rolling our eyes at it because it is cool and...for some reason...acceptable that Luke is doing these things. Again, if you think about it...it does not make any sense whatsoever. Heimdall is right about how desperate the Rebellion was to let him fly but do you think we would let Luke fly a combat mission for the US Airforce IRL with only 'shotting womprats' as his only accomplishment? Would the Imperial Navy have let Luke fly a mission of that importance if he were doing it from the other side if that was his only experience? No, that'd be ridicilious. The only reason Luke gets away with it is because Star Wars is a fantastical setting with this thing called 'The Force' which can grant invididuals a 'cheat code' that helps them. Not just Jedi either but its a good explanation for any number of the 'lucky' instances that happens in Star Wars, like the stormtroopers having such shitty aim, or any other number of the tough scrapes. I make allowances for it because it makes sense to me and it doubly makes sense given all we know about the Force. I extend the same consistency to Rey's feats in TFA. if I were to complain about one I'd have to complain about the other.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 6, 2020 5:05:55 GMT
2) Anakin pod racing isn't actively using the force. It's a trait of having good reflexes that comes with being force sensitive. Qui-Gon says it in the movie. "He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes" Qui-Gon Jinn Isn't that using the Force without training? 3) I can't even believe you brought this up. Luke when he's going down the trench hears Obi-Wans voice when he closes his eyes telling to him reach out with the force. The same way he did earlier in the movie when he was practicing with Obi-wan on the Falcon. Then when he opened his eyes, he turns off his targeting computer and uses the force. This is clear example of what I talking about earlier. So Obi-Wan tells him to use the Force and Luke uses it, where is the contradiction? Its not shown that Obi-Wan helps him in any other way in that scene,he just tells him to use it. And all the training he had up to that point was a short lesson on Millenium Falcon. Which is still infinitely more training than Rey got, and she could lift a mountain.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 5:11:54 GMT
"He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes" Qui-Gon Jinn Isn't that using the Force without training?So Obi-Wan tells him to use the Force and Luke uses it, where is the contradiction? Its not shown that Obi-Wan helps him in any other way in that scene,he just tells him to use it. And all the training he had up to that point was a short lesson on Millenium Falcon. Which is still infinitely more training than Rey got, and she could lift a mountain. To the Force there is no difference between a grain of sand and a Death Star.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 5:16:40 GMT
... "I hear you've become a good pilot yourself," from Kenobi to which Luke shrugs. "You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot..." to Han who dismisses it with reason. What are the others in the first half hour... or just period? THIS is supposed to justify getting into an X-Wing fighter, which is basically like an F-16 compared to a civilian aircraft, at the end of the movie to the astute, mature crowd? lol. Nobody is saying that Luke's piloting is the best set-up character skill in all of cinema, just that what we get is better than literally nothing at all. But, we did get something. Rey said she was a pilot.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 5:23:41 GMT
And you are equating combat piloting with essentially dusting crops.Yes, yes, yes, its a similar sized target but that means jack bupkus when people are shooting at you. Besides we are never shownLuke's talents in the cockpit before hand (to their credit at least we were attempted to be shown Anakin had piloting skills with the pod racer), we are only ever told it. Just like we are told Rey has piloting skills in The Force Awakens. But one more time the only people who have an issue with this in the SWs setting only has an issue with Rey...not Luke. Luke's situation with Rey in this case is 99% identical yet the two are treated entirely different by segments of the fandom. Luke has dialogue with Uncle Owen, Ben and Han that hints at his piloting ability, and George Lucas went out of his way to show Luke's T-16 ship through indirect means. The problem with Rey is that on her first flight with the Falcon, a ship with unconventional cockpit placement, she outmaneuvers multiple First Order Tie Fighters, and pilots the ship better than it's previous owners despite her only being familiarized with the ship a few minutes prior. Luke by comparison flew in a straight line, didn't engage in any dogfights, and was nearly shot down before Han saved him from Vader. Luke's first flight in his X-Wing was pedestrian and for good reason when compared to Rey's first flight in the Falcon.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 6, 2020 5:23:52 GMT
For my part: Rey’s piloting ability has never been much of an issue for me, her force powers on the other hand are. Luke and Anakin could perform feats of great reflexes and coordination without training, but Rey has the telekinetic and telepathic power of a full fledged Jedi Knight within minutes of learning that the Force exists. I’ve heard people claim Rey was more interesting when her parents were nobody and we got away from the Force being in bloodlines... but was it really? Rey never had to work to become powerful, instead of a bloodline her power was granted by sheer cosmic destiny... which is frankly uncompelling and dull to me. At least as a Palpatine, she can reflect on that legacy and resist it, which was somewhat interesting and I wish they had actually taken the time to develop that properly. Properly may be a stretch but it was hinted at. And she did have to work at it. Fine she was an extremely competent individual but her struggle against herself and her own demons was every bit as interesting as watching Luke get curbstomped by Vader in Empire. I mean I just don't see her feats or her powers impressive either. In Eps 7 and 8 anyways. Certainly when you compare it to Anakin, Luke, or (especially) Starkiller. Though he's not canon anymore...thank the Force. Luke's first fight: Rey's first fight: Luke's first time on the Falcon: Rey's first time on the Falcon Luke's first time in the turret: Rey's first time at the gun turret: Luke's first use of telekinesis: Rey's first use of telekinesis Dang, I'd even forgotten Kylo was even pulling on it too!
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 5:32:51 GMT
And you are equating combat piloting with essentially dusting crops.Yes, yes, yes, its a similar sized target but that means jack bupkus when people are shooting at you. Besides we are never shownLuke's talents in the cockpit before hand (to their credit at least we were attempted to be shown Anakin had piloting skills with the pod racer), we are only ever told it. Just like we are told Rey has piloting skills in The Force Awakens. But one more time the only people who have an issue with this in the SWs setting only has an issue with Rey...not Luke. Luke's situation with Rey in this case is 99% identical yet the two are treated entirely different by segments of the fandom. Luke has dialogue with Uncle Owen, Ben and Han that hints at his piloting ability, and George Lucas went out of his way to show Luke's T-16 ship through indirect means. The problem with Rey is that on her first flight with the Falcon, a ship with unconventional cockpit placement, she outmaneuvers multiple First Order Tie Fighters, and pilots the ship better than it's previous owners despite her only being familiarized with the ship a few minutes prior. Luke by comparison flew in a straight line, didn't engage in any dogfights, and was nearly shot down before Han saved him from Vader. Luke's first flight in his X-Wing was pedestrian and for good reason when compared to Rey's first flight in the Falcon. 1. Most of the differences in the two flight scenes is due to special effects and technology at the time versus now. We can do a lot more with out movies today then we could back then. If we had the tech back then Luke's dog fight would be just as exciting as it was back then...let alone the fact that Luke didn't just fly in a straight line. He dog faught with Ties both being pursued by them, and pursuing them, in open space. 2. The 'straight line' that Luke had to fly was in the middle of a trench with limited confines at very high velocity...infact Biggs made a comment on just how dangerous it was. And it was in the middle of combat, people shooting at him, including Vader pursuing him. If it weren't for the Force (and Han) the scene just does not make sense. Yes, he had experience flying in 'Beggars Canyon' too...but combat is still very highly different. 3. Rey didn't fly it better then Han or Luke or Chewie on her first try. I mean hell I don't remember Han ever bouncing the Falcon off of rock walls. Once more diminishing the feats of the characters in the OT just to make Rey sound more suish isn't a very convincing strategy.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 5:44:19 GMT
And you are equating combat piloting with essentially dusting crops.Yes, yes, yes, its a similar sized target but that means jack bupkus when people are shooting at you. Besides we are never shownLuke's talents in the cockpit before hand (to their credit at least we were attempted to be shown Anakin had piloting skills with the pod racer), we are only ever told it. Just like we are told Rey has piloting skills in The Force Awakens. But one more time the only people who have an issue with this in the SWs setting only has an issue with Rey...not Luke. Luke's situation with Rey in this case is 99% identical yet the two are treated entirely different by segments of the fandom. Luke has dialogue with Uncle Owen, Ben and Han that hints at his piloting ability, and George Lucas went out of his way to show Luke's T-16 ship through indirect means. The problem with Rey is that on her first flight with the Falcon, a ship with unconventional cockpit placement, she outmaneuvers multiple First Order Tie Fighters, and pilots the ship better than it's previous owners despite her only being familiarized with the ship a few minutes prior. Luke by comparison flew in a straight line, didn't engage in any dogfights, and was nearly shot down before Han saved him from Vader. Luke's first flight in his X-Wing was pedestrian and for good reason when compared to Rey's first flight in the Falcon. I'll bite. What's the basis for this? It certainly looks unconventional to my eyes, but my encounters with Star Wars fiction usually include a ship with a cockpit that is off center.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 5:47:11 GMT
Since we're linking videos here:
Looks more impressive then anything Rey ever did with the Falcon.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 5:52:54 GMT
Also Chewie does it, alone, on Crait:
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 6:03:47 GMT
Luke has dialogue with Uncle Owen, Ben and Han that hints at his piloting ability, and George Lucas went out of his way to show Luke's T-16 ship through indirect means. The problem with Rey is that on her first flight with the Falcon, a ship with unconventional cockpit placement, she outmaneuvers multiple First Order Tie Fighters, and pilots the ship better than it's previous owners despite her only being familiarized with the ship a few minutes prior. Luke by comparison flew in a straight line, didn't engage in any dogfights, and was nearly shot down before Han saved him from Vader. Luke's first flight in his X-Wing was pedestrian and for good reason when compared to Rey's first flight in the Falcon. 1. Most of the differences in the two flight scenes is due to special effects and technology at the time versus now. We can do a lot more with out movies today then we could back then. If we had the tech back then Luke's dog fight would be just as exciting as it was back then...let alone the fact that Luke didn't just fly in a straight line. He dog faught with Ties both being pursued by them, and pursuing them, in open space. 2. The 'straight line' that Luke had to fly was in the middle of a trench with limited confines at very high velocity...infact Biggs made a comment on just how dangerous it was. And it was in the middle of combat, people shooting at him, including Vader pursuing him. If it weren't for the Force (and Han) the scene just does not make sense. Yes, he had experience flying in 'Beggars Canyon' too...but combat is still very highly different. 3. Rey didn't fly it better then Han or Luke or Chewie on her first try. I mean hell I don't remember Han ever bouncing the Falcon off of rock walls. Once more diminishing the feats of the characters in the OT just to make Rey sound more suish isn't a very convincing strategy. 1. An advancement in technolgy won't change the scene because Luke's only role was to torpedo the Death Star's weakpoint, him engaging in dogfights jeopardizes his mission which was time sensitive, and Lucas wrote Luke with a specific skill set/level of expertise and didn't deviate from it. 2. The scene makes sense because Luke had prior experience flying in confined spaces and his didn't deviate from that by pulling off advanced stunts or engaging the enemy. He survived because his squadron served as distractions to enemy fire. Luke's only questionable feat dealt with his usage of the force. 3. I don't remember Han using consecutiveOut of Plane manuevers like Rey and in a confined space too. Show me where in the Trench Run that Luke used advanced dogfighting manuevers like Rey. Luke only flew in a straight line while his squadron served as meatshields before Han saved him.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 6:06:38 GMT
Luke has dialogue with Uncle Owen, Ben and Han that hints at his piloting ability, and George Lucas went out of his way to show Luke's T-16 ship through indirect means. The problem with Rey is that on her first flight with the Falcon, a ship with unconventional cockpit placement, she outmaneuvers multiple First Order Tie Fighters, and pilots the ship better than it's previous owners despite her only being familiarized with the ship a few minutes prior. Luke by comparison flew in a straight line, didn't engage in any dogfights, and was nearly shot down before Han saved him from Vader. Luke's first flight in his X-Wing was pedestrian and for good reason when compared to Rey's first flight in the Falcon. I'll bite. What's the basis for this? It certainly looks unconventional to my eyes, but my encounters with Star Wars fiction usually include a ship with a cockpit that is off center. How many ships did Rey pilot with an asymmetrically placed cockpit?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 6:07:27 GMT
1. Most of the differences in the two flight scenes is due to special effects and technology at the time versus now. We can do a lot more with out movies today then we could back then. If we had the tech back then Luke's dog fight would be just as exciting as it was back then...let alone the fact that Luke didn't just fly in a straight line. He dog faught with Ties both being pursued by them, and pursuing them, in open space. 2. The 'straight line' that Luke had to fly was in the middle of a trench with limited confines at very high velocity...infact Biggs made a comment on just how dangerous it was. And it was in the middle of combat, people shooting at him, including Vader pursuing him. If it weren't for the Force (and Han) the scene just does not make sense. Yes, he had experience flying in 'Beggars Canyon' too...but combat is still very highly different. 3. Rey didn't fly it better then Han or Luke or Chewie on her first try. I mean hell I don't remember Han ever bouncing the Falcon off of rock walls. Once more diminishing the feats of the characters in the OT just to make Rey sound more suish isn't a very convincing strategy. 1. An advancement in technolgy won't change the scene because Luke's only role was to torpedo the Death Star's weakpoint, him engaging in dogfights jeopardizes his mission which was time sensitive, and Lucas wrote Luke with a specific skill set/level of expertise and didn't deviate from it. 2. The scene makes sense because Luke had prior experience flying in confined spaces and his didn't deviate from that by pulling off advanced stunts or engaging the enemy. He survived because his squadron served as distractions to enemy fire. Luke's only questionable feat dealt with his usage of the force. 3. I don't remember Han using consecutiveOut of Plane manuevers like Rey and in a confined space too. Show me where in the Trench Run that Luke used advanced dogfighting manuevers like Rey. Luke only flew in a straight line while his squadron served as meatshields before Han saved him. ...But Luke did engage in dogfighting against TIE Fighters in that battle. Not too successfully I'll grant you but it happened.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 6:08:02 GMT
I'll bite. What's the basis for this? It certainly looks unconventional to my eyes, but my encounters with Star Wars fiction usually include a ship with a cockpit that is off center. How many ships did Rey pilot with an asymmetrically placed cockpit? That didn't answer the question.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 6:10:53 GMT
I think if we judge things fairly and taking everything into consideration.
Poe, Han, and Chewie are the better pilots then Rey.
Luke and Yoda are more powerful in the Force...maybe Palpetine too but that is more questionable.
And Obi-Wan, Windu, Yoda, Anakin/ Vader are the better swordsmen.
At least. Other characters can also be argued in some of these places like Kylo Ren.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 6:37:50 GMT
Properly may be a stretch but it was hinted at. And she did have to work at it. Fine she was an extremely competent individual but her struggle against herself and her own demons was every bit as interesting as watching Luke get curbstomped by Vader in Empire. I mean I just don't see her feats or her powers impressive either. In Eps 7 and 8 anyways. Certainly when you compare it to Anakin, Luke, or (especially) Starkiller. Though he's not canon anymore...thank the Force. Luke's first use of telekinesis: Rey's first use of telekinesis Dang, I'd even forgotten Kylo was even pulling on it too! I didn't remember it looking so bad. Kylo getting shat on so thoroughly by a neophyte force user killed his hype as a threatening antagonist. Johnson leaving him as the sole antagonist at the end of TLJ had to be intentional sabotage.
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