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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 6:51:49 GMT
1. An advancement in technolgy won't change the scene because Luke's only role was to torpedo the Death Star's weakpoint, him engaging in dogfights jeopardizes his mission which was time sensitive, and Lucas wrote Luke with a specific skill set/level of expertise and didn't deviate from it. 2. The scene makes sense because Luke had prior experience flying in confined spaces and his didn't deviate from that by pulling off advanced stunts or engaging the enemy. He survived because his squadron served as distractions to enemy fire. Luke's only questionable feat dealt with his usage of the force. 3. I don't remember Han using consecutiveOut of Plane manuevers like Rey and in a confined space too. Show me where in the Trench Run that Luke used advanced dogfighting manuevers like Rey. Luke only flew in a straight line while his squadron served as meatshields before Han saved him. ...But Luke did engage in dogfighting against TIE Fighters in that battle. Not too successfully I'll grant you but it happened. I'll take your word. How many ships did Rey pilot with an asymmetrically placed cockpit? That didn't answer the question. Rey wasn't piloting those other ships. Just because some other pilot has experience with flying an unconventional aircraft does not mean it applies to Rey.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 7:00:53 GMT
This was my biggest problem with it all. The only ships that needed to use this thing were the ships that were built there. Literally every other pilot in the galaxy could and did navigate this thing just fine. They built up the fleet, but had no idea how to ultimately defeat it, so we ended up with this nonsense. I mean, the entire ending of this movie was just preposterous. I'm not even going to go into them landing a ground force on the ship to destroy something that was totally exposed on the outside of the ship and could have been destroyed by any attack fighter. Did they just want to show off the horses or what? This movie had entire scenes that served no purpose but to create mcguffins/quest items, whatever you want to call them. A droid can read a language, but can't tell anyone what it read so they have to find someone to hack it? Why is it programmed to read it at all? It was just ridiculous. Heh, and how did you like ancient looking dagger with inscriptions wirtten in language unknown to anyone and droids are forbidden to translate that is the only thing capable of showing the way to... a 30 years old wreckage the whole galaxy knows about The dagger isn't ancient, it is just a dagger. I gather that it is inscribed, probably by Palpatine or one of his followers, so his agent could find the wayfinder and make his way back to Exegol with Rey. Also, side note, it doesn't point to the Death Star wreck, it points to the shore, with cryptic instructions that indicate it is to be used to find the wayfinder.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 7:10:53 GMT
People complain about Palpetine's plan...but really he never cared for Rey. Had Kylo killed her he would've extended the same offer to him.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 7:21:30 GMT
One of my biggest questions about the new trilogy is what exactly is Kylo's deal in the First Order? - Does he believe in the human-first-racism? - Is it a tool to bring order to galaxy? - Is he trying to crush corruption in the new Republic? - Is it all some adolescent reaction to his family because of his belief that Luke wanted to destroy him? - Is Kylo simply hungry for power as a goal in itself? What exactly did he refute (aside from The Emperor and the First Order) when he decided to help Rey that made him "redeemed" to become one with the force?
While I'm at it, what is the deal with Kylo's relationship with Rey? Obviously each thinks the other is kinda cute. But Kylo acts like an obsessed abusive rejected boyfriend who can't take no for an answer - he constantly calls, tries to manipulate Rey, and maybe beat her up for good measure. It's hard to think of Rey as a victim in Rise of Skywalker since, after she cut him off at the end of The Last Jedi, she basically keeps trying to manipulate Kylo, the authoritarian mass murdering Supreme Leader of the First Order, as well to "redeem" him and save the galaxy from the First Order. Kylo's arc in RoS has his mom distract him so his "girlfriend" can gut stab him, then heal him from death so he can hallucinate a guilt ridden conversation with his dad that he killed the year previous. I don't think that's how love works.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 7:42:28 GMT
One of my biggest questions about the new trilogy is what exactly is Kylo's deal in the First Order? - Does he believe in the human-first-racism? - Is it a tool to bring order to galaxy? - Is he trying to crush corruption in the new Republic? - Is it all some adolescent reaction to his family because of his belief that Luke wanted to destroy him? - Is Kylo simply hungry for power as a goal in itself? What exactly did he refute (aside from The Emperor and the First Order) when he decided to help Rey that made him "redeemed" to become one with the force?
While I'm at it, what is the deal with Kylo's relationship with Rey? Obviously each thinks the other is kinda cute. But Kylo acts like an obsessed abusive rejected boyfriend who can't take no for an answer - he constantly calls, tries to manipulate Rey, and maybe beat her up for good measure. It's hard to think of Rey as a victim in Rise of Skywalker since, after she cut him off at the end of The Last Jedi, she basically keeps trying to manipulate Kylo, the authoritarian mass murdering Supreme Leader of the First Order, as well to "redeem" him and save the galaxy from the First Order. Kylo's arc in RoS has his mom distract him so his "girlfriend" can gut stab him, then heal him from death so he can hallucinate a guilt ridden conversation with his dad that he killed the year previous. I don't think that's how love works. I think that may be one of the reasons they feel so strongly about it because they are very passionate about one another and are just mad the other isn't on their side. It's not the best ship ever...but again has the SWs MOVIES ever had a good romance? In other news: God I love Rey. *proceeds to beat the crap out of everyone then draws lightsaber point blank on Zori* we would really like your help. Not that you care but I think you're OK. I care.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 6, 2020 11:46:18 GMT
"He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes" Qui-Gon Jinn Isn't that using the Force without training?So Obi-Wan tells him to use the Force and Luke uses it, where is the contradiction? Its not shown that Obi-Wan helps him in any other way in that scene,he just tells him to use it. And all the training he had up to that point was a short lesson on Millenium Falcon. Which is still infinitely more training than Rey got, and she could lift a mountain. She could lift an avalanche after she had a primer from Maz, was mind probed by Kylo and had some training with Luke. Luke destroyed Death Star after he had a short lesson from Obi-Wan on Falcon. in a movie where a point is made of the fact that not everyone can fly a starship. What are you talking about?
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Post by cypherj on Jan 6, 2020 12:03:04 GMT
Luke's first use of telekinesis: Rey's first use of telekinesis Dang, I'd even forgotten Kylo was even pulling on it too!
For me these two clips are a microcosm of how Rey got the Mary Sue tag.
Luke in the first movie uses the force to block a blast from a practice droid after failing multiple times, even with Obi-Wan coaching him. Then he uses the force with Obi-Wan still coaching him to hit a target one time. That's if for the first movie.
Then in the second movie a year later he struggles to pull a lightsaber from the snow. He fails at first and then has to focus and pull it out. He then goes to train with Yoda. He can move some rocks and R2, but he can't lift an X-Wing, showing that he still has more to learn. He goes off to fight Vader, gets beaten up and bruised from getting hit with objects and is totally outmatched, finally losing a hand.
Comes back in the third movie after more time has passed. First time we see him use a Jedi mind trick. He then saves Han and the others. He goes off to try and save Vader, but falls into the Emperors trap. He loses control even in the third movie after Vader mentions Leia, but gets it back and finally beats Vader, telling the Emperor that he is finally a Jedi Knight like his father was before him.
This was a journey through the force.
Now let's look at Rey.
Within hours of realizing she could use the force she had already..
- Protected her mind from an experienced force user.
- Read someone's mind.
- Jedi mind tricked someone in a way not seen before. - Used telekinesis without struggle, and against someone else trying to do it as well - Won a lightsaber battle
All without any guidance, any training, or putting in any work. It was all just given to her for plot purposes.
Then there was no time skip between the movies, so just days later
- She goes to an area filled with the darkside and experiences nothing. Which makes even less sense now given her lineage.
- Once again uses telekinesis and holds Kylo to a stalemate, causing the lightsaber to be damaged. Kylo who was trained by Luke and Snoke, stopped a blaster bolt and held a conversation.
- Uses telekinesis to clear a landslide of boulders.
Again. With minimal training, and having put in no work aside from swinging her lightsaber at a rock and accidentally damaging it.
By the third movie she already been given it all, without putting in any work. There was nowhere to go for at that point, so they literally had to add force powers that hadn't been seen in the movies. Or let her use existing powers in ways that hadn't been used. For example pulling a transport out of the air.
Luke and Anakin both put in work training, and grew in the force over the course of years in the movies. They had setbacks and losses, where they had to go back, lick their wounds, to ultimately come back and try to conquer a certain obstacle. Luke did this and became a Jedi. Anakin came back and defeated Dooku, be he never actually conquered all his demons and went dark as a result, even though he had trained over half his life.
Rey on the other hand was given everything in the span of a week at most. She never trained, minimal lessons from Luke, and put in no work. She could just do everything. It just wasn't believable, especially when you consider what the protagonists went through in the previous trilogies to get to the same level.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 12:11:40 GMT
Another thing worth pointing out: Rey, the Jedi sue goddess herself in RoTS was kind of sloppy. When training with the remote Kylo interrupted her, she was distracted, pissed, unbalanced...and could barely handle the remote...taking awkward lunges at it, barely dealing with it, and missing it with some fairly basic Force abilities. As her detractors love pointing out we have seen her do some fairly impressive things...yet there she looked like she never touched a saber before.
Emotional distractions can unbalance a Force user. We have seen it before, we saw it in 9...and Rey wasn't even injured.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 6, 2020 12:25:49 GMT
Another thing worth pointing out: Rey, the Jedi sue goddess herself in RoTS was kind of sloppy. When training with the remote Kylo interrupted her, she was distracted, pissed, unbalanced...and could barely handle the remote...taking awkward lunges at it, barely dealing with it, and missing it with some fairly basic Force abilities. As her detractors love pointing out we have seen her do some fairly impressive things...yet there she looked like she never touched a saber before. Emotional distractions can unbalance a Force user. We have seen it before, we saw it in 9...and Rey wasn't even injured.
You guys are just proving my complaints.
As I said in another post.
I don't really care who won the fight, but the outcome and the reasons for the outcome should match what was shown in the movie. If someone is injured, they should look injured. Not I think he may have looked for a couple of moments like it, but I can't really tell. They should look injured. If someone is going through something mentally, they should look distracted. The first the audience is hearing about mental incapacity shouldn't be the next movie. They should be able to tell it from what they saw.
Rey actually saw a vision, became distracted and the practice droid hit her as a result. As opposed to someone losing a fight, and then after the fact someone says, oh he was distracted. Even though there was no evidence of it at the time.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 6, 2020 12:33:11 GMT
I don't really care who won the fight, but the outcome and the reasons for the outcome should match what was shown in the movie. Remember how in OT Luke spent years training in the ways of Force before beating Vader in a duel? Neither do I.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 6, 2020 12:46:38 GMT
I don't really care who won the fight, but the outcome and the reasons for the outcome should match what was shown in the movie. Remember how in OT Luke spent years training in the ways of Force before beating Vader in a duel? Neither do I.
Those are two completely different things.
People said Kylo lost the fight to Rey because he was mentally conflicted. So I said he should have looked mentally conflicted and distracted during the fight. Not just have someone say he was mentally conflicted.
There was no specific reason given as an explanation of Vader's loss in that fight that was not backed up by what occurred on the screen, like there was in Kylo's fight with Rey.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 6, 2020 14:31:31 GMT
I don't really care who won the fight, but the outcome and the reasons for the outcome should match what was shown in the movie. Remember how in OT Luke spent years training in the ways of Force before beating Vader in a duel? Neither do I. Me neither. Luke got his *ss handed to him facing down Vader. Got his hand cut off too. He later beat Vader by giving in to the Dark Side, but recovered himself and tossed his lightsaber away afterwards. Then he got his *ss handed to him by the Emperor...
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Post by aglomeracja on Jan 6, 2020 16:06:37 GMT
Another thing worth pointing out: Rey, the Jedi sue goddess herself in RoTS was kind of sloppy. When training with the remote Kylo interrupted her, she was distracted, pissed, unbalanced...and could barely handle the remote...taking awkward lunges at it, barely dealing with it, and missing it with some fairly basic Force abilities. As her detractors love pointing out we have seen her do some fairly impressive things...yet there she looked like she never touched a saber before. Emotional distractions can unbalance a Force user. We have seen it before, we saw it in 9...and Rey wasn't even injured. She's always sloppy with the lighsaber (and so is Kylo tbh), but wins every fight anyway.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 16:19:40 GMT
Remember how in OT Luke spent years training in the ways of Force before beating Vader in a duel? Neither do I. Me neither. Luke got his *ss handed to him facing down Vader. Got his hand cut off too. He later beat Vader by giving in to the Dark Side, but recovered himself and tossed his lightsaber away afterwards. Then he got his *ss handed to him by the Emperor... It took Luke roughly 3.5-4 years of training. 3 years of self training in between ANH and TESB. Trained with Yoda for a month (lowballed estimate) and trained for an unknown amount of time in between TESB, and RoTJ with there being a year long timeskip in between films.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 17:00:29 GMT
Another thing worth pointing out: Rey, the Jedi sue goddess herself in RoTS was kind of sloppy. When training with the remote Kylo interrupted her, she was distracted, pissed, unbalanced...and could barely handle the remote...taking awkward lunges at it, barely dealing with it, and missing it with some fairly basic Force abilities. As her detractors love pointing out we have seen her do some fairly impressive things...yet there she looked like she never touched a saber before. Emotional distractions can unbalance a Force user. We have seen it before, we saw it in 9...and Rey wasn't even injured. She's always sloppy with the lighsaber (and so is Kylo tbh), but wins every fight anyway. Look at how sloppy Snoke's royal guards were and these guys were supposed to be the best. The choreography for the sequel trilogy has been sloppy in general. Remember when Kylo awkwardly spun his saber to defend his back then waited half a minute for that Knight of Ren to attack him, and the idiot after having such a long time to change his target still chose to attack Kylo's saber and got sent flying back?
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 6, 2020 17:01:18 GMT
But, we did get something. Rey said she was a pilot. No, we didn't. Saying "I'm a pilot" a few seconds before jumping into a cockpit isn't an explanation for why you can excellently fly a spaceship. Look, it's real simple. If a character is supposed to have some really impressive skill for plot purposes then you give them a backstory or profession where it makes clear sense for them to have that skill. And if you can't then you come up with some cool explanation or at least bring it up well beforehand so the audience isn't blindsided by it. Something. Anything. What you cannot do is make a nurse expertly fire up a helicopter with no explanation whatsoever for how or why s/he obtained that skill. That's exactly what Rey does, over and over again. We aren't rolling our eyes at it because it is cool and...for some reason...acceptable that Luke is doing these things. Again, if you think about it...it does not make any sense whatsoever. Heimdall is right about how desperate the Rebellion was to let him fly but do you think we would let Luke fly a combat mission for the US Airforce IRL with only 'shotting womprats' as his only accomplishment? Would the Imperial Navy have let Luke fly a mission of that importance if he were doing it from the other side if that was his only experience? No, that'd be ridicilious. The only reason Luke gets away with it is because Star Wars is a fantastical setting with this thing called 'The Force' which can grant invididuals a 'cheat code' that helps them. Not just Jedi either but its a good explanation for any number of the 'lucky' instances that happens in Star Wars, like the stormtroopers having such shitty aim, or any other number of the tough scrapes. I make allowances for it because it makes sense to me and it doubly makes sense given all we know about the Force. I extend the same consistency to Rey's feats in TFA. if I were to complain about one I'd have to complain about the other. Again, the fact that Luke's ability as a pilot stretches our suspension of disbelief a bit isn't in question. The issue is that his one ability is established well in advance and has obvious relevance to the specific use it's eventually put to. None of that thought is put into building Rey as an even remotely believable character. See if you can spot a pattern here: - Rey is accosted by several thugs bigger, older and presumably more criminally hardened than she is. BAM. Rey just so happens to be a skilled martial artist who can take on several thugs in quick succession without breaking a sweat. No explanation is given for how, why or when she came by this expertise either before or after we're shown she has it. - Rey and Finn need to escape the First Order patrol and the only conceivable way out is stealing a ship and flying away. Finn can't fly. BAM. Rey just so happens to be a skilled pilot who can get the hang of a ramshackle ship she's presumably never flown before and lead a First Order Squadron on an acrobatic merry chase. No explanation is given for how, why or when she came by this expertise either before or after we're shown she has it. - The Millenium Falcon is malfunctioning, years of shoddy maintenance combined with stressful handling are taking their toll. Han Solo, who has spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours of his life in that cockpit and knows the ship like the back of his own hand, can't get it to work. BAM. Rey just so happens to be a genius ship engineer who can optimize the Falcon to perform perfectly in ways he never even realized were possible over the course of five minutes. No explanation is given for how, why or when she came by this expertise either before or after we're shown she has it. - Kylo Ren has captured Rey. We've seen him perform feats with the force that nobody else in the series ever has, including tearing information clean out of the head of a war hero who withstood torture. Rey isn't anywhere near that disciplined or hardened yet. She's clearly about to give up everything she knows. BAM. Rey just so happens to not only be Force sensitive, but to be so much more powerful than he is that she intuitively turns the tables on him and tears information out of his head instead, having had no idea that any of this was even possible before she just went and did it. No explanation for how she was capable of immediately overpowering his obvious strength and decades of experience wielding the Force is given either before or after we see her do it. - Rey is secured in a locked room with a single guard. She can't tear herself free, and the guard is neither stupid nor cooperative so far as we know. BAM. Rey just so happens to not only realize that the Jedi Mind Trick is a thing and that she could theoretically do it, but actually masters it over the span of about a minute with no guidance or instruction from anyone, frees herself without any issue and starts leaving the compound, armed with the guard's blaster. No explanation or indication is given for how she figured this difficult Force power out so quickly or easily all by herself either before or after we see her do it. - Kylo has cornered Rey in another forest. He's hurt from Chewbacca's bowcaster, but still dangerous enough to put down a fit and determined grown man trained in hand-to-hand combat wielding a lightsaber of higher quality than his own. Rey is unarmed, has just woken up from unconsciousness after a hard fall and Kylo tries to call Finn's lightsaber to him. BAM. The lightsaber which barely responded to his power just so happens to fly into her hands. No explanation for why this happens is given before or after. - Squaring off, Rey is now facing Kylo with a weapon she's never fought with before. Even accidentally trying to use it the way she's been using her quarterstaff would at best result in her vaporizing one of her own hands, and could easily lose her an arm. She's no match for his decades of experience fighting and killing with his saber, and he's more determined than she is. BAM. She just so happens to figure out not only how to defend herself with a lightsaber well enough to match a much stronger opponent, but she almost slashes his face in half after taking a moment to center herself. No explanation is given for how she overcomes the skill gap between them or what motivates or goes through her head to attune her so well to the Force before or after she does it. She just does. Luke flying an X-Wing okay well after we've been told repeatedly that he's an excellent pilot just doesn't compare. She repeatedly and consistently manifests talents we never heard about her having before out of thin air as the plot demands it, and no effort is even made to justify it afterwards. She's a classic Mary Sue.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 17:29:20 GMT
But, we did get something. Rey said she was a pilot. No, we didn't. Saying "I'm a pilot" a few seconds before jumping into a cockpit isn't an explanation for why you can excellently fly a spaceship. Look, it's real simple. If a character is supposed to have some really impressive skill for plot purposes then you give them a backstory or profession where it makes clear sense for them to have that skill. And if you can't then you come up with some cool explanation or at least bring it up well beforehand so the audience isn't blindsided by it. Something. Anything. What you cannot do is make a nurse expertly fire up a helicopter with no explanation whatsoever for how or why s/he obtained that skill. That's exactly what Rey does, over and over again. We aren't rolling our eyes at it because it is cool and...for some reason...acceptable that Luke is doing these things. Again, if you think about it...it does not make any sense whatsoever. Heimdall is right about how desperate the Rebellion was to let him fly but do you think we would let Luke fly a combat mission for the US Airforce IRL with only 'shotting womprats' as his only accomplishment? Would the Imperial Navy have let Luke fly a mission of that importance if he were doing it from the other side if that was his only experience? No, that'd be ridicilious. The only reason Luke gets away with it is because Star Wars is a fantastical setting with this thing called 'The Force' which can grant invididuals a 'cheat code' that helps them. Not just Jedi either but its a good explanation for any number of the 'lucky' instances that happens in Star Wars, like the stormtroopers having such shitty aim, or any other number of the tough scrapes. I make allowances for it because it makes sense to me and it doubly makes sense given all we know about the Force. I extend the same consistency to Rey's feats in TFA. if I were to complain about one I'd have to complain about the other. Again, the fact that Luke's ability as a pilot stretches our suspension of disbelief a bit isn't in question. The issue is that his one ability is established well in advance and has obvious relevance to the specific use it's eventually put to. None of that thought is put into building Rey as an even remotely believable character. See if you can spot a pattern here: - Rey is accosted by several thugs bigger, older and presumably more criminally hardened than she is. BAM. Rey just so happens to be a skilled martial artist who can take on several thugs in quick succession without breaking a sweat. No explanation is given for how, why or when she came by this expertise either before or after we're shown she has it. - Rey and Finn need to escape the First Order patrol and the only conceivable way out is stealing a ship and flying away. Finn can't fly. BAM. Rey just so happens to be a skilled pilot who can get the hang of a ramshackle ship she's presumably never flown before and lead a First Order Squadron on an acrobatic merry chase. No explanation is given for how, why or when she came by this expertise either before or after we're shown she has it. - The Millenium Falcon is malfunctioning, years of shoddy maintenance combined with stressful handling are taking their toll. Han Solo, who has spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours of his life in that cockpit and knows the ship like the back of his own hand, can't get it to work. BAM. Rey just so happens to be a genius ship engineer who can optimize the Falcon to perform perfectly in ways he never even realized were possible over the course of five minutes. No explanation is given for how, why or when she came by this expertise either before or after we're shown she has it. - Kylo Ren has captured Rey. We've seen him perform feats with the force that nobody else in the series ever has, including tearing information clean out of the head of a war hero who withstood torture. Rey isn't anywhere near that disciplined or hardened yet. She's clearly about to give up everything she knows. BAM. Rey just so happens to not only be Force sensitive, but to be so much more powerful than he is that she intuitively turns the tables on him and tears information out of his head instead, having had no idea that any of this was even possible before she just went and did it. No explanation for how she was capable of immediately overpowering his obvious strength and decades of experience wielding the Force is given either before or after we see her do it. - Rey is secured in a locked room with a single guard. She can't tear herself free, and the guard is neither stupid nor cooperative so far as we know. BAM. Rey just so happens to not only realize that the Jedi Mind Trick is a thing and that she could theoretically do it, but actually masters it over the span of about a minute with no guidance or instruction from anyone, frees herself without any issue and starts leaving the compound, armed with the guard's blaster. No explanation or indication is given for how she figured this difficult Force power out so quickly or easily all by herself either before or after we see her do it. - Kylo has cornered Rey in another forest. He's hurt from Chewbacca's bowcaster, but still dangerous enough to put down a fit and determined grown man trained in hand-to-hand combat wielding a lightsaber of higher quality than his own. Rey is unarmed, has just woken up from unconsciousness after a hard fall and Kylo tries to call Finn's lightsaber to him. BAM. The lightsaber which barely responded to his power just so happens to fly into her hands. No explanation for why this happens is given before or after. - Squaring off, Rey is now facing Kylo with a weapon she's never fought with before. Even accidentally trying to use it the way she's been using her quarterstaff would at best result in her vaporizing one of her own hands, and could easily lose her an arm. She's no match for his decades of experience fighting and killing with his saber, and he's more determined than she is. BAM. She just so happens to figure out not only how to defend herself with a lightsaber well enough to match a much stronger opponent, but she almost slashes his face in half after taking a moment to center herself. No explanation is given for how she overcomes the skill gap between them or what motivates or goes through her head to attune her so well to the Force before or after she does it. She just does. Luke flying an X-Wing okay well after we've been told repeatedly that he's an excellent pilot just doesn't compare. She repeatedly and consistently manifests talents we never heard about her having before out of thin air as the plot demands it, and no effort is even made to justify it afterwards. She's a classic Mary Sue. Supposition, it is never revealed how old, hardened, or experienced these thugs are. They are also unarmed and that was supposed to be her establishment on her knowing her staff. Presumption: She actually probably has flown the Falcon before. You got me, she is pretty handy with the Falcon. But don't you think it makes sense if she's a scavenger? She clearly knows the ship well enough to know that Plutt made modifications so she does know more then Han...at that moment anyways? You're right here her initial resistance is a little far fetched actually. She masters it after struggling with it, against a Stormtrooper. No one has an issue with Luke mastering Force telekinesis after a few seconds on Hoth. Stormtroopers are noted as having weak will. Also there are several explanations for her being able to use it. The movie does not need to give an explanation one can easily be inferred. Given what we know I don't think Kylo was using the Force at all. The injury was clearly having a debilitating effect on him...over time.. like wounds do. And also there is literally no evidence Kylo has ever actually fought before now...Saber to Saber with a skilled combatant. Most laughable claim of all, she is not a 'classic' Mary Sue given that a classic Mary Sue has nothing to do with specialness and everything to do with being a self insert...and no one has explained how she's that for JJ, or anyone else.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 6, 2020 17:30:37 GMT
But, we did get something. Rey said she was a pilot. No, we didn't. Saying "I'm a pilot" a few seconds before jumping into a cockpit isn't an explanation for why you can excellently fly a spaceship. Look, it's real simple. If a character is supposed to have some really impressive skill for plot purposes then you give them a backstory or profession where it makes clear sense for them to have that skill. And if you can't then you come up with some cool explanation or at least bring it up well beforehand so the audience isn't blindsided by it. Something. Anything. What you cannot do is make a nurse expertly fire up a helicopter with no explanation whatsoever for how or why s/he obtained that skill. That's exactly what Rey does, over and over again. ... Except, as the movie demonstrated she CAN'T excellently fly the ship at first, indicating she is at least new to THIS ship. We don't know what type of ship she is used to flying. "Blindsided" is a term you could use. "Surprising revelation of skill" would probably be more appropriate. I'm still not sure why a backstory is needed for this, other than as something to complain about. I'm pretty sure that rule is something you are making up, and stories or movies do just fine with characters revealing hidden talents that are self-explanatory. Someone in a movie starts using medical treatment, "I'm a nurse" is a good explanation, but Rey flying, even expertly (doesn't look expertly BTW, mostly lucky), a ship and saying "I'm a pilot" is not - mkay. Rey flying the Falcon "expertly":
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2020 17:36:04 GMT
No, we didn't. Saying "I'm a pilot" a few seconds before jumping into a cockpit isn't an explanation for why you can excellently fly a spaceship. Look, it's real simple. If a character is supposed to have some really impressive skill for plot purposes then you give them a backstory or profession where it makes clear sense for them to have that skill. And if you can't then you come up with some cool explanation or at least bring it up well beforehand so the audience isn't blindsided by it. Something. Anything. What you cannot do is make a nurse expertly fire up a helicopter with no explanation whatsoever for how or why s/he obtained that skill. That's exactly what Rey does, over and over again. ... Except, as the movie demonstrated she CAN'T excellently fly the ship at first, indicating she is at least new to THIS ship. We don't know what type of ship she is used to flying. "Blindsided" is a term you could use. "Surprising revelation of skill" would probably be more appropriate. I'm still not sure why a backstory is needed for this, other than as something to complain about. I'm pretty sure that is something you are making up, and stories or movies do just fine with characters revealing hidden talents that are self-explanatory. Someone in a movie starts using medial treatment, "I'm a nurse" is a good explanation, but Rey flying a ship and saying "I'ma pilot" I think of Independence day everytime someone says that...
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 6, 2020 18:10:07 GMT
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 6, 2020 18:28:10 GMT
Reylos not even once. Sinking that ship was the best thing JJ did since directing MI3.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 6, 2020 18:47:11 GMT
Well, Luke’s childhood best friend Biggs was there and probably vouched for his talent. Enough for the rebels, who must have had more ships than able pilots, to take the desperate step of throwing him in a cockpit. Good enough explanation for why they let him in, not why he was so successful. Of course if the Rebellion was that desperate one wonders how they ever really had any success against the Empire. I realize I’m resurrecting this but... Let’s be honest, how much fancy flying did Luke really do in that battle? I’m comfortable chalking his performance up to a mix of talent at flying in general from previous practice and force-given reaction time. I’m actually pretty comfortable extending that same lenience Rey myself.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 6, 2020 19:09:45 GMT
Good enough explanation for why they let him in, not why he was so successful. Of course if the Rebellion was that desperate one wonders how they ever really had any success against the Empire. I realize I’m resurrecting this but... Let’s be honest, how much fancy flying did Luke really do in that battle? I’m comfortable chalking his performance up to a mix of talent at flying in general from previous practice and force-given reaction time. I’m actually pretty comfortable extending that same lenience Rey myself.
Well, just in case anyone wants to know the actual answer of why Luke was able to fly an X-Wing aside from his previous piloting experience. In the EU, the T-16 and the X-wing were made by the same manufacturer. Since the T-16 was the basis for the X-Wing the controls were pretty much the same. T-16's were re-purposed as fighter craft when the Rebellion first started.
That is the fact of the day
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Post by skekSil on Jan 6, 2020 19:55:34 GMT
I realize I’m resurrecting this but... Let’s be honest, how much fancy flying did Luke really do in that battle? I’m comfortable chalking his performance up to a mix of talent at flying in general from previous practice and force-given reaction time. I’m actually pretty comfortable extending that same lenience Rey myself.
Well, just in case anyone wants to know the actual answer of why Luke was able to fly an X-Wing aside from his previous piloting experience. In the EU, the T-16 and the X-wing were made by the same manufacturer. Since the T-16 was the basis for the X-Wing the controls were pretty much the same. T-16's were re-purposed as fighter craft when the Rebellion first started.
That is the fact of the day None of this is in the movie. I guess that means that ANH is full of plot holes and we shouldn't like it.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 6, 2020 20:05:24 GMT
Well, just in case anyone wants to know the actual answer of why Luke was able to fly an X-Wing aside from his previous piloting experience. In the EU, the T-16 and the X-wing were made by the same manufacturer. Since the T-16 was the basis for the X-Wing the controls were pretty much the same. T-16's were re-purposed as fighter craft when the Rebellion first started.
That is the fact of the day None of this is in the movie. I guess that means that ANH is full of plot holes and we shouldn't like it. Even if Luke was only an "adequate pilot" keep in mind that the Death Star had showed up to blow the Rebel base to smithereens. They were throwing everything and everyone they could at it hoping to get lucky. Note that Luke wasn't in the first wave to make the run. He was the third, if I recall correctly.
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