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Post by smilesja on Feb 3, 2020 4:29:58 GMT
Secret option E: All the above.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 3, 2020 4:53:01 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2020 5:14:56 GMT
I forgot. Back when SW was still good and the EU was better than anything past RotJ. (Note: I loved Finn & Poe a lot in TFA but they went downhill afterward and never recovered.) Like Hux both of their actors deserved better. IIRC EU Palpatine's sole reason for being interested in the Unknown Regions was the Vong threat Ah, the moment you realized that the villain you hated for years was doing what he did in part to protect the galaxy from something far worse.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2020 6:06:26 GMT
Like Hux both of their actors deserved better. IIRC EU Palpatine's sole reason for being interested in the Unknown Regions was the Vong threat Ah, the moment you realized that the villain you hated for years was doing what he did in part to protect the galaxy from something far worse. It is an interesting thought experiment: I mean Palps was still an evil bastard so he would probably do what he was going to do anyways...but did his knowledge of the Vong accelerate the timeline? For the moment this is idle speculation but I've always wondered. Doesn't absolve him by any stretch of the imagination but it is an interesting thought.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2020 6:21:36 GMT
Ah, the moment you realized that the villain you hated for years was doing what he did in part to protect the galaxy from something far worse. It is an interesting thought experiment: I mean Palps was still an evil bastard so he would probably do what he was going to do anyways...but did his knowledge of the Vong accelerate the timeline? For the moment this is idle speculation but I've always wondered. Doesn't absolve him by any stretch of the imagination but it is an interesting thought. Oh, of course. The main reason he did it was almost certainly to protect what he saw as belonging to him rather than for the good of the people and it by no means excuses the atrocities he committed. But yeah, it does put all the things he did like the unified and centralized government to the massive star fleets to the super weapons powerful enough to destroy a planet or even an entire star system into a new perspective when you realize they were just as much if not more defensive measures as offensive ones. Compared to the Yuuzhan Vong, life under the Empire would look like an utopia in comparison (it even kind of was in reality, since overall things like crime, poverty, etc were down compared to the Republic).
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2020 6:28:45 GMT
It is an interesting thought experiment: I mean Palps was still an evil bastard so he would probably do what he was going to do anyways...but did his knowledge of the Vong accelerate the timeline? For the moment this is idle speculation but I've always wondered. Doesn't absolve him by any stretch of the imagination but it is an interesting thought. Oh, of course. The main reason he did it was almost certainly to protect what he saw as belonging to him rather than for the good of the people and it by no means excuses the atrocities he committed. But yeah, it does put all the things he did like the unified and centralized government to the massive star fleets to the super weapons powerful enough to destroy a planet or even an entire star system into a new perspective when you realize they were just as much if not more defensive measures as offensive ones. Compared to the Yuuzhan Vong, life under the Empire would look like an utopia in comparison (it even kind of was in reality, since overall things like crime, poverty, etc were down compared to the Republic). Yet on the flip side it is kind of interesting that all those Superweapons probably would've done jack crap in the end. The New Republic forces only started to make headway when they started to adopt the 'soft' tactics of the Rebellion. Especially when Jaina started to take on the mantle of Yun Haarla (hope I spelled that right), I doubt the Empire would've beat the Vong by itself.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 3, 2020 7:24:16 GMT
Ah, the moment you realized that the villain you hated for years was doing what he did in part to protect the galaxy from something far worse. It is an interesting thought experiment: I mean Palps was still an evil bastard so he would probably do what he was going to do anyways...but did his knowledge of the Vong accelerate the timeline? For the moment this is idle speculation but I've always wondered. Doesn't absolve him by any stretch of the imagination but it is an interesting thought. "Evil so evil it hates other evil"
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Post by Iakus on Feb 3, 2020 15:11:28 GMT
Like Hux both of their actors deserved better. IIRC EU Palpatine's sole reason for being interested in the Unknown Regions was the Vong threat Ah, the moment you realized that the villain you hated for years was doing what he did in part to protect the galaxy from something far worse. Debatable. The Vong threat only really explained his obsession with "superweapons". Predators only protect their territory from other predators because they don't want to share. Doesn't mean one is "worse" than the other. In the end, you still get eaten.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 3, 2020 15:14:11 GMT
Oh, of course. The main reason he did it was almost certainly to protect what he saw as belonging to him rather than for the good of the people and it by no means excuses the atrocities he committed. But yeah, it does put all the things he did like the unified and centralized government to the massive star fleets to the super weapons powerful enough to destroy a planet or even an entire star system into a new perspective when you realize they were just as much if not more defensive measures as offensive ones. Compared to the Yuuzhan Vong, life under the Empire would look like an utopia in comparison (it even kind of was in reality, since overall things like crime, poverty, etc were down compared to the Republic). Yet on the flip side it is kind of interesting that all those Superweapons probably would've done jack crap in the end. The New Republic forces only started to make headway when they started to adopt the 'soft' tactics of the Rebellion. Especially when Jaina started to take on the mantle of Yun Haarla (hope I spelled that right), I doubt the Empire would've beat the Vong by itself. "What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong–killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
Han Solo Edit: Also the battle started to turn when the Jedi started taking the field on a regular basis. Specifically, when Jacen and Jaina started learning more about their enemies (the Yun Harla example, as well as Jacen's lessons from Vergere)
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2020 22:27:25 GMT
Ihave to wonder with all the flack the Sequels get these days...would the OT be as well recieved if it were released today?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 3, 2020 22:51:08 GMT
Ihave to wonder with all the flack the Sequels get these days...would the OT be as well recieved if it were released today? A New Hope Special Edition wasn't that well received in the 90s, if memory serves.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2020 22:54:40 GMT
Ihave to wonder with all the flack the Sequels get these days...would the OT be as well recieved if it were released today? A New Hope Special Edition wasn't that well received in the 90s, if memory serves. that was because of the changes though.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2020 23:28:23 GMT
Ihave to wonder with all the flack the Sequels get these days...would the OT be as well recieved if it were released today? Probably not. Then again the movie landscape would be completely different if that movie didn’t come out back then so who knows.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 3, 2020 23:32:23 GMT
I'm sorry Finn's arc didn't resonate with you...I found it interesting and compelling. A natural extension of his character arc from TFA (nothing was solved in TFA in regards to his character) He wasn't treated as comic relief...and he was acting kind of like a dumey. (Just like Poe, Holdo, Luke, Rey, Kylo, etc etc etc.) I'm sorry Kylo's arc didn't resonate with you. I always liked his character from the beginning. (He is what Anakin should have been). And his character only got better and better with each movie. Sure he was everything that you said he was, and more...but then wasn't Anakin similar? Didn't he kill civllians and children on a fairly regular occasion? Was the failures of the Jedi Order to deal with Anakin like a common human being just 'justification' for his fall to the darkside? Luke made a tragic mistake, Ben misinterpreted in a tragic manner. The story was a sad one...and it resonated with me. And he wasn't the only heart and soul of the sequels...Luke and Rey and him were the trifecta of awesome which caried the entire Sequel Trilogy, for me. Talked about Finn above, he had an interesting arc through 7 and 8 at the very least...so...I do feel kind of sorry for you if that's the only message you got from Finn's story. Now I'm curious. Specifically what is Finn's character arc in TFA and TLJ to your mind, and which exact moments are you basing it on? Because I also found his development in TFA nonsensical and was also seriously disturbed by some of the messages coming off of his subplot in TLJ. Anakin fell to the dark side because he had become genuinely convinced that Palpatine's dictatorial policies were the best thing for the galaxy, and because his immaturity and consistently growing ego and entitlement didn't allow for a world where he had to lose the person who mattered most to him in the universe. Kylo fell to the dark side because his uncle gave him a late-night scare. We never learn what he intended for the galaxy beyond "kill the past". We never even find out what he originally wanted from Snoke. Just power for power's sake? And Anakin returned to the light because his own son demonstrated profound strength of character and trust in him and was subsequently threatened with death, rekindling the exact protective feelings that had once caused him to fall but this time from a place of compassion and duty rather than fear. And he died merely happy that some small part of his soul had been salvaged, and wanted his children to know that it was all thanks to them. Kylo returns to the light because some chick he hadn't spent more than an hour talking to in his life killed him in self-defense and then somehow took it back, did a complete 180' from personally having been in the process of conquering the galaxy in his own name to explicitly forgiving himself for killing his father and countless others in cold blood. And then he died with nothing whatsoever indicating what he was thinking. I'll concede that Kylo was better acted than Hayden Christensen's Anakin was. But not by that much, and certainly not enough to offset the difference in writing quality and unity of theme.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 3, 2020 23:42:44 GMT
Ihave to wonder with all the flack the Sequels get these days...would the OT be as well recieved if it were released today? A New Hope Special Edition wasn't that well received in the 90s, if memory serves. Largely because the spliced in scenes weren't done very well. And of course, Han not shooting first anymore.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 3, 2020 23:44:34 GMT
Ihave to wonder with all the flack the Sequels get these days...would the OT be as well recieved if it were released today? Not a fair comparison, since ANH completely reshaped modern cinema. We still feel its effects today.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 4, 2020 0:11:27 GMT
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Post by cypherj on Feb 4, 2020 0:14:55 GMT
Would have loved to see how this movie would have shaped out.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2020 0:38:16 GMT
I'm sorry Finn's arc didn't resonate with you...I found it interesting and compelling. A natural extension of his character arc from TFA (nothing was solved in TFA in regards to his character) He wasn't treated as comic relief...and he was acting kind of like a dumey. (Just like Poe, Holdo, Luke, Rey, Kylo, etc etc etc.) I'm sorry Kylo's arc didn't resonate with you. I always liked his character from the beginning. (He is what Anakin should have been). And his character only got better and better with each movie. Sure he was everything that you said he was, and more...but then wasn't Anakin similar? Didn't he kill civllians and children on a fairly regular occasion? Was the failures of the Jedi Order to deal with Anakin like a common human being just 'justification' for his fall to the darkside? Luke made a tragic mistake, Ben misinterpreted in a tragic manner. The story was a sad one...and it resonated with me. And he wasn't the only heart and soul of the sequels...Luke and Rey and him were the trifecta of awesome which caried the entire Sequel Trilogy, for me. Talked about Finn above, he had an interesting arc through 7 and 8 at the very least...so...I do feel kind of sorry for you if that's the only message you got from Finn's story. Now I'm curious. Specifically what is Finn's character arc in TFA and TLJ to your mind, and which exact moments are you basing it on? Because I also found his development in TFA nonsensical and was also seriously disturbed by some of the messages coming off of his subplot in TLJ. Anakin fell to the dark side because he had become genuinely convinced that Palpatine's dictatorial policies were the best thing for the galaxy, and because his immaturity and consistently growing ego and entitlement didn't allow for a world where he had to lose the person who mattered most to him in the universe. Kylo fell to the dark side because his uncle gave him a late-night scare. We never learn what he intended for the galaxy beyond "kill the past". We never even find out what he originally wanted from Snoke. Just power for power's sake? And Anakin returned to the light because his own son demonstrated profound strength of character and trust in him and was subsequently threatened with death, rekindling the exact protective feelings that had once caused him to fall but this time from a place of compassion and duty rather than fear. And he died merely happy that some small part of his soul had been salvaged, and wanted his children to know that it was all thanks to them. Kylo returns to the light because some chick he hadn't spent more than an hour talking to in his life killed him in self-defense and then somehow took it back, did a complete 180' from personally having been in the process of conquering the galaxy in his own name to explicitly forgive himself for killing his father and countless others in cold blood. And then he died with nothing whatsoever indicating what he was thinking. I'll concede that Kylo was better acted than Hayden Christensen's Anakin was. But not by that much, and certainly not enough to offset the difference in writing quality and unity of theme. Finn's character arc between the two movies is one cohesive whole to me. In TFA he was a selfish scared man whose only objective was to get away from the First Order no matter what and he did not see any way in how the Resitance could possibly beat their entire destructive power so he wanted to run...and often did. Throughout the movie he learned to start caring about someone else...specifically one other person. But since this one person was a very attractive woman about the same age as he who also was the first person to even treat him like a human being it was still a pretty self centered look for him and the character. In TLJ from the first word out of his mouth indicated that he still hasn't gotten over 'her'. "Where's Rey?" He asks. His first action when he wakes up was to abandon the Resistance just to lead Rey away from a hopeless cause since they were under siege by the First Order. Throughout the rest of the movie he is presented with a choice offered to him by two characters: Rose who believes in the Resistance and believes in a higher cause no matter what would happen to themselves...that some things are worth fighting for. And DJ, who basically reaffirms his old behavior. He is selfish and he "Doesen't Join" any causes, he is a very selfish individual because everything is meaningless to him and everything is a cycle. In the end Finn chooses to go with the Rose way...which then puts him in the same position that Poe was in the beginning of the movie...that making sacrifices for the 'cause' is just and proper...that its a good idea to throw your life away, and a lot of other people, as long as it achieves the objective. But then Rose reminds him, again...that needlessly throwing your life away is not a good thing...and it would've been a meaningless sacrifice. As an aside two quick notes. Rian has been getting a lot of flack for having Rose 'explain' to him what its like to be a slave...after all he is one. But when would he have gotten exposed to the outside world and outside conditions? He wouldn't have. All he knew at that point was whatever propaganda was force fed to him by the First Order. Secondly, now I liked his character in TFA but I really do not know why he gets so much credit. Sure the idea of Finn was interesting and his backstory in the movie was interesting but most of what he did was pine after Rey, yell her name, or just do a lot of yelling in general. And he stood up to a random Stormtrooper...and got his arse kicked...and he stood up to Kylo Ren...and got his arse kicked. TLJ really helped flesh him out. Perhaps the saddest part though was that it didn't give JJ much room to go with in TROS...not that was needed but his development did end with TLJ. As for Kylo...his character arc, or at least his redemption was a lot more complicated then that. So lets see here...why Ben fell to the darkside was that A. Snoke manipulated him and B. Because Luke 'attempted to kill him'. Throughout the series this was a man in an extreme amount of pain and a man that was constantly being 'seduced' to the light. What he thought was the answer to getting rid of his pain was to burn down everything around him and let the past die. Kill it if he had to. Quite brutally. Especially true when it came to his family, or anything related to them but then he applied that logic around to the rest of the Galaxy. Ultimatley his redemption came down to realizing that he didn't have to run from his family and what he thought was him solving his pain...was just him having more of it. Plus Rey finally got through to him on a compassion level.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2020 0:42:42 GMT
Would have loved to see how this movie would have shaped out. Ooh epic shot of Rey being a bad ass- No, no must resist.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 4, 2020 1:36:11 GMT
The major problem with Kylo Ren is that ALL of his actions have no consequences. The whole Snoke manipulation and the Luke attempted murder was just a way to excuse his behavior not explain it. With Anakin all of the choices that he made was because he made a choice. It's all stupid excuses for Kylo Ren which Is why it doesnt work. As for Finn he had great potential to be someone special but instead he ends as generic resistance here #4590 because Rian Johnson was obessesed with his favorite character: Kylo. Finn hardly progresses, he doesn't think about what happened with his fight with Kylo Ren, he doesn't deal with his fellow Stormtroopers. Rian just didn't care about him and just used as comedic relief.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 4, 2020 2:00:41 GMT
Finn's character arc between the two movies is one cohesive whole to me. In TFA he was a selfish scared man whose only objective was to get away from the First Order no matter what and he did not see any way in how the Resitance could possibly beat their entire destructive power so he wanted to run...and often did. Throughout the movie he learned to start caring about someone else...specifically one other person. But since this one person was a very attractive woman about the same age as he who also was the first person to even treat him like a human being it was still a pretty self centered look for him and the character. In TLJ from the first word out of his mouth indicated that he still hasn't gotten over 'her'. "Where's Rey?" He asks. His first action when he wakes up was to abandon the Resistance just to lead Rey away from a hopeless cause since they were under siege by the First Order. Throughout the rest of the movie he is presented with a choice offered to him by two characters: Rose who believes in the Resistance and believes in a higher cause no matter what would happen to themselves...that some things are worth fighting for. And DJ, who basically reaffirms his old behavior. He is selfish and he "Doesen't Join" any causes, he is a very selfish individual because everything is meaningless to him and everything is a cycle. In the end Finn chooses to go with the Rose way...which then puts him in the same position that Poe was in the beginning of the movie...that making sacrifices for the 'cause' is just and proper...that its a good idea to throw your life away, and a lot of other people, as long as it achieves the objective. But then Rose reminds him, again...that needlessly throwing your life away is not a good thing...and it would've been a meaningless sacrifice. As an aside two quick notes. Rian has been getting a lot of flack for having Rose 'explain' to him what its like to be a slave...after all he is one. But when would he have gotten exposed to the outside world and outside conditions? He wouldn't have. All he knew at that point was whatever propaganda was force fed to him by the First Order. Secondly, now I liked his character in TFA but I really do not know why he gets so much credit. Sure the idea of Finn was interesting and his backstory in the movie was interesting but most of what he did was pine after Rey, yell her name, or just do a lot of yelling in general. And he stood up to a random Stormtrooper...and got his arse kicked...and he stood up to Kylo Ren...and got his arse kicked. TLJ really helped flesh him out. Perhaps the saddest part though was that it didn't give JJ much room to go with in TROS...not that was needed but his development did end with TLJ. As for Kylo...his character arc, or at least his redemption was a lot more complicated then that. So lets see here...why Ben fell to the darkside was that A. Snoke manipulated him and B. Because Luke 'attempted to kill him'. Throughout the series this was a man in an extreme amount of pain and a man that was constantly being 'seduced' to the light. What he thought was the answer to getting rid of his pain was to burn down everything around him and let the past die. Kill it if he had to. Quite brutally. Especially true when it came to his family, or anything related to them but then he applied that logic around to the rest of the Galaxy. Ultimatley his redemption came down to realizing that he didn't have to run from his family and what he thought was him solving his pain...was just him having more of it. Plus Rey finally got through to him on a compassion level. Except that Finn's original moments of "cowardice" are showing grief for a fellow trooper and refusing to execute people on command, right in front of Kylo Ren, and he acts concerned for Rey and moves to try to protect her from danger way before she realizes that he's even there, let alone before he gets a good look at her. If anything, he thoroughly demonstrates that he's naturally brave and helpful and empathetic, and merely thinks that the fight against the First Order is hopeless. Which is essentially justified since he knows about Starkiller Base. In TLJ his first instinct is similarly to try to protect Rey. Again, not actually cowardice. He already believes in fighting for someone, just not in sacrificing his life and those of others for no reason. The lesson you posit that he learns over the course of the movie is actually his starting position, and Rose tasers him for it because it vaguely sounds like cowardice to her. Moreover, when he meets "DJ" he doesn't recognize the man's philosophy as his own. Instead he's shocked and dumbfounded that anyone could be so cynical and pragmatic. Because Finn isn't cynical, pragmatic or cowardly. Then Rose waterboards him with sob-stories and tries to discuss economics and ethics like she's straight out of elementary school, and he's caught up in it to the point of randomly causing a bunch of property damage to rich people and endangering many presumed innocents for... reasons? Then, having been convinced that acting impulsively and destructively against perceived injustice no matter how hopeless or meaningless it is is the way to go, he proceeds to actually try to do what is necessary to save his friends, and is stopped and almost pulverized by Rose for it. And what he tries to do is absolutely not meaningless. So far as he, Poe and Rose know it's literally their only hope, barring a deus ex machina, and both Poe calling the retreat and Rose's attempt to stop Finn, again, barring a deus ex machina, effectively dooms the Resistance. If it wasn't for Luke's intervention then Poe and Rose would have been allowing the First Order to obliterate them and everything they hold dear, while almost killing Finn for having tried to do something about it. And they had no idea Luke was on his way. Meaning that so far as they knew that's exactly what they were doing. And from all this, Finn is supposed to have learned that: 1. Destroying rich people's toys and momentarily freeing animals from captivity is how you fight corruption in the world. 2. Taking affirmative action and potentially making sacrifices to preserve the lives of others is wrong, and sitting on your hands waiting for a deus ex machina is how you save yourself and the ones you care about. Those are objectively stupid and nonsensical messages, let alone personal lessons for a character. So far as I can see, this character development is the furthest thing from a cohesive whole. And as for Kylo. How does Snoke "manipulate" him? What did Snoke offer him that drew him to the dark side? What does Kylo want, specifically, that demands that he tries to follow in Darth Vader's footsteps, or subsequently just tries to take over the galaxy himself? How exactly did he go from seeing Luke standing over him with a lit lightsaber to deciding that the galaxy must be brought to heel or destroyed? Why specifically didn't he just go to his parents? Where does his lust for conquest come from, and where does it suddenly go once he turns cloak? All of those questions are pretty damn essential to trying to understand Kylo's actual motivations so as to be able to draw any kind of arc from his development, and you haven't said anything to indicate that you actually know the answer to any of them. I certainly don't, despite having seen each movie except for RoS twice. Calling his arc coherent and well-written on the basis that we know next to nothing about it doesn't seem right to me.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2020 2:21:45 GMT
Finn's character arc between the two movies is one cohesive whole to me. In TFA he was a selfish scared man whose only objective was to get away from the First Order no matter what and he did not see any way in how the Resitance could possibly beat their entire destructive power so he wanted to run...and often did. Throughout the movie he learned to start caring about someone else...specifically one other person. But since this one person was a very attractive woman about the same age as he who also was the first person to even treat him like a human being it was still a pretty self centered look for him and the character. In TLJ from the first word out of his mouth indicated that he still hasn't gotten over 'her'. "Where's Rey?" He asks. His first action when he wakes up was to abandon the Resistance just to lead Rey away from a hopeless cause since they were under siege by the First Order. Throughout the rest of the movie he is presented with a choice offered to him by two characters: Rose who believes in the Resistance and believes in a higher cause no matter what would happen to themselves...that some things are worth fighting for. And DJ, who basically reaffirms his old behavior. He is selfish and he "Doesen't Join" any causes, he is a very selfish individual because everything is meaningless to him and everything is a cycle. In the end Finn chooses to go with the Rose way...which then puts him in the same position that Poe was in the beginning of the movie...that making sacrifices for the 'cause' is just and proper...that its a good idea to throw your life away, and a lot of other people, as long as it achieves the objective. But then Rose reminds him, again...that needlessly throwing your life away is not a good thing...and it would've been a meaningless sacrifice. As an aside two quick notes. Rian has been getting a lot of flack for having Rose 'explain' to him what its like to be a slave...after all he is one. But when would he have gotten exposed to the outside world and outside conditions? He wouldn't have. All he knew at that point was whatever propaganda was force fed to him by the First Order. Secondly, now I liked his character in TFA but I really do not know why he gets so much credit. Sure the idea of Finn was interesting and his backstory in the movie was interesting but most of what he did was pine after Rey, yell her name, or just do a lot of yelling in general. And he stood up to a random Stormtrooper...and got his arse kicked...and he stood up to Kylo Ren...and got his arse kicked. TLJ really helped flesh him out. Perhaps the saddest part though was that it didn't give JJ much room to go with in TROS...not that was needed but his development did end with TLJ. As for Kylo...his character arc, or at least his redemption was a lot more complicated then that. So lets see here...why Ben fell to the darkside was that A. Snoke manipulated him and B. Because Luke 'attempted to kill him'. Throughout the series this was a man in an extreme amount of pain and a man that was constantly being 'seduced' to the light. What he thought was the answer to getting rid of his pain was to burn down everything around him and let the past die. Kill it if he had to. Quite brutally. Especially true when it came to his family, or anything related to them but then he applied that logic around to the rest of the Galaxy. Ultimatley his redemption came down to realizing that he didn't have to run from his family and what he thought was him solving his pain...was just him having more of it. Plus Rey finally got through to him on a compassion level. Except that Finn's original moments of "cowardice" are showing grief for a fellow trooper and refusing to execute people on command, right in front of Kylo Ren, and he acts concerned for Rey and moves to try to protect her from danger way before she realizes that he's even there, let alone before he gets a good look at her. If anything, he thoroughly demonstrates that he's naturally brave and helpful and empathetic, and merely thinks that the fight against the First Order is hopeless. Which is essentially justified since he knows about Starkiller Base. In TLJ his first instinct is similarly to try to protect Rey. Again, not actually cowardice. He already believes in fighting for someone, just not in sacrificing his life and those of others for no reason. The lesson you posit that he learns over the course of the movie is actually his starting position, and Rose tasers him for it because it vaguely sounds like cowardice to her. Moreover, when he meets "DJ" he doesn't recognize the man's philosophy as his own. Instead he's shocked and dumbfounded that anyone could be so cynical and pragmatic. Because Finn isn't cynical, pragmatic or cowardly. Then Rose waterboards him with sob-stories and tries to discuss economics and ethics like she's straight out of elementary school, and he's caught up in it to the point of randomly causing a bunch of property damage to rich people and endangering many presumed innocents for... reasons? Then, having been convinced that acting impulsively and destructively against perceived injustice no matter how hopeless or meaningless it is is the way to go, he proceeds to actually try to do what is necessary to save his friends, and is stopped and almost pulverized by Rose for it. And what he tries to do is absolutely not meaningless. So far as he, Poe and Rose know it's literally their only hope, barring a deus ex machina, and both Poe calling the retreat and Rose's attempt to stop Finn, again, barring a deus ex machina, effectively dooms the Resistance. If it wasn't for Luke's intervention then Poe and Rose would have been allowing the First Order to obliterate them and everything they hold dear, while almost killing Finn for having tried to do something about it. And they had no idea Luke was on his way. Meaning that so far as they knew that's exactly what they were doing. And from all this, Finn is supposed to have learned that: 1. Destroying rich people's toys and momentarily freeing animals from captivity is how you fight corruption in the world. 2. Taking affirmative action and potentially making sacrifices to preserve the lives of others is wrong, and sitting on your hands waiting for a deus ex machina is how you save yourself and the ones you care about. Those are objectively stupid and nonsensical messages, let alone personal lessons for a character. So far as I can see, this character development is the furthest thing from a cohesive whole. And as for Kylo. How does Snoke "manipulate" him? What did Snoke offer him that drew him to the dark side? What does Kylo want, specifically, that demands that he tries to follow in Darth Vader's footsteps, or subsequently just tries to take over the galaxy himself? How exactly did he go from seeing Luke standing over him with a lit lightsaber to deciding that the galaxy must be brought to heel or destroyed? Why specifically didn't he just go to his parents? Where does his lust for conquest come from, and where does it suddenly go once he turns cloak? All of those questions are pretty damn essential to trying to understand Kylo's actual motivations so as to be able to draw any kind of arc from his development, and you haven't said anything to indicate that you actually know the answer to any of them. I certainly don't, despite having seen each movie except for RoS twice. Calling his arc coherent and well-written on the basis that we know next to nothing about it doesn't seem right to me. With Finn, I suppose we just see his character differently. Yes, he moved to help Rey out and save her life but that was against a bunch of unarmed thugs at first. And at second with the FO...again attractive female who showed him some interest. Yes he tried to save her but that is far cry from having a cause. Point 2...his sacrifice there would've been meaningless, no way that dinky little speeder would've caused much damage to the battering ram cannon...assuming he made it in the first place. Poe saw it. Rose saw it. The only one who didn't see it is Finn. 1. No that is how you create a distraction letting you get off planet. Sure as he pointed out it felt good to make them suffer which is actually kind of a horrible message, but they didn't do it out of some anarchist desire to rebel they needed a way to get off the planet and get back to a ship..which it succeeded in doing that much. And I have nothing new to add to 2 that I already said. As far as Kylo is concerned. We've seen those movies before with the prequels...might it have been nice to see Kylo Ren's fall to the darkside in detail? Sure maybe. And maybe we will with comics and books and tv shows and stuff. But its not neccessary to understanding who the character is nor is it neccessary to understanding his arc in the Sequels...nice to know but not vital to the story Rian, JJ, and co were trying to tell. I mean, seriously, did we need to see Luke's entire childhood and where he was from in order to understand why he wanted to get off Tatoine? Did we need to see Rey actually messing around with her simulator or experimenting with all the machanical crap she finds in order to understand how she is a good pilot or mechanic? I don't. Kylo's arc started off with him on the dark side (much like Vader in the OT before we got the prequels, we didn't see Vader's motivations for turning evil until the prequels), and then ended with him being redeamed. We heard enough through dialogue to infer the reasons why he fell in the first place...but his story was an inverse to Rey's. A man who was trying to reject his family legacy finding out that was not a healthy thing to do.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 4, 2020 2:30:11 GMT
Why does Kylo hate his parents? That's something I never understood.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2020 2:42:29 GMT
Why does Kylo hate his parents? That's something I never understood. Because he felt they abandoned him with Luke and didn't love him. I mean there might be a little more to it then that but that's the gist.
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