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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 4, 2020 2:45:14 GMT
It is an interesting thought experiment: I mean Palps was still an evil bastard so he would probably do what he was going to do anyways...but did his knowledge of the Vong accelerate the timeline? For the moment this is idle speculation but I've always wondered. Doesn't absolve him by any stretch of the imagination but it is an interesting thought. Oh, of course. The main reason he did it was almost certainly to protect what he saw as belonging to him rather than for the good of the people and it by no means excuses the atrocities he committed. But yeah, it does put all the things he did like the unified and centralized government to the massive star fleets to the super weapons powerful enough to destroy a planet or even an entire star system into a new perspective when you realize they were just as much if not more defensive measures as offensive ones. Compared to the Yuuzhan Vong, life under the Empire would look like an utopia in comparison (it even kind of was in reality, since overall things like crime, poverty, etc were down compared to the Republic). This. Palpatine was still a genocidal megalomaniac who wouldn't tolerate any threat to his rule, especially after all of those years of him conspiring potentially going to waste.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 4, 2020 3:14:46 GMT
Yet on the flip side it is kind of interesting that all those Superweapons probably would've done jack crap in the end. The New Republic forces only started to make headway when they started to adopt the 'soft' tactics of the Rebellion. Especially when Jaina started to take on the mantle of Yun Haarla (hope I spelled that right), I doubt the Empire would've beat the Vong by itself. "What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong–killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
Han Solo Edit: Also the battle started to turn when the Jedi started taking the field on a regular basis. Specifically, when Jacen and Jaina started learning more about their enemies (the Yun Harla example, as well as Jacen's lessons from Vergere) Plus Ganner achieving meme status amongst the warrior caste, the Solo kids instigating the uprising from the Vong lower castes by exonerating a shamed warrior, then a wild Luke was set loose on Coruscant.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 4, 2020 3:16:25 GMT
Why does Kylo hate his parents? That's something I never understood. Because he felt they abandoned him with Luke and didn't love him. I mean there might be a little more to it then that but that's the gist. Kylo doesn't hate his parents. He says this explicitly in TLJ. He thinks his conscience and their judgement is holding him back from attaining power, that's why he wants to kill them - Han and Leia are basically in his way.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2020 3:20:24 GMT
"What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong–killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
Han Solo Edit: Also the battle started to turn when the Jedi started taking the field on a regular basis. Specifically, when Jacen and Jaina started learning more about their enemies (the Yun Harla example, as well as Jacen's lessons from Vergere) Plus Ganner achieving meme status amongst the warrior caste, the Solo kids instigating the uprising from the Vong lower castes by exonerating a shamed warrior, then a wild Luke was set loose on Coruscant. Oh I forgot about wild Luke...fun times.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 4, 2020 3:58:47 GMT
"Are you from Jakku because i'd like to jack you... off? What?!" - Emperor Palpatine
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2020 3:59:39 GMT
"Are you from Jakku because i'd like to jack you... off? What?!" - Emperor Palpatine *shakes head at in Obi-Wan*
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 4, 2020 4:34:43 GMT
Oh, of course. The main reason he did it was almost certainly to protect what he saw as belonging to him rather than for the good of the people and it by no means excuses the atrocities he committed. But yeah, it does put all the things he did like the unified and centralized government to the massive star fleets to the super weapons powerful enough to destroy a planet or even an entire star system into a new perspective when you realize they were just as much if not more defensive measures as offensive ones. Compared to the Yuuzhan Vong, life under the Empire would look like an utopia in comparison (it even kind of was in reality, since overall things like crime, poverty, etc were down compared to the Republic). This. Palpatine was still a genocidal megalomaniac who wouldn't tolerate any threat to his rule, especially after all of those years of him conspiring potentially going to waste.
If movie Palpatine actually knew about the Vong threat in the Unknown Regions, he wouldn't have needed a phantom menace to assume power.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 4, 2020 4:41:04 GMT
"Koo nee tang na na na ah lawah! Koo nee tang!""Cha tung ee ma chay choo raun ta nee ee choo!"
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Post by cypherj on Feb 4, 2020 12:48:05 GMT
Now I'm curious. Specifically what is Finn's character arc in TFA and TLJ to your mind, and which exact moments are you basing it on? Because I also found his development in TFA nonsensical and was also seriously disturbed by some of the messages coming off of his subplot in TLJ. Anakin fell to the dark side because he had become genuinely convinced that Palpatine's dictatorial policies were the best thing for the galaxy, and because his immaturity and consistently growing ego and entitlement didn't allow for a world where he had to lose the person who mattered most to him in the universe. Kylo fell to the dark side because his uncle gave him a late-night scare. We never learn what he intended for the galaxy beyond "kill the past". We never even find out what he originally wanted from Snoke. Just power for power's sake? And Anakin returned to the light because his own son demonstrated profound strength of character and trust in him and was subsequently threatened with death, rekindling the exact protective feelings that had once caused him to fall but this time from a place of compassion and duty rather than fear. And he died merely happy that some small part of his soul had been salvaged, and wanted his children to know that it was all thanks to them. Kylo returns to the light because some chick he hadn't spent more than an hour talking to in his life killed him in self-defense and then somehow took it back, did a complete 180' from personally having been in the process of conquering the galaxy in his own name to explicitly forgive himself for killing his father and countless others in cold blood. And then he died with nothing whatsoever indicating what he was thinking. I'll concede that Kylo was better acted than Hayden Christensen's Anakin was. But not by that much, and certainly not enough to offset the difference in writing quality and unity of theme. Finn's character arc between the two movies is one cohesive whole to me. In TFA he was a selfish scared man whose only objective was to get away from the First Order no matter what and he did not see any way in how the Resitance could possibly beat their entire destructive power so he wanted to run...and often did. Throughout the movie he learned to start caring about someone else...specifically one other person. But since this one person was a very attractive woman about the same age as he who also was the first person to even treat him like a human being it was still a pretty self centered look for him and the character. In TLJ from the first word out of his mouth indicated that he still hasn't gotten over 'her'. "Where's Rey?" He asks. His first action when he wakes up was to abandon the Resistance just to lead Rey away from a hopeless cause since they were under siege by the First Order. Throughout the rest of the movie he is presented with a choice offered to him by two characters: Rose who believes in the Resistance and believes in a higher cause no matter what would happen to themselves...that some things are worth fighting for. And DJ, who basically reaffirms his old behavior. He is selfish and he "Doesen't Join" any causes, he is a very selfish individual because everything is meaningless to him and everything is a cycle. In the end Finn chooses to go with the Rose way...which then puts him in the same position that Poe was in the beginning of the movie...that making sacrifices for the 'cause' is just and proper...that its a good idea to throw your life away, and a lot of other people, as long as it achieves the objective. But then Rose reminds him, again...that needlessly throwing your life away is not a good thing...and it would've been a meaningless sacrifice. As an aside two quick notes. Rian has been getting a lot of flack for having Rose 'explain' to him what its like to be a slave...after all he is one. But when would he have gotten exposed to the outside world and outside conditions? He wouldn't have. All he knew at that point was whatever propaganda was force fed to him by the First Order.
I don't think it's fair to call Finn selfish. Scared yes, selfish no. He was a slave who escaped captivity, who was doing everything he could not to go back. He wasn't Han Solo walking around saying I'm in this for me, as long as I get paid, I'm only this for the money. That's selfish. You're basically saying that any escaped slave who doesn't go back and fight for the cause against the oppressors is being selfish.
It also was not throughout the movie he started caring about someone else, it was immediately. Like many other things in this trilogy, it was right away, not worked up to. Finn's first instinct from the moment they met was to try and protect Rey and keep her safe. When the First Order troopers attacked, and the tie fighters come on scene his first instinct was to grab Rey by the hand and try to to lead her to safety, to make sure she was OK. A selfish man would have said you're on your own, I'm in this for myself, good luck. So no, not selfish. But like I said, the bond formed far too quickly. Han, Luke and Leia just didn't come together like this right away, and Obi-Wan was against making Anakin a Jedi at the start.
Then almost everything he does after that, even deciding to raid the Starkiller base is for Rey. If they had been friends a long time I could have understood, but the fixation on Rey after knowing her probably not even a day at that point just didn't seem realistic to me.
You keep calling him selfish, but I don't see it. The fact that he cares so much about someone else's welfare is the opposite of being selfish. If someone prioritizes the life of their wife, child, best friend, family member, mentor over the lives of strangers are they being selfish? If so, there have been A LOT of selfish people in movies over the years. My only issue as I said earlier was that fixation was just to strong too soon. It was immediate, and they hadn't developed any kind of relationship at that point. Nothing was worked into. Luke had hormones raging as soon as he saw Leia, but it wasn't stalker level.
My other issue with Finn was that too much of his dialogue was just over the top corny. He was the comic relief too often to be taken seriously as a character.
I also disagree on him not having seen anything. He seemed pretty knowledgeable about things, even history. He knew Han Solo as a War Hero, and the General that fought beside Luke Skywalker in the rebellion. First Order propaganda would not have painted Solo in this light. He also knew that he was forcefully taken from his home like many other kids and forced to serve the First Order. That he had no choice in the matter. He knew what slavery was. It's not like he still thought he was fighting for a good cause, and someone had to explain to him what was going on. That he was actually in forced servitude.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 4, 2020 14:00:09 GMT
Ihave to wonder with all the flack the Sequels get these days...would the OT be as well recieved if it were released today? Sure, it's not like movie making has stood still since then. Though I bet Rian would have ruined them just as well.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 4, 2020 14:35:51 GMT
Subversion of Expectation goes like this:
a.) Get dibs on famous franchise b.) Turn it to shit
It's Disney's business model.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 4, 2020 14:41:07 GMT
With Finn, I suppose we just see his character differently. Yes, he moved to help Rey out and save her life but that was against a bunch of unarmed thugs at first. And at second with the FO...again attractive female who showed him some interest. Yes he tried to save her but that is far cry from having a cause. Point 2...his sacrifice there would've been meaningless, no way that dinky little speeder would've caused much damage to the battering ram cannon...assuming he made it in the first place. Poe saw it. Rose saw it. The only one who didn't see it is Finn. 1. No that is how you create a distraction letting you get off planet. Sure as he pointed out it felt good to make them suffer which is actually kind of a horrible message, but they didn't do it out of some anarchist desire to rebel they needed a way to get off the planet and get back to a ship..which it succeeded in doing that much. And I have nothing new to add to 2 that I already said. As far as Kylo is concerned. We've seen those movies before with the prequels...might it have been nice to see Kylo Ren's fall to the darkside in detail? Sure maybe. And maybe we will with comics and books and tv shows and stuff. But its not neccessary to understanding who the character is nor is it neccessary to understanding his arc in the Sequels...nice to know but not vital to the story Rian, JJ, and co were trying to tell. I mean, seriously, did we need to see Luke's entire childhood and where he was from in order to understand why he wanted to get off Tatoine? Did we need to see Rey actually messing around with her simulator or experimenting with all the machanical crap she finds in order to understand how she is a good pilot or mechanic? I don't. Kylo's arc started off with him on the dark side (much like Vader in the OT before we got the prequels, we didn't see Vader's motivations for turning evil until the prequels), and then ended with him being redeamed. We heard enough through dialogue to infer the reasons why he fell in the first place...but his story was an inverse to Rey's. A man who was trying to reject his family legacy finding out that was not a healthy thing to do. Apparently so. It sounds like you're basing your view of him on what you believe the writers want you to think, while I'm basing mine on his actual behavior and actions in the movies. He doesn't know or seem to care one bit whether or not the people attacking Rey are armed. The way the scene plays out he hears that there's a commotion in the... bazaar?... and instantly stands up and moves closer to help whoever is in trouble before even getting a good look at the situation. He's very obviously intending to interfere if he can, completely by instinct, even though he knows it could be dangerous. That's exceptional courage and solidarity. It's not until he gets close enough to see her and BB8 properly from the front that other priorities kick in. And he has no cause, has he? Putting aside his dedication to Rey's relative safety he immediately consents to being sent on an insanely risky and dangerous mission to save the Resistance as soon as his conversation with Rose reveals a way to turn the situation around. Again, bravery, solidarity and self-sacrifice. Rose calls him a coward, but she's clearly wrong from the audience's perspective. He does nothing cowardly or selfish or opportunistic in the movie. Point 2, that dinky little speeder making its way down the barrel of that canon is explicitly their only hope at that point. There was no "getting off-world" or "setting off a distraction". Everyone else was stuck in a cave with no other exit and seconds away from being obliterated, and Finn flying down that barrel was the only chance they had after Poe cowardly called off the attack because he suddenly couldn't stand people dying for the cause anymore even though it was literally the only thing they could do. Exactly like people have been doing with Poe's own subplot in that movie, you're giving other characters more knowledge of the situation than they actually have in order to make him look stupid by comparison and force the scene to make sense according to your preferred view. And FYI, something moving at great speed is perfectly capable of causing destruction on something stationary regardless of size, especially targeting vulnerable points. That's the principle of a bullet, after all. Which is also why Rose crashing into him from the side should realistically be considered a murder-suicide attempt which miraculously fails. And as far as Kylo is concerned, Darth Vader was an unrelenting and shameless villain in the original trilogy, a true Imperial patriot and fanatic. A moving fortress of ruthlessness and evil. You didn't necessarily need to know exactly how he got there because the development was complete and obviously had been for a long time, making reversing it at all in the slightest an emotional victory in itself. Which isn't even raised as a possibility until the latter half of the third movie. Kylo, while pretending to be just as ruthless, is obviously uncertain and teetering and is actively being influenced from both directions as the story goes on. In order for his development and potential reversal to have an emotional payoff the audience needs to understand what he's thinking and reacting to so they actually mean something, otherwise he's just half-randomly flip-flopping between good and further evil, and his eventual return to the light seems just as unearned and implausible as both his original turn to the darkness and eventual doubling-down did. Neither of which were ever explained so as to psychologically make sense to a fellow human being. Everything you feel like you understand about him sounds like something you're personally attributing to his situation, not something made evident in any of the movies. Unlike with the original trilogy they've made the process of him gradually turning more evil a hugely important part of the story. They just didn't care to flesh it out, as Lucas did when Anakin's fall was made an important subplot in the prequels. But they expected people to be just as caught up in it simply because it's supposedly a fall and redemption story. Because they're clearly lazy writers who don't want to have to think about what they put in front of you. It's the same with Rey's piloting. It doesn't make sense for her to have that ability given her profession and situation, and no effort is made to explain it either before or after it suddenly becomes hugely relevant to the story, which has obviously rubbed other people the wrong way even if you just accept it. Luke's ability to program moisture farming machines, however that works, is never made crucial to the story, and if it was and we hadn't heard of or seen him living on a moisture farm then it would also have felt like an ass-pull for him to suddenly perform random plot-related moisture farming feats out of nowhere. And if you remember, Kylo wasn't "trying to reject his family legacy", he was trying to emulate his grandfather for reasons that are never explained beyond eventually "Palpatine said something to him in Vader's voice?" Similarly, "killing the past", i.e: destroying the world order and murdering billions because you have a problem with your parents limiting your potential and your mentor was a dick, isn't a coherent motivation. There are obvious links of causality missing for that to seem like anything but complete idiocy and madness, and the writers not acknowledging those gabs at all makes Kylo an insane psychopath. It doesn't imply that there's something to him we don't know but can theoretically extrapolate, for which his character writing should somehow still deserve credit.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 4, 2020 23:26:34 GMT
What's incoherent about it? Kylo wanted power, and would kill anyone in his way.
He knew what he was doing was wrong because he was raised to know what was right by Leia, Han, and Luke, and so he is confused by his upbringing and his ambition for power. That is why he was so emotionally conflicted. His fall to the dark was probably similar Anakin's in that he tasted the power of the dark in that first act of violent rebellion against Luke at the Academy, and then wanted more - supposition on my part but the explanation for his fall is unnecessary for him to be a compelling villain.
Ultimately, he chose the pursuit of power in TLJ. He's this guy:
*Shrug* I dunno why people are sympathetic.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 5, 2020 1:18:34 GMT
This chick is so ugly I couldn't finish watching
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 5, 2020 3:37:42 GMT
This is beyond unnecessary and is another character assassination. Now i await the revelation that Lando is Finn's father who lost him in a card game to Han who promptly sold him off to a First Order officer for some more liquor.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 5, 2020 8:27:17 GMT
What's incoherent about it? Kylo wanted power, and would kill anyone in his way. He knew what he was doing was wrong because he was raised to know what was right by Leia, Han, and Luke, and so he is confused by his upbringing and his ambition for power. That is why he was so emotionally conflicted. His fall to the dark was probably similar Anakin's in that he tasted the power of the dark in that first act of violent rebellion against Luke at the Academy, and then wanted more - supposition on my part but the explanation for his fall is unnecessary for him to be a compelling villain. Ultimately, he chose the pursuit of power in TLJ. He's this guy: *Shrug* I dunno why people are sympathetic. Except "wanting power" to the point of "being willing to kill anyone in your way" isn't something people just naturally develop into. It does require an explanation, either explicit or implicit, because murderous intent doesn't manifest out of nowhere in real life. If a gangster kills without remorse then the implicit explanation is that their environment shaped them into an immoral killer over time. If someone growing up in a 'normal' neighborhood murders people then the implicit explanation is that hidden factors like abusive parents or deep trauma early on in their lives messed them up, or they were born as psychopaths. Killers with healthy childhoods who grew up safe and sound without inborn mental deficiencies aren't featured in movies because that's not a thing, and everybody would know if it was. As you say, we have every reason to believe that Ben Solo grew up safe and loved in a perfectly healthy environment surrounded by good and sensible people. The trauma that supposedly triggers his turn to darkness - Luke appearing to want to kill him - occurs when he's essentially already an adult, only a few years before the movies take place. And he obviously isn't a clinical psychopath. For that shock to eventually convince him that murdering billions and conquering the galaxy is what he needs to do simply isn't plausible. It demands a more developed explanation to be believable. And nothing is ever given. Anakin's fall to darkness wasn't even about power, specifically. His fear of loss drove him to commit certain extreme and irreversible actions that he then had no choice but to double down on, and the guilt quickly drove him insane. All of which is evident in the movie. 'Power' was just the solution dangled in front of him and the only thing he had left to cling to by the end, having unintentionally destroyed everything else he valued in the world and about himself. A perfectly and recognizably human fall from grace. While the acting may have been choppy, the psychological patterns checked out. Which is what made it impactful. Kylo's fall and the hypothetical processes behind it are made vital to the story by each movie having a main character desperately trying to turn him. It's important to other characters we're supposed to care about, and is written deeply into the plot developments. As such, the fact that his struggle between right and wrong doesn't make logical sense and doesn't follow psychologically recognizable patterns absolutely makes him a less compelling character and villain, and drags other parts of the movies down with him. And what ultimately causes him to return to the light is "forgiveness", weirdly and pointlessly as it's presented, after which he relinquishes all his power in a heartbeat. Implying that like Anakin it was guilt and not lust for power that kept him going down the dark path. Except unlike Anakin that makes no sense for his actual history. He had nothing to feel ashamed of before he deliberately decided to join the evil team for reasons that are never given. Incoherent.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 5, 2020 9:15:40 GMT
With Finn, I suppose we just see his character differently. Yes, he moved to help Rey out and save her life but that was against a bunch of unarmed thugs at first. And at second with the FO...again attractive female who showed him some interest. Yes he tried to save her but that is far cry from having a cause. Point 2...his sacrifice there would've been meaningless, no way that dinky little speeder would've caused much damage to the battering ram cannon...assuming he made it in the first place. Poe saw it. Rose saw it. The only one who didn't see it is Finn. 1. No that is how you create a distraction letting you get off planet. Sure as he pointed out it felt good to make them suffer which is actually kind of a horrible message, but they didn't do it out of some anarchist desire to rebel they needed a way to get off the planet and get back to a ship..which it succeeded in doing that much. And I have nothing new to add to 2 that I already said. As far as Kylo is concerned. We've seen those movies before with the prequels...might it have been nice to see Kylo Ren's fall to the darkside in detail? Sure maybe. And maybe we will with comics and books and tv shows and stuff. But its not neccessary to understanding who the character is nor is it neccessary to understanding his arc in the Sequels...nice to know but not vital to the story Rian, JJ, and co were trying to tell. I mean, seriously, did we need to see Luke's entire childhood and where he was from in order to understand why he wanted to get off Tatoine? Did we need to see Rey actually messing around with her simulator or experimenting with all the machanical crap she finds in order to understand how she is a good pilot or mechanic? I don't. Kylo's arc started off with him on the dark side (much like Vader in the OT before we got the prequels, we didn't see Vader's motivations for turning evil until the prequels), and then ended with him being redeamed. We heard enough through dialogue to infer the reasons why he fell in the first place...but his story was an inverse to Rey's. A man who was trying to reject his family legacy finding out that was not a healthy thing to do. Apparently so. It sounds like you're basing your view of him on what you believe the writers want you to think, while I'm basing mine on his actual behavior and actions in the movies. He doesn't know or seem to care one bit whether or not the people attacking Rey are armed. The way the scene plays out he hears that there's a commotion in the... bazaar?... and instantly stands up and moves closer to help whoever is in trouble before even getting a good look at the situation. He's very obviously intending to interfere if he can, completely by instinct, even though he knows it could be dangerous. That's exceptional courage and solidarity. It's not until he gets close enough to see her and BB8 properly from the front that other priorities kick in. And he has no cause, has he? Putting aside his dedication to Rey's relative safety he immediately consents to being sent on an insanely risky and dangerous mission to save the Resistance as soon as his conversation with Rose reveals a way to turn the situation around. Again, bravery, solidarity and self-sacrifice. Rose calls him a coward, but she's clearly wrong from the audience's perspective. He does nothing cowardly or selfish or opportunistic in the movie. Point 2, that dinky little speeder making its way down the barrel of that canon is explicitly their only hope at that point. There was no "getting off-world" or "setting off a distraction". Everyone else was stuck in a cave with no other exit and seconds away from being obliterated, and Finn flying down that barrel was the only chance they had after Poe cowardly called off the attack because he suddenly couldn't stand people dying for the cause anymore even though it was literally the only thing they could do. Exactly like people have been doing with Poe's own subplot in that movie, you're giving other characters more knowledge of the situation than they actually have in order to make him look stupid by comparison and force the scene to make sense according to your preferred view. And FYI, something moving at great speed is perfectly capable of causing destruction on something stationary regardless of size, especially targeting vulnerable points. That's the principle of a bullet, after all. Which is also why Rose crashing into him from the side should realistically be considered a murder-suicide attempt which miraculously fails. And as far as Kylo is concerned, Darth Vader was an unrelenting and shameless villain in the original trilogy, a true Imperial patriot and fanatic. A moving fortress of ruthlessness and evil. You didn't necessarily need to know exactly how he got there because the development was complete and obviously had been for a long time, making reversing it at all in the slightest an emotional victory in itself. Which isn't even raised as a possibility until the latter half of the third movie. Kylo, while pretending to be just as ruthless, is obviously uncertain and teetering and is actively being influenced from both directions as the story goes on. In order for his development and potential reversal to have an emotional payoff the audience needs to understand what he's thinking and reacting to so they actually mean something, otherwise he's just half-randomly flip-flopping between good and further evil, and his eventual return to the light seems just as unearned and implausible as both his original turn to the darkness and eventual doubling-down did. Neither of which were ever explained so as to psychologically make sense to a fellow human being. Everything you feel like you understand about him sounds like something you're personally attributing to his situation, not something made evident in any of the movies. Unlike with the original trilogy they've made the process of him gradually turning more evil a hugely important part of the story. They just didn't care to flesh it out, as Lucas did when Anakin's fall was made an important subplot in the prequels. But they expected people to be just as caught up in it simply because it's supposedly a fall and redemption story. Because they're clearly lazy writers who don't want to have to think about what they put in front of you. It's the same with Rey's piloting. It doesn't make sense for her to have that ability given her profession and situation, and no effort is made to explain it either before or after it suddenly becomes hugely relevant to the story, which has obviously rubbed other people the wrong way even if you just accept it. Luke's ability to program moisture farming machines, however that works, is never made crucial to the story, and if it was and we hadn't heard of or seen him living on a moisture farm then it would also have felt like an ass-pull for him to suddenly perform random plot-related moisture farming feats out of nowhere. And if you remember, Kylo wasn't "trying to reject his family legacy", he was trying to emulate his grandfather for reasons that are never explained beyond eventually "Palpatine said something to him in Vader's voice?" Similarly, "killing the past", i.e: destroying the world order and murdering billions because you have a problem with your parents limiting your potential and your mentor was a dick, isn't a coherent motivation. There are obvious links of causality missing for that to seem like anything but complete idiocy and madness, and the writers not acknowledging those gabs at all makes Kylo an insane psychopath. It doesn't imply that there's something to him we don't know but can theoretically extrapolate, for which his character writing should somehow still deserve credit. OK so I will make sure to never serve under your command in any military operation ever... So in your post you claim that I am bringing my own perspective to these movies but also claim that the writers are lazy and not thinking about what they put in front of the audience. I personally do not know anyone who does not bring a part of themselves when they view or consume any kind of entertainment. I mean maybe you are right maybe this is nothing but one giant series of coincedences...that flow together pretty well and form a coherent narrative. So...yeah it could either be a massive bit of luck or they had some foresight, either way, it works. You have to remember that Kylo is A. a bit of a liar. He may claim that he wants to let the past die but he clearly reacts to the past in a very negative manner. "BLOW THAT PIECE OF JUNK OUT OF THE SKY". B. Kylo's legacy is one of lightness and goodness. That is what most of his family was. Anakin, Luke, Leia, Han, only Vader was the evil one. So he was going for the hipster dark uncle of the family to the exclusion of all the others. He hated the rest of the family, and wanted to wipe them out...something he demonstrated time and time again no matter what he told Rey. From there its not too much of a stretch to assume why he has come to the conclusion that everything needs to be burnt to the ground and start over, especially with the rest of the Last Jedi in consideration. From his perspective his father abandoned him, his uncle betrayed him, Snoke manipulated him and his connection to Rey to manipulate them both to his own ends and he also personally wants to break from his past because it is clearly what he believes will stop him from feeling pain. Sounds like pretty clear motivations to me. Remember Anakin during the prequels had a lot of these same ideas when it came to the corruption he saw in the Republic...and we never got indepth reasons as to *Why* Anakin thought those things just that it was suddenly introduced that was his perspective on the Republic. You might not see it, which is perfectly fine, but it is what I took from the movie as told by the movies from their dialogue and taking all of them as one cohesive narrative. Which then since his darkness flowed naturally one to the other as he tried to double down on it his redemption likewise makes perfect sense. Maybe a little rushed but he finally recognized the true cause of his pain, learned to embrace his proper legacy, that he did not have to kill his past, and learned to come home...it works. Its what he has been grappling with for the entire trilogy but he just finally recognized the lies that were keeping him from being whole again, thanks to Rey, Leia, and Spirit Han.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 5, 2020 10:07:57 GMT
Apparently so. It sounds like you're basing your view of him on what you believe the writers want you to think, while I'm basing mine on his actual behavior and actions in the movies. He doesn't know or seem to care one bit whether or not the people attacking Rey are armed. The way the scene plays out he hears that there's a commotion in the... bazaar?... and instantly stands up and moves closer to help whoever is in trouble before even getting a good look at the situation. He's very obviously intending to interfere if he can, completely by instinct, even though he knows it could be dangerous. That's exceptional courage and solidarity. It's not until he gets close enough to see her and BB8 properly from the front that other priorities kick in. And he has no cause, has he? Putting aside his dedication to Rey's relative safety he immediately consents to being sent on an insanely risky and dangerous mission to save the Resistance as soon as his conversation with Rose reveals a way to turn the situation around. Again, bravery, solidarity and self-sacrifice. Rose calls him a coward, but she's clearly wrong from the audience's perspective. He does nothing cowardly or selfish or opportunistic in the movie. Point 2, that dinky little speeder making its way down the barrel of that canon is explicitly their only hope at that point. There was no "getting off-world" or "setting off a distraction". Everyone else was stuck in a cave with no other exit and seconds away from being obliterated, and Finn flying down that barrel was the only chance they had after Poe cowardly called off the attack because he suddenly couldn't stand people dying for the cause anymore even though it was literally the only thing they could do. Exactly like people have been doing with Poe's own subplot in that movie, you're giving other characters more knowledge of the situation than they actually have in order to make him look stupid by comparison and force the scene to make sense according to your preferred view. And FYI, something moving at great speed is perfectly capable of causing destruction on something stationary regardless of size, especially targeting vulnerable points. That's the principle of a bullet, after all. Which is also why Rose crashing into him from the side should realistically be considered a murder-suicide attempt which miraculously fails. And as far as Kylo is concerned, Darth Vader was an unrelenting and shameless villain in the original trilogy, a true Imperial patriot and fanatic. A moving fortress of ruthlessness and evil. You didn't necessarily need to know exactly how he got there because the development was complete and obviously had been for a long time, making reversing it at all in the slightest an emotional victory in itself. Which isn't even raised as a possibility until the latter half of the third movie. Kylo, while pretending to be just as ruthless, is obviously uncertain and teetering and is actively being influenced from both directions as the story goes on. In order for his development and potential reversal to have an emotional payoff the audience needs to understand what he's thinking and reacting to so they actually mean something, otherwise he's just half-randomly flip-flopping between good and further evil, and his eventual return to the light seems just as unearned and implausible as both his original turn to the darkness and eventual doubling-down did. Neither of which were ever explained so as to psychologically make sense to a fellow human being. Everything you feel like you understand about him sounds like something you're personally attributing to his situation, not something made evident in any of the movies. Unlike with the original trilogy they've made the process of him gradually turning more evil a hugely important part of the story. They just didn't care to flesh it out, as Lucas did when Anakin's fall was made an important subplot in the prequels. But they expected people to be just as caught up in it simply because it's supposedly a fall and redemption story. Because they're clearly lazy writers who don't want to have to think about what they put in front of you. It's the same with Rey's piloting. It doesn't make sense for her to have that ability given her profession and situation, and no effort is made to explain it either before or after it suddenly becomes hugely relevant to the story, which has obviously rubbed other people the wrong way even if you just accept it. Luke's ability to program moisture farming machines, however that works, is never made crucial to the story, and if it was and we hadn't heard of or seen him living on a moisture farm then it would also have felt like an ass-pull for him to suddenly perform random plot-related moisture farming feats out of nowhere. And if you remember, Kylo wasn't "trying to reject his family legacy", he was trying to emulate his grandfather for reasons that are never explained beyond eventually "Palpatine said something to him in Vader's voice?" Similarly, "killing the past", i.e: destroying the world order and murdering billions because you have a problem with your parents limiting your potential and your mentor was a dick, isn't a coherent motivation. There are obvious links of causality missing for that to seem like anything but complete idiocy and madness, and the writers not acknowledging those gabs at all makes Kylo an insane psychopath. It doesn't imply that there's something to him we don't know but can theoretically extrapolate, for which his character writing should somehow still deserve credit. OK so I will make sure to never serve under your command in any military operation ever... So in your post you claim that I am bringing my own perspective to these movies but also claim that the writers are lazy and not thinking about what they put in front of the audience. I personally do not know anyone who does not bring a part of themselves when they view or consume any kind of entertainment. I mean maybe you are right maybe this is nothing but one giant series of coincedences...that flow together pretty well and form a coherent narrative. So...yeah it could either be a massive bit of luck or they had some foresight, either way, it works. You have to remember that Kylo is A. a bit of a liar. He may claim that he wants to let the past die but he clearly reacts to the past in a very negative manner. "BLOW THAT PIECE OF JUNK OUT OF THE SKY". B. Kylo's legacy is one of lightness and goodness. That is what most of his family was. Anakin, Luke, Leia, Han, only Vader was the evil one. So he was going for the hipster dark uncle of the family to the exclusion of all the others. He hated the rest of the family, and wanted to wipe them out...something he demonstrated time and time again no matter what he told Rey. From there its not too much of a stretch to assume why he has come to the conclusion that everything needs to be burnt to the ground and start over, especially with the rest of the Last Jedi in consideration. From his perspective his father abandoned him, his uncle betrayed him, Snoke manipulated him and his connection to Rey to manipulate them both to his own ends and he also personally wants to break from his past because it is clearly what he believes will stop him from feeling pain. Sounds like pretty clear motivations to me. Remember Anakin during the prequels had a lot of these same ideas when it came to the corruption he saw in the Republic...and we never got indepth reasons as to *Why* Anakin thought those things just that it was suddenly introduced that was his perspective on the Republic. You might not see it, which is perfectly fine, but it is what I took from the movie as told by the movies from their dialogue and taking all of them as one cohesive narrative. Which then since his darkness flowed naturally one to the other as he tried to double down on it his redemption likewise makes perfect sense. Maybe a little rushed but he finally recognized the true cause of his pain, learned to embrace his proper legacy, that he did not have to kill his past, and learned to come home...it works. Its what he has been grappling with for the entire trilogy but he just finally recognized the lies that were keeping him from being whole again, thanks to Rey, Leia, and Spirit Han. It's all your headcanon. You invent narration to fit in the gaps that the material doesn't provide. Thus it only makes sense for you.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 5, 2020 10:14:36 GMT
OK so I will make sure to never serve under your command in any military operation ever... So in your post you claim that I am bringing my own perspective to these movies but also claim that the writers are lazy and not thinking about what they put in front of the audience. I personally do not know anyone who does not bring a part of themselves when they view or consume any kind of entertainment. I mean maybe you are right maybe this is nothing but one giant series of coincedences...that flow together pretty well and form a coherent narrative. So...yeah it could either be a massive bit of luck or they had some foresight, either way, it works. You have to remember that Kylo is A. a bit of a liar. He may claim that he wants to let the past die but he clearly reacts to the past in a very negative manner. "BLOW THAT PIECE OF JUNK OUT OF THE SKY". B. Kylo's legacy is one of lightness and goodness. That is what most of his family was. Anakin, Luke, Leia, Han, only Vader was the evil one. So he was going for the hipster dark uncle of the family to the exclusion of all the others. He hated the rest of the family, and wanted to wipe them out...something he demonstrated time and time again no matter what he told Rey. From there its not too much of a stretch to assume why he has come to the conclusion that everything needs to be burnt to the ground and start over, especially with the rest of the Last Jedi in consideration. From his perspective his father abandoned him, his uncle betrayed him, Snoke manipulated him and his connection to Rey to manipulate them both to his own ends and he also personally wants to break from his past because it is clearly what he believes will stop him from feeling pain. Sounds like pretty clear motivations to me. Remember Anakin during the prequels had a lot of these same ideas when it came to the corruption he saw in the Republic...and we never got indepth reasons as to *Why* Anakin thought those things just that it was suddenly introduced that was his perspective on the Republic. You might not see it, which is perfectly fine, but it is what I took from the movie as told by the movies from their dialogue and taking all of them as one cohesive narrative. Which then since his darkness flowed naturally one to the other as he tried to double down on it his redemption likewise makes perfect sense. Maybe a little rushed but he finally recognized the true cause of his pain, learned to embrace his proper legacy, that he did not have to kill his past, and learned to come home...it works. Its what he has been grappling with for the entire trilogy but he just finally recognized the lies that were keeping him from being whole again, thanks to Rey, Leia, and Spirit Han. It's all your headcanon. You invent narration to fit in the gaps that the material doesn't provide. Thus it only makes sense for you. it is a curious stance but inaccurate. Kylo's family issues weren't even my idea.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 5, 2020 10:19:32 GMT
It's all your headcanon. You invent narration to fit in the gaps that the material doesn't provide. Thus it only makes sense for you. it is a curious stance but inaccurate. Kylo's family issues weren't even my idea. It's bollocks from the get go. No matter how much you try to invent to it. Some fiction is interesting bollocks. But the latest Star Wars fiction just is incoherent rambling without a proper script.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 5, 2020 10:50:06 GMT
OK so I will make sure to never serve under your command in any military operation ever... So in your post you claim that I am bringing my own perspective to these movies but also claim that the writers are lazy and not thinking about what they put in front of the audience. I personally do not know anyone who does not bring a part of themselves when they view or consume any kind of entertainment. I mean maybe you are right maybe this is nothing but one giant series of coincedences...that flow together pretty well and form a coherent narrative. So...yeah it could either be a massive bit of luck or they had some foresight, either way, it works. You have to remember that Kylo is A. a bit of a liar. He may claim that he wants to let the past die but he clearly reacts to the past in a very negative manner. "BLOW THAT PIECE OF JUNK OUT OF THE SKY". B. Kylo's legacy is one of lightness and goodness. That is what most of his family was. Anakin, Luke, Leia, Han, only Vader was the evil one. So he was going for the hipster dark uncle of the family to the exclusion of all the others. He hated the rest of the family, and wanted to wipe them out...something he demonstrated time and time again no matter what he told Rey. From there its not too much of a stretch to assume why he has come to the conclusion that everything needs to be burnt to the ground and start over, especially with the rest of the Last Jedi in consideration. From his perspective his father abandoned him, his uncle betrayed him, Snoke manipulated him and his connection to Rey to manipulate them both to his own ends and he also personally wants to break from his past because it is clearly what he believes will stop him from feeling pain. Sounds like pretty clear motivations to me. Remember Anakin during the prequels had a lot of these same ideas when it came to the corruption he saw in the Republic...and we never got indepth reasons as to *Why* Anakin thought those things just that it was suddenly introduced that was his perspective on the Republic. You might not see it, which is perfectly fine, but it is what I took from the movie as told by the movies from their dialogue and taking all of them as one cohesive narrative. Which then since his darkness flowed naturally one to the other as he tried to double down on it his redemption likewise makes perfect sense. Maybe a little rushed but he finally recognized the true cause of his pain, learned to embrace his proper legacy, that he did not have to kill his past, and learned to come home...it works. Its what he has been grappling with for the entire trilogy but he just finally recognized the lies that were keeping him from being whole again, thanks to Rey, Leia, and Spirit Han. That's fair. And if it comes down to it, remind me never to rely on you to be willing to sacrifice yourself or others even if it means dooming the galaxy to oppression by insane manchildren. You're basing your theories on indications that aren't actually in the movies. The evidence of lazy writing, however, is everywhere in them and is easily and consistently pointed out. Just like the movies obviously don't form a coherent narrative, made clear by the fact that half the fanbase - who went to the theaters for a good time just like you did - would vomit at you making that statement. Nobody is impugning on your ability to enjoy the movies a lot in spite of their flaws. Everybody loves something that's objectively crap, and these movies aren't quite objectively crap. But saying that they aren't crap at all just because you personally enjoyed them is a fallacy, especially when you keep coming with reasons that don't hold up to scrutiny. And no, it doesn't "work". If they had no idea or knowledge of Luke being on the way to save them then their actions are cowardly, traitorous and stupid. And that's what they were to at least half of the audience watching the movie in the theaters. For the movie's narrative to then immediately try to brand them as nobler and more enlightened for being willing to doom the Resistance is then a major emotional disconnect between the movie and that half of the audience. That's just bad storytelling. And that you weren't personally caught in the fallout doesn't make it less bad. I have a hard time understanding what you're saying otherwise here. I'm not seeing the "lie" you're implying between "I want to kill the past" and "shoot that bit of the past out of the sky!" Wanting the past dead and being angered by reminders of the past are concepts that are pretty consistent with each other. The only moment of true dishonesty he has that I remember is the "your parents are nobodies" thing, and he freely admits the truth later anyway without any particular prompting. Besides that he comes across as a very honest and forthright, if not very emotionally intelligent. Hating his parents for essentially sending him off to superhero boarding school and feeling betrayed by his mentor for scaring the shit out of him one night do not in any way, shape or form fluidly ltranslate into him trying to conquer the galaxy. That's ridiculous. And it's also not how the movies frame it. He has plenty of moments of showing regret and even tenderness when faced with the prospect of killing his parents. And in each case it's a direct response to Snoke distrusting him, and an attempt to satisfy his master, not his own impulse. He clearly demonstrates that he doesn't hate them. All his anger is solely focused on Luke, and his loving parents are treated exclusively as a challenge to his dedication to the dark side, not as enemies against whom he's bearing a grudge. And your ideas of him constantly being in pain and arbitrarily going around imagining that this or that are going to fix it and basing all his decisions on that aren't evident in either his behavior or his dialogue. We knew for a fact that Anakin's development was influenced in favor of pride, self-aggrandizing, cynicism and absolutes by Palpatine all throughout his adolescent years - because we had scenes that showed exactly that -, and that his overconfidence and arrogance and tendency towards might-makes-right thinking was rooted in his own exceptional strength, short temper and lack of patience, as well as his dire force visions provoking him to try to control the world around him to avoid them. Again, because we had scenes that showed exactly that. Would you mind rewatching the first and second movie in the trilogy? If you've enjoyed them as much as you say then I'm sure it won't be a chore, and it seriously reads like you've just forgotten a lot of what happens in them and have inserted things yourself in hindsight.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 5, 2020 14:06:50 GMT
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