Obadiah
N5
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 5, 2020 15:15:21 GMT
... Except "wanting power" to the point of "being willing to kill anyone in your way" isn't something people just naturally develop into. It does require an explanation, either explicit or implicit, because murderous intent doesn't manifest out of nowhere in real life. If a gangster kills without remorse then the implicit explanation is that their environment shaped them into an immoral killer over time. If someone growing up in a 'normal' neighborhood murders people then the implicit explanation is that hidden factors like abusive parents or deep trauma early on in their lives messed them up, or they were born as psychopaths. Killers with healthy childhoods who grew up safe and sound without inborn mental deficiencies aren't featured in movies because that's not a thing, and everybody would know if it was. … I would dispute this rather logical-sounding set of notions. Unfortunately, life experience will beat this idea out of you eventually. Some people are just bad despite everything. However, the movie gives us plenty of explanation for Kylo's fall. ... As you say, we have every reason to believe that Ben Solo grew up safe and loved in a perfectly healthy environment surrounded by good and sensible people. The trauma that supposedly triggers his turn to darkness - Luke appearing to want to kill him - occurs when he's essentially already an adult, only a few years before the movies take place. And he obviously isn't a clinical psychopath. For that shock to eventually convince him that murdering billions and conquering the galaxy is what he needs to do simply isn't plausible. It demands a more developed explanation to be believable. And nothing is ever given. ... The Academy is the first time that we know of that Kylo killed someone, but as we found out in TLJ, Kylo was being influenced by Snoke before that to the point where Luke found so much darkness in him at the confrontation. Is the explicit influence really necessary? Cuz it is probably the usual dark side crap - some combination of messages of: visions of power, people around him don't understand him, didn't trust him, were holding him back, etc... That was basically Palpatine's influence to Anakin. The events at the Academy probably made Kylo believe that he could not go back to his parents, similar to the way Anakin believed he could not go back to the Jedi after he helped kill Windu, and so, whether that deduction was true or not, Kylo joined the First Order and the Knights of Ren. From then Kylo obviously started killing more, to the point that we find him a murderous villain in TFA willing to kill billions (is "willing to kill billions" ever truly logical?). At some point, he received visions of power from Vader, and that's what he explicitly says he wants in TFA. He knows its "wrong" because it goes against his upbringing and that's why he is emotionally conflicted, and it is also why Kylo knows he is a monster and has embraced that idea in TLJ. This is all fairly obvious from the movies. ... Anakin's fall to darkness wasn't even about power, specifically. … Anakin's fall is a combination of things, but power is definitely in there as a major factor. This is very clear in his conversation with Padme and Kenobi at the climax to Revenge of the Sith.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 5, 2020 17:46:37 GMT
The problem is that Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else she hired are still around. LucasFilm's situation is comparable to James Dolan and the New York Knick's front office.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 5, 2020 17:49:07 GMT
The problem is that Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else she hired are still around. LucasFilm's situation is comparable to James Dolan and the New York Kick's front office. Maybe they'll finally fire her ass....
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Feb 5, 2020 17:50:33 GMT
Awful, just awful. Why even do this?
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 5, 2020 18:02:04 GMT
The problem is that Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else she hired are still around. LucasFilm's situation is comparable to James Dolan and the New York Kick's front office. Maybe they'll finally fire her ass.... Normally Iger would have done so after Solo bombed but there's probably a clause in Disney's LucasFilms acquisition contract that prevents Kennedy's ouster or she flatout has blackmail material on Disney's executive officers.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 5, 2020 18:04:33 GMT
Maybe they'll finally fire her ass.... Normally Iger would have done so after Solo bombed but there's probably a clause in Disney's LucasFilms acquisition contract that prevents Kennedy's ouster or she flatout has blackmail material on Disney's executive officers. So she's got them by the balls. Alright, time to dig Star Wars' grave then...
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 5, 2020 18:42:55 GMT
Awful, just awful. Why even do this?
It's a double-edged sword really, think about it. Di$ney wants to push their crappy characters on us regardless of the fact that Poe, Finn & Rose have very little appeal. Also, the idiotic 3rd-wave feminist "movement" has trouble distinguishing between legitimate changes/revolutions and simply giving the "patriarchy" its own medicine. It's laughable & stupid but they really think the same bitterness, exclusionary behavior & character assassination will work differently for them. it won't
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 5, 2020 18:46:18 GMT
I have a very hard time believing that any serious creative/director or producer (Abrams, Rian, Treverrow, Kennedy) would have Kylo's story arc end the way it did in RoS on their own. Kylo's redemption and romance with Rey smacks of studio executive meddling (bullet point list of things that had to happen in movie), probably because of TLJ backlash panic, to appease some portion of the fanbase.
These people are all professionals and do as their told, or just resign, so I don't hold the movie against them. The best I can say is this particular plot was executed in a way that was not overly terrible, and some people actually enjoyed. I just have to shake my head at it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 5, 2020 18:46:55 GMT
Awful, just awful. Why even do this?
It's a double-edged sword really, think about it. Di$ney wants to push their crappy characters on us regardless of the fact that Poe, Finn & Rose have very little appeal. Also, the idiotic 3rd-wave feminist "movement" has trouble distinguishing between legitimate changes/revolutions and simply giving the "patriarchy" its own medicine. It's laughable & stupid but they really think the same bitterness, exclusionary behavior & character assassination will work differently for them. it won't Wish Skynet would hurry up and get Judgement Day over with already... Before they do....
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Post by colfoley on Feb 5, 2020 19:14:14 GMT
OK so I will make sure to never serve under your command in any military operation ever... So in your post you claim that I am bringing my own perspective to these movies but also claim that the writers are lazy and not thinking about what they put in front of the audience. I personally do not know anyone who does not bring a part of themselves when they view or consume any kind of entertainment. I mean maybe you are right maybe this is nothing but one giant series of coincedences...that flow together pretty well and form a coherent narrative. So...yeah it could either be a massive bit of luck or they had some foresight, either way, it works. You have to remember that Kylo is A. a bit of a liar. He may claim that he wants to let the past die but he clearly reacts to the past in a very negative manner. "BLOW THAT PIECE OF JUNK OUT OF THE SKY". B. Kylo's legacy is one of lightness and goodness. That is what most of his family was. Anakin, Luke, Leia, Han, only Vader was the evil one. So he was going for the hipster dark uncle of the family to the exclusion of all the others. He hated the rest of the family, and wanted to wipe them out...something he demonstrated time and time again no matter what he told Rey. From there its not too much of a stretch to assume why he has come to the conclusion that everything needs to be burnt to the ground and start over, especially with the rest of the Last Jedi in consideration. From his perspective his father abandoned him, his uncle betrayed him, Snoke manipulated him and his connection to Rey to manipulate them both to his own ends and he also personally wants to break from his past because it is clearly what he believes will stop him from feeling pain. Sounds like pretty clear motivations to me. Remember Anakin during the prequels had a lot of these same ideas when it came to the corruption he saw in the Republic...and we never got indepth reasons as to *Why* Anakin thought those things just that it was suddenly introduced that was his perspective on the Republic. You might not see it, which is perfectly fine, but it is what I took from the movie as told by the movies from their dialogue and taking all of them as one cohesive narrative. Which then since his darkness flowed naturally one to the other as he tried to double down on it his redemption likewise makes perfect sense. Maybe a little rushed but he finally recognized the true cause of his pain, learned to embrace his proper legacy, that he did not have to kill his past, and learned to come home...it works. Its what he has been grappling with for the entire trilogy but he just finally recognized the lies that were keeping him from being whole again, thanks to Rey, Leia, and Spirit Han. That's fair. And if it comes down to it, remind me never to rely on you to be willing to sacrifice yourself or others even if it means dooming the galaxy to oppression by insane manchildren. You're basing your theories on indications that aren't actually in the movies. The evidence of lazy writing, however, is everywhere in them and is easily and consistently pointed out. Just like the movies obviously don't form a coherent narrative, made clear by the fact that half the fanbase - who went to the theaters for a good time just like you did - would vomit at you making that statement. Nobody is impugning on your ability to enjoy the movies a lot in spite of their flaws. Everybody loves something that's objectively crap, and these movies aren't quite objectively crap. But saying that they aren't crap at all just because you personally enjoyed them is a fallacy, especially when you keep coming with reasons that don't hold up to scrutiny. And no, it doesn't "work". If they had no idea or knowledge of Luke being on the way to save them then their actions are cowardly, traitorous and stupid. And that's what they were to at least half of the audience watching the movie in the theaters. For the movie's narrative to then immediately try to brand them as nobler and more enlightened for being willing to doom the Resistance is then a major emotional disconnect between the movie and that half of the audience. That's just bad storytelling. And that you weren't personally caught in the fallout doesn't make it less bad. I have a hard time understanding what you're saying otherwise here. I'm not seeing the "lie" you're implying between "I want to kill the past" and "shoot that bit of the past out of the sky!" Wanting the past dead and being angered by reminders of the past are concepts that are pretty consistent with each other. The only moment of true dishonesty he has that I remember is the "your parents are nobodies" thing, and he freely admits the truth later anyway without any particular prompting. Besides that he comes across as a very honest and forthright, if not very emotionally intelligent. Hating his parents for essentially sending him off to superhero boarding school and feeling betrayed by his mentor for scaring the shit out of him one night do not in any way, shape or form fluidly ltranslate into him trying to conquer the galaxy. That's ridiculous. And it's also not how the movies frame it. He has plenty of moments of showing regret and even tenderness when faced with the prospect of killing his parents. And in each case it's a direct response to Snoke distrusting him, and an attempt to satisfy his master, not his own impulse. He clearly demonstrates that he doesn't hate them. All his anger is solely focused on Luke, and his loving parents are treated exclusively as a challenge to his dedication to the dark side, not as enemies against whom he's bearing a grudge. And your ideas of him constantly being in pain and arbitrarily going around imagining that this or that are going to fix it and basing all his decisions on that aren't evident in either his behavior or his dialogue. We knew for a fact that Anakin's development was influenced in favor of pride, self-aggrandizing, cynicism and absolutes by Palpatine all throughout his adolescent years - because we had scenes that showed exactly that -, and that his overconfidence and arrogance and tendency towards might-makes-right thinking was rooted in his own exceptional strength, short temper and lack of patience, as well as his dire force visions provoking him to try to control the world around him to avoid them. Again, because we had scenes that showed exactly that. Would you mind rewatching the first and second movie in the trilogy? If you've enjoyed them as much as you say then I'm sure it won't be a chore, and it seriously reads like you've just forgotten a lot of what happens in them and have inserted things yourself in hindsight. I rewatched all three sequel trilogy movies two weeks ago. A lot of these revelations (though not all) happened during, since then. Heck I even rewatched TFA last week. Can't wait for TROSs homerelease so I can watch it and then at least most of the saga. OH I think at this point I've probably seen TFA 7 times, TLJ 5, and TROS 3. As to the larger conversation going on right now about the evvviillll of Disney...so trusting youtube is out but we should trust a random blog. Named 'Bleeding Fool' nonetheless...cool.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 5, 2020 19:18:53 GMT
I have a very hard time believing that any serious creative/director or producer (Abrams, Rian, Treverrow, Kennedy) would have Kylo's story arc end the way it did in RoS on their own. Kylo's redemption and romance with Rey smacks of studio executive meddling (bullet point list of things that had to happen in movie), probably because of TLJ backlash panic, to appease some portion of the fanbase. These people are all professionals and do as their told, or just resign, so I don't hold the movie against them. The best I can say is this particular plot was executed in a way that was not overly terrible, and some people actually enjoyed. I just have to shake my head at it. Kennedy is the head of LucasFilm and is in control not the directors she hired. Since she has yet to throw Bob Iger under the bus for any executive meddling with the Sequel Trilogy all the blame goes to her. Kennedy recently putting the Obi Wan show on hiatus does her no favors either.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 5, 2020 20:37:03 GMT
I would dispute this rather logical-sounding set of notions. Unfortunately, life experience will beat this idea out of you eventually. Some people are just bad despite everything. However, the movie gives us plenty of explanation for Kylo's fall. The Academy is the first time that we know of that Kylo killed someone, but as we found out in TLJ, Kylo was being influenced by Snoke before that to the point where Luke found so much darkness in him at the confrontation. Is the explicit influence really necessary? Cuz it is probably the usual dark side crap - some combination of messages of: visions of power, people around him don't understand him, didn't trust him, were holding him back, etc... That was basically Palpatine's influence to Anakin. The events at the Academy probably made Kylo believe that he could not go back to his parents, similar to the way Anakin believed he could not go back to the Jedi after he helped kill Windu, and so, whether that was deduction was true or not, Kylo joined the First Order and the Knights of Ren. From then Kylo obviously started killing more, to the point that we find him a murderous villain in TFA willing to kill billions (is "willing to kill billions" ever truly logical?). At some point, he received visions of power from Vader, and that's what he explicitly says he wants in TFA. He knows its "wrong" because it goes against his upbringing and that's why he is emotionally conflicted, and it is also why Kylo knows he is a monster and has embraced that idea in TLJ. This is all fairly obvious from the movies.Anakin's fall is a combination of things, but power is definitely in there as a major factor. This is very clear in his conversation with Padme and Kenobi at the climax to Revenge of the Sith. Aaw, you've met an asshole or two that you couldn't relate to and they convinced you that murderous and genocidal tendencies can just spawn out of nowhere? That's adorable. Closer inspection of the actual history of any such individual would beat that out of you eventually. But if your understanding of evil is that lazy and superficial then I absolutely see why you don't care about fictional villains and their motivations making sense. The movies do not, in fact, give us an explanation for Kylo's fall. None of the movies frame him as having "gradually addicted himself to murder", at all. He isn't even portrayed as enjoying it. You've made that up based vaguely on the few and disjointed clues we do get, to excuse the actual movies' writers not bothering to fill that gap themselves. There's a difference. "Snoke probably manipulated him with the usual dark side crap" doesn't cut it for the motivation of the secondary main character of a Star Wars trilogy, sorry, that's just stupid, lazy, boring and meaningless. If this is what they intended then that's almost worse than them just forgetting to give him a real character motivation. Oh yeah? Find me one example of Anakin desiring actual territory or administrative power for its own sake in either the Prequels or the Clone Wars. When he discusses "needing more power" it's exclusively a response to feeling helpless in the face of something horrific that he can't change, or a perceived lack of recognition of his worth and abilities from people he respects. I rewatched all three sequel trilogy movies two weeks ago. A lot of these revelations (though not all) happened during, since then. Heck I even rewatched TFA last week. Can't wait for TROSs homerelease so I can watch it and then at least most of the saga. OH I think at this point I've probably seen TFA 7 times, TLJ 5, and TROS 3. Then I'm really curious how I can remember specific scenes and dialogue and individual shots of Finn and Kylo that indicate the exact opposite of what you're saying while you can't point to any that support it. I've only watched TFA three times, one also last week. Maybe you've stopped watching the movies themselves and are just riding your own impressions of them? Narrative tunnel vision. Which is fine, you're free to enjoy movies however you want. But it kind of undermines any statement you try to make about what happens and what it's supposed to mean. I always got the impression that you enjoy theorycrafting, like I do, and I've enjoyed discussing it with you. But your arguments usually haven't been as thin as they are about these movies.
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Evil
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Post by Evil on Feb 5, 2020 21:57:59 GMT
any serious creative/director or producer (Abrams, Rian, Treverrow, Kennedy) Pick one. Those four couldn't direct shite down a sewer. Especially Abrams. Fuck that guy up the ass with an anchor from the Enterprise.That aside, the idea of the last film being a rushed bodge job of bullet point ideas created by a committee then haphazardly thrown together makes a lot of sense. That applies to most Hollywood films for the last few decades TBH. Its the precious few that are made by directors with little meddling by others that tend to be worth watching, and that's REALLY rare now. When was the last time hollywood made something risky like "Event Horizon" with a decent budget and support and didn't burden the director with a bunch of overbearing producers and suchlike? Exactly.
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Obadiah
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 5, 2020 22:33:16 GMT
... But if your understanding of evil is that lazy and superficial then I absolutely see why you don't care about fictional villains and their motivations making sense. The movies do not, in fact, give us an explanation for Kylo's fall. None of the movies frame him as having "gradually addicted himself to murder", at all. ... Your obstinence at accepting the character that has been presented in the movie is pointless. He is a murderous villain that is the child of some very heroic parents. Kylo makes perfect sense in TFA and TLJ - it's right there on the screen: influenced and maipulated by evil, committed act that seemed irredeemable, affirmatively accepted mentor that further lead him down a path to darkness, covets power. I'm sure Han and Leia were as stunned at how murderous he became, but that's what he became. Complaining that this is not explained more fully when 1/4 of TLJ is dedicated to this is silly.
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Post by skekSil on Feb 5, 2020 22:45:02 GMT
When was the last time hollywood made something risky like "Event Horizon" with a decent budget and support and didn't burden the director with a bunch of overbearing producers and suchlike? Exactly.Event Horizon was a box office flop.
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Post by Evil on Feb 5, 2020 22:57:24 GMT
When was the last time hollywood made something risky like "Event Horizon" with a decent budget and support and didn't burden the director with a bunch of overbearing producers and suchlike? Exactly.Event Horizon was a box office flop. Yes it was. It also sold so well in DVD format that the studio wanted to spend the money on making a directors cut version with the more extreme footage that was lost put back in. They weren't able to unfortunately, the master copies were lost. Box office takings aren't everything. Besides, a neglected gem is only neglected until its found. A polished turd is a turd forever.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 5, 2020 23:06:56 GMT
I would dispute this rather logical-sounding set of notions. Unfortunately, life experience will beat this idea out of you eventually. Some people are just bad despite everything. However, the movie gives us plenty of explanation for Kylo's fall. The Academy is the first time that we know of that Kylo killed someone, but as we found out in TLJ, Kylo was being influenced by Snoke before that to the point where Luke found so much darkness in him at the confrontation. Is the explicit influence really necessary? Cuz it is probably the usual dark side crap - some combination of messages of: visions of power, people around him don't understand him, didn't trust him, were holding him back, etc... That was basically Palpatine's influence to Anakin. The events at the Academy probably made Kylo believe that he could not go back to his parents, similar to the way Anakin believed he could not go back to the Jedi after he helped kill Windu, and so, whether that was deduction was true or not, Kylo joined the First Order and the Knights of Ren. From then Kylo obviously started killing more, to the point that we find him a murderous villain in TFA willing to kill billions (is "willing to kill billions" ever truly logical?). At some point, he received visions of power from Vader, and that's what he explicitly says he wants in TFA. He knows its "wrong" because it goes against his upbringing and that's why he is emotionally conflicted, and it is also why Kylo knows he is a monster and has embraced that idea in TLJ. This is all fairly obvious from the movies.Anakin's fall is a combination of things, but power is definitely in there as a major factor. This is very clear in his conversation with Padme and Kenobi at the climax to Revenge of the Sith. Aaw, you've met an asshole or two that you couldn't relate to and they convinced you that murderous and genocidal tendencies can just spawn out of nowhere? That's adorable. Closer inspection of the actual history of any such individual would beat that out of you eventually. But if your understanding of evil is that lazy and superficial then I absolutely see why you don't care about fictional villains and their motivations making sense. The movies do not, in fact, give us an explanation for Kylo's fall. None of the movies frame him as having "gradually addicted himself to murder", at all. He isn't even portrayed as enjoying it. You've made that up based vaguely on the few and disjointed clues we do get, to excuse the actual movies' writers not bothering to fill that gap themselves. There's a difference. "Snoke probably manipulated him with the usual dark side crap" doesn't cut it for the motivation of the secondary main character of a Star Wars trilogy, sorry, that's just stupid, lazy, boring and meaningless. If this is what they intended then that's almost worse than them just forgetting to give him a real character motivation. Oh yeah? Find me one example of Anakin desiring actual territory or administrative power for its own sake in either the Prequels or the Clone Wars. When he discusses "needing more power" it's exclusively a response to feeling helpless in the face of something horrific that he can't change, or a perceived lack of recognition of his worth and abilities from people he respects. I rewatched all three sequel trilogy movies two weeks ago. A lot of these revelations (though not all) happened during, since then. Heck I even rewatched TFA last week. Can't wait for TROSs homerelease so I can watch it and then at least most of the saga. OH I think at this point I've probably seen TFA 7 times, TLJ 5, and TROS 3. Then I'm really curious how I can remember specific scenes and dialogue and individual shots of Finn and Kylo that indicate the exact opposite of what you're saying while you can't point to any that support them. I've only watched TFA three times, one also last week. Maybe you've stopped watching the movies themselves and are just riding your own impressions of them? Narrative tunnel vision. Which is fine, you're free to enjoy movies however you want. But it kind of undermines any statement you try to make about what happens and what it's supposed to mean. I always got the impression that you enjoy theorycrafting, like I do, and I've enjoyed discussing it with you. But your arguments usually haven't been as thin as they are about these movies. With respect you seem to be doing that exact thing to my arguments. Afterall I know I have referenced scenes and brought up specific quotes...but I guess since they don't support your arguments, or you have a different viewpoint on them...they must not exisist. To be fair I should point out that at least in the case of Finn you have argued your point well. Calling him a coward might be a bit of a stretch given his initial reactions to Rey...(and I always thought that scene speaks volumes about First Order indoctrination/ training), BUT he still is scared of the First Order whose first reaction is to run from them/ his problems and the only times he acts brave...until the end of the Last Jedi...are on Rey's behalf or when he has a gun pointed at his head. Afterall when he and Poe are discussing the plan after its over and Poe asks Finn...I forget the exact line...but something like if this will really work Finn looks at Rose first almost like he is making sure she is going to rat him out, which was always my interpretation of that scene. Finn didn't want to do it, but he also saw little choice considering Rose would've told Poe had Finn chickened out.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 6, 2020 1:22:30 GMT
Event Horizon was a box office flop. Yes it was. It also sold so well in DVD format that the studio wanted to spend the money on making a directors cut version with the more extreme footage that was lost put back in. They weren't able to unfortunately, the master copies were lost. Box office takings aren't everything. Besides, a neglected gem is only neglected until its found. A polished turd is a turd forever. WTF does Event Horizon have to do with the shitty state of Star Wars today???
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Evil
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Post by Evil on Feb 6, 2020 1:47:15 GMT
Yes it was. It also sold so well in DVD format that the studio wanted to spend the money on making a directors cut version with the more extreme footage that was lost put back in. They weren't able to unfortunately, the master copies were lost. Box office takings aren't everything. Besides, a neglected gem is only neglected until its found. A polished turd is a turd forever. WTF does Event Horizon have to do with the shitty state of Star Wars today??? Did you bother read the post Skesis quoted originally? That's what. Edit: *Sigh* Fine, I'll save you the time of scrolling up. Obadiah mentioned that darth emo's ending reeked of committee tampering. I replied that most Hollywood films are like that now, using event horizon as a rare example of a non-committee Hollywood film for contrasts sake. skekSil then replied specifically to that part, omitting the context of the conversation. Short version: many companies, especially modern media, focus so much on short term profits and box ticking exercises that it kills the product they're trying to sell, actually hurting profit in the long run. To bring the conversation 360 degrees: Imagine how much money Star Wars USED to generate from its long term fan base that it now won't due to Disney's handling of things.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 6, 2020 2:38:28 GMT
Your obstinence at accepting the character that has been presented in the movie is pointless. He is a murderous villain that is the child of some very heroic parents. Kylo makes perfect sense in TFA and TLJ - it's right there on the screen: influenced and maipulated by evil, committed act that seemed irredeemable, affirmatively accepted mentor that further lead him down a path to darkness, covets power. I'm sure Han and Leia were as stunned at how murderous he became, but that's what he became. Complaining that this is not explained more fully when 1/4 of TLJ is dedicated to this is silly. First off, the idea that it could be considered "irredeemable" to knock your mentor out in self-defense when he creeps up on you with a lightsaber in the middle of the night is ridiculous. Even assuming that he really thought Luke was dead - which is really really implausible -, that's still perfectly justifiable and anyone he explained it to would see it as such. Maybe a child would have felt guilty and insecure enough to confuse themselves, but Ben was in his late teens and had no reason to believe that his parents or friends wouldn't take his side. That's objectively not sufficient explanation for him to abandon his family and everyone he knows and run away to people that he already knows for a fact are evil and misguided. Second, even assuming that he had some kind of natural craving for power - which nothing whatsoever in any of the movies indicates that he did at that point -, returning to his family and capitalizing on their immense fame and influence to gather power for himself would still have made better sense than running off to join an insane cult and try to rebuild the world order from scratch. The explanation for this disconnect is "Snoke manipulated him from afar", which isn't an explanation, it's an empty promise that there is one which the writer is just too lazy to clue us into in spite of the fact that HOW Kylo was lured to evil has major implications for what kind of person he is, which in turn is hugely relevant to how the audience should feel about him during that 1/4 of each movie that focuses on his personal development. If his character had been properly built and adjudicated, that 1/4 of each movie could have been dedicated to the fall and eventual rise of a tragic human figure whose strength and determination were grossly misused in ways that could happen to anyone if you don't watch out, which is obviously what they were envisioning when they decided to introduce Kylo Ren as a part of the trilogy. Instead, 1/4 of each movie is focused on the antics and insane troll logic of a caricature of some stupid manchild who inexplicably decided to be evil and then inexplicably decides not to be evil anymore. A story that means jack shit because it's not about a person, it's about paper-thin villain tropes glued together to fill an antagonist role. Which, if you hadn't noticed, is the sort of thing that has damaged Disney's credibility as Star Wars storytellers. I get it. You just simply don't need your characters to be anything more than caricatures. That's fair enough. But don't then pretend that your caricatures are characters just because you're personally satisfied with them. With respect you seem to be doing that exact thing to my arguments. Afterall I know I have referenced scenes and brought up specific quotes...but I guess since they don't support your arguments, or you have a different viewpoint on them...they must not exisist. To be fair I should point out that at least in the case of Finn you have argued your point well. Calling him a coward might be a bit of a stretch given his initial reactions to Rey...(and I always thought that scene speaks volumes about First Order indoctrination/ training), BUT he still is scared of the First Order whose first reaction is to run from them/ his problems and the only times he acts brave...until the end of the Last Jedi...are on Rey's behalf or when he has a gun pointed at his head. Afterall when he and Poe are discussing the plan after its over and Poe asks Finn...I forget the exact line...but something like if this will really work Finn looks at Rose first almost like he is making sure she is going to rat him out, which was always my interpretation of that scene. Finn didn't want to do it, but he also saw little choice considering Rose would've told Poe had Finn chickened out. You've referenced scenes explaining your impressions, and I've then pointed out the actual context both in those scenes and in the movies in general which indicate the exact opposite. I don't see that that's the same as extrapolating things that aren't in the movie and pretending it's what you're supposed to think. For example, you say that Finn gives Rose and Poe glances that you think indicate that he's afraid of her "ratting him out". But if I can draw your attention to their first meeting, a couple of days before at the most, Poe immediately recognizes that Finn isn't acting out of idealism like he pretends to, calls him out for it, and still accepts him because Finn came up with a bold plan that's going to help anyway. That understanding is the foundation for their friendship. For Poe to hear that Finn wants to go and warn Rey about the Resistance's situation rather than stick around when he thinks the situation is hopeless would be neither surprising nor offensive, and Finn knows that because he knows that Poe already understands that he's afraid of the First Order and hasn't judged him for it yet. There's no way that Finn commits to this near-suicidal mission just to keep Poe from finding out something he already knows. That couldn't possibly mean more to him than his fixation on keeping Rey safe, which he sets aside to do this mission. Meaning that he at least partially does it because he's invested in the Resistance surviving at this point and actually wants to do his part. And like in the first movie, Finn's fear of the First Order isn't even presented as irrational or cowardly. He has actual unique information about their power and methods that informs him believing that the situation is literally hopeless until circumstances convince him otherwise, at which point he's perfectly willing to risk his life to defy them for the sake of others. That's called heroism.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 6, 2020 2:54:33 GMT
Yes it was. It also sold so well in DVD format that the studio wanted to spend the money on making a directors cut version with the more extreme footage that was lost put back in. They weren't able to unfortunately, the master copies were lost. Box office takings aren't everything. Besides, a neglected gem is only neglected until its found. A polished turd is a turd forever. WTF does Event Horizon have to do with the shitty state of Star Wars today??? I dunno, after The Last Dumpster Fire, I was thinking things along the lines of "Libera te tuteme ex inferis" when asked how it was. I wasn't QUITE ready to gouge my eyes out, though...
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Post by colfoley on Feb 6, 2020 4:07:28 GMT
Your obstinence at accepting the character that has been presented in the movie is pointless. He is a murderous villain that is the child of some very heroic parents. Kylo makes perfect sense in TFA and TLJ - it's right there on the screen: influenced and maipulated by evil, committed act that seemed irredeemable, affirmatively accepted mentor that further lead him down a path to darkness, covets power. I'm sure Han and Leia were as stunned at how murderous he became, but that's what he became. Complaining that this is not explained more fully when 1/4 of TLJ is dedicated to this is silly. First off, the idea that it could be considered "irredeemable" to knock your mentor out in self-defense when he creeps up on you with a lightsaber in the middle of the night is ridiculous. Even assuming that he really thought Luke was dead - which is really really implausible -, that's still perfectly justifiable and anyone he explained it to would see it as such. Maybe a child would have felt guilty and insecure enough to confuse themselves, but Ben was in his late teens and had no reason to believe that his parents or friends wouldn't take his side. That's objectively not sufficient explanation for him to abandon his family and everyone he knows and run away to people that he already knows for a fact are evil and misguided. Second, even assuming that he had some kind of natural craving for power - which nothing whatsoever in any of the movies indicates that he did at that point -, returning to his family and capitalizing on their immense fame and influence to gather power for himself would still have made better sense than running off to join an insane cult and try to rebuild the world order from scratch. The explanation for this disconnect is "Snoke manipulated him from afar", which isn't an explanation, it's an empty promise that there is one which the writer is just too lazy to clue us into in spite of the fact that HOW Kylo was lured to evil has major implications for what kind of person he is, which in turn is hugely relevant to how the audience should feel about him during that 1/4 of each movie that focuses on his personal development. If his character had been properly built and adjudicated, that 1/4 of each movie could have been dedicated to the fall and eventual rise of a tragic human figure whose strength and determination were grossly misused in ways that could happen to anyone if you don't watch out, which is obviously what they were envisioning when they decided to introduce Kylo Ren as a part of the trilogy. Instead, 1/4 of each movie is focused on the antics and insane troll logic of a caricature of some stupid manchild who inexplicably decided to be evil and then inexplicably decides not to be evil anymore. A story that means jack shit because it's not about a person, it's about paper-thin villain tropes glued together to fill an antagonist role. Which, if you hadn't noticed, is the sort of thing that has damaged Disney's credibility as Star Wars storytellers. I get it. You just simply don't need your characters to be anything more than caricatures. That's fair enough. But don't then pretend that your caricatures are characters just because you're personally satisfied with them. With respect you seem to be doing that exact thing to my arguments. Afterall I know I have referenced scenes and brought up specific quotes...but I guess since they don't support your arguments, or you have a different viewpoint on them...they must not exisist. To be fair I should point out that at least in the case of Finn you have argued your point well. Calling him a coward might be a bit of a stretch given his initial reactions to Rey...(and I always thought that scene speaks volumes about First Order indoctrination/ training), BUT he still is scared of the First Order whose first reaction is to run from them/ his problems and the only times he acts brave...until the end of the Last Jedi...are on Rey's behalf or when he has a gun pointed at his head. Afterall when he and Poe are discussing the plan after its over and Poe asks Finn...I forget the exact line...but something like if this will really work Finn looks at Rose first almost like he is making sure she is going to rat him out, which was always my interpretation of that scene. Finn didn't want to do it, but he also saw little choice considering Rose would've told Poe had Finn chickened out. You've referenced scenes explaining your impressions, and I've then pointed out the actual context both in those scenes and in the movies in general which indicate the exact opposite. I don't see that that's the same as extrapolating things that aren't in the movie and pretending it's what you're supposed to think. For example, you say that Finn gives Rose and Poe glances that you think indicate that he's afraid of her "ratting him out". But if I can draw your attention to their first meeting, a couple of days before at the most, Poe immediately recognizes that Finn isn't acting out of idealism like he pretends to, calls him out for it, and still accepts him because Finn came up with a bold plan that's going to help anyway. That understanding is the foundation for their friendship. For Poe to hear that Finn wants to go and warn Rey about the Resistance's situation rather than stick around when he thinks the situation is hopeless would be neither surprising nor offensive, and Finn knows that because he knows that Poe already understands that he's afraid of the First Order and hasn't judged him for it yet. There's no way that Finn commits to this near-suicidal mission just to keep Poe from finding out something he already knows. That couldn't possibly mean more to him than his fixation on keeping Rey safe, which he sets aside to do this mission. Meaning that he at least partially does it because he's invested in the Resistance surviving at this point and actually wants to do his part. And like in the first movie, Finn's fear of the First Order isn't even presented as irrational or cowardly. He has actual unique information about their power and methods that informs him believing that the situation is literally hopeless until circumstances convince him otherwise, at which point he's perfectly willing to risk his life to defy them for the sake of others. That's called heroism. Since you actually argued the rest of your case quite well...not that I agree mind you but it is an interesting point of view...for future reference to make more friends and have more productive conversations you might want to tone down the arrogance.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 6, 2020 4:19:29 GMT
Your obstinence at accepting the character that has been presented in the movie is pointless. He is a murderous villain that is the child of some very heroic parents. Kylo makes perfect sense in TFA and TLJ - it's right there on the screen: influenced and maipulated by evil, committed act that seemed irredeemable, affirmatively accepted mentor that further lead him down a path to darkness, covets power. I'm sure Han and Leia were as stunned at how murderous he became, but that's what he became. Complaining that this is not explained more fully when 1/4 of TLJ is dedicated to this is silly. First off, the idea that it could be considered "irredeemable" to knock your mentor out in self-defense when he creeps up on you with a lightsaber in the middle of the night is ridiculous. Even assuming that he really thought Luke was dead - which is really really implausible -, that's still perfectly justifiable and anyone he explained it to would see it as such. Maybe a child would have felt guilty and insecure enough to confuse themselves, but Ben was in his late teens and had no reason to believe that his parents or friends wouldn't take his side. That's objectively not sufficient explanation for him to abandon his family and everyone he knows and run away to people that he already knows for a fact are evil and misguided. … I don't know how you came to that interpretation of the scenes, but that wasn't mine on any viewing of the movie. At the Academy Kylo thought Luke was dead, and decided to join First Order. Maybe because he felt forced from events, maybe by that time he was already craving the power we see him asking for in TFA (Luke's sense of intense darkness, etc.), but probably some combination of both, along with the usual shift in worldview that happens when one commits traumatic act. But, yeah, I would think Kylo being an active part of an event where everyone at the Academy is killed is irredeemable, and would push him to join the First Order. The important thing is at some point Kylo found out Luke was alive and decided he was better off where he was than going back - that should tell you all you need to know about his character. Oh I need to explain that some more, and you need specifics? Nah... kinda obvious, and unnecessary. Kylo's character is fine to me - I'll leave you to further expound on your confusion, or my misinterpretations.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 6, 2020 4:49:26 GMT
Since you actually argued the rest of your case quite well...not that I agree mind you but it is an interesting point of view...for future reference to make more friends and have more productive conversations you might want to tone down the arrogance. Ugh, I know. I always write these diatribes with a bad taste in my mouth. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I really do think that it's great that someone enjoys the movies a lot, and I've always been of the opinion that headcanon is perfectly acceptable for enhancing any kind of entertainment. And for the record, I mostly like the narratives and conclusions you're coming up with. I just absolutely do not see them in the movies, because of things in the movies themselves that seem to logically contradict them. If I seem aggressive and judgmental it's because I'm really annoyed with the writers for fooling around and undercutting the legitimate dramatic potential of their own work, not at you just for wanting to make the most of it. I don't know how you came to that interpretation of the scenes, but that wasn't mine on any viewing of the movie. At the Academy Kylo thought Luke was dead, and decided to join First Order. Maybe because he felt forced from events, maybe by that time he was already craving the power we see him asking for in TFA (Luke's sense of intense darkness, etc.), but probably some combination of both, along with the usual shift in worldview that happens when one commits traumatic act. But, yeah, I would think Kylo being an active part of an event where everyone at the Academy is killed is irredeemable, and would push him to join the First Order. The important thing is at some point Kylo found out Luke was alive and decided he was better off where he was than going back - that should tell you all you need to know about his character. Oh I need to explain that some more, and you need specifics? Nah... kinda obvious, and unnecessary. Kylo's character is fine to me - I'll leave you to further expound on your confusion, or my misinterpretations. Then you simply weren't watching the movie. Good luck convincing any teenager Kylo's age in the world that the young man lying sleeping is in any way the irredeemable aggressor in this scene.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 6, 2020 5:10:33 GMT
Since you actually argued the rest of your case quite well...not that I agree mind you but it is an interesting point of view...for future reference to make more friends and have more productive conversations you might want to tone down the arrogance. Ugh, I know. I always write these diatribes with a bad taste in my mouth. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I really do think that it's great that someone enjoys the movies a lot, and I've always been of the opinion that headcanon is perfectly acceptable for enhancing any kind of entertainment. And for the record, I mostly like the narratives and conclusions you're coming up with. I just absolutely do not see them in the movies, because of things in the movies themselves that seem to logically contradict them. If I seem aggressive and judgmental it's because I'm really annoyed with the writers for fooling around and undercutting the legitimate dramatic potential of their own work, not at you just for wanting to make the most of it. I don't know how you came to that interpretation of the scenes, but that wasn't mine on any viewing of the movie. At the Academy Kylo thought Luke was dead, and decided to join First Order. Maybe because he felt forced from events, maybe by that time he was already craving the power we see him asking for in TFA (Luke's sense of intense darkness, etc.), but probably some combination of both, along with the usual shift in worldview that happens when one commits traumatic act. But, yeah, I would think Kylo being an active part of an event where everyone at the Academy is killed is irredeemable, and would push him to join the First Order. The important thing is at some point Kylo found out Luke was alive and decided he was better off where he was than going back - that should tell you all you need to know about his character. Oh I need to explain that some more, and you need specifics? Nah... kinda obvious, and unnecessary. Kylo's character is fine to me - I'll leave you to further expound on your confusion, or my misinterpretations. Then you simply weren't watching the movie. Good luck convincing any teenager Kylo's age in the world that the young man lying sleeping is in any way the irredeemable aggressor in this scene. I was prepared for a lot of my responses to my post but this was the last thing I expected. Quite eye opening actually when it comes to where you are coming from and how you approach these movies...and your conversations with me. Probably something to keep in mind if we have further conversations on this or any other issue...because I don't think we agree on most of our entertainment perspectives.
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