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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2020 5:14:48 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 6:12:34 GMT
I don't see how it works. She's a bit of a Force-user savant, and is barely trained - most Jedi train from childhood. How is she going to pass on to other Jedi what knowledge she barely knows, or experience she barely has? She's got the books and Jedi Force ghosts to help I guess... You-know-who is probably going to be giving Rey the evil eye from Force heaven if her students start calling her "Master". its a fair point... I guess in that way she's not that much better off then Luke was.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 7, 2020 6:23:39 GMT
I don't see how it works. She's a bit of a Force-user savant, and is barely trained - most Jedi train from childhood. How is she going to pass on to other Jedi what knowledge she barely knows, or experience she barely has? She's got the books and Jedi Force ghosts to help I guess... You-know-who is probably going to be giving Rey the evil eye from Force heaven if her students start calling her "Master". It's also written by someone who hasn't seen either the original trilogy or the prequels in a while. Luke explicitly said that he had every intention of dropping Ben Kenobi off at Mos Eisley and then going right back to moisture farming, because he wouldn't leave his parents behind without their blessing. It wasn't until they were killed and he realized that there was no hiding from the Empire's atrocities that he committed to becoming a Jedi. Fighting with the rebellion most certainly wasn't some inner rebellion against their wishes for him. Similarly, "the danger of dogmas and absolutes" absolutely isn't a theme in the prequels. On the contrary, the Jedi fell because their faith and vigilance and adherence to the balance of the Force were eroded by bureaucracy and compromise, which paralyzed and blinded them to more focused enemies and left their struggling members vulnerable to corruption. And urgh. Rey has no relationship whatsoever with the history or philosophy of the Jedi, and she has the one book which just turned out to be Luke Skywalker's travel journal. If anything, she's the worst positioned to carry on the tradition in the entire series. The only thing pointed out that she really might have in her favor is the Palpatine temperament, compared to the Skywalkers'. And that's a pretty shaky idea. And I don't know about those Force Ghosts. If they couldn't be bothered to interfere while Leia's son was driving himself mad pursuing his idealized image of Darth Vader, and couldn't be bothered to poke Luke out of his depression while his real life's work crumbled throughout the galaxy, then I'm going to be pretty annoyed if they turn up en masse just to cheerlead Rey's newly opened daycare for gifted children. Which is just going to be her going around passive-aggressively lecturing her students for not being open or accepting enough of themselves or each other to naturally manifest expertise like she does, because the new and improved Force is all about listening to your heart and being yourself and letting go of all that restraint bullshit. While resenting them for forcing her to stick around and take care of them instead of flying off to do whatever she needs just because it's her "responsibility", until she gets pissy and palms them off to an eager and understanding Finn because she shouldn't be shackled by some hypothetical duty the next generation. And then we're all going to be required to clap at her courage and independence for not compromising herself for tradition's sake. One of the depressing things about The Rise of Skywalker is that words really cannot express how uninterested I am in how "Rey Skywalker" thinks she's going to rebuild anything. So far as I can see the Jedi are just... finished. And Rey's pupils are going to be the precursors to the modern Sith who are going to rule the galaxy with an iron fist of unhinged and uninformed enforced self-expression and ruthless suppression of anything they disagree with. Until an off-branch develops the discipline to master themselves for a higher purpose and strike them down, restoring freedom and justice to the galaxy. And then we can start over.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 7, 2020 6:55:46 GMT
Why did Rey want to become a Jedi? That was one of the many questions that sequel trilogy was vague on? What was her motive to do so when the first Jedi she met was a total jerk towards her?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 7:39:02 GMT
I don't see how it works. She's a bit of a Force-user savant, and is barely trained - most Jedi train from childhood. How is she going to pass on to other Jedi what knowledge she barely knows, or experience she barely has? She's got the books and Jedi Force ghosts to help I guess... You-know-who is probably going to be giving Rey the evil eye from Force heaven if her students start calling her "Master". It's also written by someone who hasn't seen either the original trilogy or the prequels in a while. Luke explicitly said that he had every intention of dropping Ben Kenobi off at Mos Eisley and then going right back to moisture farming, because he wouldn't leave his parents behind without their blessing. It wasn't until they were killed and he realized that there was no hiding from the Empire's atrocities that he committed to becoming a Jedi. Fighting with the rebellion most certainly wasn't some inner rebellion against their wishes for him. Similarly, "the danger of dogmas and absolutes" absolutely isn't a theme in the prequels. On the contrary, the Jedi fell because their faith and vigilance and adherence to the balance of the Force were eroded by bureaucracy and compromise, which paralyzed and blinded them to more focused enemies and left their struggling members vulnerable to corruption. And urgh. Rey has no relationship whatsoever with the history or philosophy of the Jedi, and she has the one book which just turned out to be Luke Skywalker's travel journal. If anything, she's the worst positioned to carry on the tradition in the entire series. The only thing pointed out that she really might have in her favor is the Palpatine temperament, compared to the Skywalkers'. And that's a pretty shaky idea. And I don't know about those Force Ghosts. If they couldn't be bothered to interfere while Leia's son was driving himself mad pursuing his idealized image of Darth Vader, and couldn't be bothered to poke Luke out of his depression while his real life's work crumbled throughout the galaxy, then I'm going to be pretty annoyed if they turn up en masse just to cheerlead Rey's newly opened daycare for gifted children. Which is just going to be her going around passive-aggressively lecturing her students for not being open or accepting enough of themselves or each other to naturally manifest expertise like she does, because the new and improved Force is all about listening to your heart and being yourself and letting go of all that restraint bullshit. While resenting them for forcing her to stick around and take care of them instead of flying off to do whatever she needs just because it's her "responsibility", until she gets pissy and palms them off to an eager and understanding Finn because she shouldn't be shackled by some hypothetical duty the next generation. And then we're all going to be required to clap at her courage and independence for not compromising herself for tradition's sake. One the depressing things about The Rise of Skywalker is that text really cannot express how uninterested I am in how "Rey Skywalker" thinks she's going to rebuild anything. So far as I can see the Jedi are just... finished. And Rey's pupils are going to be the precursors to the modern Sith who are going to rule the galaxy with an iron fist of unhinged and uninformed enforced self-expression and ruthless suppression of anything they disagree with. Until an off-branch develops the discipline to master themselves for a higher purpose and strike them down, restoring freedom and justice to the galaxy. And then we can start over. I am sure this will shock the heck out of you, but watching the entire Saga in the up to TROS...I pretty much agree with about ninety percent of the articles conclusions. Though admittedly I did miss the implications of the 'Luke rebelling' thing and his initial hesitance to go off with Obi-Wan. I suppose the rest of it has to do with our intepretations of your other main point in your little spiel. I mean sure you are right, the Jedi did become too beurocratic and too concerned about what the Republic as a whole was doing..esentially becoming FBI, and then soldiers. But that is just a symptom of the larger flaws of the Jedi Order circa the Clone Wars. And those larger flaws are...their dogma and over adherence to their own point of view on what the Force is. What balance in the Force is. And what 'good' and 'evil' of the Force is. They became so monolithic, so concerned about their own power that they literally pushed away anyone or anything that did not match into their narrow views on the Force. Namely in their case that ALL emotion is evil, corrupting, and will lead anyone who experiences them to become some kind of horrific mass murdering monster. Anything from traditionally positive emotions like love and friendship and compassion to negative emotions like hate and anger and fear... to the Jedi of the Clone Wars feeling all of that leads straight to the Sith. And they don't encourage their padawans to actually learn self control or emotional wholeness, no, they encourage them to try ignoring all of it because they don't lift one finger to actually help Anakin through with his problems. Now where does this leave Rey? I mean you might be right her Jedi Order could 'easily' become the next evil, corrupt, all knowing, dogmatic Sith or Clone Wars era Jedi. But it would be a really weird look considering she saw Luke essentially do that very thing to Ben however briefly...and it backfired spectacularily. And even more to the point given her own issues and her own lessons given how she has had NUMEROUS opprotunities to give into her negative impulses (anger, rage, and her abbandonment issues) (to the point where the only reason she didn't fall to the dark side basically was sheer dumb luck...given that Starkiller base opened a chasm which may have spared Kylo Ren from her righteous wrath...and other characters sacrificing themselves...like when Leia did so) and yet ultimatley she chose good. Ultimatley she chose to reject her lineage and reject becoming ruler over everything...for might I also remind you relatively benign reasons at the time (saving the Resistance) in favor of the good guy Jedi path. She's already faced this test and faced the test of her own demons and passed with more or less flying colors. Sure, she could stumble in the actual doing of making her own Jedi Order...just like Luke did...but that would be pretty repetitive so I hope, if they do continue this story, they give her other issues. So yeah, believe in yourself and accept yourself might sound super hippy...but I find it a far better message then classic Clone Wars Jedi 'emotion is evil'. And its also kind of in line with some of the lessons Yoda was trying to pass onto Luke from Empire...that he needed to believe in himself and the Force in order to lift that X-Wing. Why did Rey want to become a Jedi? That was one of the many questions that sequel trilogy was vague on? What was her motive to do so when the first Jedi she met was a total jerk towards her? She didn't really want to become a Jedi. Remember all she wanted was for someone to teach her and give her understanding of her own developing powers...because they scared the crap out of her. What they meant, what they were, and how to control them. Her journey was one more or less of self discovery, self acceptance, and forging her own past seperate from her Sith lineage...which at the end of her jourey she just sort of naturally fell into being a Jedi and she chose it for herself. Once she found an identity she was happy with it let her grow into her role as the Last of the Jedi Religion.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2020 9:07:46 GMT
Why did Rey want to become a Jedi? That was one of the many questions that sequel trilogy was vague on? What was her motive to do so when the first Jedi she met was a total jerk towards her? Well, technically the first Jedi she met was like a mother to her since Leia was a Jedi (stopped her training when she was a Palawan but still).
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 7, 2020 9:39:58 GMT
I am sure this will shock the heck out of you, but watching the entire Saga in the up to TROS...I pretty much agree with about ninety percent of the articles conclusions. Though admittedly I did miss the implications of the 'Luke rebelling' thing and his initial hesitance to go off with Obi-Wan. I suppose the rest of it has to do with our intepretations of your other main point in your little spiel. I mean sure you are right, the Jedi did become too beurocratic and too concerned about what the Republic as a whole was doing..esentially becoming FBI, and then soldiers. But that is just a symptom of the larger flaws of the Jedi Order circa the Clone Wars. And those larger flaws are...their dogma and over adherence to their own point of view on what the Force is. What balance in the Force is. And what 'good' and 'evil' of the Force is. They became so monolithic, so concerned about their own power that they literally pushed away anyone or anything that did not match into their narrow views on the Force. Namely in their case that ALL emotion is evil, corrupting, and will lead anyone who experiences them to become some kind of horrific mass murdering monster. Anything from traditionally positive emotions like love and friendship and compassion to negative emotions like hate and anger and fear... to the Jedi of the Clone Wars feeling all of that leads straight to the Sith. And they don't encourage their padawans to actually learn self control or emotional wholeness, no, they encourage them to try ignoring all of it because they don't lift one finger to actually help Anakin through with his problems. Now where does this leave Rey? I mean you might be right her Jedi Order could 'easily' become the next evil, corrupt, all knowing, dogmatic Sith or Clone Wars era Jedi. But it would be a really weird look considering she saw Luke essentially do that very thing to Ben however briefly...and it backfired spectacularily. And even more to the point given her own issues and her own lessons given how she has had NUMEROUS opprotunities to give into her negative impulses (anger, rage, and her abbandonment issues) (to the point where the only reason she didn't fall to the dark side basically was sheer dumb luck...given that Starkiller base opened a chasm which may have spared Kylo Ren from her righteous wrath...and other characters sacrificing themselves...like when Leia did so) and yet ultimatley she chose good. Ultimatley she chose to reject her lineage and reject becoming ruler over everything...for might I also remind you relatively benign reasons at the time (saving the Resistance) in favor of the good guy Jedi path. She's already faced this test and faced the test of her own demons and passed with more or less flying colors. Sure, she could stumble in the actual doing of making her own Jedi Order...just like Luke did...but that would be pretty repetitive so I hope, if they do continue this story, they give her other issues. So yeah, believe in yourself and accept yourself might sound super hippy...but I find it a far better message then classic Clone Wars Jedi 'emotion is evil'. And its also kind of in line with some of the lessons Yoda was trying to pass onto Luke from Empire...that he needed to believe in himself and the Force in order to lift that X-Wing. She didn't really want to become a Jedi. Remember all she wanted was for someone to teach her and give her understanding of her own developing powers...because they scared the crap out of her. What they meant, what they were, and how to control them. Her journey was one more or less of self discovery, self acceptance, and forging her own past seperate from her Sith lineage...which at the end of her jourey she just sort of naturally fell into being a Jedi and she chose it for herself. Once she found an identity she was happy with it let her grow into her role as the Last of the Jedi Religion. Give me one line of dialogue in any of the movies, books or cartoons that specifically amounts to the Jedi thinking that "emotion is evil". Jedi show emotion all the time, by themselves and between each other. They don't act like machines. The Jedi Masters of the Council openly share their fears and concerns with each other, specifically to avoid bottling things up or obsessing. Jedi support and encourage each other all the time, and try to nourish compassion and mercy wherever they go. Each Jedi and Padawan relationship is as parental as it is professional. They obviously don't think emotions are evil. What they think leads to evil is extreme emotions that you don't have a handle on. Which is why they counsel you to get a handle on them as much as possible, and to avoid situations where you don't, so you can think clearly and act sensibly and compassionately to whatever extent is possible. At no point are Jedi systematically punished or ostracized just for failing to perfectly contain all emotion. They're all clearly sentient beings, so they all clearly have emotions, so they all inevitably understand that it's not something you can just turn off. So obviously they don't expect that of each other. Go to almost any temple or monastery in the world and ask the teachers or priests there if they believe that it's wrong to have emotions. Prepare yourself for a moment's confusion, a blank and mildly insulted stare, and then a calm and patient lecture about the difference between temperance and emotionlessness. And Anakin had all the support in the world. He had several understanding and rational and wise masters who wanted the best for him and who would have understood his situation better than he thought they would, and if he had confided in any of them they would kindly but firmly have advised and encouraged him to take whatever steps necessary to come clean and organize his thoughts and life and understand himself and everything else he would have needed to do to find balance. He had an intelligent and sensible wife who similarly wanted him to be the best person he possibly could, and would have accepted any decision he needed to make either for his own sake or the galaxy's. The problems Anakin had - his lack of basic trust in others, a violent temper, inhuman power, loved ones destined by the universe to die combined with severe attachment issues - aren't things that can possibly be emotionally resolved by someone giving you the exact right kind of encouragement, either in the Star Wars universe or in real life. You need to face and be willing to work on things like that yourself and make some tough decisions, and Anakin vehemently wasn't, which was why he spiraled. If he had been trained from young childhood to rely on others for understanding and emotional support like literally all other Jedi were then he wouldn't have gotten to that point in the first place. I don't get how an organization can keep the galactic peace for a thousand years, then specifically make an exception in their usual methods to train someone who hasn't grown up with the foundation that all of them otherwise have, and then that guy spirals out of control due to a third party's manipulation, and now people blame their foundation for being rotten? The only reason people read it like that is that young people being encouraged not to indulge their emotions to the fullest regardless of consequences is the modern definition of evil. Yoda wasn't teaching Luke to "believe in himself", he was encouraging Luke to stop whining and doubting and just do what he damn well knew needed to be done without letting his moodiness and childish insecurity interfere. That's what "Do or do not, there is no try." means. He never rebuked Luke for having feelings, he rebuked him for letting his feelings control him when the galaxy was depending on him to act with clarity and conviction instead. And I'm sorry, I don't accept the idea that a person who has never made a real mistake or been forced to accept and grow from criticism, whose personal interests have somehow always been perfectly in line with her duties and who has ultimately succeeded in everything she ever put her mind to could possibly teach another generation about how to deal with failure and sacrifice without letting it corrupt their worldview.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 7, 2020 11:48:19 GMT
Though Luke and Rey's journeys are similar on paper - both dreamt of leaving their dessert plan behind in exchange for a more fulfilling life, both trained to become Jedi under the tutelage of legendary masters who subverted their expectations
To channel my inner Luke. Amazing, everything you just said is wrong.
Rey didn't want t leave her planet, she was doing everything she could to stay on Jakku to have a life when her parents when they came back. She didn't learn from a legendary master, she learned from a padawan. I honestly almost stopped reading here.
But My God, she only has a year of training. From a padawan at that. How is she going to lead students and develop them.? I don't know if they say exactly when Luke started his school. But at the time he was training Kylo, Luke would have had about twenty years of training, practice and developing skills and knowledge. His school failed because one student struggling with the dark side of the force. That is a risk that could arise whether they're Sith in the galaxy, or if the galaxy is at peace or at war.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 7, 2020 12:11:18 GMT
I am sure this will shock the heck out of you, but watching the entire Saga in the up to TROS...I pretty much agree with about ninety percent of the articles conclusions. Though admittedly I did miss the implications of the 'Luke rebelling' thing and his initial hesitance to go off with Obi-Wan. I suppose the rest of it has to do with our intepretations of your other main point in your little spiel. I mean sure you are right, the Jedi did become too beurocratic and too concerned about what the Republic as a whole was doing..esentially becoming FBI, and then soldiers. But that is just a symptom of the larger flaws of the Jedi Order circa the Clone Wars. And those larger flaws are...their dogma and over adherence to their own point of view on what the Force is. What balance in the Force is. And what 'good' and 'evil' of the Force is. They became so monolithic, so concerned about their own power that they literally pushed away anyone or anything that did not match into their narrow views on the Force. Namely in their case that ALL emotion is evil, corrupting, and will lead anyone who experiences them to become some kind of horrific mass murdering monster. Anything from traditionally positive emotions like love and friendship and compassion to negative emotions like hate and anger and fear... to the Jedi of the Clone Wars feeling all of that leads straight to the Sith. And they don't encourage their padawans to actually learn self control or emotional wholeness, no, they encourage them to try ignoring all of it because they don't lift one finger to actually help Anakin through with his problems. Now where does this leave Rey? I mean you might be right her Jedi Order could 'easily' become the next evil, corrupt, all knowing, dogmatic Sith or Clone Wars era Jedi. But it would be a really weird look considering she saw Luke essentially do that very thing to Ben however briefly...and it backfired spectacularily. And even more to the point given her own issues and her own lessons given how she has had NUMEROUS opprotunities to give into her negative impulses (anger, rage, and her abbandonment issues) (to the point where the only reason she didn't fall to the dark side basically was sheer dumb luck...given that Starkiller base opened a chasm which may have spared Kylo Ren from her righteous wrath...and other characters sacrificing themselves...like when Leia did so) and yet ultimatley she chose good. Ultimatley she chose to reject her lineage and reject becoming ruler over everything...for might I also remind you relatively benign reasons at the time (saving the Resistance) in favor of the good guy Jedi path. She's already faced this test and faced the test of her own demons and passed with more or less flying colors. Sure, she could stumble in the actual doing of making her own Jedi Order...just like Luke did...but that would be pretty repetitive so I hope, if they do continue this story, they give her other issues. So yeah, believe in yourself and accept yourself might sound super hippy...but I find it a far better message then classic Clone Wars Jedi 'emotion is evil'. And its also kind of in line with some of the lessons Yoda was trying to pass onto Luke from Empire...that he needed to believe in himself and the Force in order to lift that X-Wing. She didn't really want to become a Jedi. Remember all she wanted was for someone to teach her and give her understanding of her own developing powers...because they scared the crap out of her. What they meant, what they were, and how to control them. Her journey was one more or less of self discovery, self acceptance, and forging her own past seperate from her Sith lineage...which at the end of her jourey she just sort of naturally fell into being a Jedi and she chose it for herself. Once she found an identity she was happy with it let her grow into her role as the Last of the Jedi Religion. And Anakin had all the support in the world. He had several understanding and rational and wise masters who wanted the best for him and who would have understood his situation better than he thought they would, and if he had confided in any of them they would kindly but firmly have advised and encouraged him to take whatever steps necessary to come clean and organize his thoughts and life and understand himself and everything else he would have needed to do to find balance. He had an intelligent and sensible wife who similarly wanted him to be the best person he possibly could, and would have accepted any decision he needed to make either for his own sake or the galaxy's. The problems Anakin had - his lack of basic trust in others, a violent temper, inhuman power, loved ones destined by the universe to die combined with severe attachment issues - aren't things that can possibly be emotionally resolved by someone giving you the exact right kind of encouragement, either in the Star Wars universe or in real life. You need to face and be willing to work on things like that yourself and make some tough decisions, and Anakin vehemently wasn't, which was why he spiraled. If he had been trained from young childhood to rely on others for understanding and emotional support like literally all other Jedi were then he wouldn't have gotten to that point in the first place.
Anakin was also arrogant and lacked patience. He thought that since he was the chosen one, everything should just be given to him. While the Jedi were trying to bring him along slowly because they knew too much power without the proper knowledge could turn out badly. Just look at AOTC when he says he lacked the power to save his mom because of Obi-Wan. Said Obi-Wan was jealous and holding him back. How he reacted when they wouldn't make him a master just because Palpatine put him on the council, or when they chose Obi-Wan to fight grievous instead of him. There were not decisions that showed failings in the Jedi, they were failings within Anakin.
He wanted everything before he had earned it.
Somewhere out there Anakin's force ghost is pointing at Rey and telling Obi-Wan's force ghost, see, that's what I wanted. All the power without any of the work. You were holding me back.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2020 16:12:13 GMT
Well, sure. Disney's gotta have their OWN character revive the Jedi., Nor one of those old Lucasfilm farts. Not to mention have a Palpatine bring back the Jedi rather than a Skywalker. Subvert those expectations! I don't tend to visit the sins of the parents (or grand parennts) in this case on their descendants. If anything that is kind of a key theme in Rey's arc. She is not bound to the same evil of her bloodline. I'm sorry, I thought this was supposed to be the SKYWALKER saga...
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2020 16:21:37 GMT
I don't see how it works. She's a bit of a Force-user savant, and is barely trained - most Jedi train from childhood. How is she going to pass on to other Jedi what knowledge she barely knows, or experience she barely has? She's got the books and Jedi Force ghosts to help I guess... You-know-who is probably going to be giving Rey the evil eye from Force heaven if her students start calling her "Master". It's also written by someone who hasn't seen either the original trilogy or the prequels in a while. Luke explicitly said that he had every intention of dropping Ben Kenobi off at Mos Eisley and then going right back to moisture farming, because he wouldn't leave his parents behind without their blessing. It wasn't until they were killed and he realized that there was no hiding from the Empire's atrocities that he committed to becoming a Jedi. Fighting with the rebellion most certainly wasn't some inner rebellion against their wishes for him. Similarly, "the danger of dogmas and absolutes" absolutely isn't a theme in the prequels. On the contrary, the Jedi fell because their faith and vigilance and adherence to the balance of the Force were eroded by bureaucracy and compromise, which paralyzed and blinded them to more focused enemies and left their struggling members vulnerable to corruption. And urgh. Rey has no relationship whatsoever with the history or philosophy of the Jedi, and she has the one book which just turned out to be Luke Skywalker's travel journal. If anything, she's the worst positioned to carry on the tradition in the entire series. The only thing pointed out that she really might have in her favor is the Palpatine temperament, compared to the Skywalkers'. And that's a pretty shaky idea. And I don't know about those Force Ghosts. If they couldn't be bothered to interfere while Leia's son was driving himself mad pursuing his idealized image of Darth Vader, and couldn't be bothered to poke Luke out of his depression while his real life's work crumbled throughout the galaxy, then I'm going to be pretty annoyed if they turn up en masse just to cheerlead Rey's newly opened daycare for gifted children. Which is just going to be her going around passive-aggressively lecturing her students for not being open or accepting enough of themselves or each other to naturally manifest expertise like she does, because the new and improved Force is all about listening to your heart and being yourself and letting go of all that restraint bullshit. While resenting them for forcing her to stick around and take care of them instead of flying off to do whatever she needs just because it's her "responsibility", until she gets pissy and palms them off to an eager and understanding Finn because she shouldn't be shackled by some hypothetical duty the next generation. And then we're all going to be required to clap at her courage and independence for not compromising herself for tradition's sake. One of the depressing things about The Rise of Skywalker is that words really cannot express how uninterested I am in how "Rey Skywalker" thinks she's going to rebuild anything. So far as I can see the Jedi are just... finished. And Rey's pupils are going to be the precursors to the modern Sith who are going to rule the galaxy with an iron fist of unhinged and uninformed enforced self-expression and ruthless suppression of anything they disagree with. Until an off-branch develops the discipline to master themselves for a higher purpose and strike them down, restoring freedom and justice to the galaxy. And then we can start over. And when the Snowflake Jedi rise, I'm sure the Emperor will ressurect himself yet again before long and start the whole process all over again "The Absolutely Final, This-Time-I-Really-Mean-It Order" With its' galaxy-destroyed superomega cannons.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 7, 2020 16:49:32 GMT
Why did Rey want to become a Jedi? That was one of the many questions that sequel trilogy was vague on? What was her motive to do so when the first Jedi she met was a total jerk towards her? You know the answer
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 7, 2020 18:21:44 GMT
I don't tend to visit the sins of the parents (or grand parennts) in this case on their descendants. If anything that is kind of a key theme in Rey's arc. She is not bound to the same evil of her bloodline. I'm sorry, I thought this was supposed to be the SKYWALKER saga... They misspelled it, it's the Wokewalker, Bokewalker Saga.😉
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 18:59:41 GMT
Though Luke and Rey's journeys are similar on paper - both dreamt of leaving their dessert plan behind in exchange for a more fulfilling life, both trained to become Jedi under the tutelage of legendary masters who subverted their expectations
To channel my inner Luke. Amazing, everything you just said is wrong.
Rey didn't want t leave her planet, she was doing everything she could to stay on Jakku to have a life when her parents when they came back. She didn't learn from a legendary master, she learned from a padawan. I honestly almost stopped reading here.
But My God, she only has a year of training. From a padawan at that. How is she going to lead students and develop them.? I don't know if they say exactly when Luke started his school. But at the time he was training Kylo, Luke would have had about twenty years of training, practice and developing skills and knowledge. His school failed because one student struggling with the dark side of the force. That is a risk that could arise whether they're Sith in the galaxy, or if the galaxy is at peace or at war. Rey did want to leave...with her parents. I mean the article seems to make the usual assumptions that the two of them are hyper similar...probably because the author wanted them to be related...they actually are quite different. Whereas Luke was whiny and impulsive Rey was humble and dutiful. And for all intents and purposes Luke was a legendary Jedi Master. I mean that is the obvious read from ROTJ, TFA, and TLJ. To call him just a padawan is a really bizarre take that seems only to exist to diminish him so you can attack Rey...though I just realized that you're talking about Leia. Which is just ignoring the training she got from Luke and the AJTs...but then I know we disagree because you're in the 'Luke was a failure' crowd. All this is to say Luke had about the same training (even less) when he went to start the Order. Whenever he did. The article does not presuppose she'll do it immediately but that when she does she'll have a better chance at getting it right. I agree. And not for any feminist agenda, not because she's a woman hear her roar but hee character journey makes her better equipped to avoid the MANY mistakes the Jedi made. I don't tend to visit the sins of the parents (or grand parennts) in this case on their descendants. If anything that is kind of a key theme in Rey's arc. She is not bound to the same evil of her bloodline. I'm sorry, I thought this was supposed to be the SKYWALKER saga... It still is.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 7, 2020 19:05:43 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 7, 2020 19:08:49 GMT
Though Luke and Rey's journeys are similar on paper - both dreamt of leaving their dessert plan behind in exchange for a more fulfilling life, both trained to become Jedi under the tutelage of legendary masters who subverted their expectations
To channel my inner Luke. Amazing, everything you just said is wrong.
Rey didn't want t leave her planet, she was doing everything she could to stay on Jakku to have a life when her parents when they came back. She didn't learn from a legendary master, she learned from a padawan. I honestly almost stopped reading here.
But My God, she only has a year of training. From a padawan at that. How is she going to lead students and develop them.? I don't know if they say exactly when Luke started his school. But at the time he was training Kylo, Luke would have had about twenty years of training, practice and developing skills and knowledge. His school failed because one student struggling with the dark side of the force. That is a risk that could arise whether they're Sith in the galaxy, or if the galaxy is at peace or at war. And not for any feminist agenda, not because she's a woman hear her roar but her character journey makes her better equipped to avoid the MANY mistakes the Jedi made.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 19:12:12 GMT
You know the more I think about it the more I realize the Jedi weren't just corrupt demagogues but also insanely hypocritical.
'Let's cut ourselves off from all emotion and say it's a path straight to evil...but we'll train these very human younglings in the ways of the Force making them ultra powerful but when they express emotions we'll either ignore it till it blows up in our face or kick them out of the Order...when remember we trained them to be Space Wizards and think they'll fall to the darkside without our benign guidance'...
Good plan.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 19:13:03 GMT
And not for any feminist agenda, not because she's a woman hear her roar but her character journey makes her better equipped to avoid the MANY mistakes the Jedi made. That was a reference to the she man post yes.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 7, 2020 19:31:13 GMT
Though Luke and Rey's journeys are similar on paper - both dreamt of leaving their dessert plan behind in exchange for a more fulfilling life, both trained to become Jedi under the tutelage of legendary masters who subverted their expectations
To channel my inner Luke. Amazing, everything you just said is wrong.
Rey didn't want t leave her planet, she was doing everything she could to stay on Jakku to have a life when her parents when they came back. She didn't learn from a legendary master, she learned from a padawan. I honestly almost stopped reading here.
But My God, she only has a year of training. From a padawan at that. How is she going to lead students and develop them.? I don't know if they say exactly when Luke started his school. But at the time he was training Kylo, Luke would have had about twenty years of training, practice and developing skills and knowledge. His school failed because one student struggling with the dark side of the force. That is a risk that could arise whether they're Sith in the galaxy, or if the galaxy is at peace or at war. Rey did want to leave...with her parents. I mean the article seems to make the usual assumptions that the two of them are hyper similar...probably because the author wanted them to be related...they actually are quite different. Whereas Luke was whiny and impulsive Rey was humble and dutiful. And for all intents and purposes Luke was a legendary Jedi Master. I mean that is the obvious read from ROTJ, TFA, and TLJ. To call him just a padawan is a really bizarre take that seems only to exist to diminish him so you can attack Rey...though I just realized that you're talking about Leia. Which is just ignoring the training she got from Luke and the AJTs...but then I know we disagree because you're in the 'Luke was a failure' crowd.All this is to say Luke had about the same training (even less) when he went to start the Order. Whenever he did. The article does not presuppose she'll do it immediately but that when she does she'll have a better chance at getting it right. I agree. And not for any feminist agenda, not because she's a woman hear her roar but hee character journey makes her better equipped to avoid the MANY mistakes the Jedi made. I'm sorry, I thought this was supposed to be the SKYWALKER saga... It still is. Luke didn't train Rey, Leia did, and Leia was a padawan since she never finished her training. All Luke did was give Rey a verbal lesson, tickle her hand with a leaf, and give her a pep talk in TROS. What training did Luke give her? I mean, real training. Also, how would luke have had less training than Rey. Luke had five years of training at the end of ROTJ, which is far more than Rey received in and of itself. So whenever he started to school after that, he would have been more experienced than Rey. He would have also had far more knowledge than Rey's Master.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 19:36:13 GMT
Rey did want to leave...with her parents. I mean the article seems to make the usual assumptions that the two of them are hyper similar...probably because the author wanted them to be related...they actually are quite different. Whereas Luke was whiny and impulsive Rey was humble and dutiful. And for all intents and purposes Luke was a legendary Jedi Master. I mean that is the obvious read from ROTJ, TFA, and TLJ. To call him just a padawan is a really bizarre take that seems only to exist to diminish him so you can attack Rey...though I just realized that you're talking about Leia. Which is just ignoring the training she got from Luke and the AJTs...but then I know we disagree because you're in the 'Luke was a failure' crowd.All this is to say Luke had about the same training (even less) when he went to start the Order. Whenever he did. The article does not presuppose she'll do it immediately but that when she does she'll have a better chance at getting it right. I agree. And not for any feminist agenda, not because she's a woman hear her roar but hee character journey makes her better equipped to avoid the MANY mistakes the Jedi made. It still is. Luke didn't train Rey, Leia did, and Leia was a padawan since she never finished her training. All Luke did was give Rey a verbal lesson, tickle her hand with a leaf, and give her a pep talk in TROS. What training did Luke give her? I mean, real training. All the stuff he taught her in TLJ for starters. I know everyone wants training to be swinging a lightsaber around and using the Force 101 but, for all their flaws, even the old Jedi knew half the battle was mental and philosophical. They were just pumping some really weird garbage out.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 7, 2020 19:39:40 GMT
Luke didn't train Rey, Leia did, and Leia was a padawan since she never finished her training. All Luke did was give Rey a verbal lesson, tickle her hand with a leaf, and give her a pep talk in TROS. What training did Luke give her? I mean, real training. All the stuff he taught her in TLJ for starters. I know everyone wants training to be swinging a lightsaber around and using the Force 101 but, for all their flaws, even the old Jedi knew half the battle was mental and philosophical. They were just pumping some really weird garbage out. He said OK, I'll tell you three things. That was it. He didn't give her any other training, and she left that night to try and save Kylo. What exactly is all the stuff he taught her.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 7, 2020 19:40:41 GMT
We didn’t even know the third lesson he taught Rey. If he even told her.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 20:22:06 GMT
Since primary sources are so important:
Apologies for the disjointed final one it was the best...also couldn't find a good version of the episode 9 scene.
But those were all vital lessons, both for SWs and IRL.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2020 20:24:02 GMT
We didn’t even know the third lesson he taught Rey. If he even told her. It was a deleted scene if I recall. I believe the lesson was about looking at the bigger picture before acting, since doing what seems like the right thing at the moment might actually make things worse overall.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2020 21:27:03 GMT
I suppose. If it's the Saga of the Failure of the Skywalkers.
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