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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2020 21:35:08 GMT
Luke didn't train Rey, Leia did, and Leia was a padawan since she never finished her training. All Luke did was give Rey a verbal lesson, tickle her hand with a leaf, and give her a pep talk in TROS. What training did Luke give her? I mean, real training. All the stuff he taught her in TLJ for starters. I know everyone wants training to be swinging a lightsaber around and using the Force 101 but, for all their flaws, even the old Jedi knew half the battle was mental and philosophical. They were just pumping some really weird garbage out. Jake Skywalker didn't teach her jack sh*t. Literally all he taught her was how the Jedi were failures. How they needed to end. How life sucks. He taught her NOTHING about how to use the Force. About how to sense it, communicate with it, trust in it, how to avoid the Dark Side. He taught her nothing of the dangers of fear, aggression, hatred. He didn't show her how to build a lightsaber. Edit: After beating up Jake Skywalker and robbing him, Rey was a Sith Lord waiting to happen.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2020 21:38:40 GMT
We didn’t even know the third lesson he taught Rey. If he even told her. It was a deleted scene if I recall. I believe the lesson was about looking at the bigger picture before acting, since doing what seems like the right thing at the moment might actually make things worse overall. Figures the one lesson that MIGHT have been worth learning ends up on the cutting room floor...
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Post by colfoley on Feb 7, 2020 23:15:17 GMT
All the stuff he taught her in TLJ for starters. I know everyone wants training to be swinging a lightsaber around and using the Force 101 but, for all their flaws, even the old Jedi knew half the battle was mental and philosophical. They were just pumping some really weird garbage out. Jake Skywalker didn't teach her jack sh*t. Literally all he taught her was how the Jedi were failures. How they needed to end. How life sucks. He taught her NOTHING about how to use the Force. About how to sense it, communicate with it, trust in it, how to avoid the Dark Side. He taught her nothing of the dangers of fear, aggression, hatred. He didn't show her how to build a lightsaber. Edit: After beating up Jake Skywalker and robbing him, Rey was a Sith Lord waiting to happen. Microcasm of the macrocasm.... Anyways the lessons that Luke taught her in the Last Jedi are three fold. First Lesson: The Nature of the Force. Second Lesson: That Jedi Hubris and arrogance was as much responsible for their fall and the rise of the Empire as anything. They thought their perspective was the only one...that they were the judges and masters of the Force. What they ideally should be is protectors, guardians, and servants of the Will of the Force. Third Lesson: Despite their failures the Jedi still remain, at their core, a good organization worth saving. That their failures do not doom them to the dark path as much as the emotion they feared. And this is supported by the dialogue and the actions I rewatched and posted. I don't know what lessons 'Jake Skywalker' did and did not teach her, in the many times I've watched all the Star Wars movies and other Star Wars media I've never run into a 'Jake' Skywalker. Luke, Anakin, Rey (adopted) and Leia (by blood), Shmi...but no Jake's. Also, Noxluxe since you asked earlier for scenes showing Jedi fear to emotion: What's damning is how absolutley certain they are in their own ideology. Fear IS the Path to the Darkside...not a path...THE Path. Once you start down the dark path FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. You MUST train yourself to let go of everything you fear to loose. This wasn't an organization that believed in balance, temperance, and working through your problems, but an organization that was so certain their feces don't stink that they didn't consider any other flaws. And the movies constantly prove the lie to the Jedi ideology. Luke, Obi-Wan, Anakin/Vader, Rey were very angry scared people at times with a wealth of character flaws...but all of them came back from the dark...or resisted it. All of them knew that they weren't forever doomed bexcause they loved people or feared for them.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 8, 2020 0:19:09 GMT
Since primary sources are so important: Apologies for the disjointed final one it was the best...also couldn't find a good version of the episode 9 scene. But those were all vital lessons, both for SWs and IRL. So bascially, it's what I said. A couple of verbal lessons and rubbing her hand with a leaf. Rey's supposed training from Luke was the first two clips. One of which was just the Jedi are bad, let me tell to the story of Kylo Ren. Yoda gave Luke more tutelage in their clip then Luke gave to Rey in his two 'lessons'. Luke's entire arc in the movie was refusing to train Rey because he had given up on the Jedi, and then thanks to Yoda, realizing he made a mistake after she left and going to try and make amends by helping at the end so that Jedi would have hope of preserving the order. Yoda literally told Luke what he needed to do for Rey, but he never got the chance. Rey got all her formative training from Leia.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2020 0:32:16 GMT
Jake Skywalker didn't teach her jack sh*t. Literally all he taught her was how the Jedi were failures. How they needed to end. How life sucks. He taught her NOTHING about how to use the Force. About how to sense it, communicate with it, trust in it, how to avoid the Dark Side. He taught her nothing of the dangers of fear, aggression, hatred. He didn't show her how to build a lightsaber. Edit: After beating up Jake Skywalker and robbing him, Rey was a Sith Lord waiting to happen. Microcasm of the macrocasm.... Anyways the lessons that Luke taught her in the Last Jedi are three fold. First Lesson: The Nature of the Force. Second Lesson: That Jedi Hubris and arrogance was as much responsible for their fall and the rise of the Empire as anything. They thought their perspective was the only one...that they were the judges and masters of the Force. What they ideally should be is protectors, guardians, and servants of the Will of the Force. Third Lesson: Despite their failures the Jedi still remain, at their core, a good organization worth saving. That their failures do not doom them to the dark path as much as the emotion they feared. And this is supported by the dialogue and the actions I rewatched and posted. I don't know what lessons 'Jake Skywalker' did and did not teach her, in the many times I've watched all the Star Wars movies and other Star Wars media I've never run into a 'Jake' Skywalker. Luke, Anakin, Rey (adopted) and Leia (by blood), Shmi...but no Jake's. First lesson was: The Jedi had it all wrong about the Force. Which is a lesson that didn't need teaching. Luke WAS the Jedi at this point, and he could teach any damn thing he wanted about the Force. No need to drag the old Jedi into it, except to, well, drag on them. Besides which, what was it he was taught about the Force again? The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.-Obi Won Kenobi For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.-Yoda Which makes Jake Skywalker's wangst against the Jedi all the more pointless, because the Jedi that taught him gave him a very similar lesson about the Force. Second lesson, equally pointless. Again he WAS the Jedi. If he thought the Jedi of the Old Republic failed, learn from it and take the Jedi in a new direction. "Pass on what you have learned" Except Jake Skywalker only learned how to mope, it seems. Third lesson: there was none. Certainly not "The Jedi are worth saving" In fact, that's precisely the OPPOSITE of what he was saying: And you know damned well what I mean about Jake Skywalker. Mark Hamill himself coined the term, because even he didn't think it was "Luke SKywalker" he was playing.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 8, 2020 0:44:58 GMT
Also, Noxluxe since you asked earlier for scenes showing Jedi fear to emotion: What's damning is how absolutley certain they are in their own ideology. Fear IS the Path to the Darkside...not a path...THE Path. Once you start down the dark path FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. You MUST train yourself to let go of everything you fear to loose. This wasn't an organization that believed in balance, temperance, and working through your problems, but an organization that was so certain their feces don't stink that they didn't consider any other flaws. And the movies constantly prove the lie to the Jedi ideology. Luke, Obi-Wan, Anakin/Vader, Rey were very angry scared people at times with a wealth of character flaws...but all of them came back from the dark...or resisted it. All of them knew that they weren't forever doomed bexcause they loved people or feared for them. That's funny, when Yoda points out that he can feel that little Anakin is absolutely terrified and Anakin refuses to acknowledge it, Mace Windu tells him "be mindful of your feelings". Not "your feelings make you a dirty little boy, begone!", or "You have feelings! You're going to be evil!" Be mindful of them. Try to understand them and rein them in when they cross a line. "Fear is the path to the dark side" isn't a statement that even vaguely implies that people who possess fear are going to be evil. It states that fear is the path, that indulging your fear leads you to other extreme negatives and eventually only pain. "Once you start down the path then it will forever dominate your destiny", i.e.: once you commit to letting your actions and decisions be ruled by fear, anger and hate then obviously it's going to have long-term repercussions for your life and those of others, whether you later decide to turn back or not. This is as true in real life as it demonstrably is for Anakin. And I love how people hate on Yoda for encouraging Anakin to "let go" without thinking one bit about the context. This really unstable young Jedi comes to him and cagily tells him that he has sensed the coming death of someone he holds dear. I.e: their death is inevitable, the Force has spoken. Not unlike if they'd been diagnosed with a terminal disease and Anakin was pacing around the waiting room, obviously about to explode with anxiety and looking for any excuse to do something about it no matter how stupid or destructive. Yoda counsels him that letting yourself fall to pieces and pursuing fearful and angry courses of action is the wrong way to handle someone else's certainly approaching death, and that the only constructive thing he can do is try to be happy that they lived and that their natures will join with the force again. Because letting your attachment and fear of loss destroy your morals because of something you can't change would be wrong and insane, and resenting the universe for not letting you have things you want - attachment being the shadow of greed - is a terribly destructive way of living. I get that in today's day and age it's really easy to hear stuff like that and feel defensive about having feelings yourself, and feel like Yoda is judging you, but at no point does he rebuke Anakin just for having emotions. He gives Anakin the only advice that someone in that position can actually use, and Anakin is the one who refuses to hear it because he is truly obsessed with Padme and will not accept having to live with her death even at the cost of everything. And lo and behold, Anakin's fear of letting go of Padme drives him to stupid, insane and impulsive actions that result in him spending the rest of his life wreathed in anger, hatred and pain, hating the galaxy for taking her from him. Yoda's advice was totally on point. If he had centered himself and tried to hold onto his morals and principles and honor in spite of the loss - like everyone else must when they lose a loved one - then he could have recovered and the galaxy would have been better off. But no, he had to do something, anything, about it, because his fear demanded it. The Jedi never say that you can't turn back from the dark side, or can't be a good person because you've been on that path at one point. All they say is that it's hard to turn back, and that indulging in it leads to suffering and destruction, which it absolutely has for the characters that have indulged in it. Which Rey certainly never did. The closest she ever came was mortally wounding Kylo in self-defense, and being a Mary Sue she could just immediately stretch her hand out and fix that afterwards, redeeming him in the process, so it actually worked out in her favor instead.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2020 1:16:23 GMT
Also, Noxluxe since you asked earlier for scenes showing Jedi fear to emotion: What's damning is how absolutley certain they are in their own ideology. Fear IS the Path to the Darkside...not a path...THE Path. Once you start down the dark path FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. You MUST train yourself to let go of everything you fear to loose. This wasn't an organization that believed in balance, temperance, and working through your problems, but an organization that was so certain their feces don't stink that they didn't consider any other flaws. And the movies constantly prove the lie to the Jedi ideology. Luke, Obi-Wan, Anakin/Vader, Rey were very angry scared people at times with a wealth of character flaws...but all of them came back from the dark...or resisted it. All of them knew that they weren't forever doomed bexcause they loved people or feared for them. That's funny, when Yoda points out that he can feel that little Anakin is absolutely terrified and Anakin refuses to acknowledge it, Mace Windu tells him "be mindful of your feelings". Not "your feelings make you a dirty little boy, begone!", or "You have feelings! You're going to be evil!" Be mindful of them. Try to understand them and rein them in when they cross a line. "Fear is the path to the dark side" isn't a statement that even vaguely implies that people who possess fear are going to be evil. It states that fear is the path, that indulging your fear leads you to other extreme negatives and eventually only pain. "Once you start down the path then it will forever dominate your destiny", i.e.: once you commit to letting your actions and decisions be ruled by fear, anger and hate then obviously it's going to have long-term repercussions for your life and those of others, whether you later decide to turn back or not. This is as true in real life as it demonstrably is for Anakin. And I love how people hate on Yoda for encouraging Anakin to "let go" without thinking one bit about the context. This really unstable young Jedi comes to him and cagily tells him that he has sensed the coming death of someone he holds dear. I.e: their death is inevitable, the Force has spoken. Not unlike if they'd been diagnosed with a terminal disease and Anakin was pacing around the waiting room, obviously about to explode with anxiety and looking for any excuse to do something about it no matter how stupid or destructive. Yoda counsels him that letting yourself fall to pieces and pursuing fearful and angry courses of action is the wrong way to handle someone else's certainly approaching death, and that the only constructive thing he can do is try to be happy that they lived and that their natures will join with the force again. Because letting your attachment and fear of loss destroy your morals because of something you can't change would be wrong and insane, and resenting the universe for not letting you have things you want - attachment being the shadow of greed - is a terribly destructive way of living. I get that in today's day and age it's really easy to hear stuff like that and feel defensive about having feelings yourself, and feel like Yoda is judging you, but at no point does he rebuke Anakin just for having emotions. He gives Anakin the only advice that someone in that position can actually use, and Anakin is the one who refuses to hear it because he is truly obsessed with Padme and will not accept having to live with her death even at the cost of everything. And lo and behold, Anakin's fear of letting go of Padme drives him to stupid, insane and impulsive actions that result in him spending the rest of his life wreathed in anger, hatred and pain, hating the galaxy for taking her from him. Yoda's advice was totally on point. If he had centered himself and tried to hold onto his morals and principles and honor in spite of the loss - like everyone else must when they lose a loved one - then he could have recovered and the galaxy would have been better off. But no, he had to do something, anything, about it, because his fear demanded it. The Jedi never say that you can't turn back from the dark side, or can't be a good person because you've been on that path at one point. All they say is that it's hard to turn back, and that indulging in it leads to suffering and destruction, which it absolutely has for the characters that have indulged in it. Which Rey certainly never did. The closest she ever came was mortally wounding Kylo in self-defense, and being a Mary Sue she could just immediately stretch her hand out and fix that afterwards, redeeming him in the process, so it actually worked out in her favor instead. Indeed. The Jedi never say that emotions are wrong, that they should all be droids. They teach that they should remain in control of their emotions. Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor. Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings! “You were my brother, Anakin! I loved you!”
Luke : I won't fail you. I'm not afraid.
Yoda : You will be. You... will... be.
Yoda :A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke : Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda : No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke : But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda : You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Yoda : Much anger in him... like his father.
Obi-Wan : [voice] Was I any different when you taught me?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 8, 2020 1:21:55 GMT
Also, Noxluxe since you asked earlier for scenes showing Jedi fear to emotion: What's damning is how absolutley certain they are in their own ideology. Fear IS the Path to the Darkside...not a path...THE Path. Once you start down the dark path FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. You MUST train yourself to let go of everything you fear to loose. This wasn't an organization that believed in balance, temperance, and working through your problems, but an organization that was so certain their feces don't stink that they didn't consider any other flaws. And the movies constantly prove the lie to the Jedi ideology. Luke, Obi-Wan, Anakin/Vader, Rey were very angry scared people at times with a wealth of character flaws...but all of them came back from the dark...or resisted it. All of them knew that they weren't forever doomed bexcause they loved people or feared for them. That's funny, when Yoda points out that he can feel that little Anakin is absolutely terrified and Anakin refuses to acknowledge it, Mace Windu tells him "be mindful of your feelings". Not "your feelings make you a dirty little boy, begone!", or "You have feelings! You're going to be evil!" Be mindful of them. Try to understand them and rein them in when they cross a line. "Fear is the path to the dark side" isn't a statement that even vaguely implies that people who possess fear are going to be evil. It states that fear is the path, that indulging your fear leads you to other extreme negatives and eventually only pain. "Once you start down the path then it will forever dominate your destiny", i.e.: once you commit to letting your actions and decisions be ruled by fear, anger and hate then obviously it's going to have long-term repercussions for your life and those of others, whether you later decide to turn back or not. This is as true in real life as it demonstrably is for Anakin. And I love how people hate on Yoda for encouraging Anakin to "let go" without thinking one bit about the context. This really unstable young Jedi comes to him and cagily tells him that he has sensed the coming death of someone he holds dear. I.e: their death is inevitable, the Force has spoken. Not unlike if they'd been diagnosed with a terminal disease and Anakin was pacing around the waiting room, obviously about to explode with anxiety and looking for any excuse to do something about it no matter how stupid or destructive. Yoda counsels him that letting yourself fall to pieces and pursuing fearful and angry courses of action is the wrong way to handle someone else's certainly approaching death, and that the only constructive thing he can do is try to be happy that they lived and that their natures will join with the force again. Because letting your attachment and fear of loss destroy your morals because of something you can't change would be wrong and insane, and resenting the universe for not letting you have things you want - attachment being the shadow of greed - is a terribly destructive way of living. I get that in today's day and age it's really easy to hear stuff like that and feel defensive about having feelings yourself, and feel like Yoda is judging you, but at no point does he rebuke Anakin just for having emotions. He gives Anakin the only advice that someone in that position can actually use, and Anakin is the one who refuses to hear it because he is truly obsessed with Padme and will not accept having to live with her death even at the cost of everything. And lo and behold, Anakin's fear of letting go of Padme drives him to stupid, insane and impulsive actions that result in him spending the rest of his life wreathed in anger, hatred and pain, hating the galaxy for taking her from him. Yoda's advice was totally on point. If he had centered himself and tried to hold onto his morals and principles and honor in spite of the loss - like everyone else must when they lose a loved one - then he could have recovered and the galaxy would have been better off. But no, he had to do something, anything, about it, because his fear demanded it. The Jedi never say that you can't turn back from the dark side, or can't be a good person because you've been on that path at one point. All they say is that it's hard to turn back, and that indulging in it leads to suffering and destruction, which it absolutely has for the characters that have indulged in it. Which Rey certainly never did. The closest she ever came was mortally wounding Kylo in self-defense, and being a Mary Sue she could just immediately stretch her hand out and fix that afterwards, redeeming him in the process, so it actually worked out in her favor instead. You were THIS close to getting a like. I mean razor close. Its actually a fairly good point you raise and you bring up a lot of actual evidence countering my points. I suppose it depends on what you put emphasis on and which part of the Jedi quotes you think is more relevant. My only issue in what you bring up is that the Jedi Order didn't actually want to train Anakin and had very much of a 'begone child' attitude. Granted had they done so it probably would've been the most justifiable thing they could've done in the circumstances given their perspective...but they chose to train him...and didn't really know what to do with him once they got him. As far as the Rey stuff is concerned the only reason she didn't 'fall ot the dark side' right then and there is that Leia's death snapped her out of it. Not the behavior typical of a flawless mary sue. Microcasm of the macrocasm.... Anyways the lessons that Luke taught her in the Last Jedi are three fold. First Lesson: The Nature of the Force. Second Lesson: That Jedi Hubris and arrogance was as much responsible for their fall and the rise of the Empire as anything. They thought their perspective was the only one...that they were the judges and masters of the Force. What they ideally should be is protectors, guardians, and servants of the Will of the Force. Third Lesson: Despite their failures the Jedi still remain, at their core, a good organization worth saving. That their failures do not doom them to the dark path as much as the emotion they feared. And this is supported by the dialogue and the actions I rewatched and posted. I don't know what lessons 'Jake Skywalker' did and did not teach her, in the many times I've watched all the Star Wars movies and other Star Wars media I've never run into a 'Jake' Skywalker. Luke, Anakin, Rey (adopted) and Leia (by blood), Shmi...but no Jake's. First lesson was: The Jedi had it all wrong about the Force. Which is a lesson that didn't need teaching. Luke WAS the Jedi at this point, and he could teach any damn thing he wanted about the Force. No need to drag the old Jedi into it, except to, well, drag on them. Besides which, what was it he was taught about the Force again? The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.-Obi Won Kenobi For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.-Yoda Which makes Jake Skywalker's wangst against the Jedi all the more pointless, because the Jedi that taught him gave him a very similar lesson about the Force. Second lesson, equally pointless. Again he WAS the Jedi. If he thought the Jedi of the Old Republic failed, learn from it and take the Jedi in a new direction. "Pass on what you have learned" Except Jake Skywalker only learned how to mope, it seems. Third lesson: there was none. Certainly not "The Jedi are worth saving" In fact, that's precisely the OPPOSITE of what he was saying: And you know damned well what I mean about Jake Skywalker. Mark Hamill himself coined the term, because even he didn't think it was "Luke SKywalker" he was playing. "And I will not be the last Jedi" Hardly the words of someone who is committed to the Jedi Order ending. He changed his mind at the end of the series because Yoda reminded him that failure is not dooming. And sure I know where its coming from and its just as silly a take coming out of his mouth as anyone else's. Since primary sources are so important: Apologies for the disjointed final one it was the best...also couldn't find a good version of the episode 9 scene. But those were all vital lessons, both for SWs and IRL. So bascially, it's what I said. A couple of verbal lessons and rubbing her hand with a leaf. Rey's supposed training from Luke was the first two clips. One of which was just the Jedi are bad, let me tell to the story of Kylo Ren. Yoda gave Luke more tutelage in their clip then Luke gave to Rey in his two 'lessons'. Luke's entire arc in the movie was refusing to train Rey because he had given up on the Jedi, and then thanks to Yoda, realizing he made a mistake after she left and going to try and make amends by helping at the end so that Jedi would have hope of preserving the order. Yoda literally told Luke what he needed to do for Rey, but he never got the chance. Rey got all her formative training from Leia. Yoda taught Luke different lessons from what he taught Rey but they were still vital and neccessary for their respective characters.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 8, 2020 1:33:11 GMT
Also, Noxluxe since you asked earlier for scenes showing Jedi fear to emotion: What's damning is how absolutley certain they are in their own ideology. Fear IS the Path to the Darkside...not a path...THE Path. Once you start down the dark path FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. You MUST train yourself to let go of everything you fear to loose. This wasn't an organization that believed in balance, temperance, and working through your problems, but an organization that was so certain their feces don't stink that they didn't consider any other flaws. And the movies constantly prove the lie to the Jedi ideology. Luke, Obi-Wan, Anakin/Vader, Rey were very angry scared people at times with a wealth of character flaws...but all of them came back from the dark...or resisted it. All of them knew that they weren't forever doomed bexcause they loved people or feared for them. That's funny, when Yoda points out that he can feel that little Anakin is absolutely terrified and Anakin refuses to acknowledge it, Mace Windu tells him "be mindful of your feelings". Not "your feelings make you a dirty little boy, begone!", or "You have feelings! You're going to be evil!" Be mindful of them. Try to understand them and rein them in when they cross a line. "Fear is the path to the dark side" isn't a statement that even vaguely implies that people who possess fear are going to be evil. It states that fear is the path, that indulging your fear leads you to other extreme negatives and eventually only pain. "Once you start down the path then it will forever dominate your destiny", i.e.: once you commit to letting your actions and decisions be ruled by fear, anger and hate then obviously it's going to have long-term repercussions for your life and those of others, whether you later decide to turn back or not. This is as true in real life as it demonstrably is for Anakin. Yoda said that fear, aggression and anger are the path to the dark side, and then says that Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. Then right after this clip, Luke faces the trial in the cave. Luke asks Yoda what's in the cave, and Yoda says only what you take with you. Then he told Luke that he wouldn't need his weapons, and Luke took the anyway. The entire trial is about learning to control his emotions, and not using the force out of fear and anger. Luke pretty much forgets every thing Yoda told him. He's scared and takes his weapons in, and that fear manifests in an image of Vader. Luke then draws his weapon first, not in defense, but to immediately attack, and then sees himself in Vader's helmet telling him that these kind of actions will lead him to the same place Vader is in. It's all about controlling emotions, and not letting them control you. The Jedi are clearly built to mirror martial arts principles, even in the way they dress. It's the same things they told us in martial arts class. Have a clear mind. Only use your art in self defense, not in anger. Learning to meditate to clear their minds. Having to teach other students before you can achieve higher rank. It's pretty much all the same. But no where does anyone say you can't feel emotions. Obi-wan says that he loves Anakin at one point. Yoda clearly looks sad when Padme dies. He wasn't some emotionless robot.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2020 1:34:38 GMT
First lesson was: The Jedi had it all wrong about the Force. Which is a lesson that didn't need teaching. Luke WAS the Jedi at this point, and he could teach any damn thing he wanted about the Force. No need to drag the old Jedi into it, except to, well, drag on them. Besides which, what was it he was taught about the Force again? The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.-Obi Won Kenobi For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.-Yoda Which makes Jake Skywalker's wangst against the Jedi all the more pointless, because the Jedi that taught him gave him a very similar lesson about the Force. Second lesson, equally pointless. Again he WAS the Jedi. If he thought the Jedi of the Old Republic failed, learn from it and take the Jedi in a new direction. "Pass on what you have learned" Except Jake Skywalker only learned how to mope, it seems. Third lesson: there was none. Certainly not "The Jedi are worth saving" In fact, that's precisely the OPPOSITE of what he was saying: And you know damned well what I mean about Jake Skywalker. Mark Hamill himself coined the term, because even he didn't think it was "Luke SKywalker" he was playing. "And I will not be the last Jedi" Hardly the words of someone who is committed to the Jedi Order ending. He changed his mind at the end of the series because Yoda reminded him that failure is not dooming. And sure I know where its coming from and its just as silly a take coming out of his mouth as anyone else's. If he said that at the very start of the movie, and agreed to train Rey instead of throwing his lightsaber away like it was a piece of garbage, you'd have a point. But that's not what happened. He spent virtually the entire movie wangsting and waiting to die. And this last minute stirring to actually do something (or maybe it was just the start of a fatal heart attack) came only after being slapped around by the One True Chosen One. That line has FA to do with what he taught Rey. To the contrary, it's when Mary Sue Palpatine showed Jake Skywalker the error of his ways and taught him he needed to hope again, or something.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 8, 2020 1:57:06 GMT
The logical inconsistencies and eating of cake in here sometimes still really bugs me.
"Rey is a perfect, flawless, 'mary sue', who does not need to learn anything and only can teach everyone else"
And
"Rey is a future Sith Lord in the making because of her beating up and robbing Luke, or because she hasn't had the proper training."
Are logical contradictions.
She can't be both flawless and the next ultimate evil.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 8, 2020 2:26:56 GMT
The logical inconsistencies and eating of cake in here sometimes still really bugs me. "Rey is a perfect, flawless, 'mary sue', who does not need to learn anything and only can teach everyone else" And "Rey is a future Sith Lord in the making because of her beating up and robbing Luke, or because she hasn't had the proper training." Are logical contradictions. She can't be both flawless and the next ultimate evil. She doesn't become the next ultimate evil BECAUSE she is flawless. By all reasonable logic, Jake Skywalker's apathetic irresponsibility left a very powerful Force user COMPLETELY UNTRAINED and susceptible to the Dark Side wandering the galaxy. It's only because she is Practically Perfect In Every Way that the galaxy wasn't doomed. Edit: If he was determined to be a bitter old man waiting to die, he could have at least taught her enough not to be a danger to herself and others. But then, he was perfectly willing to sit on his *ss let the galaxy burn and his family die, so maybe it simply didn't matter to him.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 8, 2020 2:27:57 GMT
You were THIS close to getting a like. I mean razor close. Its actually a fairly good point you raise and you bring up a lot of actual evidence countering my points. I suppose it depends on what you put emphasis on and which part of the Jedi quotes you think is more relevant. My only issue in what you bring up is that the Jedi Order didn't actually want to train Anakin and had very much of a 'begone child' attitude. Granted had they done so it probably would've been the most justifiable thing they could've done in the circumstances given their perspective...but they chose to train him...and didn't really know what to do with him once they got him. As far as the Rey stuff is concerned the only reason she didn't 'fall ot the dark side' right then and there is that Leia's death snapped her out of it. Not the behavior typical of a flawless mary sue. Well, you definitely get a like for not arguing like a stubborn ass. Can't exactly say the same, but I'm pretty confident in these points. Lucas based the Jedi on actual Buddhist and Zen philosophy, and most would agree that they have real merit and aren't just emotion-hating cults. Deciding whether or not to train someone like as a Jedi isn't a rejection or affirmation of their personal value, it's a decision of whether or not someone is emotionally capable of handling profound responsibility and power with rationality and discipline. And they could see that Anakin wasn't cut out for it because he was a messed-up little genius with attachment issues, however cute and lovable. The council ultimately accepted Anakin because Qui-Gon - who was more naturally in tune with the Force than any of them and was something of an outcast because his behavior often clashed with their current political agenda - felt that the Force demanded it and that it wasn't for the Jedi to refuse, and leveraged his influence over Obi-Wan to make it happen. In that sense, Anakin's training as a Jedi and fall were either just destiny or hippy Liam Neeson's vanity. But in practical terms the Jedi specifically unbent from their usual proven methods and tradition to make an exception for him, and it blew up in their faces exactly like they'd predicted it would, only much worse, because of outside influences. Their vain and complacent attachment to the political center of the galaxy allowed Darth Sidius to manipulate them and him, and that's what caused the issue. Not the Jedi code or how they train their younglings and padawans. And as for Rey, what I saw was that Leia snapped Kylo out of it when he was about to kill her, which she simply didn't notice until her lightsaber was sticking through his torso and she realized that he wasn't fighting back and she was suddenly in the process of killing him. At which point she instantly calmed down and started trying to rescue him. There was no moment of her struggling with her feelings, she went straight from realizing that the fight was over to giving medical attention. And the Jedi code clearly doesn't forbid killing someone who is about to execute you in a fight they started, or that would have become an issue before the Rise of Skywalker. And I can absolutely see her becoming evil. The plot in the movies never allows her to commit real moral mistakes, meaning that nothing in the trilogy whatsoever teaches her to check and balance her own righteousness once inevitably faced with truly difficult choices, while at the same time giving her more and more power to exercise her will. That's the same recipe for a mad totalitarian messiah complex that Daenerys went through in Game of Thrones.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 8, 2020 3:22:49 GMT
Jake Skywalker didn't teach her jack sh*t. Literally all he taught her was how the Jedi were failures. How they needed to end. How life sucks. He taught her NOTHING about how to use the Force. About how to sense it, communicate with it, trust in it, how to avoid the Dark Side. He taught her nothing of the dangers of fear, aggression, hatred. He didn't show her how to build a lightsaber. Edit: After beating up Jake Skywalker and robbing him, Rey was a Sith Lord waiting to happen. Microcasm of the macrocasm.... Anyways the lessons that Luke taught her in the Last Jedi are three fold. First Lesson: The Nature of the Force. Second Lesson: That Jedi Hubris and arrogance was as much responsible for their fall and the rise of the Empire as anything. They thought their perspective was the only one...that they were the judges and masters of the Force. What they ideally should be is protectors, guardians, and servants of the Will of the Force. Third Lesson: Despite their failures the Jedi still remain, at their core, a good organization worth saving. That their failures do not doom them to the dark path as much as the emotion they feared. And this is supported by the dialogue and the actions I rewatched and posted. I don't know what lessons 'Jake Skywalker' did and did not teach her, in the many times I've watched all the Star Wars movies and other Star Wars media I've never run into a 'Jake' Skywalker. Luke, Anakin, Rey (adopted) and Leia (by blood), Shmi...but no Jake's. Also, Noxluxe since you asked earlier for scenes showing Jedi fear to emotion: What's damning is how absolutley certain they are in their own ideology. Fear IS the Path to the Darkside...not a path...THE Path. Once you start down the dark path FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. You MUST train yourself to let go of everything you fear to loose. This wasn't an organization that believed in balance, temperance, and working through your problems, but an organization that was so certain their feces don't stink that they didn't consider any other flaws. And the movies constantly prove the lie to the Jedi ideology. Luke, Obi-Wan, Anakin/Vader, Rey were very angry scared people at times with a wealth of character flaws...but all of them came back from the dark...or resisted it. All of them knew that they weren't forever doomed bexcause they loved people or feared for them. The scenes show Yoda counselling to be CAREFULL of feelings, and trying to help Anakin deal with his fears. And they were right, since that is what Palpatine used to manipulate Anakin. "Be mindful of your fears" - always good advice. The Jedi code is basically to not let emotions rule your actions, otherwise one might commit the wrong or evil action. Also, the only reason Palpatine couldn't soul jump into Rey at the end of Rise of Skywalker is that she didn't strike him down in anger. She had to calm her emotions to reach out to the fallen Jedi and hear their voices. If she had struck Palpatine down in anger or fear, that would have been Sith power, and Palpatine would have jumped into her. So, Jedi controlling their emotions under Master Rey... probably still a thing. Agree that the hubris of the Jedi was responsible for their fall, and they indeed thought they were more powerful and insightful than in fact they were. Pretty sure they did not think their perspective was the only one since Count Dooku left their order as a Force user of his own free will - they were certainly aware of other perspectives on the Force. Also, pretty sure the Jedi saw themselves as protectors, guardians, and servants of the Force, and for the most part they were. But in their hubris, they did not foresee the attack on their order that came in the form of war that they were forced to fight. Their enemy the Sith exploited their ignorance and their complacency.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 8, 2020 4:11:28 GMT
You were THIS close to getting a like. I mean razor close. Its actually a fairly good point you raise and you bring up a lot of actual evidence countering my points. I suppose it depends on what you put emphasis on and which part of the Jedi quotes you think is more relevant. My only issue in what you bring up is that the Jedi Order didn't actually want to train Anakin and had very much of a 'begone child' attitude. Granted had they done so it probably would've been the most justifiable thing they could've done in the circumstances given their perspective...but they chose to train him...and didn't really know what to do with him once they got him. As far as the Rey stuff is concerned the only reason she didn't 'fall ot the dark side' right then and there is that Leia's death snapped her out of it. Not the behavior typical of a flawless mary sue. Well, you definitely get a like for not arguing like a stubborn ass. Can't exactly say the same, but I'm pretty confident in these points. Lucas based the Jedi on actual Buddhist and Zen philosophy, and most would agree that they have real merit and aren't just emotion-hating cults. Deciding whether or not to train someone like as a Jedi isn't a rejection or affirmation of their personal value, it's a decision of whether or not someone is emotionally capable of handling profound responsibility and power with rationality and discipline. And they could see that Anakin wasn't cut out for it because he was a messed-up little genius with attachment issues, however cute and lovable. The council ultimately accepted Anakin because Qui-Gon - who was more naturally in tune with the Force than any of them and was something of an outcast because his behavior often clashed with their current political agenda - felt that the Force demanded it and that it wasn't for the Jedi to refuse, and leveraged his influence over Obi-Wan to make it happen. In that sense, Anakin's training as a Jedi and fall were either just destiny or hippy Liam Neeson's vanity. But in practical terms the Jedi specifically unbent from their usual proven methods and tradition to make an exception for him, and it blew up in their faces exactly like they'd predicted it would, only much worse, because of outside influences. Their vain and complacent attachment to the political center of the galaxy allowed Darth Sidius to manipulate them and him, and that's what caused the issue. Not the Jedi code or how they train their younglings and padawans. And as for Rey, what I saw was that Leia snapped Kylo out of it when he was about to kill her, which she simply didn't notice until her lightsaber was sticking through his torso and she realized that he wasn't fighting back and she was suddenly in the process of killing him. At which point she instantly calmed down and started trying to rescue him. There was no moment of her struggling with her feelings, she went straight from realizing that the fight was over to giving medical attention. And the Jedi code clearly doesn't forbid killing someone who is about to execute you in a fight they started, or that would have become an issue before the Rise of Skywalker. And I can absolutely see her becoming evil. The plot in the movies never allows her to commit real moral mistakes, meaning that nothing in the trilogy whatsoever teaches her to check and balance her own righteousness once inevitably faced with truly difficult choices, while at the same time giving her more and more power to exercise her will. That's the same recipe for a mad totalitarian messiah complex that Daenerys went through in Game of Thrones. Well I have my issues with Buddhism too. I mean calling them an emotion hating cult might be a little extreme but I kind of always thought of the Jedi to be extremist buddhists. Though you are making me wonder if I have perhaps been a LITTLE hard on them. I just see what you have identified as the political corruptness of the Jedi being largely apart of the same problem: They got too powerful, too unchecked, and as a result of basically patting themslves on the back for centuries they became convinced in their own dogma. Its fascinating you bring up Daenarys when talking about Rey because had Rey broke bad in TROS it would've essentially been two powerful women characters to do that in the same year. And I suppose there is a lot of simularity in the two characters...except Rey never had the force of destiny behind her . Either way I think we just have to disagree on her not facing any big moral dillemas during her journey. IMO her biggest problems have always been herself. Though you are right moving forward her main potential for badness comes from no one being around to check her...much like with the Jedi and Luke. Unless some theories I've heard end up being correct and Ezra is out there building his own version of the Jedi Order.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 8, 2020 5:00:22 GMT
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 8, 2020 5:08:01 GMT
You woulda thought Papa Palpatine would just use that good Force Healing to grow back Anakin's arms, legs, and skin.... nope! That's just dishonest.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 8, 2020 5:17:38 GMT
You woulda thought Papa Palpatine would just used that good Force Healing to grow back Anakin's arms, legs, and skin.... nope! That's just dishonest. Force Healing is a lightside exclusive ability unless Palpatine plans to use mods.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 8, 2020 5:22:59 GMT
You woulda thought Papa Palpatine would just used that good Force Healing to grow back Anakin's arms, legs, and skin.... nope! That's just dishonest. Force Healing is a lightside exclusive ability unless Palpatine plans to use mods. You don't think Palpatine has mods?
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 8, 2020 5:32:51 GMT
Force Healing is a lightside exclusive ability unless Palpatine plans to use mods. You don't think Palpatine has mods? EA will range ban his ass faster than he can say "Unlimited Powaah".
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 8, 2020 5:41:39 GMT
You don't think Palpatine has mods? EA will range ban his ass faster than he can say "Unlimited Powaah". "IT IS THUSLY DECLARED THAT FORCE HEALING IS FOR NOW AND EVERMORE A LIGHT SIDE ONLY ABILITY!!!" Disney Exec: Hey... what about a movie where a Sith Lord gains political power by healing the sick. That sounds interesting, right? "IT IS THUSLY DECLARED THAT FORCE HEALING IS FOR NOW AND EVERMORE A LIGHT SIDE ONLY ABILITY, EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF CERTAIN HERETOFORE UNPUBLISHED MATERIALS THAT MAY RECONTEXTUALIZE ITS USAGE AS PART OF A NEFARIOUS SCHEME!!!"
Palpatine: Unlimited Powaah! Mace: Wow, I feel great - grew my arm back and everything! You're Ok in my book. Anakin, go get this guy an Empire!
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 8, 2020 7:32:05 GMT
Well I have my issues with Buddhism too. I mean calling them an emotion hating cult might be a little extreme but I kind of always thought of the Jedi to be extremist buddhists. Though you are making me wonder if I have perhaps been a LITTLE hard on them. I just see what you have identified as the political corruptness of the Jedi being largely apart of the same problem: They got too powerful, too unchecked, and as a result of basically patting themslves on the back for centuries they became convinced in their own dogma. Its fascinating you bring up Daenarys when talking about Rey because had Rey broke bad in TROS it would've essentially been two powerful women characters to do that in the same year. And I suppose there is a lot of simularity in the two characters...except Rey never had the force of destiny behind her . Either way I think we just have to disagree on her not facing any big moral dillemas during her journey. IMO her biggest problems have always been herself. Though you are right moving forward her main potential for badness comes from no one being around to check her...much like with the Jedi and Luke. Unless some theories I've heard end up being correct and Ezra is out there building his own version of the Jedi Order. Maybe you're unusually calm and tempered by nature, and don't really see the point. I've had pretty significant temperamental issues, and while I didn't actually need those kinds of teachings to eventually get it under control in real life I can certainly see that I would have been better off growing up with them. Everyone I know with similar issues who have engaged in regular meditation of the exact kind that the Jedi encourage have reported some kind of improvement from it. And frankly, if some order was training people to fight with superpowers and stick their noses in politics and crises all over the world then I'd definitely want kickass mindfulness courses and exceptionally high standards for emotional stability to be part of that training process. And being too big, powerful and unchecked is a problem for every kind of organization in the world. Nothing survives that without corruption of some kind. I still don't see how that points to serious flaws in the fundamental Jedi philosophy. It wouldn't exactly have been a coincidence for Rey's and Daenerys' developments to mirror each other. It's the current narrative in popular media. "Let nothing whatsoever stand in the way of the woman, and trust that she will do the right thing because she's obviously a good person." Except that learning from real mistakes and being pushed back by reality and forced to do things you don't want to and learning how to deal with it is how people grow strong, wise and good in real life. When Luke disobeyed Yoda and Obi-Wan and abandoned his training for fear of losing his friends, and arrogantly forced a confrontation with Darth Vader, he lost his hand for it and learned things he wasn't prepared to hear, which caused him immense grief and confusion. The next time we saw him he was almost an entirely different person, having spent time reflecting on and internalizing those lessons and becoming a more mature and focused hero because of it. Every likable and respected fictional hero who is supposed to seem even remotely human has an arc like that. Tony Stark realizing the havoc he has been causing around the world while just riding the success of his genius. Aragorn understanding the strength and honor he always overlooked in his fellow men and accepting his responsibility to lead them as king. Rey has nothing of the sort. Everything she needed to complete her journey was abilities and wisdom she already possessed, whether she knew it or not. All her views and instincts were the right ones, and all her values were ultimately proven to be correct. Everyone who thought they had something to teach her turned out to need to learn from her instead, and everything she tried to do worked out well for everybody, even when she made mistakes. The only thing she learned over the course of the trilogy was to believe in herself and her own feelings no matter what, and that's the sort of mindset that easily gets corrupted. The writers of Game of Thrones understood that, even though their attempt to execute it was seriously rushed and flawed. Disney clearly doesn't.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 8, 2020 8:35:19 GMT
Well I have my issues with Buddhism too. I mean calling them an emotion hating cult might be a little extreme but I kind of always thought of the Jedi to be extremist buddhists. Though you are making me wonder if I have perhaps been a LITTLE hard on them. I just see what you have identified as the political corruptness of the Jedi being largely apart of the same problem: They got too powerful, too unchecked, and as a result of basically patting themslves on the back for centuries they became convinced in their own dogma. Its fascinating you bring up Daenarys when talking about Rey because had Rey broke bad in TROS it would've essentially been two powerful women characters to do that in the same year. And I suppose there is a lot of simularity in the two characters...except Rey never had the force of destiny behind her . Either way I think we just have to disagree on her not facing any big moral dillemas during her journey. IMO her biggest problems have always been herself. Though you are right moving forward her main potential for badness comes from no one being around to check her...much like with the Jedi and Luke. Unless some theories I've heard end up being correct and Ezra is out there building his own version of the Jedi Order. Maybe you're unusually calm and tempered by nature, and don't really see the point. I've had pretty significant temperamental issues, and while I didn't actually need those kinds of teachings to eventually get it under control in real life I can certainly see that I would have been better off growing up with them. Everyone I know with similar issues who have engaged in regular meditation of the exact kind that the Jedi encourage have reported some kind of improvement from it. And frankly, if some order was training people to fight with superpowers and stick their noses in politics and crises all over the world then I'd definitely want kickass mindfulness courses and exceptionally high standards for emotional stability to be part of that training process. And being too big, powerful and unchecked is a problem for every kind of organization in the world. Nothing survives that without corruption of some kind. I still don't see how that points to serious flaws in the fundamental Jedi philosophy. It wouldn't exactly have been a coincidence for Rey's and Daenerys' developments to mirror each other. It's the current narrative in popular media. "Let nothing whatsoever stand in the way of the woman, and trust that she will do the right thing because she's obviously a good person." Except that learning from real mistakes and being pushed back by reality and forced to do things you don't want to and learning how to deal with it is how people grow strong, wise and good in real life. When Luke disobeyed Yoda and Obi-Wan and abandoned his training for fear of losing his friends, and arrogantly forced a confrontation with Darth Vader, he lost his hand for it and learned things he wasn't prepared to hear, which caused him immense grief and confusion. The next time we saw him he was almost an entirely different person, having spent time reflecting on and internalizing those lessons and becoming a more mature and focused hero because of it. Every likable and respected fictional hero who is supposed to seem even remotely human has an arc like that. Tony Stark realizing the havoc he has been causing around the world while just riding the success of his genius. Aragorn understanding the strength and honor he always overlooked in his fellow men and accepting his responsibility to lead them as king. Rey has nothing of the sort. Everything she needed to complete her journey was abilities and wisdom she already possessed, whether she knew it or not. All her views and instincts were the right ones, and all her values were ultimately proven to be correct. Everyone who thought they had something to teach her turned out to need to learn from her instead, and everything she tried to do worked out well for everybody, even when she made mistakes. The only thing she learned over the course of the trilogy was to believe in herself and her own feelings no matter what, and that's the sort of mindset that easily gets corrupted. The writers of Game of Thrones understood that, even though their attempt to execute it was seriously rushed and flawed. Disney clearly doesn't. TFA - Gets caught by Kylo - Gets knocked out by Kylo, before Finn loses saber duel to Kylo TLJ - Gets tortured into revealing Luke's location - Tries to turn Kylo (this is after being a Force user for A WEEK), and instead makes him the Supreme Leader RoS - Because she keeps taking Skype calls with abusive boyfriend, Kylo, gives away position twice - Almost kills Chewie - Almost loses to Kylo in combat, but his mom saves her - Stands in front of Palpatine for drama, and, like, everyone knows you aren't supposed to do that Sure, it all worked out in the end *shrug* Yoda is the real inconsistent one that support your claim though: ESB: Luke, you must complete the training... Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you chose the quick and easy path, as Veder did, you will become an agent of evil. TLJ: That library contains nothing the girl Rey does not already possess. Also, the sacred texts she stole.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 8, 2020 8:43:30 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Feb 8, 2020 8:50:35 GMT
Well I have my issues with Buddhism too. I mean calling them an emotion hating cult might be a little extreme but I kind of always thought of the Jedi to be extremist buddhists. Though you are making me wonder if I have perhaps been a LITTLE hard on them. I just see what you have identified as the political corruptness of the Jedi being largely apart of the same problem: They got too powerful, too unchecked, and as a result of basically patting themslves on the back for centuries they became convinced in their own dogma. Its fascinating you bring up Daenarys when talking about Rey because had Rey broke bad in TROS it would've essentially been two powerful women characters to do that in the same year. And I suppose there is a lot of simularity in the two characters...except Rey never had the force of destiny behind her . Either way I think we just have to disagree on her not facing any big moral dillemas during her journey. IMO her biggest problems have always been herself. Though you are right moving forward her main potential for badness comes from no one being around to check her...much like with the Jedi and Luke. Unless some theories I've heard end up being correct and Ezra is out there building his own version of the Jedi Order. Maybe you're unusually calm and tempered by nature, and don't really see the point. I've had pretty significant temperamental issues, and while I didn't actually need those kinds of teachings to eventually get it under control in real life I can certainly see that I would have been better off growing up with them. Everyone I know with similar issues who have engaged in regular meditation of the exact kind that the Jedi encourage have reported some kind of improvement from it. And frankly, if some order was training people to fight with superpowers and stick their noses in politics and crises all over the world then I'd definitely want kickass mindfulness courses and exceptionally high standards for emotional stability to be part of that training process. And being too big, powerful and unchecked is a problem for every kind of organization in the world. Nothing survives that without corruption of some kind. I still don't see how that points to serious flaws in the fundamental Jedi philosophy. It wouldn't exactly have been a coincidence for Rey's and Daenerys' developments to mirror each other. It's the current narrative in popular media. "Let nothing whatsoever stand in the way of the woman, and trust that she will do the right thing because she's obviously a good person." Except that learning from real mistakes and being pushed back by reality and forced to do things you don't want to and learning how to deal with it is how people grow strong, wise and good in real life. When Luke disobeyed Yoda and Obi-Wan and abandoned his training for fear of losing his friends, and arrogantly forced a confrontation with Darth Vader, he lost his hand for it and learned things he wasn't prepared to hear, which caused him immense grief and confusion. The next time we saw him he was almost an entirely different person, having spent time reflecting on and internalizing those lessons and becoming a more mature and focused hero because of it. Every likable and respected fictional hero who is supposed to seem even remotely human has an arc like that. Tony Stark realizing the havoc he has been causing around the world while just riding the success of his genius. Aragorn understanding the strength and honor he always overlooked in his fellow men and accepting his responsibility to lead them as king. Rey has nothing of the sort. Everything she needed to complete her journey was abilities and wisdom she already possessed, whether she knew it or not. All her views and instincts were the right ones, and all her values were ultimately proven to be correct. Everyone who thought they had something to teach her turned out to need to learn from her instead, and everything she tried to do worked out well for everybody, even when she made mistakes. The only thing she learned over the course of the trilogy was to believe in herself and her own feelings no matter what, and that's the sort of mindset that easily gets corrupted. The writers of Game of Thrones understood that, even though their attempt to execute it was seriously rushed and flawed. Disney clearly doesn't. I'm not actually that calm and even tempered. I think most of my antics around here (and on facebook) probably blows that theory all to hell. . Actually I think that was the main problem that I had and why I am probably a little biased against the Jedi is because I don't see how their perspective was very helpful to me...especially when I was a confused angsty teen who had maybe a bit in common with Anakin...just without the genocidal tendencies. And why I view their perspective as being a little on the unhealthy side. Now looking back I do wonder on how much I was interpreting their actions through that lense, but it is still there. And sure classes on having mental and emotional discipline makes perfect sense for a Force wielder but to me that is not what the Jedi doing. Obiously we disagree on this point but I still don't see that much about controlling your emotions from the Jedi. I am prepared to admit that I am being too harsh but I still haven't connected those dots yet. It always seemed a little weird to me that Luke was an entirely different person between the two. I mean sure I get it but on the flip side you have Rey who is clearly going through the same issues she was at the end of TLJ and still has cooking to do. ...that's a really weird look at what is going on in popular media. I mean as a general rule I'm not even sure you are wrong but it seems really weird to apply that logic to both of these women's character arc. Especially when they are shown to be wrong repeatedly throughout their respective arcs...Daenarys a lot more spectacularly so. Actually come to think of it when it comes to Danny T I find her arc a lot more fascinating in light of the whole 'third wave feminist women> men' stuff which is going on in some circles. Here we have an EXTREMLY powerful woman who is a liberator, a queen, don't need no man to tell her what to do and has an iron will to do the right thing...and yet this character turns into Hitler of Westeros. In light of some modern political agendas its an important message: Even beautiful well meaning women can still turn into Catherine the Great. I think it would be a good idea to stay away from generalities. I mean yes I know there is a general perception around some circles that Rey is this flawless uninteresting dull Mary Sue type character but I also know plenty of people who would vehemently disagree with that assessment. Rey actually means a lot to a lot of people. And personal tastes aside I find Rey to be a lot more fleshed out, well written, and certainly likable then the MCU Tony Stark (though his arc does look a lot better in light of his death). As far as it goes, I am trying not to just retread the same ole ground over and over again but I just flat disagree that Rey has 'nothing of the sort'. Almost none of her base instincts and wisdom she possessed in the beginning of TFA proved to be the right one at the end. I mean at the risk of this just being because I have seen Return of the Jedi probably 30 + times dulling the experience I just didn't really feel that concerned that Luke would fall to the darkside...I was terrified watching TROS that Rey would. That she would give into her base instincts and take her grandad up on his offer...which she almost did which makes me think she would've if Palpatine showed up in TFA. Sure she was a good person with many admirable qualities (hence why I just find her so darn likable) but she also had huge issues which persisted throughout the entire trilogy and almost got her killed in TLJ and almost got her possessed in TROS. Rey's arc was hella compelling and hella relatable. And as far as her 'teaching' everyone around her the best mentor student relationships...at least in fiction...tend to be give and take. Luke learned a lot from her and she learned alot from him. Edit: I just realized that IS what the Jedi were doing. They just weren't always the best at it. Edit 2: (Yes I am going here) I actually find Rey more reletable and better written then OT Luke. Granted again at the risk of just because I am very familiar with the OT at this point.
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