Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,016 Likes: 3,551
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,551
Noxluxe
2,016
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 8, 2020 10:21:33 GMT
TFA - Gets caught by Kylo - Gets knocked out by Kylo, before Finn loses saber duel to Kylo TLJ - Gets tortured into revealing Luke's location - Tries to turn Kylo (this is after being a Force user for A WEEK), and instead makes him the Supreme Leader RoS - Because she keeps taking Skype calls with abusive boyfriend, Kylo, gives away position twice - Almost kills Chewie - Almost loses to Kylo in combat, but his mom saves her - Stands in front of Palpatine for drama, and, like, everyone knows you aren't supposed to do that Sure, it all worked out in the end *shrug* Yoda is the real inconsistent one that support your claim though: ESB: Luke, you must complete the training... Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you chose the quick and easy path, as Veder did, you will become an agent of evil. TLJ: That library contains nothing the girl Rey does not already possess. Also, the sacred texts she stole. TFA: -If Rey hadn't gotten herself caught by Kylo then Finn wouldn't have explained and helped the Resistance destroy Starkiller Base, and the First Order would have won. And Rey effectively escapes on her own while learning fun and useful new abilities on the way. She loses nothing whatsoever and no damage is done from him capturing her at all. Nothing but good comes from it, even though running alone out into the forest for no reason was an idiotic and nonsensical thing for her to do. -Is knocked out exactly long enough for Finn to show up with her new lightsaber and make a show of defending her before standing up and beating Kylo herself without taking a scratch. Kylo's slash across his back has no lasting impact on Finn, and she saves his life. Nobody lost anything from her getting knocked out. TLJ: -Nothing is done with Snoke finding out Luke's location, it turns out not to even be an inconvenience. -Her attempt to turn Kylo directly results in the death of the much more powerful and intelligent Snoke. Kylo being Supreme Leader is effectively a handicap for the First Order, and the bond she builds with him helps her successfully turn him in the next movie anyway. And she still has time to rescue all her friends. Her sneaking aboard the First Order flagship in order to turn Kylo results in massive gain and no loss for the protagonists even though it was a stupid and naive and time-wasting move on her part in theory. RoS: -Kylo is the one who initiates the calls, and we've no reason to believe that she can refuse or turn them off at will. Him finding the group on that basis is never framed as in any way being her fault, and him finding them also never results in anything worse than a rushed escape which in the first case funnels the protagonists to exactly where they need to be to continue their search. -Is never even in danger of killing Chewie, and only thinks she might have because of a complete accident that, again, could not in any reasonable way be construed as her fault. -Her "almost losing" and almost killing him in response, and then healing him, is how she triggers both Kylo's turn to the light and her own eventual resurrection. Even if Leia's death could be viewed as happening because Rey was losing the fight that still doesn't involve any choice on Rey's part, and the movie certainly doesn't make a point of drawing that connection. -Successfully kills Palpatine by standing dramatically in front of him with two lightsabers. Soo... I'm not actually that calm and even tempered. I think most of my antics around here (and on facebook) probably blows that theory all to hell. . Actually I think that was the main problem that I had and why I am probably a little biased against the Jedi is because I don't see how their perspective was very helpful to me...especially when I was a confused angsty teen who had maybe a bit in common with Anakin...just without the genocidal tendencies. And why I view their perspective as being a little on the unhealthy side. Now looking back I do wonder on how much I was interpreting their actions through that lense, but it is still there. And sure classes on having mental and emotional discipline makes perfect sense for a Force wielder but to me that is not what the Jedi doing. Obiously we disagree on this point but I still don't see that much about controlling your emotions from the Jedi. I am prepared to admit that I am being too harsh but I still haven't connected those dots yet. It always seemed a little weird to me that Luke was an entirely different person between the two. I mean sure I get it but on the flip side you have Rey who is clearly going through the same issues she was at the end of TLJ and still has cooking to do. ...that's a really weird look at what is going on in popular media. I mean as a general rule I'm not even sure you are wrong but it seems really weird to apply that logic to both of these women's character arc. Especially when they are shown to be wrong repeatedly throughout their respective arcs...Daenarys a lot more spectacularly so. Actually come to think of it when it comes to Danny T I find her arc a lot more fascinating in light of the whole 'third wave feminist women> men' stuff which is going on in some circles. Here we have an EXTREMLY powerful woman who is a liberator, a queen, don't need no man to tell her what to do and has an iron will to do the right thing...and yet this character turns into Hitler of Westeros. In light of some modern political agendas its an important message: Even beautiful well meaning women can still turn into Catherine the Great. I think it would be a good idea to stay away from generalities. I mean yes I know there is a general perception around some circles that Rey is this flawless uninteresting dull Mary Sue type character but I also know plenty of people who would vehemently disagree with that assessment. Rey actually means a lot to a lot of people. And personal tastes aside I find Rey to be a lot more fleshed out, well written, and certainly likable then the MCU Tony Stark (though his arc does look a lot better in light of his death). As far as it goes, I am trying not to just retread the same ole ground over and over again but I just flat disagree that Rey has 'nothing of the sort'. Almost none of her base instincts and wisdom she possessed in the beginning of TFA proved to be the right one at the end. I mean at the risk of this just being because I have seen Return of the Jedi probably 30 + times dulling the experience I just didn't really feel that concerned that Luke would fall to the darkside...I was terrified watching TROS that Rey would. That she would give into her base instincts and take her grandad up on his offer...which she almost did which makes me think she would've if Palpatine showed up in TFA. Sure she was a good person with many admirable qualities (hence why I just find her so darn likable) but she also had huge issues which persisted throughout the entire trilogy and almost got her killed in TLJ and almost got her possessed in TROS. Rey's arc was hella compelling and hella relatable. And as far as her 'teaching' everyone around her the best mentor student relationships...at least in fiction...tend to be give and take. Luke learned a lot from her and she learned alot from him. Edit: I just realized that IS what the Jedi were doing. They just weren't always the best at it. Edit 2: (Yes I am going here) I actually find Rey more reletable and better written then OT Luke. Granted again at the risk of just because I am very familiar with the OT at this point. Well, in my experience controlling your emotions comes down to, first of all, making sure not to act on them out of hand. Then you reflect on where they come from and what is causing them. Then you put that into perspective. Often done through quiet reflection and meditation or in conversation with someone else you trust who will listen and can give a less biased view. All things that are heavily encouraged within the Jedi order. Okay. How specifically have Rey's values and view of the world changed between The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker? Which feelings or instincts or approaches to anything did she start out with that turned out not to be exactly what was called for? And what exactly did she learn from Luke, that she didn't teach him herself first? I completely agree, Rey as originally presented in The Force Awakens is a more fleshed-out and sympathetic character than Luke is in A New Hope. The farmboy eager for adventure has been a tired cliche for a long time, and our tastes in protagonists have moved a lot since the eighties. And her introduction really is well-written. But that doesn't change that Luke fights and struggles for every advantage he gains, undergoes a dramatically satisfying character arc and learns valuable lessons over the course of his journey, while Rey remains mostly static and simply manifests all the powers and abilities and all the understanding she needs naturally. Which makes her a pretty shitty role model for us human beings who occasionally turn out not to be perfect and kind of have to deal with that.
|
|
Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
inherit
658
0
3,624
Obadiah
2,677
August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
|
Post by Obadiah on Feb 8, 2020 15:47:17 GMT
TFA - Gets caught by Kylo - Gets knocked out by Kylo, before Finn loses saber duel to Kylo TLJ - Gets tortured into revealing Luke's location - Tries to turn Kylo (this is after being a Force user for A WEEK), and instead makes him the Supreme Leader RoS - Because she keeps taking Skype calls with abusive boyfriend, Kylo, gives away position twice - Almost kills Chewie - Almost loses to Kylo in combat, but his mom saves her - Stands in front of Palpatine for drama, and, like, everyone knows you aren't supposed to do that Sure, it all worked out in the end *shrug* Yoda is the real inconsistent one that support your claim though: ESB: Luke, you must complete the training... Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you chose the quick and easy path, as Veder did, you will become an agent of evil. TLJ: That library contains nothing the girl Rey does not already possess. Also, the sacred texts she stole. TFA: -If Rey hadn't gotten herself caught by Kylo then Finn wouldn't have explained and helped the Resistance destroy Starkiller Base, and the First Order would have won. And Rey effectively escapes on her own while learning fun and useful new abilities on the way. She loses nothing whatsoever and no damage is done from him capturing her at all. Nothing but good comes from it, even though running alone out into the forest for no reason was an idiotic and nonsensical thing for her to do. -Is knocked out exactly long enough for Finn to show up with her new lightsaber and make a show of defending her before standing up and beating Kylo herself without taking a scratch. Kylo's slash across his back has no lasting impact on Finn, and she saves his life. Nobody lost anything from her getting knocked out. TLJ: -Nothing is done with Snoke finding out Luke's location, it turns out not to even be an inconvenience. -Her attempt to turn Kylo directly results in the death of the much more powerful and intelligent Snoke. Kylo being Supreme Leader is effectively a handicap for the First Order, and the bond she builds with him helps her successfully turn him in the next movie anyway. And she still has time to rescue all her friends. Her sneaking aboard the First Order flagship in order to turn Kylo results in massive gain and no loss for the protagonists even though it was a stupid and naive and time-wasting move on her part in theory. RoS: -Kylo is the one who initiates the calls, and we've no reason to believe that she can refuse or turn them off at will. Him finding the group on that basis is never framed as in any way being her fault, and him finding them also never results in anything worse than a rushed escape which in the first case funnels the protagonists to exactly where they need to be to continue their search. -Is never even in danger of killing Chewie, and only thinks she might have because of a complete accident that, again, could not in any reasonable way be construed as her fault. -Her "almost losing" and almost killing him in response, and then healing him, is how she triggers both Kylo's turn to the light and her own eventual resurrection. Even if Leia's death could be viewed as happening because Rey was losing the fight that still doesn't involve any choice on Rey's part, and the movie certainly doesn't make a point of drawing that connection. -Successfully kills Palpatine by standing dramatically in front of him with two lightsabers. Soo... ... … so like I said, sure, it worked out for her in the end. Unlike what you said, her views and instincts were NOT all the right ones (TLJ allowing herself to be mind interrogated, getting Kylo to clear his conflict and fully ascend to the dark side, and RoS almost killing Chewie are not vindications of her instincts), and she does learn from others (RoS: Force-ghost Luke gets her to leave island).
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,016 Likes: 3,551
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,551
Noxluxe
2,016
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 8, 2020 17:20:18 GMT
… so like I said, sure, it worked out for her in the end. Unlike what you said, her views and instincts were NOT all the right ones (TLJ allowing herself to be mind interrogated, getting Kylo to clear his conflict and fully ascend to the dark side, and RoS almost killing Chewie are not vindications of her instincts), and she does learn from others (RoS: Force-ghost Luke gets her to leave island). They don't work out for her "in the end". They literally just work out, somehow. All her mistakes improve the situation. Narratively speaking, she functions more like a walking deus ex machina than a character. There's no scene of her reflecting on a big mistake or grave misjudgment that caused trouble and from which she must mature to become a more effective hero, because she never makes one that even remotely warrants it. What do you mean her views and instincts "weren't the right ones for allowing herself to be mind interrogated" for information that never turns out to matter? It doesn't matter. It didn't hurt anyone, and her causing it to happen ultimately just resulted in Snoke's death, which was brilliant for her and all her friends. And the same goes for her getting frustrated during a stupid tug of war over what she thinks is her friend's life. Which inexplicably is now all it takes to activate force lightning. Reminding people of that fact isn't going to help you convince anyone that these movies are well-written, for future reference. And no, sorry, Kylo Ren "fully ascended to the dark side" when he almost murdered both his parents in cold blood one after the other over the course of two days. Him killing his evil and more competent boss and trying to take his place is frankly a step down from that, and the fact that it's objectively a huge break for the Resistance makes it silly to think of it as a real failure on Rey's part. And she's whooping with joy triple-killing Tie-fighters with the Falcon's guns ten minutes later and never spends another second worrying about it, so don't give me anything about it being a huge failure "for her". And she accomplishes her goal of turning Kylo in the next movie anyway. And what the hell kind of 60's logic is it anyway, for an evil person she's only known for two days' own moral failures to be her fault just for not perfectly preventing them? Isn't that the exact kind of thinking her character is supposed to stand against? That when a man commits a crime it's somehow partially his women's fault for not having preemptively screwed all the evil out of him? Yeah, no thanks. "Miraculous redeeming touch takes a little while to set in." isn't submissible as a flaw on the character sheet. I literally don't remember a word from her conversation with Luke on that island in Rise of Skywalker. If you do then I'd love to hear exactly what he teaches her and why she needs to hear it to leave, and we'll see if it really says anything meaningful about her character.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Sept 29, 2024 21:59:03 GMT
35,117
colfoley
18,363
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Feb 8, 2020 19:38:54 GMT
TFA - Gets caught by Kylo - Gets knocked out by Kylo, before Finn loses saber duel to Kylo TLJ - Gets tortured into revealing Luke's location - Tries to turn Kylo (this is after being a Force user for A WEEK), and instead makes him the Supreme Leader RoS - Because she keeps taking Skype calls with abusive boyfriend, Kylo, gives away position twice - Almost kills Chewie - Almost loses to Kylo in combat, but his mom saves her - Stands in front of Palpatine for drama, and, like, everyone knows you aren't supposed to do that Sure, it all worked out in the end *shrug* Yoda is the real inconsistent one that support your claim though: ESB: Luke, you must complete the training... Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you chose the quick and easy path, as Veder did, you will become an agent of evil. TLJ: That library contains nothing the girl Rey does not already possess. Also, the sacred texts she stole. TFA: -If Rey hadn't gotten herself caught by Kylo then Finn wouldn't have explained and helped the Resistance destroy Starkiller Base, and the First Order would have won. And Rey effectively escapes on her own while learning fun and useful new abilities on the way. She loses nothing whatsoever and no damage is done from him capturing her at all. Nothing but good comes from it, even though running alone out into the forest for no reason was an idiotic and nonsensical thing for her to do. -Is knocked out exactly long enough for Finn to show up with her new lightsaber and make a show of defending her before standing up and beating Kylo herself without taking a scratch. Kylo's slash across his back has no lasting impact on Finn, and she saves his life. Nobody lost anything from her getting knocked out. TLJ: -Nothing is done with Snoke finding out Luke's location, it turns out not to even be an inconvenience. -Her attempt to turn Kylo directly results in the death of the much more powerful and intelligent Snoke. Kylo being Supreme Leader is effectively a handicap for the First Order, and the bond she builds with him helps her successfully turn him in the next movie anyway. And she still has time to rescue all her friends. Her sneaking aboard the First Order flagship in order to turn Kylo results in massive gain and no loss for the protagonists even though it was a stupid and naive and time-wasting move on her part in theory. RoS: -Kylo is the one who initiates the calls, and we've no reason to believe that she can refuse or turn them off at will. Him finding the group on that basis is never framed as in any way being her fault, and him finding them also never results in anything worse than a rushed escape which in the first case funnels the protagonists to exactly where they need to be to continue their search. -Is never even in danger of killing Chewie, and only thinks she might have because of a complete accident that, again, could not in any reasonable way be construed as her fault. -Her "almost losing" and almost killing him in response, and then healing him, is how she triggers both Kylo's turn to the light and her own eventual resurrection. Even if Leia's death could be viewed as happening because Rey was losing the fight that still doesn't involve any choice on Rey's part, and the movie certainly doesn't make a point of drawing that connection. -Successfully kills Palpatine by standing dramatically in front of him with two lightsabers. Soo... I'm not actually that calm and even tempered. I think most of my antics around here (and on facebook) probably blows that theory all to hell. . Actually I think that was the main problem that I had and why I am probably a little biased against the Jedi is because I don't see how their perspective was very helpful to me...especially when I was a confused angsty teen who had maybe a bit in common with Anakin...just without the genocidal tendencies. And why I view their perspective as being a little on the unhealthy side. Now looking back I do wonder on how much I was interpreting their actions through that lense, but it is still there. And sure classes on having mental and emotional discipline makes perfect sense for a Force wielder but to me that is not what the Jedi doing. Obiously we disagree on this point but I still don't see that much about controlling your emotions from the Jedi. I am prepared to admit that I am being too harsh but I still haven't connected those dots yet. It always seemed a little weird to me that Luke was an entirely different person between the two. I mean sure I get it but on the flip side you have Rey who is clearly going through the same issues she was at the end of TLJ and still has cooking to do. ...that's a really weird look at what is going on in popular media. I mean as a general rule I'm not even sure you are wrong but it seems really weird to apply that logic to both of these women's character arc. Especially when they are shown to be wrong repeatedly throughout their respective arcs...Daenarys a lot more spectacularly so. Actually come to think of it when it comes to Danny T I find her arc a lot more fascinating in light of the whole 'third wave feminist women> men' stuff which is going on in some circles. Here we have an EXTREMLY powerful woman who is a liberator, a queen, don't need no man to tell her what to do and has an iron will to do the right thing...and yet this character turns into Hitler of Westeros. In light of some modern political agendas its an important message: Even beautiful well meaning women can still turn into Catherine the Great. I think it would be a good idea to stay away from generalities. I mean yes I know there is a general perception around some circles that Rey is this flawless uninteresting dull Mary Sue type character but I also know plenty of people who would vehemently disagree with that assessment. Rey actually means a lot to a lot of people. And personal tastes aside I find Rey to be a lot more fleshed out, well written, and certainly likable then the MCU Tony Stark (though his arc does look a lot better in light of his death). As far as it goes, I am trying not to just retread the same ole ground over and over again but I just flat disagree that Rey has 'nothing of the sort'. Almost none of her base instincts and wisdom she possessed in the beginning of TFA proved to be the right one at the end. I mean at the risk of this just being because I have seen Return of the Jedi probably 30 + times dulling the experience I just didn't really feel that concerned that Luke would fall to the darkside...I was terrified watching TROS that Rey would. That she would give into her base instincts and take her grandad up on his offer...which she almost did which makes me think she would've if Palpatine showed up in TFA. Sure she was a good person with many admirable qualities (hence why I just find her so darn likable) but she also had huge issues which persisted throughout the entire trilogy and almost got her killed in TLJ and almost got her possessed in TROS. Rey's arc was hella compelling and hella relatable. And as far as her 'teaching' everyone around her the best mentor student relationships...at least in fiction...tend to be give and take. Luke learned a lot from her and she learned alot from him. Edit: I just realized that IS what the Jedi were doing. They just weren't always the best at it. Edit 2: (Yes I am going here) I actually find Rey more reletable and better written then OT Luke. Granted again at the risk of just because I am very familiar with the OT at this point. Well, in my experience controlling your emotions comes down to, first of all, making sure not to act on them out of hand. Then you reflect on where they come from and what is causing them. Then you put that into perspective. Often done through quiet reflection and meditation or in conversation with someone else you trust who will listen and can give a less biased view. All things that are heavily encouraged within the Jedi order. Okay. How specifically have Rey's values and view of the world changed between The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker? Which feelings or instincts or approaches to anything did she start out with that turned out not to be exactly what was called for? And what exactly did she learn from Luke, that she didn't teach him herself first? I completely agree, Rey as originally presented in The Force Awakens is a more fleshed-out and sympathetic character than Luke is in A New Hope. The farmboy eager for adventure has been a tired cliche for a long time, and our tastes in protagonists have moved a lot since the eighties. And her introduction really is well-written. But that doesn't change that Luke fights and struggles for every advantage he gains, undergoes a dramatically satisfying character arc and learns valuable lessons over the course of his journey, while Rey remains mostly static and simply manifests all the powers and abilities and all the understanding she needs naturally. Which makes her a pretty shitty role model for us human beings who occasionally turn out not to be perfect and kind of have to deal with that. I already went into some length about what Luke taught her. Obadiah has pretty much covered what damage her base instincts caused. I mean if you want to hand wave it away as not mattering you can easily apply the same thing to Luke. Him loosing his hand didn't matter because he was getting a new fully functional one not twenty minutes later. Also in general her initial default emotion when trying to deal with problems. She was a very fly by the seat of her pants person that only through sheer dumb luck managed to survive her first two movies. Yes she was very competent and very powerful which helped but she also was rash and often did things without thinking. I think her world view changing is a bit of a trap and unneccessary for character growth. Remember despite her issues she is still a good person who wants to do the right thing...just often goes about it in an insane manner. Her journey was internal one of self discovery and getting her anger in check and becoming a more whole person...just like any character journey is supposed to be. I mean did Luke's world view change? Did Harry Potter's? Did Aragorn's? All of them were good guy hero characters who had a pretty instinctual understanding of what the right thing to do was...even if they didn't go about it the best way or were on their own journies. I actually find her to be more flawed then Luke was. Luke's biggest problem was he was whiny and rash. Rey was rash but also had deep seated emotional and abandonment issues.
|
|
Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
inherit
658
0
3,624
Obadiah
2,677
August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
|
Post by Obadiah on Feb 8, 2020 20:33:12 GMT
... What do you mean her views and instincts "weren't the right ones for allowing herself to be mind interrogated" for information that never turns out to matter? It doesn't matter. It didn't hurt anyone, and her causing it to happen ultimately just resulted in Snoke's death, which was brilliant for her and all her friends. ... I mean, allowing herself to be caught and interrogated and giving up Luke's location in an attempt to redeem Kylo to the light, which ends up pushing Kylo further to the Dark Side and making him the Supreme Commander of the First Order is a failure. Complaining that the story doesn't do enough with that failure, or characterizing Kylo's rise as some sort of success for Rey because Snoke dies doesn't seem like a fair assessment, and smacks of lulzy meta analysis. This is supposed to be evidence of Rey succeeding, and lack of realizing she has made mistakes?
Fine, knock yourself out.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,016 Likes: 3,551
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,551
Noxluxe
2,016
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 8, 2020 20:36:20 GMT
I already went into some length about what Luke taught her. Obadiah has pretty much covered what damage her base instincts caused. I mean if you want to hand wave it away as not mattering you can easily apply the same thing to Luke. Him loosing his hand didn't matter because he was getting a new fully functional one not twenty minutes later. Also in general her initial default emotion when trying to deal with problems. She was a very fly by the seat of her pants person that only through sheer dumb luck managed to survive her first two movies. Yes she was very competent and very powerful which helped but she also was rash and often did things without thinking. I think her world view changing is a bit of a trap and unneccessary for character growth. Remember despite her issues she is still a good person who wants to do the right thing...just often goes about it in an insane manner. Her journey was internal one of self discovery and getting her anger in check and becoming a more whole person...just like any character journey is supposed to be. I mean did Luke's world view change? Did Harry Potter's? Did Aragorn's? All of them were good guy hero characters who had a pretty instinctual understanding of what the right thing to do was...even if they didn't go about it the best way or were on their own journies. I actually find her to be more flawed then Luke was. Luke's biggest problem was he was whiny and rash. Rey was rash but also had deep seated emotional and abandonment issues. No, Obadiah has pointed out select moments when her Mary Sueity wasn't quite powerful enough to end the movies then and there. I've yet to hear about her instincts causing actual damage. And no, losing a hand and getting a good prosthetic one in its place isn't exactly the same as divulging potentially dangerous information that is then immediately rendered harmless. That's an... interesting comparison for someone to make. You don't imagine that Luke ever regrets having lost his right hand? That the excruciating moment of losing it with his own tyrannical father standing over him isn't a trauma that's stuck with him? That it's not a painful reminder of his weaknesses every time he has to clean or repair it, or even just whenever he looks at it? I remember watching it happen for the first time as a kid and being shocked and horrified and disbelieving that the hero had lost a part of himself, a real part of his own body. That from now on he'd always be lesser just because he made that one mistake. It changed my image of Luke forever. And I'm not sure how relevant it is that her perfect success is equal amounts inexplicable luck and inexplicable competence. My point is that everything she does, whether luck or skill or lack of luck or lack of skill, ultimately ends in a win. Is that something you can relate to? I'm curious when and how exactly you feel like she "got her anger in check" or "became a more whole person". Harry Potter learned about relying on his friends, about finding people who actually deserved his trust and being willing to let others shoulder burdens and make sacrifices instead of doing everything himself. Aragorn developed a sense of civic responsibility, the confidence to take charge and self-acceptance enough to actually be happy with the woman he loved. Having a pretty instinctual understanding of right and wrong isn't a problem, but if a character isn't visibly processing and internalizing new experiences throughout their journey then they aren't recognizably human. Which is one of the reasons Rey isn't working as a protagonist for so many people. Luke being whiny and his rashness were obstacles in his path that he had to overcome and which cost him and his friends dearly as the story progressed. Rey's rashness and abandonment issues each only served to make her a more successful, competent and pure-hearted Jedi. Neither ever backfired on her, and without them the villains would have won in the first movie. That's not precisely what having flaws usually means. I mean, allowing herself to be caught and interrogated and giving up Luke's location in an attempt to redeem Kylo to the light, which ends up pushing Kylo further to the Dark Side and making him the Supreme Commander of the First Order is a failure. Complaining that the story doesn't do enough with that failure, or characterizing Kylo's rise as some sort of success for Rey because Snoke dies doesn't seem like a fair assessment, and smacks of lulzy meta analysis. This is supposed to be evidence of Rey succeeding, and lack of realizing she hasn't made mistakes?
Fine, knock yourself out. My friend, consider yourself lucky that you apparently don't know the difference between miserable guilt and plain bitter disappointment in a woman's face. I stand by what I said. You're trying to frame Rey as complicit in Kylo turning out to be a monster in a weird attempt to prove that she has flaws and makes wrong decisions and is an actual character. And again, no thank you.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Sept 29, 2024 21:59:03 GMT
35,117
colfoley
18,363
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Feb 8, 2020 23:13:32 GMT
I already went into some length about what Luke taught her. Obadiah has pretty much covered what damage her base instincts caused. I mean if you want to hand wave it away as not mattering you can easily apply the same thing to Luke. Him loosing his hand didn't matter because he was getting a new fully functional one not twenty minutes later. Also in general her initial default emotion when trying to deal with problems. She was a very fly by the seat of her pants person that only through sheer dumb luck managed to survive her first two movies. Yes she was very competent and very powerful which helped but she also was rash and often did things without thinking. I think her world view changing is a bit of a trap and unneccessary for character growth. Remember despite her issues she is still a good person who wants to do the right thing...just often goes about it in an insane manner. Her journey was internal one of self discovery and getting her anger in check and becoming a more whole person...just like any character journey is supposed to be. I mean did Luke's world view change? Did Harry Potter's? Did Aragorn's? All of them were good guy hero characters who had a pretty instinctual understanding of what the right thing to do was...even if they didn't go about it the best way or were on their own journies. I actually find her to be more flawed then Luke was. Luke's biggest problem was he was whiny and rash. Rey was rash but also had deep seated emotional and abandonment issues. No, Obadiah has pointed out select moments when her Mary Sueity wasn't quite powerful enough to end the movies then and there. I've yet to hear about her instincts causing actual damage. And no, losing a hand and getting a good prosthetic one in its place isn't exactly the same as divulging potentially dangerous information that is then immediately rendered harmless. That's an... interesting comparison for someone to make. You don't imagine that Luke ever regrets having lost his right hand? That the excruciating moment of losing it with his own tyrannical father standing over him isn't a trauma that's stuck with him? That it's not a painful reminder of his weaknesses every time he has to clean or repair it, or even just whenever he looks at it? I remember watching it happen for the first time as a kid and being shocked and horrified and disbelieving that the hero had lost a part of himself, a real part of his own body. That from now on he'd always be lesser just because he made that one mistake. It changed my image of Luke forever. And I'm not sure how relevant it is that her perfect success is equal amounts inexplicable luck and inexplicable competence. My point is that everything she does, whether luck or skill or lack of luck or lack of skill, ultimately ends in a win. Is that something you can relate to? I'm curious when and how exactly you feel like she "got her anger in check" or "became a more whole person". Harry Potter learned about relying on his friends, about finding people who actually deserved his trust and being willing to let others shoulder burdens and make sacrifices instead of doing everything himself. Aragorn developed a sense of civic responsibility, the confidence to take charge and self-acceptance enough to actually be happy with the woman he loved. Having a pretty instinctual understanding of right and wrong isn't a problem, but if a character isn't visibly processing and internalizing new experiences throughout their journey then they aren't recognizably human. Which is one of the reasons Rey isn't working as a protagonist for so many people. Luke being whiny and his rashness were obstacles in his path that he had to overcome and which cost him and his friends dearly as the story progressed. Rey's rashness and abandonment issues each only served to make her a more successful, competent and pure-hearted Jedi. Neither ever backfired on her, and without them the villains would have won in the first movie. That's not precisely what having flaws usually means. I mean, allowing herself to be caught and interrogated and giving up Luke's location in an attempt to redeem Kylo to the light, which ends up pushing Kylo further to the Dark Side and making him the Supreme Commander of the First Order is a failure. Complaining that the story doesn't do enough with that failure, or characterizing Kylo's rise as some sort of success for Rey because Snoke dies doesn't seem like a fair assessment, and smacks of lulzy meta analysis. This is supposed to be evidence of Rey succeeding, and lack of realizing she hasn't made mistakes?
Fine, knock yourself out. My friend, consider yourself lucky that you apparently don't know the difference between miserable guilt and plain bitter disappointment in a woman's face. I stand by what I said. You're trying to frame Rey as complicit in Kylo turning out to be a monster in a weird attempt to prove that she has flaws and makes wrong decisions and is an actual character. And again, no thank you. Yes, yes I do usually find those kind of characters relatable. If the last 5 or 6 years of my entertainment viewing pleasure is any indiacation a lot of my favorite characters ARE hyper competent individuals (best with the sword, best the bow, naturally good at the Force) who can kick a lot of ass and take a lot of names and are usually really good or honorable people...point of fact one of them is about the only really consistently honorable one in the entire setting. Its just that these people (including Rey) have super relatable and interestin flaws to me. I don't really know *why* these character arcs gel with me so much, maybe its from a writing stand point and I think its a fascinating phemnon when characters can be really flawed and really powerful, maybe its because a lot of the flaws and issues these characters go through are ones I feel like I do, struggles with finding an identity, anger, frustration, or fear of themselves, or maybe I see it that if these people can have these flaws and still rise above them to be utter bad asses maybe there is hope for me. Like I said, I don't know the reasons...but this will be a constant source of disagreement between us. I see Rey as being a very flawed person, her success or lack thereof is not important. The same logic you apply to Rey I apply to Luke. If the end result of his arc in ROTJ is any indication he did not learn from his rashness and it did not matter to him in the end given he...very rashly...went off to go face the Emperor and Vader alone without help. Because apparently that's what heroes do. Sure he was a little more powerful and a little more mature but it was still an incredibly stupid thing to do and the only reason it happened was Lucas needed a reason to have the two of them face off for one final confrontation. Whereas Rey in her final confrontation practically sent out a beacon saying 'this way to Exegol'. She learned to overcome her rashness and actually came up with a much more rational plan on dealing with it (she jusr had no way of knowing that its kind of what Palpatine wanted). Which was indicitive of her getting over her anger and her other issues to become a new person. She was offered one final chance by Palpatine to have everything that she ever wanted...offered by Palpatine to either give into her anger or her despair...and she refused. Had TFA Rey been in the same position as TROS Rey was I think she would've sliced Palpatine in half and falle as a result. And I think this is pretty much what good character arcs are all about. Character has obstacles...both internal and external...they either get over those issues and win or they succomb to them and lose.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,016 Likes: 3,551
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,551
Noxluxe
2,016
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 9, 2020 0:33:43 GMT
I see Rey as being a very flawed person, her success or lack thereof is not important. The same logic you apply to Rey I apply to Luke. If the end result of his arc in ROTJ is any indication he did not learn from his rashness and it did not matter to him in the end given he...very rashly...went off to go face the Emperor and Vader alone without help. Because apparently that's what heroes do. Sure he was a little more powerful and a little more mature but it was still an incredibly stupid thing to do and the only reason it happened was Lucas needed a reason to have the two of them face off for one final confrontation. Whereas Rey in her final confrontation practically sent out a beacon saying 'this way to Exegol'. She learned to overcome her rashness and actually came up with a much more rational plan on dealing with it (she jusr had no way of knowing that its kind of what Palpatine wanted). Which was indicitive of her getting over her anger and her other issues to become a new person. She was offered one final chance by Palpatine to have everything that she ever wanted...offered by Palpatine to either give into her anger or her despair...and she refused. Had TFA Rey been in the same position as TROS Rey was I think she would've sliced Palpatine in half and falle as a result. And I think this is pretty much what good character arcs are all about. Character has obstacles...both internal and external...they either get over those issues and win or they succomb to them and lose. Okay, I'm just going to stop asking how long ago you've seen these movies. If you can bring yourself to remember, Luke approaches Darth Vader and allows himself to be taken to the Emperor in a coordinated effort to hopefully turn Vader but at least distract the Emperor while his friends blow up the shield generator on Endor and then sneak attack the theoretically still nonoperational second Death Star before it's fully built. It's a calculated risk he takes to trust his sense of his father's emotional landscape and if that fails then to sacrifice himself to end the Empire once and for all. There's no rashness or stupidity involved, it's a plan he went with because it made the most sense and because he rationally judged that it was worth risking his life, and he shared it with others so they could all make the most of it. At no point does he imagine that he's going there to just wing it and overpower either Vader or the Emperor, let alone both. He never even intends to turn on his lightsaber. The plan then fails because Palpatine turns out to be far more knowledgeable about the rebels' plans than anticipated, and it's from that point on that he's forced to improvise, and in the course of doing so he demonstrates the true Jedi spirit so convincingly that it causes the Emperor to abandon his plan of turning him to the dark side, which causes Vader to defend his son, as was the original plan A, which is what finally wins the day. Luke shows bravery, sure, but also the composure, patience and humility he lacked as a young moisture farmer, and that's specifically why he wins. In contrast, Rey runs off stupidly to follow the map on her new dagger by herself and runs alone into Kylo in the process. They have a fight in which she's over-matched but which she wins anyway because of course. She then stupidly abandons the cause to impulsively emulate Luke as a cowardly and pathetic hermit, and stupidly burns her starship. She then immediately snaps out of it, gets another ship and makes her way to Exegol completely independently of her friends who are preparing to attack it, and miraculously arrives just in time for her, "Ben" and her friends to all attack the Emperor and his fleet at roughly the same time. No real coordination with her allies, no planning or backup-planning, no humility or imagination or real understanding of what she's getting herself into. Just a chaotic mess of an effort to destroy Palpatine and... that's as far as she manages to think. And she wins, simply because Disney wouldn't have it any other way. All her stupidity and terrible decision-making is completely glossed over and she's granted final victory because she's Rey and that's just how it turns out. Kylo dies, sure, but not for reasons that she had any control over or could have done anything differently about, and she walks away from the whole experience in perfect form, apparently feeling worthy of "all the Jedi", and Luke and Leia in particular. Yeah, Rey is definitely the greater hero. She's the one everyone should look up to. It makes perfect sense for the entire saga to have been about telling her amazing story.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Sept 29, 2024 21:59:03 GMT
35,117
colfoley
18,363
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Feb 9, 2020 1:27:10 GMT
I see Rey as being a very flawed person, her success or lack thereof is not important. The same logic you apply to Rey I apply to Luke. If the end result of his arc in ROTJ is any indication he did not learn from his rashness and it did not matter to him in the end given he...very rashly...went off to go face the Emperor and Vader alone without help. Because apparently that's what heroes do. Sure he was a little more powerful and a little more mature but it was still an incredibly stupid thing to do and the only reason it happened was Lucas needed a reason to have the two of them face off for one final confrontation. Whereas Rey in her final confrontation practically sent out a beacon saying 'this way to Exegol'. She learned to overcome her rashness and actually came up with a much more rational plan on dealing with it (she jusr had no way of knowing that its kind of what Palpatine wanted). Which was indicitive of her getting over her anger and her other issues to become a new person. She was offered one final chance by Palpatine to have everything that she ever wanted...offered by Palpatine to either give into her anger or her despair...and she refused. Had TFA Rey been in the same position as TROS Rey was I think she would've sliced Palpatine in half and falle as a result. And I think this is pretty much what good character arcs are all about. Character has obstacles...both internal and external...they either get over those issues and win or they succomb to them and lose. Okay, I'm just going to stop asking how long ago you've seen these movies. If you can bring yourself to remember, Luke approaches Darth Vader and allows himself to be taken to the Emperor in a coordinated effort to hopefully turn Vader but at least distract the Emperor while his friends blow up the shield generator on Endor and then sneak attack the theoretically still nonoperational second Death Star before it's fully built. It's a calculated risk he takes to trust his sense of his father's emotional landscape and if that fails then to sacrifice himself to end the Empire once and for all. There's no rashness or stupidity involved, it's a plan he went with because it made the most sense and because he rationally judged that it was worth risking his life, and he shared it with others so they could all make the most of it. At no point does he imagine that he's going there to just wing it and overpower either Vader or the Emperor, let alone both. He never even intends to turn on his lightsaber. The plan then fails because Palpatine turns out to be far more knowledgeable about the rebels' plans than anticipated, and it's from that point on that he's forced to improvise, and in the course of doing so he demonstrates the true Jedi spirit so convincingly that it causes the Emperor to abandon his plan of turning him to the dark side, which causes Vader to defend his son, as was the original plan A, which is what finally wins the day. Luke shows bravery, sure, but also the composure, patience and humility he lacked as a young moisture farmer, and that's specifically why he wins. In contrast, Rey runs off stupidly to follow the map on her new dagger by herself and runs alone into Kylo in the process. They have a fight in which she's over-matched but which she wins anyway because of course. She then stupidly abandons the cause to impulsively emulate Luke as a cowardly and pathetic hermit, and stupidly burns her starship. She then immediately snaps out of it, gets another ship and makes her way to Exegol completely independently of her friends who are preparing to attack it, and miraculously arrives just in time for her, "Ben" and her friends to all attack the Emperor and his fleet at roughly the same time. No real coordination with her allies, no planning or backup-planning, no humility or imagination or real understanding of what she's getting herself into. Just a chaotic mess of an effort to destroy Palpatine and... that's as far as she manages to think. And she wins, simply because Disney wouldn't have it any other way. All her stupidity and terrible decision-making is completely glossed over and she's granted final victory because she's Rey and that's just how it turns out. Kylo dies, sure, but not for reasons that she had any control over or could have done anything differently about, and she walks away from the whole experience in perfect form, apparently feeling worthy of "all the Jedi", and Luke and Leia in particular. Yeah, Rey is definitely the greater hero. She's the one everyone should look up to. It makes perfect sense for the entire saga to have been about telling her amazing story. Yes I recognize what you are saying as quite accurate. However it was still a stupid hail marry that was, once again, pretty lucky it worked. Though since Luke may not have been expecting to survive the attempt in the first place which kind of makes it justifiable. Your argument seems to hinge on Rey 'winning' too easily. But if we follow it to its natural conclusion then its almost hard to imagine any character arc satisfying you since most heroes end up winning. And quite the contrary Rey may win or survive most of her struggles but its often not without extreme cost to herself or others...let alone the fact that she downright looses in TLJ. So to your specifc TROS related issues. Rey was still going through her issues, that was before she had a chance to get over herself and she only 'won' against Kylo because Leia sacrificed herself...saving them both from Palpy's first attempt. Note this was specifically BEFORE she faced Palpatine and passed her final test. She only did that because she was terrified herself and apparently was reading the reviews for the Last Jedi and thought that the lesson that Luke taught her was that you should isolate herself because she was doomed into a cycle of failure. But then Luke showed up and talked her out of it...reminding her of the actual lesson from the Last Jedi that your blood, heritage, power, or ideology does not doom you...anyone is capable to do better. He also just happened to have another lightsaber handy...and where she got the ship was set up all the way back in TLJ. You are right there was limited planning or coordination on her end at that point...but she still had enough forethought to not have to go it alone. And she wins because she makes a series of choices that all leads up to and is conducive to winning. Because her entire character arc was preparing her for this moment that final test...and she could've just as easily have failed it...that is the importance of the final temptation of the lie. The events on this screen makes it clear. Palpatine offers to give her everything she once desired, a place in the story, purpose to her life, to protect her new growing family even...and she almost accepts. Almost gives in because she is despairing...but she senses Kylo and his redemption and once more is reminded that she does not have to give in, that there is still hope for her, and with that she hands over the lightsaber to Kylo (in my interpretation of events being quite prepared to sacrifice her life) and hence throws away the hold her lies and flaws have over her...which is then further exemplified by the end of the moving, choosing the name Skywalker, and building her own Lightsaber. ...Gosh I love these movies. Edit: Also mega kudos to Daisy Ridley and her acting. Just watching TFA recently her performance may be a little stiff but by TROS its actually pretty...great all things considered. That JJ could trust her to actually emote and not have to yell everything out for the audience is a testement to how she has grown over the course of this series.
|
|
Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
inherit
658
0
3,624
Obadiah
2,677
August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
|
Post by Obadiah on Feb 9, 2020 5:56:37 GMT
Okay, I'm just going to stop asking how long ago you've seen these movies. If you can bring yourself to remember, Luke approaches Darth Vader and allows himself to be taken to the Emperor in a coordinated effort to hopefully turn Vader but at least distract the Emperor while his friends blow up the shield generator on Endor and then sneak attack the theoretically still nonoperational second Death Star before it's fully built. It's a calculated risk he takes to trust his sense of his father's emotional landscape and if that fails then to sacrifice himself to end the Empire once and for all. There's no rashness or stupidity involved, it's a plan he went with because it made the most sense and because he rationally judged that it was worth risking his life, and he shared it with others so they could all make the most of it. At no point does he imagine that he's going there to just wing it and overpower either Vader or the Emperor, let alone both. He never even intends to turn on his lightsaber. The plan then fails because Palpatine turns out to be far more knowledgeable about the rebels' plans than anticipated, and it's from that point on that he's forced to improvise, and in the course of doing so he demonstrates the true Jedi spirit so convincingly that it causes the Emperor to abandon his plan of turning him to the dark side, which causes Vader to defend his son, as was the original plan A, which is what finally wins the day. Luke shows bravery, sure, but also the composure, patience and humility he lacked as a young moisture farmer, and that's specifically why he wins. In contrast, Rey runs off stupidly to follow the map on her new dagger by herself and runs alone into Kylo in the process. They have a fight in which she's over-matched but which she wins anyway because of course. She then stupidly abandons the cause to impulsively emulate Luke as a cowardly and pathetic hermit, and stupidly burns her starship. She then immediately snaps out of it, gets another ship and makes her way to Exegol completely independently of her friends who are preparing to attack it, and miraculously arrives just in time for her, "Ben" and her friends to all attack the Emperor and his fleet at roughly the same time. No real coordination with her allies, no planning or backup-planning, no humility or imagination or real understanding of what she's getting herself into. Just a chaotic mess of an effort to destroy Palpatine and... that's as far as she manages to think. And she wins, simply because Disney wouldn't have it any other way. All her stupidity and terrible decision-making is completely glossed over and she's granted final victory because she's Rey and that's just how it turns out. Kylo dies, sure, but not for reasons that she had any control over or could have done anything differently about, and she walks away from the whole experience in perfect form, apparently feeling worthy of "all the Jedi", and Luke and Leia in particular. Yeah, Rey is definitely the greater hero. She's the one everyone should look up to. It makes perfect sense for the entire saga to have been about telling her amazing story. Yes I recognize what you are saying as quite accurate. However it was still a stupid hail marry that was, once again, pretty lucky it worked. Though since Luke may not have been expecting to survive the attempt in the first place which kind of makes it justifiable. Your argument seems to hinge on Rey 'winning' too easily. But if we follow it to its natural conclusion then its almost hard to imagine any character arc satisfying you since most heroes end up winning. And quite the contrary Rey may win or survive most of her struggles but its often not without extreme cost to herself or others...let alone the fact that she downright looses in TLJ. So to your specifc TROS related issues. Rey was still going through her issues, that was before she had a chance to get over herself and she only 'won' against Kylo because Leia sacrificed herself...saving them both from Palpy's first attempt. Note this was specifically BEFORE she faced Palpatine and passed her final test. She only did that because she was terrified herself and apparently was reading the reviews for the Last Jedi and thought that the lesson that Luke taught her was that you should isolate herself because she was doomed into a cycle of failure. But then Luke showed up and talked her out of it...reminding her of the actual lesson from the Last Jedi that your blood, heritage, power, or ideology does not doom you...anyone is capable to do better. He also just happened to have another lightsaber handy...and where she got the ship was set up all the way back in TLJ. You are right there was limited planning or coordination on her end at that point...but she still had enough forethought to not have to go it alone. And she wins because she makes a series of choices that all leads up to and is conducive to winning. Because her entire character arc was preparing her for this moment that final test...and she could've just as easily have failed it...that is the importance of the final temptation of the lie. The events on this screen makes it clear. Palpatine offers to give her everything she once desired, a place in the story, purpose to her life, to protect her new growing family even...and she almost accepts. Almost gives in because she is despairing...but she senses Kylo and his redemption and once more is reminded that she does not have to give in, that there is still hope for her, and with that she hands over the lightsaber to Kylo (in my interpretation of events being quite prepared to sacrifice her life) and hence throws away the hold her lies and flaws have over her...which is then further exemplified by the end of the moving, choosing the name Skywalker, and building her own Lightsaber. ...Gosh I love these movies. Edit: Also mega kudos to Daisy Ridley and her acting. Just watching TFA recently her performance may be a little stiff but by TROS its actually pretty...great all things considered. That JJ could trust her to actually emote and not have to yell everything out for the audience is a testement to how she has grown over the course of this series. Rey's character journey is: TFA: Cannot run from the pending galactic conflict and learns to face it TLJ: Stops looking for a savior (parents, Luke, Kylo) and learns to rely on herself and her friends RoS: Becomes afraid of her power and heritage, and has to learn again to believe trust herself The plan in RoS was to find Exegol, and Rey initially wanted to go on the mission alone. Running to the Death Star to find the wayfinder by herself was rash, and as far as she knew, she failed in her fight with Kylo and lost the Wayfinder, and so took off in fear of what else she would do (cuz of the Dark Rey vision). When she took off in Luke's fighter with the wayfinder she was completing the mission in the manner of her choosing, alone. She probably thought her friends on the ground would be a liability as they were not Force trained warriors, and she was probably right.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Sept 29, 2024 21:59:03 GMT
35,117
colfoley
18,363
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Feb 9, 2020 6:13:21 GMT
Yes I recognize what you are saying as quite accurate. However it was still a stupid hail marry that was, once again, pretty lucky it worked. Though since Luke may not have been expecting to survive the attempt in the first place which kind of makes it justifiable. Your argument seems to hinge on Rey 'winning' too easily. But if we follow it to its natural conclusion then its almost hard to imagine any character arc satisfying you since most heroes end up winning. And quite the contrary Rey may win or survive most of her struggles but its often not without extreme cost to herself or others...let alone the fact that she downright looses in TLJ. So to your specifc TROS related issues. Rey was still going through her issues, that was before she had a chance to get over herself and she only 'won' against Kylo because Leia sacrificed herself...saving them both from Palpy's first attempt. Note this was specifically BEFORE she faced Palpatine and passed her final test. She only did that because she was terrified herself and apparently was reading the reviews for the Last Jedi and thought that the lesson that Luke taught her was that you should isolate herself because she was doomed into a cycle of failure. But then Luke showed up and talked her out of it...reminding her of the actual lesson from the Last Jedi that your blood, heritage, power, or ideology does not doom you...anyone is capable to do better. He also just happened to have another lightsaber handy...and where she got the ship was set up all the way back in TLJ. You are right there was limited planning or coordination on her end at that point...but she still had enough forethought to not have to go it alone. And she wins because she makes a series of choices that all leads up to and is conducive to winning. Because her entire character arc was preparing her for this moment that final test...and she could've just as easily have failed it...that is the importance of the final temptation of the lie. The events on this screen makes it clear. Palpatine offers to give her everything she once desired, a place in the story, purpose to her life, to protect her new growing family even...and she almost accepts. Almost gives in because she is despairing...but she senses Kylo and his redemption and once more is reminded that she does not have to give in, that there is still hope for her, and with that she hands over the lightsaber to Kylo (in my interpretation of events being quite prepared to sacrifice her life) and hence throws away the hold her lies and flaws have over her...which is then further exemplified by the end of the moving, choosing the name Skywalker, and building her own Lightsaber. ...Gosh I love these movies. Edit: Also mega kudos to Daisy Ridley and her acting. Just watching TFA recently her performance may be a little stiff but by TROS its actually pretty...great all things considered. That JJ could trust her to actually emote and not have to yell everything out for the audience is a testement to how she has grown over the course of this series. Rey's character journey is: TFA: Cannot run from the pending galactic conflict and learns to face it TLJ: Stops looking for a savior (parents, Luke, Kylo) and learns to rely on herself and her friends RoS: Becomes afraid of her power and heritage, and has to learn again to believe in herself The plan in RoS was to find Exegol, and Rey initially wanted to go on the mission alone. Running to the Death Star to find the wayfinder by herself was rash, and as far as he knew, she failed in her fight with Kylo and lost the Wayfinder, and so took off in fear of what else she would do (cuz of the Dark Rey vision). When she took off in Luke's fighter with the wayfinder she was completing the mission in the manner of her choosing, alone. She probably thought her friends on the ground would be a liability as they were not Force trained warriors, and she was probably right. I couldn't find the scene on YouTube to double check but I am pretty sure the Resistance mentioned a beacon and pointing the way to exegol.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,910
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,910
Iakus
21,081
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2020 6:22:32 GMT
I already went into some length about what Luke taught her. Obadiah has pretty much covered what damage her base instincts caused. I mean if you want to hand wave it away as not mattering you can easily apply the same thing to Luke. Him loosing his hand didn't matter because he was getting a new fully functional one not twenty minutes later. Also in general her initial default emotion when trying to deal with problems. She was a very fly by the seat of her pants person that only through sheer dumb luck managed to survive her first two movies. Yes she was very competent and very powerful which helped but she also was rash and often did things without thinking. I think her world view changing is a bit of a trap and unneccessary for character growth. Remember despite her issues she is still a good person who wants to do the right thing...just often goes about it in an insane manner. Her journey was internal one of self discovery and getting her anger in check and becoming a more whole person...just like any character journey is supposed to be. I mean did Luke's world view change? Did Harry Potter's? Did Aragorn's? All of them were good guy hero characters who had a pretty instinctual understanding of what the right thing to do was...even if they didn't go about it the best way or were on their own journies. I actually find her to be more flawed then Luke was. Luke's biggest problem was he was whiny and rash. Rey was rash but also had deep seated emotional and abandonment issues. No, Obadiah has pointed out select moments when her Mary Sueity wasn't quite powerful enough to end the movies then and there. I've yet to hear about her instincts causing actual damage. And no, losing a hand and getting a good prosthetic one in its place isn't exactly the same as divulging potentially dangerous information that is then immediately rendered harmless. That's an... interesting comparison for someone to make. You don't imagine that Luke ever regrets having lost his right hand? That the excruciating moment of losing it with his own tyrannical father standing over him isn't a trauma that's stuck with him? That it's not a painful reminder of his weaknesses every time he has to clean or repair it, or even just whenever he looks at it? I remember watching it happen for the first time as a kid and being shocked and horrified and disbelieving that the hero had lost a part of himself, a real part of his own body. That from now on he'd always be lesser just because he made that one mistake. It changed my image of Luke forever. Not to mention serving as a warning to him in ROTJ. After cutting off Vader's hand in his wrath-filled attack, he looked on the mechanical stump that was left, and then down at his own hand, realizing that in that moment, he was on the edge of becoming going down the same path as his father. Perhaps even remembering Kenobi's observation: "He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil"
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Sept 29, 2024 9:16:20 GMT
31,554
Hanako Ikezawa
22,978
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 9, 2020 6:41:09 GMT
No, Obadiah has pointed out select moments when her Mary Sueity wasn't quite powerful enough to end the movies then and there. I've yet to hear about her instincts causing actual damage. And no, losing a hand and getting a good prosthetic one in its place isn't exactly the same as divulging potentially dangerous information that is then immediately rendered harmless. That's an... interesting comparison for someone to make. You don't imagine that Luke ever regrets having lost his right hand? That the excruciating moment of losing it with his own tyrannical father standing over him isn't a trauma that's stuck with him? That it's not a painful reminder of his weaknesses every time he has to clean or repair it, or even just whenever he looks at it? I remember watching it happen for the first time as a kid and being shocked and horrified and disbelieving that the hero had lost a part of himself, a real part of his own body. That from now on he'd always be lesser just because he made that one mistake. It changed my image of Luke forever. Not to mention serving as a warning to him in ROTJ. After cutting off Vader's hand in his wrath-filled attack, he looked on the mechanical stump that was left, and then down at his own hand, realizing that in that moment, he was on the edge of becoming going down the same path as his father. Perhaps even remembering Kenobi's observation: "He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil" Ironically, that’s the only limb Anakin lost while on the path of the Light Side.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,910
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,910
Iakus
21,081
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2020 18:08:28 GMT
Not to mention serving as a warning to him in ROTJ. After cutting off Vader's hand in his wrath-filled attack, he looked on the mechanical stump that was left, and then down at his own hand, realizing that in that moment, he was on the edge of becoming going down the same path as his father. Perhaps even remembering Kenobi's observation: "He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil" Ironically, that’s the only limb Anakin lost while on the path of the Light Side. Eh, debatable. He lost it to a Sith Lord, but he was already on the path to the Dark Side. He'd already killed those Sand People. And he lost the hand by charging recklessly into battle with Dooku rather than working with Obi-Wan, forcing them to face him one at a time.
|
|
Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
inherit
658
0
3,624
Obadiah
2,677
August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
|
Post by Obadiah on Feb 9, 2020 18:27:19 GMT
Not to mention serving as a warning to him in ROTJ. After cutting off Vader's hand in his wrath-filled attack, he looked on the mechanical stump that was left, and then down at his own hand, realizing that in that moment, he was on the edge of becoming going down the same path as his father. Perhaps even remembering Kenobi's observation: "He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil" That's a good parallel to the scene in RotS where Anakin was faced with a similar choice with Count Dooku, and chose a different path because he realized how similar he and Vader were becoming. That realization of their shared past and futures played into Vader's similar decision to kill the Emperor.
Since we're comparing Luke and Rey, "Free us, or die." Not the most Jedi declaration.
This is one thing that the new trilogy was missing for Rey, a setup mission for the hero to establish who they have become (leadership, competence, confidence, etc) at the start of the third film. The prequels had the mission to rescue Chancellor Palpatine, the original had the mission to rescue Han, sequel trilogies not so much.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,016 Likes: 3,551
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,551
Noxluxe
2,016
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 9, 2020 18:48:49 GMT
Yes I recognize what you are saying as quite accurate. However it was still a stupid hail marry that was, once again, pretty lucky it worked. Though since Luke may not have been expecting to survive the attempt in the first place which kind of makes it justifiable. Your argument seems to hinge on Rey 'winning' too easily. But if we follow it to its natural conclusion then its almost hard to imagine any character arc satisfying you since most heroes end up winning. And quite the contrary Rey may win or survive most of her struggles but its often not without extreme cost to herself or others...let alone the fact that she downright looses in TLJ. So to your specifc TROS related issues. Rey was still going through her issues, that was before she had a chance to get over herself and she only 'won' against Kylo because Leia sacrificed herself...saving them both from Palpy's first attempt. Note this was specifically BEFORE she faced Palpatine and passed her final test. She only did that because she was terrified herself and apparently was reading the reviews for the Last Jedi and thought that the lesson that Luke taught her was that you should isolate herself because she was doomed into a cycle of failure. But then Luke showed up and talked her out of it...reminding her of the actual lesson from the Last Jedi that your blood, heritage, power, or ideology does not doom you...anyone is capable to do better. He also just happened to have another lightsaber handy...and where she got the ship was set up all the way back in TLJ. You are right there was limited planning or coordination on her end at that point...but she still had enough forethought to not have to go it alone. And she wins because she makes a series of choices that all leads up to and is conducive to winning. Because her entire character arc was preparing her for this moment that final test...and she could've just as easily have failed it...that is the importance of the final temptation of the lie. The events on this screen makes it clear. Palpatine offers to give her everything she once desired, a place in the story, purpose to her life, to protect her new growing family even...and she almost accepts. Almost gives in because she is despairing...but she senses Kylo and his redemption and once more is reminded that she does not have to give in, that there is still hope for her, and with that she hands over the lightsaber to Kylo (in my interpretation of events being quite prepared to sacrifice her life) and hence throws away the hold her lies and flaws have over her...which is then further exemplified by the end of the moving, choosing the name Skywalker, and building her own Lightsaber. ...Gosh I love these movies. Edit: Also mega kudos to Daisy Ridley and her acting. Just watching TFA recently her performance may be a little stiff but by TROS its actually pretty...great all things considered. That JJ could trust her to actually emote and not have to yell everything out for the audience is a testement to how she has grown over the course of this series. Sure, insofar as any risky but necessary plan ever is a "stupid hail mary". Most characters end up winning specifically because of lessons they learned along the way and by making informed decisions that demonstrate their courage or wisdom or acceptance of something they've struggled with and aspired to, because that's what makes them inspiring. Rey wins every struggle she engages in. Everything she does in the series showcases her strength and goodness. Even when Snoke overpowered her in TLJ her influence over Kylo causes him to kill the man, after which she stands up and they fight off the presumably most skilled warriors in the First Order during which she beats the living hell out of them and saves Kylo's life. She ends up looking like the biggest badass in the galaxy even when she "loses". When her success comes at "extreme cost to others or herself" it's funnily enough never a consequence of any decision she personally makes, like it's supposed to be for protagonists to learn their lessons, so attributing it to her is false. It'd be more accurate to say that Rey goes from triumph to triumph and that unfortunate things occasionally happen adjacently to her that she then has to react to or use to her advantage. And the movies don't give her time to reflect on or work through those unfortunate things, so they don't even appear to touch her. I'll have to take your word for that being what Luke tells her on the island. But your understanding of the final battle is completely different from mine. I never worried a second about her taking Palpatine's deal because at no point whatsoever during the trilogy had she made any choice that that even resembled moral weakness. Or weakness of any kind really, other than a lack of common sense. Her going unresisting to the "darkness" or whatever during Luke's lesson doesn't even count, because she's given no reason in the world not to and there's nothing dark about it. We're only made to think it's questionable because he whines about it. I honestly wished that she would accept, because giving herself over to evil in despair would finally make her an interesting character with a recognizably human arc. But I knew she wouldn't, because the movies had never dared to frame her as being fallible and weren't about to start at the very end of the trilogy. So of course, even if she was going to, which I don't buy, she was fortunately snapped out of it by another's intervention before anyone could get the idea that she was actually a little bit evil. Then she passed her lightsaber to "Ben" - which I thought was very well-setup, a surprising and logical use of something they'd been featuring in both RoS and TLJ. Except that "Ben" shouldn't even be in trouble. He arrived to fight his "knights" with both superior force powers and a blaster in hand, from which they had no defense. When we next saw him a moment later he was getting his ass kicked with the shitty kind of medieval weapons, and that blaster was nowhere to be seen. The fight was clearly written and then overwritten to give him receiving her lightsaber more oomph than it actually deserved. I don't interpret her as doing it with the intention of sacrificing her life either. We know that she has two lightsabers at that point, and she passes one to him. Which makes sense, but doesn't leave her significantly disadvantaged since she has no reason to be more skilled with two than one and lightsabers aren't even useful to her at the moment. Then "Ben" is with her, and a lot of vague Force shit that the audience has very little chance of understanding occurs, and contrivances happen with "Ben" and holes in the floor, and Rey is granted the power to kill Palpatine in a very confusing moment. Somehow, while her striking him down earlier with her lightsaber would have resulted in him possessing her, her frying him with his own lightning at the end does not. For no given reason. There's no consistency. And nothing really hinges on her decisions made or lessons learned either now or during the trilogy. She might have rejected his deal because of vague and underdeveloped character reasons, but she wins because she was born with power she didn't earn, and because others have been or are granting her power freely without earning it. The signal she's sending to the audience is "Just believe in yourself, take and accept everything you possibly can along the way, except when someone obviously evil tries to sell you something then just say no, and you'll be golden." And the way the story is written, what we should then expect is for the Emperor to rise in her body immediately after, because she ultimately followed his plan of her killing him exactly. But he doesn't, because this is Rey after all, so the plot just makes another quiet exception for her. Urgh. All the flash and great visuals and explosions kinda sorta made up for most of the bullshit upon viewing the movie, but that's about it. Don't remember Daisy's acting making a huge impression on me, even though I think she does well in both TFA and TLJ. And he lost the hand by charging recklessly into battle with Dooku rather than working with Obi-Wan, forcing them to face him one at a time. That's how I understand it too. Since we're comparing Luke and Rey, "Free us, or die." Not the most Jedi declaration.
This is one thing that the new trilogy was missing for Rey, a setup mission for the hero to establish who they have become (leadership, competence, confidence, etc) at the start of the third film. The prequels had the mission to rescue Chancellor Palpatine, the original had the mission to rescue Han, sequel trilogies not so much. Eh. In the context it's an offer of mercy and an objective appraisal of how the situation is going to turn out due to Jabba's own decisions, not a threat. Absolutely a Jedi declaration. The RoS has a setup mission. Poe and Finn retrieving data from an informant, and having to escape a Tie squadron. Rey just isn't on it, because she's too busy pretending she suddenly isn't the best in the galaxy at everything anymore, and needs training. Which Poe actually complains about during and after, implying either that if she had been there then they never would have gotten into trouble in the first place, or that she would have been able to fix the situation in some way they couldn't because she's so much more awesome than they are. At flying. Does well enough to set up how the movie wants us to think about her.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,910
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,910
Iakus
21,081
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2020 19:52:41 GMT
Since we're comparing Luke and Rey, "Free us, or die." Not the most Jedi declaration. Could have been worse: I mean, this is basically what TFA WAS!
|
|
inherit
Darth Dennis
111
0
Jul 27, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
9,146
masterwarderz
8,113
August 2016
mastermasterwarderz
19,824
|
Post by masterwarderz on Feb 9, 2020 19:52:51 GMT
Ya know I had an idea the prior night of what sort of movie I'd actually do in the Star Wars universe and I came up with it.
Endor, the battle as it was depicted in the novels is an event worth telling, a battle that lasts almost 15 hours after the Second Death Star was destroyed? I mean we see enough to get the gist of what is going on between Death Squadron and the Rebels though that mostly focuses on either Home One or Lando, I'd like to actually portray it through the lense of squadron leaders, captains and admirals of both sides throughout this massive engagement, from the reveal of the trap, to the destruction of the flagship, to the station itself going up shortly later, to the chaos that rained down across the chain of command as the Imperials desperately tried to cobble together something resembling a battlefield command, as each individual ship and captain fought for themselves as they held the line for a joint retreat or fled on their own.
All together I think I could do this quite well in the vein of a war movie as you'd see coming from the world war II vein.
o.o Best part? The OG main cast are cameo appearances at best, so the new people could be whomever or whatever...save for a few instances I'd insist upon anyway.
|
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Feb 9, 2020 20:14:55 GMT
Rey's character journey is: TFA: Cannot run from the pending galactic conflict and learns to face it TLJ: Stops looking for a savior (parents, Luke, Kylo) and learns to rely on herself and her friends RoS: Becomes afraid of her power and heritage, and has to learn again to believe in herself The plan in RoS was to find Exegol, and Rey initially wanted to go on the mission alone. Running to the Death Star to find the wayfinder by herself was rash, and as far as he knew, she failed in her fight with Kylo and lost the Wayfinder, and so took off in fear of what else she would do (cuz of the Dark Rey vision). When she took off in Luke's fighter with the wayfinder she was completing the mission in the manner of her choosing, alone. She probably thought her friends on the ground would be a liability as they were not Force trained warriors, and she was probably right. I couldn't find the scene on YouTube to double check but I am pretty sure the Resistance mentioned a beacon and pointing the way to exegol. They picked up a signal from Rogue Five, and said that must be Rey. I'm not sure whether they just picked up the X-Wing, or Rey intentionally transmitted some signal. I'm not even sure if that signal showed them the way. It was also around that time that the little droid all of a sudden remembered out of nowhere that it had useful info, and told them about the ships not being able to use shields while taking off, needing the tower to navigate, etc. So if the little droid knew all that, it could have told them the way.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,910
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,910
Iakus
21,081
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2020 20:16:01 GMT
Ya know I had an idea the prior night of what sort of movie I'd actually do in the Star Wars universe and I came up with it. Endor, the battle as it was depicted in the novels is an event worth telling, a battle that lasts almost 15 hours after the Second Death Star was destroyed? I mean we see enough to get the gist of what is going on between Death Squadron and the Rebels though that mostly focuses on either Home One or Lando, I'd like to actually portray it through the lense of squadron leaders, captains and admirals of both sides throughout this massive engagement, from the reveal of the trap, to the destruction of the flagship, to the station itself going up shortly later, to the chaos that rained down across the chain of command as the Imperials desperately tried to cobble together something resembling a battlefield command, as each individual ship and captain fought for themselves as they held the line for a joint retreat or fled on their own. All together I think I could do this quite well in the vein of a war movie as you'd see coming from the world war II vein. o.o Best part? The OG main cast are cameo appearances at best, so the new people could be whomever or whatever...save for a few instances I'd insist upon anyway. In a similar vein, the battle in space from the pov of Captain Gilad Pellaeon.
|
|
inherit
11346
0
Sept 29, 2024 9:24:35 GMT
1,439
skekSil
1,200
November 2019
skeksil
Mass Effect Trilogy, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by skekSil on Feb 9, 2020 20:38:58 GMT
Ya know I had an idea the prior night of what sort of movie I'd actually do in the Star Wars universe and I came up with it. Endor, the battle as it was depicted in the novels is an event worth telling, a battle that lasts almost 15 hours after the Second Death Star was destroyed? I mean we see enough to get the gist of what is going on between Death Squadron and the Rebels though that mostly focuses on either Home One or Lando, I'd like to actually portray it through the lense of squadron leaders, captains and admirals of both sides throughout this massive engagement, from the reveal of the trap, to the destruction of the flagship, to the station itself going up shortly later, to the chaos that rained down across the chain of command as the Imperials desperately tried to cobble together something resembling a battlefield command, as each individual ship and captain fought for themselves as they held the line for a joint retreat or fled on their own. All together I think I could do this quite well in the vein of a war movie as you'd see coming from the world war II vein. o.o Best part? The OG main cast are cameo appearances at best, so the new people could be whomever or whatever...save for a few instances I'd insist upon anyway. no one will make a pure war movie set in sci-fi setting
|
|
inherit
Darth Dennis
111
0
Jul 27, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
9,146
masterwarderz
8,113
August 2016
mastermasterwarderz
19,824
|
Post by masterwarderz on Feb 9, 2020 20:49:24 GMT
Ya know I had an idea the prior night of what sort of movie I'd actually do in the Star Wars universe and I came up with it. Endor, the battle as it was depicted in the novels is an event worth telling, a battle that lasts almost 15 hours after the Second Death Star was destroyed? I mean we see enough to get the gist of what is going on between Death Squadron and the Rebels though that mostly focuses on either Home One or Lando, I'd like to actually portray it through the lense of squadron leaders, captains and admirals of both sides throughout this massive engagement, from the reveal of the trap, to the destruction of the flagship, to the station itself going up shortly later, to the chaos that rained down across the chain of command as the Imperials desperately tried to cobble together something resembling a battlefield command, as each individual ship and captain fought for themselves as they held the line for a joint retreat or fled on their own. All together I think I could do this quite well in the vein of a war movie as you'd see coming from the world war II vein. o.o Best part? The OG main cast are cameo appearances at best, so the new people could be whomever or whatever...save for a few instances I'd insist upon anyway. no one will make a pure war movie set in sci-fi setting Couldn't be any worse than the sequel trilogy if you ask me. At least it would be a passion project.
|
|
inherit
Darth Dennis
111
0
Jul 27, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
9,146
masterwarderz
8,113
August 2016
mastermasterwarderz
19,824
|
Post by masterwarderz on Feb 9, 2020 20:50:48 GMT
Ya know I had an idea the prior night of what sort of movie I'd actually do in the Star Wars universe and I came up with it. Endor, the battle as it was depicted in the novels is an event worth telling, a battle that lasts almost 15 hours after the Second Death Star was destroyed? I mean we see enough to get the gist of what is going on between Death Squadron and the Rebels though that mostly focuses on either Home One or Lando, I'd like to actually portray it through the lense of squadron leaders, captains and admirals of both sides throughout this massive engagement, from the reveal of the trap, to the destruction of the flagship, to the station itself going up shortly later, to the chaos that rained down across the chain of command as the Imperials desperately tried to cobble together something resembling a battlefield command, as each individual ship and captain fought for themselves as they held the line for a joint retreat or fled on their own. All together I think I could do this quite well in the vein of a war movie as you'd see coming from the world war II vein. o.o Best part? The OG main cast are cameo appearances at best, so the new people could be whomever or whatever...save for a few instances I'd insist upon anyway. In a similar vein, the battle in space from the pov of Captain Gilad Pellaeon. Would've adored that prior to Rebels ruining Thrawn and basically all characters that were associated with him by default.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,910
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,910
Iakus
21,081
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2020 20:54:15 GMT
In a similar vein, the battle in space from the pov of Captain Gilad Pellaeon. Would've adored that prior to Rebels ruining Thrawn and basically all characters that were associated with him by default. I have no idea what you're talking about. Rebels is just more Disney fanfiction.
|
|
inherit
11346
0
Sept 29, 2024 9:24:35 GMT
1,439
skekSil
1,200
November 2019
skeksil
Mass Effect Trilogy, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by skekSil on Feb 9, 2020 21:08:04 GMT
no one will make a pure war movie set in sci-fi setting Couldn't be any worse than the sequel trilogy if you ask me. At least it would be a passion project. Of course it can. Take the Room for example - passion project, notoriously bad movie.
|
|