The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 8, 2017 15:06:53 GMT
This goes for every character in every game with an affection system. It doesn't mean everyone pick them regardless of what is stated. No, only if you want to romance the character. The same goes when the game has a friendship/approval system. There is no other way to form a bond with the character, at least with the player having the choice. And if you don't like them or their values and the choice you have to make to befriend or romance them, there are people that won't pursue it. So it's not about picking the right choice, at least for a part of the players.
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Thrombin
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Post by Thrombin on Feb 8, 2017 15:39:21 GMT
Of course the story needs dramatic and emotional moments, but they should be tied to the previous choices you've made and the feelings should be shared by both the protagonist and the player. If this doesn't happen then it just doesn't resonate. Imagine a full renegade pro-human Shepard who has always criticised and bellittled the Asari, repeatedly telling them that their downfall is their own fault and yelling at them for keeping the Prothean beacon on Thessia secret. Why would their peak dramatic moment happen after Thessia? It makes no sense. I don't want to derail the thread but I clearly haven't got my point across so I'll give it one last try. The way I see it, Shepard's depression had nothing to do with how he felt about the Asari. It was about being defeated by Kai Leng and losing the crucible data - the only hope to save the Galaxy he'd been trying so hard to save. There is no conceivable version of Shepard, IMO, to which that depression wouldn't apply other than one who didn't care about saving the Galaxy and a Shepard who didn't care about saving the Galaxy was not a player option and quite rightly so. The story would not have worked at all with a Shepard like that. That depression, for me, was a great moment in the game. It really drove home that this was more than just a computer game that Shepard was really being affected by events and wasn't just some superhero who could do anything and never faltered. i don't think that moment would have worked at all if you gave the player exigency over whether to be depressed or not. It's not like people, IRL, choose whether or not to be depressed or stressed. So why should our character get to choose? I'm happy for there to be things where we do get to choose. That's good too but I don't think Bioware should have their hands tied to the point where moments like the post-Thessia depression are off the table. Other people may feel differently but, like I said, it's just my opinion. I feel ME3 would have been diminished if we hadn't had that moment and I felt it was perfectly compatible with every one of my Shepards from full Renegade to full Paragon. You have to be able to establish certain aspects of Ryder's character for it to be compatible with the story. Sociopath Ryder or psychopath Ryder are almost certainly not going to fit so if certain events rely on he/she not being one of those then I think it's perfectly fine to assume that, rather than having the player have to affirm it thorugh a dialogue option beforehand. Every Shepard story ended up with the crew mourning Shepard's loss. It assumes that Shepard was loved by his crew. A Shepard who hated aliens would never have even travelled with that crew never mind ended up being mourned by them. But the alternative, giving Shepard agency to hate aliens, how could you have worked that into the story without losing the heart of the story? A story which was essentially about humans and aliens working together to achieve the impossible. There are just some player opinions that don't fit and I don't think the story should be compromised in order to make them fit.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 8, 2017 15:44:37 GMT
Fabrice Condominas @faburisuI should have killed him #ChoicesAndConsequences now what do I do? 37% Reload a save 63% Live with my choices Fabrice Condominas @faburisu So the survey doesn't properly capture the winning answer which was: stick to it on 1st playthrough then start a new one
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 15:47:26 GMT
Fabrice Condominas @faburisuI should have killed him #ChoicesAndConsequences now what do I do? 37% Reload a save 63% Live with my choices Fabrice Condominas @faburisu So the survey doesn't properly capture the winning answer which was: stick to it on 1st playthrough then start a new one Killing is always the best option.
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revanshep78
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Post by revanshep78 on Feb 8, 2017 15:47:43 GMT
Fabrice Condominas @faburisuI should have killed him #ChoicesAndConsequences now what do I do? 37% Reload a save 63% Live with my choices Fabrice Condominas @faburisu So the survey doesn't properly capture the winning answer which was: stick to it on 1st playthrough then start a new one Sounds like we better watch our choices, they may actually come back to bite us! I'm very hopeful this is the case.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 8, 2017 15:49:17 GMT
Of course the story needs dramatic and emotional moments, but they should be tied to the previous choices you've made and the feelings should be shared by both the protagonist and the player. If this doesn't happen then it just doesn't resonate. Imagine a full renegade pro-human Shepard who has always criticised and bellittled the Asari, repeatedly telling them that their downfall is their own fault and yelling at them for keeping the Prothean beacon on Thessia secret. Why would their peak dramatic moment happen after Thessia? It makes no sense. I don't want to derail the thread but I clearly haven't got my point across so I'll give it one last try. The way I see it, Shepard's depression had nothing to do with how he felt about the Asari. It was about being defeated by Kai Leng and losing the crucible data - the only hope to save the Galaxy he'd been trying so hard to save. There is no conceivable version of Shepard, IMO, to which that depression wouldn't apply other than one who didn't care about saving the Galaxy and a Shepard who didn't care about saving the Galaxy was not a player option and quite rightly so. The story would not have worked at all with a Shepard like that. That depression, for me, was a great moment in the game. It really drove home that this was more than just a computer game that Shepard was really being affected by events and wasn't just some superhero who could do anything and never faltered. i don't think that moment would have worked at all if you gave the player exigency over whether to be depressed or not. It's not like people, IRL, choose whether or not to be depressed or stressed. So why should our character get to choose? I'm happy for there to be things where we do get to choose. That's good too but I don't think Bioware should have their hands tied to the point where moments like the post-Thessia depression are off the table. Other people may feel differently but, like I said, it's just my opinion. I feel ME3 would have been diminished if we hadn't had that moment and I felt it was perfectly compatible with every one of my Shepards from full Renegade to full Paragon. You have to be able to establish certain aspects of Ryder's character for it to be compatible with the story. Sociopath Ryder or psychopath Ryder are almost certainly not going to fit so if certain events rely on he/she not being one of those then I think it's perfectly fine to assume that, rather than having the player have to affirm it thorugh a dialogue option beforehand. Every Shepard story ended up with the crew mourning Shepard's loss. It assumes that Shepard was loved by his crew. A Shepard who hated aliens would never have even travelled with that crew never mind ended up being mourned by them. But the alternative, giving Shepard agency to hate aliens, how could you have worked that into the story without losing the heart of the story? A story which was essentially about humans and aliens working together to achieve the impossible. There are just some player opinions that don't fit and I don't think the story should be compromised in order to make them fit. Just to add while I understand your point and agree that there really isn't a way Shepard could be happy about that, there are different ways Shepard can be upset. Some Shepards would be depressed, others angry, others keep a more stoic expression, etc. So even then there are options that do fit the situation and could have been made as options. There are ways to allow both player choice and have a strong narrative, and that is vastly preferable to having parts of 'our' character preset. Unfortunately Bioware seems to be doing the latter with the Ryder siblings.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 8, 2017 15:54:32 GMT
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 8, 2017 16:13:40 GMT
Sorry About The Mess @satm_Podcast @tibermoon any idea how much storage I should have free on my XB1 for Andromeda? #AndromedaInitiative
Ian S. Frazier @tibermoon Not sure yet, still optimizing. I HAVE verified the game won't fit on a 3.5" floppy, though!
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Ianamus
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Post by Ianamus on Feb 8, 2017 16:15:35 GMT
Just to add while I understand your point and agree that there really isn't a way Shepard could be happy about that, there are different ways Shepard can be upset. Some Shepards would be depressed, others angry, others keep a more stoic expression, etc. So even then there are options that do fit the situation and could have been made as options. There are ways to allow both player choice and have a strong narrative, and that is vastly preferable to having parts of 'our' character preset. Unfortunately Bioware seems to be doing the latter with the Ryder siblings. Exactly. While Hawke was always upset when their mum died, at least the player could decide whether they reacted with sadness, anger, humour, or lashed out at the mages in their group. In ME3 you are left with the worst dialogue choice in the game: only two options and both of them have you yelling at Joker.
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kali073
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Post by kali073 on Feb 8, 2017 16:18:34 GMT
Just to add while I understand your point and agree that there really isn't a way Shepard could be happy about that, there are different ways Shepard can be upset. Some Shepards would be depressed, others angry, others keep a more stoic expression, etc. So even then there are options that do fit the situation and could have been made as options. There are ways to allow both player choice and have a strong narrative, and that is vastly preferable to having parts of 'our' character preset. Unfortunately Bioware seems to be doing the latter with the Ryder siblings. I agree that your character's agency doesn't have to be a big thing, just conversation choices that has different tones can be great. Even though Andromeda seems to have a strong narrative, maybe the four tones (head, heart, professional, casual) can make up for it - at least a little. More agency would be nice though.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 8, 2017 17:07:14 GMT
Some day, I'd love to see a game designed to Sylvius' preferences. See it, but definitely not play it. It's called D&D. D&D is multiplayer. Yes, that was me.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 8, 2017 17:12:43 GMT
Yas JaalicleCat Lana @yas_lana Dear @gamblemike aarynflynn I would like to ask if you could maybe give us a nice HD Jaal(wall)paper so we can stare at him all day? 😍 Aaryn Flynn aarynflynnHmmm don't see why not...
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Thrombin
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Post by Thrombin on Feb 8, 2017 17:18:28 GMT
D&D is multiplayer. Yes, that was me. They did make a few solo adventure modules, as I recall (showing my age, now ) Even with D&D the DM has to curtail certain player options. Most adventure hooks, for example, don't work with Evil characters. They just wouldn't be motivated to do a lot of the adventures I want to run or else they would clash too much with other characters and you'd end up with the story you want to tell being completely derailed by the players trying to kill each other! So even with something as free format as D&D you still need to curtail some player agency from the start by only allowing characters who would be compatible with each other and who would want to go where you want the story to go.
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bohemiadrinker
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Post by bohemiadrinker on Feb 8, 2017 17:25:42 GMT
Where did you get that font from? I have one, but it isnt as good as this! I made it.Feel free to use it, if you want. Edit: Oops, I just realized you were asking about the font: fontm.com/mass-effect-123-font/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 17:28:26 GMT
Where did you get that font from? I have one, but it isnt as good as this! I made it.Feel free to use it, if you want. You guys make my day much better.
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Post by bohemiadrinker on Feb 8, 2017 17:30:57 GMT
I made it.Feel free to use it, if you want. You guys make my day much better. Yeh, I didn't make the font, sorry. What I did make was the mistake of coming here before having any coffee and misreading stuff.
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Solas
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Post by Solas on Feb 8, 2017 17:33:44 GMT
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 8, 2017 17:40:11 GMT
Jen G @caravaggio4lyfe what does peebee find attractive in people 👀 Picking the right dialogue option is the true answer. Indeed that's the answer in all these games.
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trwisco
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Post by trwisco on Feb 8, 2017 17:43:12 GMT
I need an AI coffee mug! Make one bioware! Also, the Art of Mass Effect Andromeda looks kinda neat.
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Post by degs29 on Feb 8, 2017 17:51:23 GMT
Of course the story needs dramatic and emotional moments, but they should be tied to the previous choices you've made and the feelings should be shared by both the protagonist and the player. If this doesn't happen then it just doesn't resonate. Imagine a full renegade pro-human Shepard who has always criticised and bellittled the Asari, repeatedly telling them that their downfall is their own fault and yelling at them for keeping the Prothean beacon on Thessia secret. Why would their peak dramatic moment happen after Thessia? It makes no sense. The way I see it, Shepard's depression had nothing to do with how he felt about the Asari. It was about being defeated by Kai Leng and losing the crucible data - the only hope to save the Galaxy he'd been trying so hard to save. There is no conceivable version of Shepard, IMO, to which that depression wouldn't apply other than one who didn't care about saving the Galaxy and a Shepard who didn't care about saving the Galaxy was not a player option and quite rightly so. The story would not have worked at all with a Shepard like that. Totally agree. I think Thessia hit him hard because it was a major failure and he got to see part of what that failure meant.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 18:18:21 GMT
Sorry About The Mess @satm_Podcast @tibermoon any idea how much storage I should have free on my XB1 for Andromeda? #AndromedaInitiative Ian S. Frazier @tibermoonNot sure yet, still optimizing. I HAVE verified the game won't fit on a 3.5" floppy, though! Admiral Anderson @ieat_JEDi @tibermoon @satm_Podcast Some of these young folks don't even know what a 3.5" Floppy is... LOL. Ian S. Frazier @tibermoonEdit: Some people felt old after reading this. Hope this gif of a dog driving a baby carriage makes up for it somehow. Attachment Deleted
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Post by Psychedelic on Feb 8, 2017 18:26:22 GMT
Sorry About The Mess @satm_Podcast @tibermoon any idea how much storage I should have free on my XB1 for Andromeda? #AndromedaInitiative Ian S. Frazier @tibermoonNot sure yet, still optimizing. I HAVE verified the game won't fit on a 3.5" floppy, though! Admiral Anderson @ieat_JEDi @tibermoon @satm_Podcast Some of these young folks don't even know what a 3.5" Floppy is... LOL. Ian S. Frazier @tibermoonThanks, now I'm feeling old.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 18:28:16 GMT
Admiral Anderson @ieat_JEDi @tibermoon @satm_Podcast Some of these young folks don't even know what a 3.5" Floppy is... LOL. Ian S. Frazier @tibermoon Thanks, now I'm feeling old. Windows ME was my first computer. I'm not as old as some who had even older Windows systems, but I still have floppies in my closet.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 8, 2017 18:32:49 GMT
The way I see it, Shepard's depression had nothing to do with how he felt about the Asari. It was about being defeated by Kai Leng and losing the crucible data - the only hope to save the Galaxy he'd been trying so hard to save. There is no conceivable version of Shepard, IMO, to which that depression wouldn't apply other than one who didn't care about saving the Galaxy and a Shepard who didn't care about saving the Galaxy was not a player option and quite rightly so. The story would not have worked at all with a Shepard like that. Totally agree. I think Thessia hit him hard because it was a major failure and he got to see part of what that failure meant. yeah that I think is what mae him lash out like he did the fact he failed which was something he wasn't used togiven the hero's reputatoin he built up by pulling off the seemingly impossible by defeating Sovereign and the collectors.
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Sept 29, 2024 23:31:03 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 18:35:32 GMT
Totally agree. I think Thessia hit him hard because it was a major failure and he got to see part of what that failure meant. yeah that I think is what mae him lash out like he did the fact he failed which was something he wasn't used togiven the hero's reputatoin he built up by pulling off the seemingly impossible by defeating Sovereign and the collectors. Well, if the Reapers had attacked the temple and enabled Kai Leng to escape with the data, then it would be all ok with me. The problem was the way it was presented. Shepard didn't really lose, he/she was forced to become incompetent because the devs wanted to insert "emotional moments" in the game, and they made the gunship untouchable, none of your abilities mattered, nor even rational thought applied. Why didn't Shepard simply ran towards Leng? It was the obvious thing to do. He/she ran in the opposite direction! Or call Cortez for backup with the Gunship, or to stop them from getting away? Even before they got to the temple. Conveniently, the squadmates didn't do anything either, because both got knocked out by Leng (in one single strike), and before that he was getting owned as f#$ (Lash anyone?). If you'd have destroyed the gunship, but the Capital ships actually aimed their lasers towards the temple, pulverizing it and making sure Shepard got pinned down while Leng escaped with the data, that would've been an entirely different story. Not even Cortez could save the day if the Reapers were there as watchdogs. It doesn't defy logic, because Cerberus was always the Catalyst pawn, it doesn't let the Cortez rescue work either, and the situation would've been a lot more desperate than what was presented. Shepard PTSD would've made more sense as well.
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