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Post by themikefest on Dec 7, 2016 13:25:44 GMT
Zevran. He tried to kill me. So I return the favor. Loghain? What about him?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2016 13:27:56 GMT
For Ferelden Loghain sold the Ferelden elves. For Ferelden Loghain hunted the Ferelden Wardens. For Ferelden Loghin supported the corruption (Howe for example). (I not mention the "tactical retreat".) True, Anders was not a "Legendary Hero", nor a regent, just a mage, but in my story he was one of the heroes of Amaranthine, and he was a hero of refugees in his clinic (I know, to heal people not so heroic thing, than to kill people...), and hero of many mages in Kirkwall (before the explosion as well). This was what he was able to do it in his position. His cause was right (as you think, Loghain's cause as well), his tool was questionable (as Loghain's tools as well... or no. Loghain's tools was worse.) You sure, that only he was alone, who ignited the war? This was a thousand-years oppression, I think so much people wanted this revolution... -I did already addressed your first point when i said that elves are treated poorly by most Human lords and that what Loghain did to fund his army as despicable as it was is no where near comparable to what Celine and Gaspard and many of the Chevaliers do,the lords of Tevinter ecc... ,elves are treated poorly within this world that why there's the whole Solas plotline that's going on. -Grey wardens were not trusted in Ferleden and they were all punished and killed By Arland Theirin(Arland not just your average Loghain),Loghain wasn't the only one who had distrust towards them,their order being pointlessly secretive with a General in Ostagar just made things worse,as they didn't even bother to let him know why they are required in the first place. -You didn't even understood why Loghain had Howe around,what Howe tooks from the nobles he took with his own resources and by force not thanks to Loghain who never helped him but of course without Howe Loghain would have been stuck in a war against 3 opponents(Howe,the nobles,the GW)so that's why he tried to use Howe for his own ends but was in the end used by him. The only significant person who ignited the war was Anders (Fiona and co. came later also as a consequence of the turmoil)when he created that remendous scenario in Kirkwall,i doubt taht wihtout that explosion there would have been a war and to my knowledge is what Anders said,he bombed the chantry because he wanted to start the war that's was his reason This fact, that "so many people treated poorly the elves" not an excuse... or yes, this is and excuse, I can play with your rules. So: Loghin wanted money for Ferelden Army. He sold the elves. Loghain distrusted in Wardens, then he hunted and kills the wardens, in the middle of Blight, good, what's the problem? And: Anders wanted a revolution, he blew up the chantry. What's the problem? Victim are victim. This is true, I don't deny Anders' importance of unleashing the war (I like his –and Hawke's– role in this), but he would not able to start a war, if NO ONE (except him) want this war.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2016 13:30:32 GMT
He's on the list. And he was Zevran's client... why you choose Zevran why not Loghain?
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Post by themikefest on Dec 7, 2016 13:38:07 GMT
So what? Others are on the list that I didn't choose. So? Because I can
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2016 13:44:16 GMT
So what? Others are on the list that I didn't choose. So? Because I canI love your arguments.
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Post by akiza on Dec 7, 2016 14:00:35 GMT
there are others examples. Morrigan of DAO is a senseless hypocrite She criticizes the mages who live under the shackles that society places on them, even though she has grown up free because her adoptive witch mother, Flemeth, kept her relatively safe and almost totally secluded from the society that would have imprisoned her. She has absolutely no experience of the difficulties a mage faces when they try to escape, and she doesn't care. Even when confronted with the fact that she could have been brought up in this imprisonment and been the same as any other mage, she dismisses the argument without really addressing it, rather than even consider that the situations of other mages and herself could have been reversed. She scorns others for not fighting for the freedom she enjoys when she herself has had little role in attaining and keeping that freedom. This is more or less how it goes every time Morrigan comes across something she doesn't approve of. She criticizes the people and society of the world around her unflinchingly, while having never had to experience it--by her own admission she knows more or less nothing of civilization, since Flemeth raised her alone in a swamp her whole life But it's more than just ignorance bordering on hypocrisy, here. There's also just complete and utter hypocrisy, too. One of her big things is to criticize the followers of the Chant of Light, the major quasi-Christian-esque religion of this world, for being unthinking followers to laws and beliefs that they're told. The problem here is that, again, by her own admission, most everything she knows of the world (which is, again, not very much) is what Flemeth has taught her. Nearly every opinion she has and holds is formed before she's properly out in the world to experience that which she holds the opinion on. Of all the characters in the game, she's the one whose beliefs have been determined the most by what she's been told
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Post by akiza on Dec 7, 2016 14:15:11 GMT
Meh, I liked everyone in DAO. Loghian including. It was interesting betraying Alistair for once... I never thought I'd do it, but I did. It's not REALLY betrayal, only Alistair consider it as betrayal, but this is a simple decision (it is not even mercy). If warden let Anora to behead Alistair, well that's betrayal. It's Anora's decision to execute him, not the Warden's. It's not evil to allow the monarch (the one you just pretty much put on the throne) to exercise her sovereign right to execute someone, anyway especially if the player has no bound with Alistair beyond him being a GW.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2016 14:16:44 GMT
there are others examples. Morrigan of DAO is a senseless hypocrite She criticizes the mages who live under the shackles that society places on them, even though she has grown up free because her adoptive witch mother, Flemeth, kept her relatively safe and almost totally secluded from the society that would have imprisoned her. She has absolutely no experience of the difficulties a mage faces when they try to escape, and she doesn't care. Even when confronted with the fact that she could have been brought up in this imprisonment and been the same as any other mage, she dismisses the argument without really addressing it, rather than even consider that the situations of other mages and herself could have been reversed. She scorns others for not fighting for the freedom she enjoys when she herself has had little role in attaining and keeping that freedom. This is more or less how it goes every time Morrigan comes across something she doesn't approve of. She criticizes the people and society of the world around her unflinchingly, while having never had to experience it--by her own admission she knows more or less nothing of civilization, since Flemeth raised her alone in a swamp her whole life But it's more than just ignorance bordering on hypocrisy, here. There's also just complete and utter hypocrisy, too. One of her big things is to criticize the followers of the Chant of Light, the major quasi-Christian-esque religion of this world, for being unthinking followers to laws and beliefs that they're told. The problem here is that, again, by her own admission, most everything she knows of the world (which is, again, not very much) is what Flemeth has taught her. Nearly every opinion she has and holds is formed before she's properly out in the world to experience that which she holds the opinion on. Of all the characters in the game, she's the one whose beliefs have been determined the most by what she's been told I think she's not hypocritical: she really do not have knowledge, experience from many social things. And yes, she is judgmental. Judgemental =/= hypocritical.
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Post by oyabun on Dec 7, 2016 14:33:52 GMT
Morrigan of DAO is a senseless hypocrite She criticizes the mages who live under the shackles that society places on them, even though she has grown up free because her adoptive witch mother, Flemeth, kept her relatively safe and almost totally secluded from the society that would have imprisoned her. She has absolutely no experience of the difficulties a mage faces when they try to escape, and she doesn't care. Even when confronted with the fact that she could have been brought up in this imprisonment and been the same as any other mage, she dismisses the argument without really addressing it, rather than even consider that the situations of other mages and herself could have been reversed. She scorns others for not fighting for the freedom she enjoys when she herself has had little role in attaining and keeping that freedom. This is more or less how it goes every time Morrigan comes across something she doesn't approve of. She criticizes the people and society of the world around her unflinchingly, while having never had to experience it--by her own admission she knows more or less nothing of civilization, since Flemeth raised her alone in a swamp her whole life But it's more than just ignorance bordering on hypocrisy, here. There's also just complete and utter hypocrisy, too. One of her big things is to criticize the followers of the Chant of Light, the major quasi-Christian-esque religion of this world, for being unthinking followers to laws and beliefs that they're told. The problem here is that, again, by her own admission, most everything she knows of the world (which is, again, not very much) is what Flemeth has taught her. Nearly every opinion she has and holds is formed before she's properly out in the world to experience that which she holds the opinion on. Of all the characters in the game, she's the one whose beliefs have been determined the most by what she's been told I think she's not hypocritical: she really do not have knowledge, experience from many social things. And yes, she is judgmental. Judgemental =/= hypocritical. That's not being judgmental that's exactly being hypocritical in behaviour imho,she basically follow what she has been told but when others people do the same (like some of the follower of the Chant of light )she scorns them. Not to mention the whole Ritual deal,In DAO she does not want to allow FLemeth soul to reincarnate in her body(and she even ask for her mother's death because of that suspicion)but she has no problem in using Kieren's body for the revival of another soul........ok
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2016 14:37:32 GMT
It's not REALLY betrayal, only Alistair consider it as betrayal, but this is a simple decision (it is not even mercy). If warden let Anora to behead Alistair, well that's betrayal. It's Anora's decision to execute him, not the Warden's. It's not evil to allow the monarch (the one you just pretty much put on the throne) to exercise her sovereign right to execute someone, anyway especially if the player has no bound with Alistair beyond him being a GW. The Warden can prevent the execution of Alistair. I think, if the Warden befriended with him, we can call betrayal, if don't try to convince Anora.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2016 14:55:34 GMT
I think she's not hypocritical: she really do not have knowledge, experience from many social things. And yes, she is judgmental. Judgemental =/= hypocritical. [...] Not to mention the whole Ritual deal,In DAO she does not want to allow FLemeth soul to reincarnate in her body(and she even ask for her mother's death because of that suspicion)but she has no problem in using Kieren's body for the revival of another soul........ok That's a point. Yes. (Despite, that at the moment, when the old god's soul going into the fetus, it haven't soul, as she know. But still not right.)
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Post by fylimar on Dec 11, 2016 10:03:53 GMT
DAO has for me the least likeable cast. I have three companions, I really don't like: Alistair (I tried, because everyone else seems to like him. I even did play through his romance once - all the way to the end, but that made me dislike him even more), Oghren and Morrigan and one companion, I find annoying: Leliana. Sten, Zevran and Wynne, I really like, so they are mostly in my party. Shale is a bit meh and Loghain isn't normally around long enough around to make a final decision. I belief in second chances (and in DAI my inquis never sentence anyone to death), so Loghain had a few chances. He was actually fun to have around, because he can give you a lot of insight - especially if you take him to Return to Ostagar (preferrable with Wynne to get the most out informationwise). I even load up a world stat, where Loghain was made GW and Alistair rules with Anora (which seems to work great for him). I did like Loghain in DAI, he really did made the best of his situation and became obviously a very dutyful GW. Of course, he still has to die in the Fade, because no way I kill my Hawkes for anyone (... well... maybe Varric... maybe) Edit: I didn't have the cast problem with any of the other games: DAA has some nice companions (Oghren of course gets to be ignored for the whole game), DA2 had two companions, I didn't like, Merrill and Sebastian, but the rest was really great and in DAI there is actually no companion, I dislike
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 2:02:15 GMT
I'm the first vote for Sten? Ehhh I'm not keen on the guy, he's so far up his own ass it annoys me. But 'he's so big and muscly and has horns!' just doesn't fly with me. I'm forever mystified that ppl will jump to defend Sten's actions but are happy to hang Morrigan, Zevran or Loghain for theirs. Of course Loghain is my waifu so I won't hear anything against him. Not at all biased, honest. I do not know for you, but when your "waifu" (technically "husbando" in this case) persistently tries to be a thorn in your side to the success of your mission, such as agreeing to send an assassin after you, it would give me pause on the more than questionable relationship. All a matter of perspective, I suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 12:25:35 GMT
I'm the first vote for Sten? Ehhh I'm not keen on the guy, he's so far up his own ass it annoys me. But 'he's so big and muscly and has horns!' just doesn't fly with me. I'm forever mystified that ppl will jump to defend Sten's actions but are happy to hang Morrigan, Zevran or Loghain for theirs. Of course Loghain is my waifu so I won't hear anything against him. Not at all biased, honest. I do not know for you, but when your "waifu" (technically "husbando" in this case) persistently tries to be a thorn in your side to the success of your mission, such as agreeing to send an assassin after you, it would give me pause on the more than questionable relationship. All a matter of perspective, I suppose.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 12, 2016 16:50:41 GMT
I'm the first vote for Sten? Ehhh I'm not keen on the guy, he's so far up his own ass it annoys me. But 'he's so big and muscly and has horns!' just doesn't fly with me. I'm forever mystified that ppl will jump to defend Sten's actions but are happy to hang Morrigan, Zevran or Loghain for theirs. Of course Loghain is my waifu so I won't hear anything against him. Not at all biased, honest. Liking Sten and Respecting Sten are two different things. I do respect Sten due to he own up to his own bullshit and let himself get arrested because he knew he did wrong and yes I do agree with him that he did wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 16:58:57 GMT
I'm the first vote for Sten? Ehhh I'm not keen on the guy, he's so far up his own ass it annoys me. But 'he's so big and muscly and has horns!' just doesn't fly with me. I'm forever mystified that ppl will jump to defend Sten's actions but are happy to hang Morrigan, Zevran or Loghain for theirs. Of course Loghain is my waifu so I won't hear anything against him. Not at all biased, honest. I do not know for you, but when your "waifu" (technically "husbando" in this case) persistently tries to be a thorn in your side to the success of your mission, such as agreeing to send an assassin after you, it would give me pause on the more than questionable relationship. All a matter of perspective, I suppose. Everybody has their problematic fave.
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Post by Finvola on Dec 15, 2016 17:51:39 GMT
I know Oghren isn't on this list but I think he's far more skeevy and vile in Awakening than he is in Origins. As far as him being crap in Origins, it's because I think he's such a terrible fighter. (Although I think he's much more useful in Awakening) I hate having him locked into the Paragon quest. I understand why he needs to be there but he's mostly dead weight to me and just makes the fight more difficult by having to babysit him so much.
As far as disliking companions based on personality, my opinion changes from save to save, depending on who I play. Sometimes Alistair gets on my nerves, sometimes it's Morrigan, other times it's Leiliana.
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 15, 2016 18:58:19 GMT
I know Oghren isn't on this list but I think he's far more skeevy and vile in Awakening than he is in Origins. As far as him being crap in Origins, it's because I think he's such a terrible fighter. (Although I think he's much more useful in Awakening) I hate having him locked into the Paragon quest. I understand why he needs to be there but he's mostly dead weight to me and just makes the fight more difficult by having to babysit him so much. As far as disliking companions based on personality, my opinion changes from save to save, depending on who I play. Sometimes Alistair gets on my nerves, sometimes it's Morrigan, other times it's Leiliana. Oghren tends to be a lot better the earlier you pick him up as a companion. I try to do Orzammar first or second, at least up until he joins the party. That way I can level him up appropriately and equip him as needed. I'm still not an Oghren fan tho'. His personality leaves much to be desired.
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Post by mike3207 on Dec 16, 2016 3:01:29 GMT
Alistair gets my vote.
He can stay in camp as far as I'm concerned.
Part of it is that I don't need a warrior tank that much, and part just not liking the character.
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Post by secretrare on Dec 17, 2016 12:30:42 GMT
The funny thing about Loghain is that he isn't willingfull dishonest like your Orlesian noble who is able to perform schemes and complex intrigues in order to gain power and influence,he truly believed to be in the right,he is just insane and lost his mind in DAO,pretty much like Anders in DAII. as for the topic i will vote Dog because "reasons" nah just kidding. No, Loghain isn't Anders. The political power made him paranoid, and because of his hatred toward the orlesians, he lost his common sense, but Loghain wasn't lunatic. Loghain had abused his political power. And Anders did not give his people into slavery. Loghain is different, much worse than Anders, even if you consider Anders a crazy terrorist. Anders...there is no one in the whole DA franchise that disappointed me more than him.At the beginning of DAII he was pure perfection an incarnation of all of my ideals,selfless,humble and heroic the only person that bothered to help poor people with his magical gifts for free in a world like the one of Thedas which is full of hatred and envy,basically he was like a saint to me. At the end of the DAII he became a part of the mediocrity of the self absorbed people only interested in their goals. Loghain i do not mind,since he was a young boy he had always an angry temperament,more than reededm him in DAO there was nothing i could have done as i never expected anything great coming from him.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 17, 2016 14:04:46 GMT
No, Loghain isn't Anders. The political power made him paranoid, and because of his hatred toward the orlesians, he lost his common sense, but Loghain wasn't lunatic. Loghain had abused his political power. And Anders did not give his people into slavery. Loghain is different, much worse than Anders, even if you consider Anders a crazy terrorist. Anders...there is no one in the whole DA franchise that disappointed me more than him.At the beginning of DAII he was pure perfection an incarnation of all of my ideals,selfless,humble and heroic the only person that bothered to help poor people with his magical gifts for free in a world like the one of Thedas which is full of hatred and envy,basically he was like a saint to me. At the end of the DAII he became a part of the mediocrity of the self absorbed people only interested in their goals. Loghain i do not mind,since he was a young boy he had always an angry temperament,more than reededm him in DAO there was nothing i could have done as i never expected anything great coming from him. Anders' did what he done, for all mages in Southern Thedas, not for himself. He was free. You can be question his tool, but his cause is clearly right. And never stopped to heal who needed, and to help mages, just the story not focused for it. Angry boy or not, Loghain was a regent. And nothing of things, what he did in Origins came from his anger... (and I didn't read The Stolen Throne). And no matter, what you expected from him, the baseline was that Loghain like Anders. But no. I think Loghain worse, because he have political power, he e had the opportunity to use better tools to save his people, not for example to sale his people...
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Post by jackrabbit on Dec 19, 2016 0:51:15 GMT
Holy crap this needed to be asked. Thing is, I generally love Bioware games for the companions. Planescape Torment and Jade Empire come to mind. However, I freaking HATED a number of the DA:O companions. Let's start with fan favorite Morrigan. I couldn't stand her. She complained not just at every small diversion (understandable given that we should be trying to save the world) but at any point I was simply decent to people for the sake of not being a jerk. Gee, Morrigan, so sorry we don't all want to be as miserable as you.
Wynne was also insufferable. Her whole attitude was 'If anyone disagrees with me they simply don't see the wisdom of my withered ass.' God, I hated her.
Zevran was disgusting trash. Leliana kind of put me off with her whole 'Oh, I'm spiritual but I also kill people and act like it's a game' thing.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 19, 2016 1:14:11 GMT
Holy crap this needed to be asked. Thing is, I generally love Bioware games for the companions. Planescape Torment and Jade Empire come to mind. However, I freaking HATED a number of the DA:O companions. Let's start with fan favorite Morrigan. I couldn't stand her. She complained not just at every small diversion (understandable given that we should be trying to save the world) but at any point I was simply decent to people for the sake of not being a jerk. Gee, Morrigan, so sorry we don't all want to be as miserable as you. Wynne was also insufferable. Her whole attitude was 'If anyone disagrees with me they simply don't see the wisdom of my withered ass.' God, I hated her. Zevran was disgusting trash. Leliana kind of put me off with her whole 'Oh, I'm spiritual but I also kill people and act like it's a game' thing. Many people think the similar about the DA2 companions, who in love with all DA:O companions. (I only dislike Vivienne and Sera in the whole series, the others are good or at least bearable.) What do you think about Sten, Shale, Alistair, Loghain, Oghren, dog? (Morrigan, Zevran/Leliana and Wynne quite good as group with a warrior...)
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jackrabbit
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Post by jackrabbit on Dec 19, 2016 1:44:02 GMT
Sten was standoffish and I REALLY dislike the Qun in general. Kind of a side note, but while I understand that Felicia Day is beloved by geeks I really couldn't stand her in Mark of the Assassin. She just felt like someone else's Mary Sue fanfic character inserted into my dlc. I guess that's neither here nor there but it contributes to my general aggravation with the Qun. (I REALLY dislike the Qun but I give Dragon Age credit for inventing a cultural ideology that I can debate.) Still, Sten seemed semi-decent even if he was ultimately a brainwashed pawn. I thought Shale was GREAT I actually detected the female voice actress (I think she might have voiced Kreia- whatever that character's name was in Old Republic?) but wasn't sure if she was female or if they just went with the female VO. Anyway, I loved Shale's general impatience with everything and her GLADOS-like hatred of birds. No complaints there. Alistair was okay, if a bit of a tool. Kind of bugged me how he immediately acquiesced to everything Wynne said in conversation. I think his heart was in the right place but I didn't like him much. Interestingly, the fan base is pretty split on him- male fans tend to not like him while female fans often do. Loghain is one of my favorite Dragon Age characters simply for his complexity. He's not a villain- simply a patriotic Fereldan who's gone around the bend. He's so paranoid about Orlais that he can't see the immediate threat of the blight and ultimately jeopardizes the land. Don't get me wrong- he does a LOT of bad stuff but I appreciate an antagonist who isn't one-dimensional. Oghren gets points for being voiced by Steve Blum. More thoughts on that character some other time. Have typed too much already. The dog is fine.
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secretrare
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Post by secretrare on Dec 19, 2016 19:06:19 GMT
Anders...there is no one in the whole DA franchise that disappointed me more than him.At the beginning of DAII he was pure perfection an incarnation of all of my ideals,selfless,humble and heroic the only person that bothered to help poor people with his magical gifts for free in a world like the one of Thedas which is full of hatred and envy,basically he was like a saint to me. At the end of the DAII he became a part of the mediocrity of the self absorbed people only interested in their goals. Loghain i do not mind,since he was a young boy he had always an angry temperament,more than reededm him in DAO there was nothing i could have done as i never expected anything great coming from him. Anders' did what he done, for all mages in Southern Thedas, not for himself. He was free. You can be question his tool, but his cause is clearly right. And never stopped to heal who needed, and to help mages, just the story not focused for it. Angry boy or not, Loghain was a regent. And nothing of things, what he did in Origins came from his anger... (and I didn't read The Stolen Throne). And no matter, what you expected from him, the baseline was that Loghain like Anders. But no. I think Loghain worse, because he have political power, he e had the opportunity to use better tools to save his people, not for example to sale his people... Anders did not helped anyone with his actions and his cause isn't right either,as total freedom for mages without any restrictions doesn't make sense to me. Bashing Loghain with the slavery argument as a sort of counter point to prove that Anders is "better" doesn't make sense to me as Anders himself is the first one that supported it for Fenris.
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