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Post by akiza on Apr 4, 2017 14:46:47 GMT
With all the problems Bioware has to deal with MEA(which is imho a very bad game with tons of glitches I've finished it yesterday)they couldn't care less of unresolved plot holes or questlines from their old games.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 19, 2017 22:19:06 GMT
One that was mentioned into another Thread.There is no way to prove that Alistair is son of Maric to the nobility because Maric is not in the game,so why they just take it for granted at the Landsmeet just because Eamon say so? I think that's nonsense that they allowed him to take the crown like that,I mean if it was that easy,why not take a pesant,dress him well and support him as the last living son of Maric? That's why for me all ending with Alistair king don't make sense.
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Post by Abraxas on May 3, 2017 18:34:14 GMT
In fact, that plot hole was dealt with in the World of Thedas vol. 2. According to that book, the nobles of Ferelden (or at least, some of them) didn't bought the "Maric bastard son" story, and did a investigation about it in 9:31 Dragon. However, the investigation was fruitless because what you said: there was no evidence either to prove or disprove that Alistair was the son of Maric. Regardless of it, Alistair (if made king) is considered a Hero of the Fifth Blight and people respects him for that (according to DAI codex). I guess that this status, plus the backing of Eamon and other nobles (and the HoF, if survives) is what makes possible that Alistair became the king and maintained that position by the time of Inquisition. As for this: Let`s see... The darkspawn horde is gathering in the Korcari Wilds, probably deploying from a Deep Road entrance located there. That is a clever move from the Archdemon, since they are only a few Chasind to deal with, and the horde is out of sight for Fereldans, thus buying time to came out in a large enough number to overwhelm Ferelden quickly. Unfortunately, Duncan passes by (probably alerted by somebody like Chasind, Fereldan soldiers, another GW - we have no idea) and discovers the horde. We see this in the Intro scene. The Royal Army is gathered and deployed at Ostagar. A few battles are won, while the horde is busy comming out from the Deep Roads. Then we have the last battle, which is one of the most idiotic battle scenes I ever saw in a game. Cailan has only a few hundred soldiers, and instead of remaining under cover to hit the darkspawn with arrows and spells, holding his line, the stupid king charges a much larger horde. Loghain retreats, the Royal Army is mostly whipped out with probably only modest casualties for the horde. Then the horde spreads out, hits Lothering some days later, then ... vanishes . FOR A YEAR! Except for a few small bands. Which is utterly moronic. BW or Gaider cannot expect us to believe that a few templars and farmers from Lothering whipped out most of the darkspawn - a miracle feat even for a large army. More than that, Loghain is busy punishing nobles, trying to kill the remaining GW`s and apparently not concerned at all about the darkspawn. The same about Eamon and our Warden after Redcliffe is secured. Nobody in Ferelden gives a damn about the darkspawn horde until after the Landsmeet, when the Archdemon conveniently wakes up from her "little yearlong nap" (although we were able to see her in the Deep Roads very much active) and hits Redcliffe and Denerim. Now all this is crazy. The Archdemon is not stupid and started the campaign well. Then after Ostagar, when Ferelden is practically leaderless and in civil war, she doesn`t push for a fast conquest of the entire Ferelden and instead waits for I cannot even imagine what. More than that, we already know from Gaider`s book "The Stolen Throne" that there are several Deep Road entrances in Ferelden (Gaider was still working at "The Calling" by the time DA:O came out), so the Archdemon can practically attack everywhere in Ferelden unopposed. In fact, the horde of darkspawn was pretty active that year. Its only that it focused its attacks to the south of Ferelden. The West Hills and "most of the south" were overrun by the time the Landsmeet took place, according to Arl Wulf. As well as Gwaren before that, if Bodhan's rumors are to be believed. Seeing the location of the Blightlands (central and southern Ferelden surrounding Lothering), that means the darkspawn also had overrun most of the Hinterlands, the Southron Hills, and the southern part of the Bannorn as well. And we know by DA:I that the horde went as far as to Crestwood (a region located to the north of Lake Calenhad) before the Blight was ended. Seeing the map of Ferelden, that's a lot of territory conquered by the darkspawn during the Fifth Blight. The horde didn't attacked the Redcliffe until the end of the game because plot. And we know that was the diversionary tactic, because the main horde was heading to Denerim (and they had the whole way for themselves, as they already had conquered the whole Southron Hills by that point). So, the horde was pretty active, and Urthemiel wasn't wasting his time the whole year. He conquered at least the southern half of Ferelden (sans the plot-shielded Hinterlands near Redcliffe), and part of the north, unopposed. It just that the plot didn't allowed us, the player, to see its advance, with the exception of the instances where it mattered to the story Bioware was trying to tell.
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Post by Abraxas on May 4, 2017 3:44:35 GMT
One that was mentioned into another Thread.There is no way to prove that Alistair is son of Maric to the nobility because Maric is not in the game,so why they just take it for granted at the Landsmeet just because Eamon say so? I think that's nonsense that they allowed him to take the crown like that,I mean if it was that easy,why not take a pesant,dress him well and support him as the last living son of Maric? That's why for me all ending with Alistair king don't make sense. Reading my last post, I didn't addressed your plot hole at all. So, to the point: why they just take it for granted at the Landsmeet just because Eamon say so? Because there was a Blight two steps beyond their doorstep. They needed a leader to lead the armies and defend the country, and at the moment, Alistair had the strongest political backing: Eamon (that is a respected noble in Ferelden) and his loyalists (Teagan and others that we didn't saw in game, but that is implied they existed; without them, the whole plot of the Civil War is meaningless); the nobles that the HoF has gained into her/his pockets (you do a few quest in DA:O about this in Denerim). Loghain has lost most of his credibility and allies, while the HoF has gained a lot of credibility in Denerim thanks to his victories and stuff (like, turning the Crows into her/his favor, and stuff), that is completely normal seeing that he or she is backed up by its own private army that contains the dwarves of Orzammar —so, the backing of the King of Orzammar as well— a lot of dalish clans/werewolves (that have no political power, but are a force to be reckoned with), the Circle of Magi/Templar (same here —Chantry doesn't have political power in Ferelden according to lore), and potentially a small army of golems as well (if you're the pragmatic type). so its better to allow the majority to win this time if that means saving the hide from darkspawn swords. Anora is aware of this in the game, that's why she proposes her political alliance with the HoF. Even in the games where you dump Alistair for Anora, she only becomes Queen if the HoF allow it, for instance. So, if Alistair becomes king, is because the Fereldan nobles allowed it to ensure their survival. Then, a year later (9:31), when the Blight was over, they did that royal inquest to determine Alistair's true parentage (according to World of Thedas 2), because at that point survival was ensured and there was no necessity for this "bastard son" to remain as king, but, as I said in my earlier post, Alistair at this point was considered a Hero of the Blight by the people, and in Ferelden, are the commoners the ones who have the real power (according to lore, this is explained in both, World of Thedas and the tabletop RPG book). If the commoners want him as king, the nobles must abide (or lost a lot of farms and other resources in the process).
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Post by oyabun on May 4, 2017 15:27:13 GMT
I wasn't aware of the investigations made by the nobles post blight but that's proves they also had a problem with that.
If they needed a temporary leader/general to deal with the blight,then there was no need to make a new king,especially not Alister when they had already better candidates for the position(such as Eamon/Alfstanna/Tegan/Anora ecc all certified nobles)they only nedded a temporary general to deal with the blight.
Despite the investigations they were unable to prove he is a son of Maric,so why the heck is throne is still so stable? Loghain also was popular among the commoners, but that didn't stopped the nobles to challenge him with their own troops long before the Landsmeet of DAO.
Also about Urhtemiel not destroying Denerim as soon as he won Ostagar,I think that's just a plot hole. No matter where the protagonist goes,there is no trace of the Darkspaws in the game after Lothering.
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Post by Abraxas on May 4, 2017 16:05:06 GMT
Well, yes. Most of want happened in DAO is plot driven. But if you read the RPG book (be the second set, or the compilation*), they way the Blights progress is slow. Even if the Archdemon can command the horde, it takes time for him/her to reach the surface. In the meantime, the Horde acts as they see fit, led by the strongest darkspawn alphas. Darkspawn emissaries can commune with the Archdemon, and its their job to ensure that the alphas work for the Archdemon and not to increase their own power. So, even in a Blight, the darkspawn aren't truly unified until the Archdemon reach the surface. Urthemiel only got to the surface in the end of the game (because plot demanded it). By the time he got total control of the Horde, we see he is intelligent enough to fool even a seasoned Warden (Riordan) into believing that Redcliffe was the target, when Urthemiel wanted to wipe out the Fereldan power base (Denerim). Too bad that plot demanded Urthemiel must be killed as soon as he took part in the war. But this is poor writing, not a plot hole. Same for your Loghain stuff. One can only speculate here, because is really obvious that in a logical way, the civil war and the king/queen stuff was poorly handed in a story that is plot-driven. However, you have to take into account that one of the driving mottos of the Eamon faction is that they wanted a Theirin in the throne (Eamon says this to you after you reach his state in Denerim). And while is true that most of the nobles have no way to know Alistair is a Theirin, Eamon is sure about it (because Maric told him about it), and can move his allies and loyalists that way. And that is the reason of why the other nobles didn't appointed themselves to the throne, as well. None of them are Theirin, or members of a powerful family, and felt they had no right to be the new ruler of the land. This can be somehow confirmed by the fact that one of the main factors that made nobles ally with the Eamon faction in the civil war is that a few of them believed Loghain was grabbing a throne he had no right to. Despite the investigations they were unable to prove he is a son of Maric,so why the heck is throne is still so stable? Loghain also was popular among the commoners, but that didn't stopped the nobles to challenge him with their own troops long before the Landsmeet of DAO. Because the commoner stuff only happens after the Blight ends (that's the reason Alistair is regarded as a Hero of the Blight). By this time, Loghain was either dead or disgraced. As for the nobles acting against Loghain, one can only speculate that commoners saw that a leader that allowed the complete destruction of its own people (Lothering, Honnleath, Gwaren... heck, Gwaren! Loghain was Teyrn of Gwaren and did nothing to stop the darkspawn when they destroyed Gwaren), its not worth their concern anymore. In Ferelden, nobles have only one "job": protect the commoners. If they do not do their job... well, commoners will support the one who is able to do it. In this case the HoF (and Alistair, in the games you made him king). And seeing that the destruction of Gwaren is acknowledged by the story (as is mentioned by NPCs in the game), again, this is not plot hole. Just plain poor writing. *Now, I'm aware those books were written a few years after DA:O was released, but this means that at least a few authors saw the flaws in DA:O's plot and cared enough to try to fix them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2017 3:43:08 GMT
This isn't much of a plot hole, but more of a scripted dialogue goof up that had led to an amusing situation in the Awakening.
I was playing a female Cousland married to King Alistair.
Now there is a scene in Amaranthene when Anders meets a 'friend' of his that starts his personal quest. After their talk you can choose. 'A friend of yours?' dialogue. I picked it bearing in mind some mild sarcasm since it looked more like a shady deal person than a friend. To which he suddenly responded along the lines of 'O hoho don't get jealous now.'
I was like WHUAWHT?! Do you know WHO my husband is? I DEMAND 'punt him over the fence' dialogue option! D:
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Post by Sokemis on Aug 26, 2017 3:33:33 GMT
Probably not technically a plot hole, but one of those little things that has always bothered me: Alarith's reaction to the Tevinters in the alienage. According to the Wiki (can't remember how specifically it's mentioned in game) he and his family (who were killed when they were attacked by bandits on the road) were escaping slavery in Tevinter.
Then comes the "Unrest in the Alienage" quest. Tevinter mages have taken up residence literally right out side his door. Tons of elves have gone into the building the Tevinter "healers" are using, never to be seen or heard from again. And how does he react? "Oh I don't know what Shianni is so upset about. But you know how she is". Really?!?
Now I don't necessarily expect him to go all Fenris on us (them), but there should have been more of a fearful/distrusting/questioning reaction there. Needless to say, his role in the Alienage in general and that conversation in particular went much different in my head...
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Post by secretrare on Sept 3, 2017 11:18:13 GMT
Urthemiel only got to the surface in the end of the game (because plot demanded it). By the time he got total control of the Horde, we see he is intelligent enough to fool even a seasoned Warden (Riordan) into believing that Redcliffe was the target, when Urthemiel wanted to wipe out the Fereldan power base (Denerim). Too bad that plot demanded Urthemiel must be killed as soon as he took part in the war. But this is poor writing, not a plot hole. Having replayed DAO in a different manner,i came to the conclusion that it depends on what the player does. I did the Orzmarr questlines early in the game,and i unlocked the cutscenes of the AD being on the surface early in the game but he did nothing for the whole time. I also did the final battle in a different manner,I decided to not bother with the alpha general of the darkspawns that was in the alienage to fight directly the AD,and i got the cutscene in which Riordan injuried his wing(I also found Riordan's body and sword outside of Fort Drakon),later on I changed my mind and decided to return in the alienage (before to enter in fort Drakon) in oder to kill that general and I unlocked the cutscene with the Archdemon flying around the city and destroying the bridge with his wings who were completly restored
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Post by Norstaera on Sept 19, 2017 20:37:09 GMT
Urthemiel only got to the surface in the end of the game (because plot demanded it). By the time he got total control of the Horde, we see he is intelligent enough to fool even a seasoned Warden (Riordan) into believing that Redcliffe was the target, when Urthemiel wanted to wipe out the Fereldan power base (Denerim). Too bad that plot demanded Urthemiel must be killed as soon as he took part in the war. But this is poor writing, not a plot hole. Having replayed DAO in a different manner,i came to the conclusion that it depends on what the player does. I did the Orzmarr questlines early in the game,and i unlocked the cutscenes of the AD being on the surface early in the game but he did nothing for the whole time. I also did the final battle in a different manner,I decided to not bother with the alpha general of the darkspawns that was in the alienage to fight directly the AD,and i got the cutscene in which Riordan injuried his wing(I also found Riordan's body and sword outside of Fort Drakon),later on I changed my mind and decided to return in the alienage (before to enter in fort Drakon) in oder to kill that general and I unlocked the cutscene with the Archdemon flying around the city and destroying the bridge with his wings who were completly restored Was Urthemiel on the surface in Orzammar? I thought he was flying high in the caverns, those cave ceilings were pretty high up. However, if he was on the surface, that doesn't mean he was ready for his horde to fully deploy. As the only one who can fly he could have been scouting or 'stretching his wings'.
About the final battle, I can see why the devs didn't change the cutscenes on the off chance somebody would do something that appears to be illogical. (imo) If you decide to go straight for the Archdemon, most people aren't going to backtrack to take care of a general. That seems to diminish the urgency of getting to Archie.
Finally, about Alistair as king. He strongly resembles Cailan. Anora remarks on that herself 'it would be like marrying his twin' is, I think, the line. If she, who probably would prefer not to see the resemblance, recognizes it then it stands to reason that a great many others would as well. IIRC, not every noble wanted to investigate Alistair's lineage. I'm sure Howe supporters did, among others with political motivations. Also, Anora admits that Cailan knew Alistair was his brother. In Redcliffe, Alistair suggests that Loghain probably knows as well. It's not likely that only Cailan, Anora, and Loghain knew that Alistair was Maric's bastard.
That's my two cents for the day, or at least the moment.
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Post by oyabun on Sept 23, 2017 3:06:27 GMT
Having replayed DAO in a different manner,i came to the conclusion that it depends on what the player does. I did the Orzmarr questlines early in the game,and i unlocked the cutscenes of the AD being on the surface early in the game but he did nothing for the whole time. I also did the final battle in a different manner,I decided to not bother with the alpha general of the darkspawns that was in the alienage to fight directly the AD,and i got the cutscene in which Riordan injuried his wing(I also found Riordan's body and sword outside of Fort Drakon),later on I changed my mind and decided to return in the alienage (before to enter in fort Drakon) in oder to kill that general and I unlocked the cutscene with the Archdemon flying around the city and destroying the bridge with his wings who were completly restored Was Urthemiel on the surface in Orzammar? I thought he was flying high in the caverns, those cave ceilings were pretty high up. However, if he was on the surface, that doesn't mean he was ready for his horde to fully deploy. As the only one who can fly he could have been scouting or 'stretching his wings'.
About the final battle, I can see why the devs didn't change the cutscenes on the off chance somebody would do something that appears to be illogical. (imo) If you decide to go straight for the Archdemon, most people aren't going to backtrack to take care of a general. That seems to diminish the urgency of getting to Archie.
Finally, about Alistair as king. He strongly resembles Cailan. Anora remarks on that herself 'it would be like marrying his twin' is, I think, the line. If she, who probably would prefer not to see the resemblance, recognizes it then it stands to reason that a great many others would as well. IIRC, not every noble wanted to investigate Alistair's lineage. I'm sure Howe supporters did, among others with political motivations. Also, Anora admits that Cailan knew Alistair was his brother. In Redcliffe, Alistair suggests that Loghain probably knows as well. It's not likely that only Cailan, Anora, and Loghain knew that Alistair was Maric's bastard.
That's my two cents for the day, or at least the moment.I don't think that's illogical.The choice to try to eliminate the general alpha in the alienage on a second thought may be rationalized by the fact that the AD is not an urgency as it was before Riordan injuried it's wing;since he can't fly one may desire to eliminate that general before it organize more darkspawns when the AD can't fly and thetefore support him from the sky anymore.Deve didn't changed because forgot about it,not because they wanted that result,which is a bug. The AD appears on the surface after Orzamarr,and he already had an organized army,in fact he had two:the one thay was under Orzamarr(in the dame scene with it)and another that won Ostagar,that's because this AD was awakened 6th month before DAO and not at the beginning of the game. Loghain knowledge about Alistair is not reliable in DAO because there is a plot hole in which he doesn't know his mother,while he should according to the books.
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Post by cooldude on Sept 24, 2017 11:33:08 GMT
One that comes to mind is the part of the game where you confront the desire demon at Eamon's place. The player is given the option, if they haven't already, to go back to the circle to get help from the mages to expel the demon from Conner. The problem is that going back to the mages completely destroys the urgency of the situation. Here you have a child that is possessed by a demon powerful enough to posses an entire town, and raise the dead, and the the warden and his/her team just leave it, when the story has presented a situation that needs immediate attention; Doesn't make sense.
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Post by Sokemis on Sept 24, 2017 13:24:14 GMT
One that comes to mind is the part of the game where you confront the desire demon at Eamon's place. The player is given the option, if they haven't already, to go back to the circle to get help from the mages to expel the demon from Conner. The problem is that going back to the mages completely destroys the urgency of the situation. Here you have a child that is possessed by a demon powerful enough to posses an entire town, and raise the dead, and the the warden and his/her team just leave it, when the story has presented a situation that needs immediate attention; Doesn't make sense. I've always thought there should have been a consequence for taking that option - like the demon rises up and kills part of the town, or all the soldiers that followed you into the castle, or something. You're leaving Connor/the demon in the "capable" hands of Teagan, who last time he faced it got himself mind-controlled. The demon has to know you're going to the Circle for a way to destroy it.... it's not going to just sit there twiddling its thumbs waiting for your return - it's going to fight back while it can.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Sept 25, 2017 14:20:28 GMT
One that comes to mind is the part of the game where you confront the desire demon at Eamon's place. The player is given the option, if they haven't already, to go back to the circle to get help from the mages to expel the demon from Conner. The problem is that going back to the mages completely destroys the urgency of the situation. Here you have a child that is possessed by a demon powerful enough to posses an entire town, and raise the dead, and the the warden and his/her team just leave it, when the story has presented a situation that needs immediate attention; Doesn't make sense. That's not a plot hole . The deisre demon is left guarded by the knights,some mages (jowan and optionally Wynne) alongside the fact that the demon appears only when the child is stressed(and his mother stressed him a lot).So if he is left in peace in his chamber the desire demon will not appear,and in fact the demon does indeed appear directly only if the child is directly stressed by the warden.
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Post by Superhik on Oct 1, 2017 16:49:10 GMT
Origins had one large plothole and it went by Loghain.
It had a neat backstory, but nothing about his actions made any sense. Like they realize they needed a villain, so they forced him into the plot. Why blame the wardens for "betrayal"( who got themselves killed), act as abrasive tyrant( he already had military de facto power as general and queen's father), his association with Howe ( who slaughtered everyone in castle) indicates clear planning ahead( and some hints in the camp), etc.
You could cover it with "lust for power"/insanity...but this falls apart if you spare his life afterwards.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 3, 2017 19:17:00 GMT
The problem with Loghain is that the main motivation for his action was put in the DLC Return to Ostagar. Without it his actions are inexplicable and the juicy gossip you get in camp about the King and Loghain arguing about the Queen goes nowhere. Then even more stupid, if he is with you when you go to Ostagar he seems surprised by the revelation over Celene, which ruins the justification again.
Another thing that might have explained his paranoia about Orlais a bit more would have been a reference to previous Blights when Orlais came to the aid of beleaguered states and then took over once the Blight was ended instead of returning home. This happened with the Anderfels in the 2nd Blight and Nevarra in the 3rd Blight. They only didn't take over anywhere after the 4th Blight because they declined to get involved as it wasn't really affecting them and presumably didn't feel anywhere was worth helping (invading) at that time.
The DLC also explained a brief remark by Howe to Cousland when you confront him in the dungeons of his castle in Denerim and he accuses your father of betraying Ferelden. Now at the beginning I seem to recall that Bryce has just returned from visiting Orlais. Clearly Cailan would need someone trustworthy to carry his missives to Celene and bring her reply and reading between the lines, that person was Bryce. Now we have some sort of justification for Howe as well, beyond just being an evil bastard and also why Loghain might have been willing to turn a blind eye.
My Cousland spared Loghain's life because he was planning on marrying Anora and becoming king, so he thought it would make her more kindly disposed towards him if he showed mercy to her father, particularly as she had emphasised she felt he wasn't in his right mind. Having found the documents about Cailan, he did sympathise somewhat with his paranoia as Cailan clearly was planning on selling out Ferelden, at the encouragement of Eamon. It proved a useful move and Loghain ended up approving of him and volunteering to do the US, thus removing any need to co-operate with Morrigan.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2017 8:42:56 GMT
Alistair doesn't have to end up a wandering drunk. That only happens if you do put Anora on the throne without him and he is unhardened (I believe a hardened Alistair will lead a revolt). It is possible to make him either joint ruler or lone ruler and have him admit at the end that sparing Loghain was probably for the best (seeing as he does the US).
Ignoring the Blight/darkspawn is the biggest weakness in the Loghain plot. Even allowing for the fact that he genuinely thought that the battle was lost at Ostagar, surely the veteran commander would have regrouped and then harried the darkspawn as they progressed north, using the guerrilla tactics that he had perfected in the rebellion. If he thought it wasn't a real Blight, all the more reason to eliminate the enemy as quickly as possible rather than let them spread over and corrupt all of Ferelden. Instead he retreated to Denerim and effectively did nothing, even when they were sacking his own Teynr.
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Post by Kei on Oct 4, 2017 14:31:53 GMT
Alistair doesn't have to end up a wandering drunk. The warden doesn't have to care about what he becomes,it's already a privilege if he gets alive from his desertion.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2017 15:49:59 GMT
That is perfectly true. In fact since Riorden is effectively the senior Warden of the 3 of them, the Hero is doing the right thing in following his lead and Alistair should have accepted the decision since he had dodged being leader originally. Since as a Warden he shouldn't even have been considered for the role of head of state (Teagan please note Eamon set a precedent there that overrode earlier history with Sophie Dryden), Alistair was doubly in the wrong for abandoning his post.
The Wardens, though, turn out to be an incredibly strange military order in that people seem able to leave with very little repercussions. Fiona may have been cured of the taint but she was still a member of the organisation but apparently it was okay for her to leave with the deliberate intent of causing trouble in the Circles. Anders was able to desert and whilst originally thought dead, was later seen by members of the Order and yet no action taken. He also went on to cause civil unrest. Alistair was able to desert and end up wandering the Freemarches as a drunk or lead a revolt or become King (the latter being the only real reason the Wardens might turn a blind eye). It would seem the only poor soul who gets killed for not wanting to take the Joining is Jory as according to Duncan once you agree verbally to join, you are in and aren't allowed out.
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Post by Norstaera on Oct 4, 2017 16:11:45 GMT
Actually, Fiona was eventually given back to the Circle after the Wardens gave up trying to figure out why she became un-Wardened and couldn't successfully re-Join her. She was something of a pariah for having somehow escaped a Warden's fate.
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Post by Superhik on Oct 5, 2017 11:00:21 GMT
The problem with Loghain is that the main motivation for his action was put in the DLC Return to Ostagar. Without it his actions are inexplicable and the juicy gossip you get in camp about the King and Loghain arguing about the Queen goes nowhere. Then even more stupid, if he is with you when you go to Ostagar he seems surprised by the revelation over Celene, which ruins the justification again. Another thing that might have explained his paranoia about Orlais a bit more would have been a reference to previous Blights when Orlais came to the aid of beleaguered states and then took over once the Blight was ended instead of returning home. This happened with the Anderfels in the 2nd Blight and Nevarra in the 3rd Blight. They only didn't take over anywhere after the 4th Blight because they declined to get involved as it wasn't really affecting them and presumably didn't feel anywhere was worth helping (invading) at that time. The DLC also explained a brief remark by Howe to Cousland when you confront him in the dungeons of his castle in Denerim and he accuses your father of betraying Ferelden. Now at the beginning I seem to recall that Bryce has just returned from visiting Orlais. Clearly Cailan would need someone trustworthy to carry his missives to Celene and bring her reply and reading between the lines, that person was Bryce. Now we have some sort of justification for Howe as well, beyond just being an evil bastard and also why Loghain might have been willing to turn a blind eye. My Cousland spared Loghain's life because he was planning on marrying Anora and becoming king, so he thought it would make her more kindly disposed towards him if he showed mercy to her father, particularly as she had emphasised she felt he wasn't in his right mind. Having found the documents about Cailan, he did sympathise somewhat with his paranoia as Cailan clearly was planning on selling out Ferelden, at the encouragement of Eamon. It proved a useful move and Loghain ended up approving of him and volunteering to do the US, thus removing any need to co-operate with Morrigan. Sorry, I don't buy that. If he had any "honorable" intentions, no way in hell he'd have any dealings with Howe. The guy butchered everyone in Cousland castle...servants, children, etc. And he did it in a thoroughly despicable and cowardly fashion, waiting for army to depart for Ostagar( kind of "odd" to disobey king and instead attack one of his vassals...that's treason on it's own). It's pretty damn clear ( from other npcs in game) that everyone knew what he did. And awfully convenient for Loghain, by taking out his opposition ( next to Eamon) even before Ostagar. How did Howe become Loghain's right hand after that..they had no political/family ties or even love for one another and from what we've seen, Loghain's used him entirely to do his "dirty work".
I know Gaider said something that went "Politics makes strange bedfellows"...but it doesn't add up: Howe's actions before Ostagar show it was all premeditated.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 5, 2017 14:17:09 GMT
This being the case isn't it strange that there aren't more people objecting to working with him or anyone associated with him? The fact is that there was the potential there for a much more intricate story with far more believable motivations than we were given. I've read elsewhere that allegedly DG claimed the plot line of DAO was going to be far more political and centred around Loghain rather than defeating the Blight, the darkspawn only being introduced with the arch-demon as the big evil later on in development. If this was the case, it would explain why the motivations lying behind the actions of Loghain and Howe weren't more fully developed.
A lot of things that happen in the game show their actions were pre-meditated. Take the use of Jowan to poison Arl Eamon. First, Loghain had to be aware that Isolde was looking for a tutor for Connor. Then he had to point Jowan in her direction. This actually doesn't add up. If she was looking for an ordinary tutor then Jowan wasn't qualified. If Loghain knew that she was looking for a mage tutor, then that throws up a new set of problems as to how he knew that Connor was a mage, yet Eamon was ignorant of the fact. Jowan had to be recruited far enough back in time that he could poison Eamon and no cure could be found, so Isolde sent out the knights to look for the sacred ashes. This had already occurred well before we arrive in Lothering, yet apparently she hadn't thought to inform Cailan of his illness, since he was still expecting him to arrive with his forces.
As you say, whilst these actions were attributed to Loghain, they must have been done on his behalf by Howe after Loghain had left with the King for Ostagar, which means not only was everything pre-meditated but Loghain was placing an awful lot of trust in Howe.
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Post by secretrare on Oct 10, 2017 1:01:35 GMT
In the original plot of DAO Loghain was mind-controlled by the Archdemon and everything he did was premeditated to favor the Archdemon ,that includes the poisoning of Eamon and everything else Loghain and Howe did. The plot however was changed later in development,except with some parts in Ostagar,so the final product still had a portion of the first plot-line that wasn't properly removed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 18:42:34 GMT
In the original plot of DAO Loghain was mind-controlled by the Archdemon and everything he did was premeditated to favor the Archdemon ,that includes the poisoning of Eamon and everything else Loghain and Howe did. The plot however was changed later in development,except with some parts in Ostagar,so the final product still had a portion of the first plot-line that wasn't properly removed. Seems stupid, but you even go to the wiki to read the cutted content, and you get amazed of how much ideas they had for it.
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Post by phoray on Oct 16, 2017 23:47:24 GMT
Bolded part would have been so ridiculous.
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