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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 19:07:03 GMT
Regardless of your thoughts on that matter, he still didn't fully trust me so I didn't trust him either Total trust is stupid, at least in similar situations. You see? You betrayed him. Well if he told me I wouldn't have betrayed him and if we are such good friends he should've told me, if we aren't good friends why should I care?
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Post by Catilina on Apr 27, 2017 19:32:10 GMT
Total trust is stupid, at least in similar situations. You see? You betrayed him. Well if he told me I wouldn't have betrayed him and if we are such good friends he should've told me, if we aren't good friends why should I care? Normally you would be right. But the Circle's not normal. Jowan's case is a good example. Paranoia, distrust, secrecy – and Bioware always need some betrayal to prove the "gray morality": "You see, the Circle is good, but who wants to escape, is bad". It was good to see, that he was able to escape, and was sad, that Loghain used his desire of freedom. The whole Circle story is about this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 19:41:05 GMT
Well if he told me I wouldn't have betrayed him and if we are such good friends he should've told me, if we aren't good friends why should I care? Normally you would be right. But the Circle's not normal. Jowan's case is a good example. Paranoia, distrust, secrecy – and Bioware always need some betrayal to prove the "gray morality": "You see, the Circle is good, but who wants to escape, is bad". It was good to see, that he was able to escape, and was sad, that Loghain used his desire of freedom. The whole Circle story is about this. That depends on how you feel about circles or how you roleplay as
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Post by Catilina on Apr 27, 2017 20:01:17 GMT
Normally you would be right. But the Circle's not normal. Jowan's case is a good example. Paranoia, distrust, secrecy – and Bioware always need some betrayal to prove the "gray morality": "You see, the Circle is good, but who wants to escape, is bad". It was good to see, that he was able to escape, and was sad, that Loghain used his desire of freedom. The whole Circle story is about this. That depends on how you feel about circles or how you roleplay as As a healthy Circle Mage? Of course, I hate the imprisonment. How else? I don't like to play paranoid, self-loathing heroes, but perhaps, would be an interesting point of view.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 20:19:42 GMT
That depends on how you feel about circles or how you roleplay as As a healthy Circle Mage? Of course, I hate the imprisonment. How else? I don't like to play paranoid, self-loathing heroes, but perhaps, would be an interesting point of view. Personally I don't like playing as mages but suit yourself
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Post by Catilina on Apr 27, 2017 20:46:11 GMT
As a healthy Circle Mage? Of course, I hate the imprisonment. How else? I don't like to play paranoid, self-loathing heroes, but perhaps, would be an interesting point of view. Personally I don't like playing as mages but suit yourself My First DA protagonist was a Surana, I liked Irving, and Wynne too, but I didn't like, what they represent. Jowan's fear, this miserable apprentice in the Circle Chantry full of guilt was shocking and shows the Circle's cruelty. This isn't gray morality, this is clarly black. That's why I can not support it: "Magic is a curse, and I pray every day for forgiveness from the Maker."(Keili is a religious Circle mage apprentice found in the Apprentice Quarters near the Chantry chapel of the Circle Tower.) Codex entry: Lake Calenhad.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 29, 2017 4:01:12 GMT
Regardless of your thoughts on that matter, he still didn't fully trust me so I didn't trust him either Amell/Surana is Irving's apprentice and star-pupil. Even if they've been best friends for years, Jowan could not risk telling them all the details of their plan to escape the Circle, because of the possibility they might have decided to go and tell Irving. Same reason why Jowan kept his relationship with Lily secret from his friend, because he didn't want it anyone to find out and risk getting her in trouble. As for Jowan not telling us about being a Blood Mage, who would admit to that? Even after he does use it against the Templars, he claims that he only dabbled in the hope it would make him a better mage. This fits with his earlier comment that the Circle has been known to make Tranquil certain apprentices they feel "aren't strong enough" in their magic. He even believes this was one of the reasons he hasn't been called for his Harrowing yet, despite having been at the Circle far longer than Amell/Surana. It does seem that secrecy tends to become a trait of anyone who's lived in the Circle, likely as a result of rarely getting any privacy whatsoever from either their Mage colleagues or the Templars constantly watching them. We even saw a conman exploit this trait to sell the "sole copy" of the Deus Vi Eternus to several Senior Enchanters, banking on their predilection for secrecy to keep his fraud hidden, because none of them would want to share any potential discoveries with anyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 6:34:36 GMT
Regardless of your thoughts on that matter, he still didn't fully trust me so I didn't trust him either Amell/Surana is Irving's apprentice and star-pupil. Even if they've been best friends for years, Jowan could not risk telling them all the details of their plan to escape the Circle, because of the possibility they might have decided to go and tell Irving. Same reason why Jowan kept his relationship with Lily secret from his friend, because he didn't want it anyone to find out and risk getting her in trouble. As for Jowan not telling us about being a Blood Mage, who would admit to that? Even after he does use it against the Templars, he claims that he only dabbled in the hope it would make him a better mage. This fits with his earlier comment that the Circle has been known to make Tranquil certain apprentices they feel "aren't strong enough" in their magic. He even believes this was one of the reasons he hasn't been called for his Harrowing yet, despite having been at the Circle far longer than Amell/Surana. It does seem that secrecy tends to become a trait of anyone who's lived in the Circle, likely as a result of rarely getting any privacy whatsoever from either their Mage colleagues or the Templars constantly watching them. We even saw a conman exploit this trait to sell the "sole copy" of the Deus Vi Eternus to several Senior Enchanters, banking on their predilection for secrecy to keep his fraud hidden, because none of them would want to share any potential discoveries with anyone else. Then it's rather idiotic of him to ask Irving's star pupil to help him escape. And "I thought it would make me stronger" is one of the main reasons that blood magic is forbidden. We meet lots of not strong mages in inquisition and none of them are tranquil, so it's his own idiocy that he ended up dead in the end, because Irving knew he was a blood mage all along
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 8:50:42 GMT
Amell/Surana is Irving's apprentice and star-pupil.
Even if they've been best friends for years, Jowan could not risk telling them all the details of their plan to escape the Circle, because of the possibility they might have decided to go and tell Irving. Same reason why Jowan kept his relationship with Lily secret from his friend, because he didn't want it anyone to find out and risk getting her in trouble.
As for Jowan not telling us about being a Blood Mage, who would admit to that?
Even after he does use it against the Templars, he claims that he only dabbled in the hope it would make him a better mage. This fits with his earlier comment that the Circle has been known to make Tranquil certain apprentices they feel "aren't strong enough" in their magic. He even believes this was one of the reasons he hasn't been called for his Harrowing yet, despite having been at the Circle far longer than Amell/Surana.
It does seem that secrecy tends to become a trait of anyone who's lived in the Circle, likely as a result of rarely getting any privacy whatsoever from either their Mage colleagues or the Templars constantly watching them.
We even saw a conman exploit this trait to sell the "sole copy" of the Deus Vi Eternus to several Senior Enchanters, banking on their predilection for secrecy to keep his fraud hidden, because none of them would want to share any potential discoveries with anyone else. Then it's rather idiotic of him to ask Irving's star pupil to help him escape. And "I thought it would make me stronger" is one of the main reasons that blood magic is forbidden. We meet lots of not strong mages in inquisition and none of them are tranquil, so it's his own idiocy that he ended up dead in the end, because Irving knew he was a blood mage all along Jowan was afraid he'd be Tranquil. This is fear, not knowledge. Can be irrational. I can imagine, that asking a friend to help escape with his love, would much easier, than speak about the blood magic. Jowan probably wouldn't able to organize the escape alone, so, they need some help. And the escape was only Jowan and Lily's secret, the blood magic is NOT his secret. AND: Lily is a Chantry sister, hate the blood magic, and fear from it. Likely, Jowan learned this before Lily, and doesn't want to use, just live freely. So: Jowan have NOT only one reason to NOT speaking about blood magic, but still asking for help in their escape
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 9:59:41 GMT
Then it's rather idiotic of him to ask Irving's star pupil to help him escape. And "I thought it would make me stronger" is one of the main reasons that blood magic is forbidden. We meet lots of not strong mages in inquisition and none of them are tranquil, so it's his own idiocy that he ended up dead in the end, because Irving knew he was a blood mage all along Jowan was afraid he'd be Tranquil. This is fear, not knowledge. Can be irrational. I can imagine, that asking a friend to help escape with his love, would much easier, than speak about the blood magic. Jowan probably wouldn't able to organize the escape alone, so, they need some help. And the escape was only Jowan and Lily's secret, the blood magic is NOT his secret. AND: Lily is a Chantry sister, hate the blood magic, and fear from it. Likely, Jowan learned this before Lily, and doesn't want to use, just live freely. So: Jowan have NOT only one reason to NOT speaking about blood magic, but still asking for help in their escape You can defend him all you like but Jowan reminds me too much of DA2 Anders, both were weak and stupid PEOPLE let alone being mages and I wouldn't have felt sorry for them if they made tranquil
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 10:51:01 GMT
Jowan was afraid he'd be Tranquil. This is fear, not knowledge. Can be irrational. I can imagine, that asking a friend to help escape with his love, would much easier, than speak about the blood magic. Jowan probably wouldn't able to organize the escape alone, so, they need some help. And the escape was only Jowan and Lily's secret, the blood magic is NOT his secret. AND: Lily is a Chantry sister, hate the blood magic, and fear from it. Likely, Jowan learned this before Lily, and doesn't want to use, just live freely. So: Jowan have NOT only one reason to NOT speaking about blood magic, but still asking for help in their escape You can defend him all you like but Jowan reminds me too much of DA2 Anders, both were weak and stupid PEOPLE let alone being mages and I wouldn't have felt sorry for them if they made tranquil Anders and Jowan was able to finish their Harrowing (Jowan didn't believe, but he was able to it), and was not even a coward. He afraid from the Harrowing, but offered his help for Connor. He was a blood mage, probably he didn't totally against the blood magic, this is not so unbelievable: in every Circles were blood mages. Anders was different, but you're right, he has basically the same purpose: live freely and in peace. He considers blood magic as evil thing, and probably blames blood mages for the reasons of Prison Circles. Anders was a spirit healer, this also requires high concentrations. He spent a year in solitary confinement (after his last escape before Vigil Keep), but he did not turn to blood magic. Anders was not a weak mage. No one of them was weak mage, but both of them have a big weakness: they wanted to live as everyone else. If the Circles do not exist, they would have been normal people. None of them wants power over the other people.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 12:02:42 GMT
You can defend him all you like but Jowan reminds me too much of DA2 Anders, both were weak and stupid PEOPLE let alone being mages and I wouldn't have felt sorry for them if they made tranquil Anders and Jowan was able to finish their Harrowing (Jowan didn't believe, but he was able to it), and was not even a coward. He afraid from the Harrowing, but offered his help for Connor. He was a blood mage, probably he didn't totally against the blood magic, this is not so unbelievable: in every Circles were blood mages. Anders was different, but you're right, he has basically the same purpose: live freely and in peace. He considers blood magic as evil thing, and probably blames blood mages for the reasons of Prison Circles. Anders was a spirit healer, this also requires high concentrations. He spent a year in solitary confinement (after his last escape before Vigil Keep), but he did not turn to blood magic. Anders was not a weak mage. No one of them was weak mage, but both of them have a big weakness: they wanted to live as everyone else. If the Circles do not exist, they would have been normal people. None of them wants power over the other people. Jowan didn't pass his harrowing and possible he couldn't have, if he could've Irving would have make him do it. He help Connor because he didn't have any other choice and his original intend was to poison Eamon. Anders wasn't a blood mage but that doesn't mean he wasn't weak. He took a spirit inside him and allowed it to change himself while turning Justice into a demon, so yes both were weak and both are dead for me you know who are not weak mages: Irving Bethany Wynne Fiona Morrigan Dorian Vivienne Rhys Adrian and these are just on the top of my head. Some of them are libertarians too but they didn't poison political figures, made Redcliff fight the undead, made deals with spirits and later became abominations or start a war noone could win. It's not about blood magic or wanting to live free, DA2 Anders and Jowan are weak people. But not Awakening Anders that guy is awesome
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 14:50:06 GMT
Anders and Jowan was able to finish their Harrowing (Jowan didn't believe, but he was able to it), and was not even a coward. He afraid from the Harrowing, but offered his help for Connor. He was a blood mage, probably he didn't totally against the blood magic, this is not so unbelievable: in every Circles were blood mages. Anders was different, but you're right, he has basically the same purpose: live freely and in peace. He considers blood magic as evil thing, and probably blames blood mages for the reasons of Prison Circles. Anders was a spirit healer, this also requires high concentrations. He spent a year in solitary confinement (after his last escape before Vigil Keep), but he did not turn to blood magic. Anders was not a weak mage. No one of them was weak mage, but both of them have a big weakness: they wanted to live as everyone else. If the Circles do not exist, they would have been normal people. None of them wants power over the other people. Jowan didn't pass his harrowing and possible he couldn't have, if he could've Irving would have make him do it. He help Connor because he didn't have any other choice and his original intend was to poison Eamon. Anders wasn't a blood mage but that doesn't mean he wasn't weak. He took a spirit inside him and allowed it to change himself while turning Justice into a demon, so yes both were weak and both are dead for me you know who are not weak mages: Irving Bethany Wynne Fiona Morrigan Dorian Vivienne Rhys Adrian and these are just on the top of my head. Some of them are libertarians too but they didn't poison political figures, made Redcliff fight the undead, made deals with spirits and later became abominations or start a war noone could win. It's not about blood magic or wanting to live free, DA2 Anders and Jowan are weak people. But not Awakening Anders that guy is awesome Jowan's intent was his freedom, Loghain's intent was to poison Eamon. As I said: Jowan's weakness was his desire of freedom, and his fear from tranquility. He was able to Harrowing, he was able to save Connor. This was his Harrowing, if the Warden let him do it. He asks for the redemption, he wants to save Connor. He's not coward. Awakening Anders a sad, angry man. He's not so much differs from DA2 Anders. His opinion has not changed. When Justice said, that he would be able to make something for their fellows, he never was able to stop to think about it. This was Awakening Anders, without Justice. HE wanted this revolution, not only Justice, Justice only strengthened him. The only difference is Justice's presence inside him, ofc, his behave changed a bit: he more judgmental, determined, and no longer used his charm to survive. He did not need it. Finally, he could have allowed himself to be an asshole like he just wanted to be. I think this could be a relief... Justice corrupted, (Anders blames himself for it, but this isn't right, at least not totally right. Justice's corruption already started, when he left the Fade. The spirits don't understand the people, the "real world" is difficult to them. The Justice's not so clear anymore, and the people's emotions are hard, and Justice isn't the Spirit of Compassion. The spirits don't have emotions as people, don't even know the emotions of people, only can mirrored them, and probably can learn. Justice learned friendship, mercy and anger, from Kristoff's memory, Anders and Warden's companions. This knowledge mean his "corruption". But didn't turn into a demon. Justice and vengeance's borders may blur. You do not know where the justice ends and where the vengeance begins.
Jowan and Anders both have a weakness (strong desire for freedom), but none of them is a weak mage. This both could have safely with their talents without prison-Circles. Your examples are very good, these are strong people, all, someone better and stronger people than Anders, and definitely stronger as Jowan, and older, and have a different background. Every people's different. Irving is an old man. Probably broken, but still strong. Have a purpose in the Circle. A servant, but benevolent, at least mostly. Bethany had the purpose of being prisoner of the Circle, this makes her strong, and she never was a slave before. Much more easy to break a child, than an adult person, who choose his/her destiny. Morrigan never was a slave, but you can imagine her in the Circle? She would be never Wynne, who accepted her fate (and Wynne has never a safe home, his childhood was a nightmare). True, Morrigan never would be able to start a rebellion. She doesn't interest people, who don't want to free themselves. She says those people does not deserve freedom. Vivienne just a power hungry hypocrite, who use people. She is really dangerous. I think, if she becomes Divine, she kills much more people (rebels), than Anders, but I know, who have an army, is not a murderer. Dorian wasn't a slave of the Circle, we don't know, how he would behave if the Templars kidnapping him in his childhood. He's not live in Southern-Thedas. He's a very bad example in this case. But, he would be a good example for me. He's a live example, that the Mages can live freely, if no one wants to explain to them that their talent is a curse. He hates blood magic, because his father wants to use on him, and he saw, what easy to solve everything with blood magic. I didn't read Asunder.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 15:02:14 GMT
Jowan didn't pass his harrowing and possible he couldn't have, if he could've Irving would have make him do it. He help Connor because he didn't have any other choice and his original intend was to poison Eamon. Anders wasn't a blood mage but that doesn't mean he wasn't weak. He took a spirit inside him and allowed it to change himself while turning Justice into a demon, so yes both were weak and both are dead for me you know who are not weak mages: Irving Bethany Wynne Fiona Morrigan Dorian Vivienne Rhys Adrian and these are just on the top of my head. Some of them are libertarians too but they didn't poison political figures, made Redcliff fight the undead, made deals with spirits and later became abominations or start a war noone could win. It's not about blood magic or wanting to live free, DA2 Anders and Jowan are weak people. But not Awakening Anders that guy is awesome Jowan's intent was his freedom, Loghain's intent was to poison Eamon. As I said: Jowan's weakness was his desire of freedom, and his fear from tranquility. He was able to Harrowing, he was able to save Connor. This was his Harrowing, if the Warden let him do it. He asks for the redemption, he wants to save Connor. He's not coward. Awakening Anders a sad, angry man. He's not so much differs from DA2 Anders. His opinion has not changed. When Justice said, that he would be able to make something for their fellows, he never was able to stop to think about it. This was Awakening Anders, without Justice. HE wanted this revolution, not only Justice, Justice only strengthened him. The only difference is Justice's presence inside him, ofc, his behave changed a bit: he more judgmental, determined, and no longer used his charm to survive. He did not need it. Finally, he could have allowed himself to be an asshole like he just wanted to be. I think this could be a relief... Justice corrupted, (Anders blames himself for it, but this isn't right, at least not totally right. Justice's corruption already started, when he left the Fade. The spirits don't understand the people, the "real world" is difficult to them. The Justice's not so clear anymore, and the people's emotions are hard, and Justice isn't the Spirit of Compassion. The spirits don't have emotions as people, don't even know the emotions of people, only can mirrored them, and probably can learn. Justice learned friendship, mercy and anger, from Kristoff's memory, Anders and Warden's companions. This knowledge mean his "corruption". But didn't turn into a demon. Justice and vengeance's borders may blur. You do not know where the justice ends and where the vengeance begins.
Jowan and Anders both have a weakness (strong desire for freedom), but none of them is a weak mage. This both could have safely with their talents without prison-Circles. Your examples are very good, these are strong people, all, someone better and stronger people than Anders, and definitely stronger as Jowan, and older, and have a different background. Every people's different. Irving is an old man. Probably broken, but still strong. Have a purpose in the Circle. A servant, but benevolent, at least mostly. Bethany had the purpose of being prisoner of the Circle, this makes her strong, and she never was a slave before. Much more easy to break a child, than an adult person, who choose his/her destiny. Morrigan never was a slave, but you can imagine her in the Circle? She would be never Wynne, who accepted her fate (and Wynne has never a safe home, his childhood was a nightmare). True, Morrigan never would be able to start a rebellion. She doesn't interest people, who don't want to free themselves. She says those people does not deserve freedom. Vivienne just a power hungry hypocrite, who use people. She is really dangerous. I think, if she becomes Divine, she kills much more people (rebels), than Anders, but I know, who have an army, is not a murderer. Dorian wasn't a slave of the Circle, we don't know, how he would behave if the Templars kidnapping him in his childhood. He's not live in Southern-Thedas. He's a very bad example in this case. But, he would be a good example for me. He's a live example, that the Mages can live freely, if no one wants to explain to them that their talent is a curse. He hates blood magic, because his father wants to use on him, and he saw, what easy to solve everything with blood magic. I didn't read Asunder. Jowan's weakness was being extremely stupid, he already destroyed his phylactry he didn't need to poison Eamon. And none of the mages are slaves you probably don't really know what slavery is. To give a better example; Fenris hates slavery and still supports circles. His views does go to some extreme levels because living in Tevinter and all but he does make some good points. I really don't need those examples. Do you remember Meave (or something like that) in Inquisition who researches creatures? She isn't a strong mage but still haven't made tranquil because it's not about your magical powers, it's about your willpower which is where Jowan fails to see
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 15:13:14 GMT
Jowan's intent was his freedom, Loghain's intent was to poison Eamon. As I said: Jowan's weakness was his desire of freedom, and his fear from tranquility. He was able to Harrowing, he was able to save Connor. This was his Harrowing, if the Warden let him do it. He asks for the redemption, he wants to save Connor. He's not coward. Awakening Anders a sad, angry man. He's not so much differs from DA2 Anders. His opinion has not changed. When Justice said, that he would be able to make something for their fellows, he never was able to stop to think about it. This was Awakening Anders, without Justice. HE wanted this revolution, not only Justice, Justice only strengthened him. The only difference is Justice's presence inside him, ofc, his behave changed a bit: he more judgmental, determined, and no longer used his charm to survive. He did not need it. Finally, he could have allowed himself to be an asshole like he just wanted to be. I think this could be a relief... Justice corrupted, (Anders blames himself for it, but this isn't right, at least not totally right. Justice's corruption already started, when he left the Fade. The spirits don't understand the people, the "real world" is difficult to them. The Justice's not so clear anymore, and the people's emotions are hard, and Justice isn't the Spirit of Compassion. The spirits don't have emotions as people, don't even know the emotions of people, only can mirrored them, and probably can learn. Justice learned friendship, mercy and anger, from Kristoff's memory, Anders and Warden's companions. This knowledge mean his "corruption". But didn't turn into a demon. Justice and vengeance's borders may blur. You do not know where the justice ends and where the vengeance begins. Jowan and Anders both have a weakness (strong desire for freedom), but none of them is a weak mage. This both could have safely with their talents without prison-Circles.
Your examples are very good, these are strong people, all, someone better and stronger people than Anders, and definitely stronger as Jowan, and older, and have a different background. Every people's different. Irving is an old man. Probably broken, but still strong. Have a purpose in the Circle. A servant, but benevolent, at least mostly. Bethany had the purpose of being prisoner of the Circle, this makes her strong, and she never was a slave before. Much more easy to break a child, than an adult person, who choose his/her destiny. Morrigan never was a slave, but you can imagine her in the Circle? She would be never Wynne, who accepted her fate (and Wynne has never a safe home, his childhood was a nightmare). True, Morrigan never would be able to start a rebellion. She doesn't interest people, who don't want to free themselves. She says those people does not deserve freedom. Vivienne just a power hungry hypocrite, who use people. She is really dangerous. I think, if she becomes Divine, she kills much more people (rebels), than Anders, but I know, who have an army, is not a murderer. Dorian wasn't a slave of the Circle, we don't know, how he would behave if the Templars kidnapping him in his childhood. He's not live in Southern-Thedas. He's a very bad example in this case. But, he would be a good example for me. He's a live example, that the Mages can live freely, if no one wants to explain to them that their talent is a curse. He hates blood magic, because his father wants to use on him, and he saw, what easy to solve everything with blood magic.
I didn't read Asunder. Jowan's weakness was being extremely stupid, he already destroyed his phylactry he didn't need to poison Eamon. And none of the mages are slaves you probably don't really know what slavery is. To give a better example; Fenris hates slavery and still supports circles. His views does go to some extreme levels because living in Tevinter and all but he does make some good points. I really don't need those examples. Do you remember Meave (or something like that) in Inquisition who researches creatures? She isn't a strong mage but still haven't made tranquil because it's not about your magical powers, it's about your willpower which is where Jowan fails to see. Jowan is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but still able to control his magic. His phylactery may be destroyed, but his fear from Templars is not. Loghain used his fear. Fear of persecution is difficult to overcome. And do not forget, he escaped, he was a wanted apostate, even if his phylactery was destroyed. In fact, if Fenris join to Meredith first, later Hawke can convince him with "I assumed, that the freedom for slavery means something to you" – or something similar. So: Fenris capable of recognizing, that the Mages are slaves.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 15:39:31 GMT
Jowan's weakness was being extremely stupid, he already destroyed his phylactry he didn't need to poison Eamon. And none of the mages are slaves you probably don't really know what slavery is. To give a better example; Fenris hates slavery and still supports circles. His views does go to some extreme levels because living in Tevinter and all but he does make some good points. I really don't need those examples. Do you remember Meave (or something like that) in Inquisition who researches creatures? She isn't a strong mage but still haven't made tranquil because it's not about your magical powers, it's about your willpower which is where Jowan fails to see. Jowan is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but still able to control his magic. His phylactery may be destroyed, but his fear from Templars is not. Loghain used his fear. Fear of persecution is difficult to overcome. And do not forget, he escaped, he was a wanted apostate, even if his phylactery was destroyed. In fact, if Fenris join to Meredith first, later Hawke can convince him with "I assumed, that the freedom for slavery means something to you" – or something similar. So: Fenris capable of recognizing, that the Mages are slaves. How could the templars find him exactly? There was no way, unless they got some Russian settalites or something. And that's the thing he is easily manipulated and that's a sign of a weak character. That line for Fenris is a choice for him not to die, it isn't convincing at all. He defended that idea for 8 years and it doesn't seem likely for him to bail on his ideas just with one line. It's like if you side with templars and Merill sides with mages, but if you tell her that this n battle or something like that she joins the Templars
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 17:02:23 GMT
Jowan is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but still able to control his magic. His phylactery may be destroyed, but his fear from Templars is not. Loghain used his fear. Fear of persecution is difficult to overcome. And do not forget, he escaped, he was a wanted apostate, even if his phylactery was destroyed. In fact, if Fenris join to Meredith first, later Hawke can convince him with "I assumed, that the freedom for slavery means something to you" – or something similar. So: Fenris capable of recognizing, that the Mages are slaves. How could the templars find him exactly? There was no way, unless they got some Russian settalites or something. And that's the thing he is easily manipulated and that's a sign of a weak character. That line for Fenris is a choice for him not to die, it isn't convincing at all. He defended that idea for 8 years and it doesn't seem likely for him to bail on his ideas just with one line. It's like if you side with templars and Merill sides with mages, but if you tell her that this n battle or something like that she joins the Templars How could the city guards find any criminals exactly? They don't have phylacteries. The phylactery is a blood magic based leash, makes it very easy the Templars' work. But the lack of it does not make it impossible the pursuit. The Templars were able to catch most of the Starkhaven apostates. Merrill never shows any interest about the Circle Mages, only at the end. Merrill shows interesting only about the elves. She's not insensitive, just doesn't interest about it. Just as Dorian doesn't show any interest in the slaves' suffer. Everyone cares about his own business, but he expects the protagonist (Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor) to care for everyone.
But: Hawke can convince Merrill only with that s/he wants to protect the people, and only the Templars can restore the peace. (Of course, this is not true, because of Meredith) She's same as Fenris on the other side. She haven't an ideological conviction about the Chantry's politics and the Circles.
Fenris have fear, not ideological conviction. And he wants to leave his fear behind. He sees the Circles as some good thing, what keep the Mages away from him. I think, not a surprise, that he's happy with it. But he never denied, that the Mages are slaves:
Anders: You ever going to stop harping on the Mages here? Fenris: No. Anders: They aren’t what you saw in Tevinter. Fenris: The moment they are free, Mages will make themselves magisters. Anders: They’re slaves! You should want to help them. Fenris: I don’t.
He says he will not help, not that they are not slaves. He does not say that this is fair, he just likes it. This isn't same. Anders not capable of the fight for Templars, if Hawke doesn't crush him. Hawke doesn't need to crush Fenris to fight for Mages. At the end in Gallows, he doesn't worry anymore, Varric who worries. Fenris wants to win this battle. He doesn't fear from the lame Mages, he fears from powerful mages, who wants to use their magic to rule over people, but the Circles isn't able to prevent this, only able to be cruel toward the harmless Mages: Bethany, Fiona, Wynne... every Circle Mages, who you like suffered in the Circles. Someone was able to accept the leash, Fiona for example, doesn't. Bethany never liked the Circle, and never accepted. In the Act1 she doesn't have one good word about the Circle. She just accepted the captivity for her family.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 17:11:20 GMT
How could the templars find him exactly? There was no way, unless they got some Russian settalites or something. And that's the thing he is easily manipulated and that's a sign of a weak character. That line for Fenris is a choice for him not to die, it isn't convincing at all. He defended that idea for 8 years and it doesn't seem likely for him to bail on his ideas just with one line. It's like if you side with templars and Merill sides with mages, but if you tell her that this n battle or something like that she joins the Templars How could the city guards find any criminals exactly? They don't have phylacteries. The phylactery is a blood magic based leash, makes it very easy the Templars' work. But the lack of it does not make it impossible the pursuit. The Templars would able to catch most of the Starkhaven apostates. Merrill never shows any interest about the Circle Mages, only at the end. Merrill shows interesting only about the elves. She's not insensitive, just doesn't interest about it. Just as Dorian doesn't show any interest in the slaves' suffer. Everyone cares about his own business, but he expects the protagonist (Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor) to care for everyone.
But: Hawke can convince Merrill only with that s/he wants to protect the people, and only the Templars can restore the peace. (Of course, this is not true, because of Meredith) She's same as Fenris on the other side. She haven't an ideological conviction about the Chantry's politics and the Circles.
Fenris have fear, not ideological conviction. And he wants to leave his fear behind. He sees the Circles as some good thing, what keep the Mages away from him. I think, not a surprise, that he's happy with it. But he never denied, that the Mages are slaves:
Anders: You ever going to stop harping on the Mages here? Fenris: No. Anders: They aren’t what you saw in Tevinter. Fenris: The moment they are free, Mages will make themselves magisters. Anders: They’re slaves! You should want to help them. Fenris: I don’t.
He says he will not help, not that they are not slaves. He does not say that this is fair, he just likes it. This isn't same. Anders not capable of the fight for Templars, if Hawke doesn't crush him. Hawke doesn't need to crush Fenris to fight for Mages. At the end in Gallows, he doesn't worry anymore, Varric who worries. Fenris wants to win this battle. He doesn't fear from the lame Mages, he fears from powerful mages, who wants to use their magic to rule over people, but the Circles isn't able to prevent this, only able to be cruel toward the harmless Mages: Bethany, Fiona, Wynne... every Circle Mages, who you like suffered in the Circles. Someone was able to accept the leash, Fiona for example, doesn't. Bethany never liked the Circle, and never accepted. In the Act1 she doesn't have one good word about the Circle. She just accepted the captivity for her family. Dude you really have no idea what slavery is about do you? Nearly all of the mages except for the ones in Kirkwall, live in their high towers without any problems like finding something to eat or worrying about bandits and wars. They get the best of the educations and learn to master their talents without the fear of bexoming posessed and killing an entire town or something. That's not slavery. And in Cassandra's rule as divine it's perfected for me. The point I tried to make when bringing Merill up as an example is because that choice is for players to not kill their companions. I mean there is an option for Anders to join Templars in the last battle for fucks sake, it really isn't about logic
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 18:14:05 GMT
How could the city guards find any criminals exactly? They don't have phylacteries. The phylactery is a blood magic based leash, makes it very easy the Templars' work. But the lack of it does not make it impossible the pursuit. The Templars would able to catch most of the Starkhaven apostates. Merrill never shows any interest about the Circle Mages, only at the end. Merrill shows interesting only about the elves. She's not insensitive, just doesn't interest about it. Just as Dorian doesn't show any interest in the slaves' suffer. Everyone cares about his own business, but he expects the protagonist (Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor) to care for everyone.
But: Hawke can convince Merrill only with that s/he wants to protect the people, and only the Templars can restore the peace. (Of course, this is not true, because of Meredith) She's same as Fenris on the other side. She haven't an ideological conviction about the Chantry's politics and the Circles.
Fenris have fear, not ideological conviction. And he wants to leave his fear behind. He sees the Circles as some good thing, what keep the Mages away from him. I think, not a surprise, that he's happy with it. But he never denied, that the Mages are slaves:
Anders: You ever going to stop harping on the Mages here? Fenris: No. Anders: They aren’t what you saw in Tevinter. Fenris: The moment they are free, Mages will make themselves magisters. Anders: They’re slaves! You should want to help them. Fenris: I don’t.
He says he will not help, not that they are not slaves. He does not say that this is fair, he just likes it. This isn't same. Anders not capable of the fight for Templars, if Hawke doesn't crush him. Hawke doesn't need to crush Fenris to fight for Mages. At the end in Gallows, he doesn't worry anymore, Varric who worries. Fenris wants to win this battle. He doesn't fear from the lame Mages, he fears from powerful mages, who wants to use their magic to rule over people, but the Circles isn't able to prevent this, only able to be cruel toward the harmless Mages: Bethany, Fiona, Wynne... every Circle Mages, who you like suffered in the Circles. Someone was able to accept the leash, Fiona for example, doesn't. Bethany never liked the Circle, and never accepted. In the Act1 she doesn't have one good word about the Circle. She just accepted the captivity for her family. Dude you really have no idea what slavery is about do you? Nearly all of the mages except for the ones in Kirkwall, live in their high towers without any problems like finding something to eat or worrying about bandits and wars. They get the best of the educations and learn to master their talents without the fear of bexoming posessed and killing an entire town or something. That's not slavery. And in Cassandra's rule as divine it's perfected for me. The point I tried to make when bringing Merill up as an example is because that choice is for players to not kill their companions. I mean there is an option for Anders to join Templars in the last battle for fucks sake, it really isn't about logic Slavery, when your life depends on people who can kill you without any consequences, and you don't have a chance to go away. Cassandra can't prevent this completely, but she's not bad. At least she's not corrupt and malevolent. Better than before, but not ideal. The point is that it never will be the same as before. The golden cage is just a cage, no more. Someone can live in cage, but it does not mean that this is healthy. People can be mad, if they closed for indefinite time / their lifetime. The Circles are very good things, as schools, libraries, magical research centers, but dangerous as prisons. The phylacteries are useful things against the rogue mages, but if the Circles are prisons, better if the Mages try to destroy the phylacteries. If the Mages is prisoners, they natural enemies with the Templars/Seekers. If the Mages are free, they are allies with the Templars and Seekers against the criminals. And this absolutely fits Anders' plan as well. Some slaves have a good master, who give them good food, bed, and safe life. Some slaves don't want to rebel, because never knew a different kind of life and have no home. So: the slavery is acceptable. Orana, for example, can justify, that the slavery is a very good thing for the slaves. And again: The Mages aren't walking bombs. And don't want to destroy the world, because of they not even idiots. The world is their habitat. Why Tevinter still live? There are many blood mage, and still a strong state? How? Tevinter should have been destroyed accidentally by the lame Mages, for a long time ago.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 18:27:36 GMT
Dude you really have no idea what slavery is about do you? Nearly all of the mages except for the ones in Kirkwall, live in their high towers without any problems like finding something to eat or worrying about bandits and wars. They get the best of the educations and learn to master their talents without the fear of bexoming posessed and killing an entire town or something. That's not slavery. And in Cassandra's rule as divine it's perfected for me. The point I tried to make when bringing Merill up as an example is because that choice is for players to not kill their companions. I mean there is an option for Anders to join Templars in the last battle for fucks sake, it really isn't about logic Slavery, when your life depends on people who can kill you without any consequences, and you don't have a chance to go away. Cassandra can't prevent this completely, but she's not bad. At least she's not corrupt and malevolent. Better than before, but not ideal. The point is that it never will be the same as before. The golden cage is just a cage, no more. Someone can live in cage, but it does not mean that this is healthy. People can be mad, if they closed for indefinite time / their lifetime. The Circles are very good things, as schools, libraries, magical research centers, but dangerous as prisons. The phylacteries are useful things against the rogue mages, but if the Circles are prisons, better if the Mages try to destroy the phylacteries. If the Mages is prisoners, they natural enemies with the Templars/Seekers. If the Mages are free, they are allies with the Templars and Seekers against the criminals. Some slaves have a good master, who give them good food, bed, and safe life. Some slaves don't want to rebel, because never knew a different kind of life and have no home. So: the slavery is acceptable. Orana, for example, can justify, that the slavery is a very good thing for the slaves. And again: The Mages aren't walking bombs. And don't want to destroy the world, because of they not even idiots. The world is their habitat. Why Tevinter still live? There are many blood mage, and still a strong state? How? Tevinter should have been destroyed accidentally by the lame Mages, for a long time ago. Slave: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. Mages are not Chantry's property, in all of them except Kirkwall first enchanter gets the final say on circles fate. Slaves have their children forced into servitude in non-human conditions please don't compare it to slavery it's just wrong. Slaves don't get to have a saying in their fate. Tevinter isn't a strong nation anymore and you think there are no abominations there? In Redcliffe Connor talks to a Tevinter mage about how horrifiying the thing he did in Origins and Tevinter mage says it could've happened to any of us. Which means there are people make deals with demons and cause others to die in Tevinter, and its considered normal. If every mage were smart and strong people I wouldn't oppose mage freedoom, but like you said they are people and many people are stupid, but if a mage does something stupid it can have dreadful consequences. So it's not slavery if you also protect them. In Cassandra's rule mages are give full control over their fate, while templars guide and protect them. It's the ideal solution in my point of view.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 18:59:05 GMT
Slavery, when your life depends on people who can kill you without any consequences, and you don't have a chance to go away. Cassandra can't prevent this completely, but she's not bad. At least she's not corrupt and malevolent. Better than before, but not ideal. The point is that it never will be the same as before. The golden cage is just a cage, no more. Someone can live in cage, but it does not mean that this is healthy. People can be mad, if they closed for indefinite time / their lifetime. The Circles are very good things, as schools, libraries, magical research centers, but dangerous as prisons. The phylacteries are useful things against the rogue mages, but if the Circles are prisons, better if the Mages try to destroy the phylacteries. If the Mages is prisoners, they natural enemies with the Templars/Seekers. If the Mages are free, they are allies with the Templars and Seekers against the criminals. Some slaves have a good master, who give them good food, bed, and safe life. Some slaves don't want to rebel, because never knew a different kind of life and have no home. So: the slavery is acceptable. Orana, for example, can justify, that the slavery is a very good thing for the slaves. And again: The Mages aren't walking bombs. And don't want to destroy the world, because of they not even idiots. The world is their habitat. Why Tevinter still live? There are many blood mage, and still a strong state? How? Tevinter should have been destroyed accidentally by the lame Mages, for a long time ago. Slave: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. Mages are not Chantry's property, in all of them except Kirkwall first enchanter gets the final say on circles fate. Slaves have their children forced into servitude in non-human conditions please don't compare it to slavery it's just wrong. Slaves don't get to have a saying in their fate. Tevinter isn't a strong nation anymore and you think there are no abominations there? In Redcliffe Connor talks to a Tevinter mage about how horrifiying the thing he did in Origins and Tevinter mage says it could've happened to any of us. Which means there are people make deals with demons and cause others to die in Tevinter, and its considered normal. If every mage were smart and strong people I wouldn't oppose mage freedoom, but like you said they are people and many people are stupid, but if a mage does something stupid it can have dreadful consequences. So it's not slavery if you also protect them. In Cassandra's rule mages are give full control over their fate, while templars guide and protect them. It's the ideal solution in my point of view. The Mages depend on the Chantry, and the Templars, the Chantry's army. The Templars can do everything against the Mages in the Circle, what they want, without any consequences. The Mages can't have a family or some privacy. The Chantry can take away the Mage children from their parents without their consent. The Mages are property. Tevinter is strong enough. At least not a black hole on Thedas' map, as should be, if the abominations would be been so common. Accidents always happen, as I said. Full control over their fate? They can buy a house at a lake, and live with their family, without being watched by anyone constantly? They don't need "guide". Education needs. Anti-magic law enforcement forces are needed (mages, seekers, templars), and registration (phylactery). This would more than enough. It would be a safer more humane system, than the Circles.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 19:15:35 GMT
Slave: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. Mages are not Chantry's property, in all of them except Kirkwall first enchanter gets the final say on circles fate. Slaves have their children forced into servitude in non-human conditions please don't compare it to slavery it's just wrong. Slaves don't get to have a saying in their fate. Tevinter isn't a strong nation anymore and you think there are no abominations there? In Redcliffe Connor talks to a Tevinter mage about how horrifiying the thing he did in Origins and Tevinter mage says it could've happened to any of us. Which means there are people make deals with demons and cause others to die in Tevinter, and its considered normal. If every mage were smart and strong people I wouldn't oppose mage freedoom, but like you said they are people and many people are stupid, but if a mage does something stupid it can have dreadful consequences. So it's not slavery if you also protect them. In Cassandra's rule mages are give full control over their fate, while templars guide and protect them. It's the ideal solution in my point of view. The Mages depend on the Chantry, and the Templars, the Chantry's army. The Templars can do everything against the Mages in the Circle, what they want, without any consequences. The Mages can't have a family or some privacy. The Chantry can take away the Mage children from their parents without their consent. The Mages are property. Accidents always happen, as I said. Tevinter is strong enough. At least not a black hole on Thedas' map, as should be, if the abominations would be been so common. Full control over their fate? They can buy a house at a lake, and live with their family, without being watched by anyone constantly? They don't need "guide". Education needs. Anti-magic law enforcement forces are needed (mages, seekers, templars), and registration (phylactery). This would more than enough. It would be a safer more humane system, than the Circles. Yeah it wasn't ideal before inquisition but in Cassandra's rule I believe it will be nearly perfect. Abominations cannot destroy a country, common people dying won't cause much of a fuss. Which is the core reason I don't support full mage freedom, because while mages get their full freedom there is bound to be tensions which will probably lead to the mage or a group of commoners dying. It will be on mages' heads no matter the outcome. I believe under divine cass mages can live with their families happily while templars just being there as guardians not jailors or Chantry's army
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 19:48:26 GMT
The Mages depend on the Chantry, and the Templars, the Chantry's army. The Templars can do everything against the Mages in the Circle, what they want, without any consequences. The Mages can't have a family or some privacy. The Chantry can take away the Mage children from their parents without their consent. The Mages are property. Accidents always happen, as I said. Tevinter is strong enough. At least not a black hole on Thedas' map, as should be, if the abominations would be been so common. Full control over their fate? They can buy a house at a lake, and live with their family, without being watched by anyone constantly? They don't need "guide". Education needs. Anti-magic law enforcement forces are needed (mages, seekers, templars), and registration (phylactery). This would more than enough. It would be a safer more humane system, than the Circles. Yeah it wasn't ideal before inquisition but in Cassandra's rule I believe it will be nearly perfect. Abominations cannot destroy a country, common people dying won't cause much of a fuss. Which is the core reason I don't support full mage freedom, because while mages get their full freedom there is bound to be tensions which will probably lead to the mage or a group of commoners dying. It will be on mages' heads no matter the outcome. One-two Templars to sleep in every Mage family for guarding them and accompany them everywhere? That sounds very fun. What is "full freedom"? Everyone should take responsibility for themselves, and may not endanger any others' freedom. And if the laws are not inhumane, they should obey them. This is simple.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 23:18:16 GMT
Yeah it wasn't ideal before inquisition but in Cassandra's rule I believe it will be nearly perfect. Abominations cannot destroy a country, common people dying won't cause much of a fuss. Which is the core reason I don't support full mage freedom, because while mages get their full freedom there is bound to be tensions which will probably lead to the mage or a group of commoners dying. It will be on mages' heads no matter the outcome. One-two Templars to sleep in every Mage family for guarding them and accompany them everywhere? That sounds very fun. What is "full freedom"? Everyone should take responsibility for themselves, and may not endanger any others' freedom. And if the laws are not inhumane, they should obey them. This is simple. If a mage becomes an abomination they won't only become responsible for themselves. And I didn't say anything about mages living outside the circles maybe unless they prove themselves
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Sept 27, 2023 3:44:52 GMT
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Catilina
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August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2017 23:36:31 GMT
One-two Templars to sleep in every Mage family for guarding them and accompany them everywhere? That sounds very fun. What is "full freedom"? Everyone should take responsibility for themselves, and may not endanger any others' freedom. And if the laws are not inhumane, they should obey them. This is simple. If a mage becomes an abomination they won't only become responsible for themselves. And I didn't say anything about mages living outside the circles maybe unless they prove themselves You must be clearer. Before you spoke about Magisters, now you speak about walking bombs. The accidental abominations are very rare things, and can be killed or the demon exorcised, depend on what happened. The malicious Mages can responsible for themselves, and deserves punishment.
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