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Post by Catilina on Dec 22, 2016 4:11:17 GMT
Princeling of Starkhaven also started a war, because of PERSONAL vengeance, he abused of his power, plus did not thinking logically. (After a short quarrel Hawke understood why he did it all – he is charming.) I know that. However, that takes place off-screen. It isn't something the player takes part in. Experiencing what Anders did through Hawke's eyes is going to stick with people more than a text-only quest. Seb is a jerk, but he didn't intentionally start a war to sweep through Thedas. He can possibly attack one city, on the other side of the setting from DA:I. <shrug> This thread is more about to talk about why a person thinks a companion sucks. No need to debate about this here. That would derail the thread. Sebastian should have a love topic... Yes, it's text only quest, perhaps some people even not realized, that it's exist. You're right. Sebasttian accidentally started a war? He asked the Inquisition for the help... The worst of the mage rebellion is now past. However, the mage who started it all, who destroyed the Chantry in Kirkwall and murdered Grand Cleric Elthina and dozens of the innocent faithful, is still at large. The fanatic Anders must be brought to justice. Though he may no longer be in the city, it is still home to many of his known associates. I thus resolved to invade Kirkwall to locate Anders. But Starkhaven's annexation of this notoriously troubled city has not proceeded as planned. The city's resistance opposes me. They forget that I do this for the good of the city and all the Free Marches. As a staunch ally of the Inquisition, I entreat support for this endeavor, that Kirkwall may be brought under control before more innocents are harmed. Sebastian Vael The Mage–Templar war has been able to spread because it was a requirement. One explosion can't start a war, if nobody interest for it... as I see. Otherwise, I was wrong. It seems (at least here), people like Sebastian less than Anders. (On topic, you see! )
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Post by MarilynRobert on Dec 22, 2016 4:30:04 GMT
No matter, what Hawke told to him, he be prince in any case. I think, because Elthina's dead. I had Hawke on 100% friendship with him... yes, as Natashina wrote, he a vengeful dickhead, and can't thinking logical. (Why Anders would in Kirkwall?) This is why weird to me: why the people accept him better than Anders? He isn't better (I think, even worse, but it's just me). That's a good question, I don't know the answer. Anders i understand as you do. If you chose chantry for Sebastian, if he truly cared for Elthina, wouldn't he have wanted to honor her and his vows rather than take vengence on an entire town? No, it doesn't make logical sense but Sebastian was never logical- spoiled brat yes. I think i mostly rival him and didn't take him around too much.
Sebastian never gets his way with me. I have Cullen kick him back where he came from when he tries to take over Kirkwall. If Sebastian truly respected Elthina, he wouldn't have shot an arrow right past her head, into the paper on that bulletin board, when we first meet him. He's such a spoiled brat for being a grown man who could help others if he wasn't so selfish.
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Post by lordofwar on Dec 22, 2016 5:19:14 GMT
My problem with Sebastian taking over Kirkwall is a little different. Starkhaven and Kirkwall are two of the most important cities in the Free Marches, and he got away with making that kind of move without significent opposition from the other Marcher states? How?
I usually let him do it, though. The Free Marches need to be united if they're ever going to be relevant.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 22, 2016 5:26:04 GMT
My problem with Sebastian taking over Kirkwall is a little different. Starkhaven and Kirkwall are two of the most important cities in the Free Marches, and he got away with making that kind of move without significent opposition from the other Marcher states? How? I usually let him do it, though. The Free Marches need to be united if they're ever going to be relevant. But not under the banner of an idiot. What if someone hurt him again? Another war? For him? He don't wanted Kirkwall, because wanted to unite this two city state, but for fulfill of his vengeance. A noble purpose...
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Post by Sifr on Dec 22, 2016 8:48:52 GMT
Out of all of them, I dislike Aveline the most. I don't like how she talks down to the rest of the companions (especially with her making sure Carver isn't able to join the Guard), I don't like how she tacitly supports Meredith's regime, and I really don't like how she (fails to) handle the Kirkwall Guard. Aveline doesn't let Carver join the Guard because he doesn't listen to people, has issues with authority and has a chip on his shoulder the size of his broadsword. In a combat situation, he'd not listen to orders and charge into do something reckless that's liable to get himself or the people around him killed. Aveline also knows that Carver desperately wants to prove himself, which is the reason he ran off to join the Fereldan Army, tries to join the Guards and if left behind in Kirkwall, joins the Templars as a big middle finger to his sibling. Her tacit support of Meredith's regime is because it's easier to try to work with Meredith than against her. Even before the Viscount's death, Meredith had a firm control over Kirkwall, so Aveline has no choice but accept her as the de facto ruler, as trying to oust her would be a massive undertaking and almost certain to fail without support. Meredith does however support order in Kirkwall, as does Aveline, so their goals are aligned in that regard. Aveline also isn't blind to the dangers of unchecked mages, although she does seem to believe that Meredith's methods and treatment of mages goes way too far. However, Aveline doesn't put up with Meredith's BS and actively refuses to cede control of the Guard to the Templars, as well as requests to place Templars placed in her ranks. This was the primary reason that Meredith spread rumours of Aveline's poor management and coddling of her troops, to try to force her into stepping down. It's also possible Meredith quietly supported Jeven's attempts to create a coup, hoping to install him as a puppet Guard-Captain she could use to bring the Guard under her control.
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Beregond5
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Post by Beregond5 on Dec 22, 2016 21:03:44 GMT
I don't have Sebastian, so I really don't count him among my Hawke's companions (even if Varric insists mentioning him in DA:I) - I just voted for all of them.
I have seen some clips of him, though. I have to admit that he does seem like a decent enough sort, all in all. But the ending, where he demands Anders' death, does it for me. Dude, you want revenge? Fair enough, Anders is two feet away from you, *waiting* for his execution. Really, he won't budge, he expects to die and he won't object. Heck, perhaps he feels that by allowing his death, justice is served. Go on. No one's going anywhere. Wait what? You want *Hawke* to do it? Um... why? Does blood give you the heebie-jeebies? Or is this your twisted way of taking revenge on Hawke as well because they had the audacity to befriend Anders? If it's the first, well, tough, Hawke isn't your damn lackey. If it's the latter... I'm just going to quote Elthina and say: 'you mock Andraste and the Maker even as you claim that you act on their name'.
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Post by lordofwar on Dec 22, 2016 22:09:34 GMT
Out of all of them, I dislike Aveline the most. I don't like how she talks down to the rest of the companions (especially with her making sure Carver isn't able to join the Guard), I don't like how she tacitly supports Meredith's regime, and I really don't like how she (fails to) handle the Kirkwall Guard. Aveline doesn't let Carver join the Guard because he doesn't listen to people, has issues with authority and has a chip on his shoulder the size of his broadsword. In a combat situation, he'd not listen to orders and charge into do something reckless that's liable to get himself or the people around him killed. Aveline also knows that Carver desperately wants to prove himself, which is the reason he ran off to join the Fereldan Army, tries to join the Guards and if left behind in Kirkwall, joins the Templars as a big middle finger to his sibling. Her tacit support of Meredith's regime is because it's easier to try to work with Meredith than against her. Even before the Viscount's death, Meredith had a firm control over Kirkwall, so Aveline has no choice but accept her as the de facto ruler, as trying to oust her would be a massive undertaking and almost certain to fail without support. Meredith does however support order in Kirkwall, as does Aveline, so their goals are aligned in that regard. Aveline also isn't blind to the dangers of unchecked mages, although she does seem to believe that Meredith's methods and treatment of mages goes way too far. However, Aveline doesn't put up with Meredith's BS and actively refuses to cede control of the Guard to the Templars, as well as requests to place Templars placed in her ranks. This was the primary reason that Meredith spread rumours of Aveline's poor management and coddling of her troops, to try to force her into stepping down. It's also possible Meredith quietly supported Jeven's attempts to create a coup, hoping to install him as a puppet Guard-Captain she could use to bring the Guard under her control. It's not her job to psychoanalyze every potential recruit that comes her way, but it was her duty to help the Hawkes. She owed them her life, and in return, cut Carver out of one of the only steady jobs he was qualified for, forcing him into the arms of the Templars or on an insane expedition to the Deep Roads. Did she try to help Carver out, teach him how to be a guard? No, she just made sure he stayed unemployed out of spite. Aveline was Guard-Captain, and her support to any of the people wanting to overthrow Meredith, the disenfranchised nobles especially, could have turned the tide. Aveline protects her own position at everyone else's expense when she was in a unique position to actually do something about Meredith's tyranny.
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Post by javeart on Dec 22, 2016 22:34:08 GMT
I don't have Sebastian DLC, so I don't know him, but for what I have heard about him I suspect I'd hate him. Still, I guess it's not fair to vote against him without really knowing him , so I went with like /love them all. However, it would be more accurate to say that I love almost everyone and I like Aveline I love the peculiar combination of intelligence, determination and naivete that is Merrill, and I think she's adorable; I love how free and fun is Isabella, and how she can't help to do to the right thing in the end even against her better judgement; I love Anders, because he's so ideallistic and passionate, a man who runs a free clinic for the refugees and that puts even his own safety at risk for helping other mages, he might end up being too radical, but to me he's a great guy; I love Fenris because I think he's really tough in the best possible sense, fighting hard to be free and get over all the shit he's been through; I love Varric because he's the lovable dwarf with the heart of gold, enough said And then, there's Aveline, which is nice person, a good woman surely, very competent warrior, have some funny lines here and there, but doesn't really have anything to make me love her. She's just ok to me, and in some sense, this might be worse that if I could say that I hate her
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Post by Catilina on Dec 22, 2016 22:54:49 GMT
Aveline doesn't let Carver join the Guard because he doesn't listen to people, has issues with authority and has a chip on his shoulder the size of his broadsword. In a combat situation, he'd not listen to orders and charge into do something reckless that's liable to get himself or the people around him killed. Aveline also knows that Carver desperately wants to prove himself, which is the reason he ran off to join the Fereldan Army, tries to join the Guards and if left behind in Kirkwall, joins the Templars as a big middle finger to his sibling. Her tacit support of Meredith's regime is because it's easier to try to work with Meredith than against her. Even before the Viscount's death, Meredith had a firm control over Kirkwall, so Aveline has no choice but accept her as the de facto ruler, as trying to oust her would be a massive undertaking and almost certain to fail without support. Meredith does however support order in Kirkwall, as does Aveline, so their goals are aligned in that regard. Aveline also isn't blind to the dangers of unchecked mages, although she does seem to believe that Meredith's methods and treatment of mages goes way too far. However, Aveline doesn't put up with Meredith's BS and actively refuses to cede control of the Guard to the Templars, as well as requests to place Templars placed in her ranks. This was the primary reason that Meredith spread rumours of Aveline's poor management and coddling of her troops, to try to force her into stepping down. It's also possible Meredith quietly supported Jeven's attempts to create a coup, hoping to install him as a puppet Guard-Captain she could use to bring the Guard under her control. It's not her job to psychoanalyze every potential recruit that comes her way, but it was her duty to help the Hawkes. She owed them her life, and in return, cut Carver out of one of the only steady jobs he was qualified for, forcing him into the arms of the Templars or on an insane expedition to the Deep Roads. Did she try to help Carver out, teach him how to be a guard? No, she just made sure he stayed unemployed out of spite. Aveline was Guard-Captain, and her support to any of the people wanting to overthrow Meredith, the disenfranchised nobles especially, could have turned the tide. Aveline protects her own position at everyone else's expense when she was in a unique position to actually do something about Meredith's tyranny. Not Aveline forced Carver "into the arms of Templars" or on an "insane expedition to the Deep Roads". Carver have free will (sometimes too strong and stupid will...), and he took the his choice. He WANTED the expedition, and participate in the expedition! Or (if Hawke left him home) he WANTED to be Templar, because Ser Carver, after who got his name (and he was a defiant little bastard, but later he regret...). Aveline would supported Hawke, because she hated Meredith's influence. After the Chantry's explode, she felt, that she need to defend the law. Yes, the law was bad, but she always in her life believed in the law. Despite she supported Hawke against the Templars, and also ordered her guards, if Hawke have enough approve. This is not too hard with her. Yes, I don't like so much the lawful character in a world, where the law unacceptable. But it's just me. Many people believe, that a bad law also serve the order and calmness, and better than chaos.
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Post by Toledo wombat on Dec 23, 2016 0:06:31 GMT
I've never bought Sebastian and I don't plan to. Umm, another party member for the rest of them to bicker with... The one party member I haven't grown to love is Carver, but even he was tolerable when he came back for the Corypants outing.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Dec 23, 2016 2:00:00 GMT
Out of all of them, I dislike Aveline the most. I don't like how she talks down to the rest of the companions (especially with her making sure Carver isn't able to join the Guard), I don't like how she tacitly supports Meredith's regime, and I really don't like how she (fails to) handle the Kirkwall Guard. Aveline doesn't let Carver join the Guard because he doesn't listen to people, has issues with authority and has a chip on his shoulder the size of his broadsword. In a combat situation, he'd not listen to orders and charge into do something reckless that's liable to get himself or the people around him killed. Aveline also knows that Carver desperately wants to prove himself, which is the reason he ran off to join the Fereldan Army, tries to join the Guards and if left behind in Kirkwall, joins the Templars as a big middle finger to his sibling. Her tacit support of Meredith's regime is because it's easier to try to work with Meredith than against her. Even before the Viscount's death, Meredith had a firm control over Kirkwall, so Aveline has no choice but accept her as the de facto ruler, as trying to oust her would be a massive undertaking and almost certain to fail without support. Meredith does however support order in Kirkwall, as does Aveline, so their goals are aligned in that regard. Aveline also isn't blind to the dangers of unchecked mages, although she does seem to believe that Meredith's methods and treatment of mages goes way too far. However, Aveline doesn't put up with Meredith's BS and actively refuses to cede control of the Guard to the Templars, as well as requests to place Templars placed in her ranks. This was the primary reason that Meredith spread rumours of Aveline's poor management and coddling of her troops, to try to force her into stepping down. It's also possible Meredith quietly supported Jeven's attempts to create a coup, hoping to install him as a puppet Guard-Captain she could use to bring the Guard under her control.
About the only thing that really bothers me with Aveline is her refusing to look more into the murders even if she's with you when you find the evidence in the foundry and Ghislain later identifies the ring as belonging to Ninette. I don't fault her as much for that fustercluck as I do Meredith, but she definitely could have done more.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2016 3:48:02 GMT
I don't think Aveline can be accused of looking out just for her position. Because if Aveline is rivaled, she talks about leaving Kirkwall. Even with Donnic, she feels like Kirkwall isn't the place for her and maybe she should move on. It's not like she can just up and be guard captain in another city, no such things as transfers.
So, IMO, she's only there because she believes she's doing good. And only if she's been turning too much of a blind eye to Hawke's shenanigans does she wonder if she should leave.
Otherwise, I see her character a bit like Javier from Les Miserables. Law is the word of God/Maker. It's what makes the world make sense to her. Which explains to me why she's willing to go after the two elves who avenged their raped sister even though she absolutely knows that justice/morally, she should just wave her hands and look the other way. But the law says...
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Post by Natashina on Dec 23, 2016 9:30:03 GMT
It is Aveline's job to evalute recruits. She's the leader of the Guard and she knows Carver personally. It's not like she's looking at him through the eyes of a stranger. By the time he talks about joining the Guard, she's known him for about a year. She knows that Carver is trying too hard to prove himself and that he's too hotheaded.
It's her duty to recruit the candidates that she feels is best for the job. I think that those that say that her duty is to recruit anyone willy-nilly has never spent anytime around a recruiter. They do evaluate any potential candidates. It's not just formally with a psychiatrist either. Someone can pass a psych evaluation and can still be deemed unfit for enlisting. Aveline is a recruiter for the Guard, among many other responsibilities.
I actually like the character, for the most part. She's loyal damned near to a fault, a helluva warrior, and overall a good person.
She does have a very screwed up blind spot when it comes to the guards though. Why didn't she investigate the rape charges brought forth against "one of her own?" I know Aveline's busy and all but that's the kind of thing that should be investigated immediately. The victim's brother waited for more than a week for someone to care and was basically told to stick it.
She could have kept an eye on this situation. Before the guard was murdered for what he did (as he should have imho,) and before the poor elf ran for the Qunari. I hold Aveline partially accountable for the Qunari going ape at the end of Act 2. Isabela takes the bulk of the blame, but I like her too.
The only character from DA2 I loathe is Seb, but I've already addressed the little punk.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 12:42:57 GMT
Good grief, that's one evocative thread title. Thanks for that mental image.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 12:44:28 GMT
Anders or Sebastian....Anders or Sebastian....one is a miserable sod who makes me weep for the charming rogue he once was in Awakening, and the other needs to lighten the hell up. Pfftt....I'll go with Anders.
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Dovahkiin N7
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Post by Dovahkiin N7 on Dec 24, 2016 21:58:44 GMT
Battle point of view: Isabela.
Personality ?
Fenris: hated and never forgave him for killing those who sheltered him.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 24, 2016 23:37:53 GMT
Battle point of view: Isabela. Personality ? Fenris: hated and never forgave him for killing those who sheltered him. It was the slave. No Fenris.
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Post by fylimar on Dec 26, 2016 13:54:08 GMT
That's a good question, I don't know the answer. Anders i understand as you do. If you chose chantry for Sebastian, if he truly cared for Elthina, wouldn't he have wanted to honor her and his vows rather than take vengence on an entire town? No, it doesn't make logical sense but Sebastian was never logical- spoiled brat yes. I think i mostly rival him and didn't take him around too much.
Sebastian never gets his way with me. I have Cullen kick him back where he came from when he tries to take over Kirkwall. If Sebastian truly respected Elthina, he wouldn't have shot an arrow right past her head, into the paper on that bulletin board, when we first meet him. He's such a spoiled brat for being a grown man who could help others if he wasn't so selfish. I agree. I'm not an Anders apologetist, I like his character despite his flaws and I fully recognise, that whate he did in the end was horrible. But Sebastian is not better. He would risk thousands of innocent lifes for a personal revenge? For a woman, he himself seems to have little respect. That scene with the arrow at the beginning was the equivalent of a little child stomping it's food to get, what it wants. And even then: if Sebastian had simply shoot Anders in the end, it would have been bad for the players without a healer, but it would have been an understandable move for someone in pain and not thinking straight. But storming away and returning to start a war is a real dick move.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 26, 2016 14:17:14 GMT
Sebastian never gets his way with me. I have Cullen kick him back where he came from when he tries to take over Kirkwall. If Sebastian truly respected Elthina, he wouldn't have shot an arrow right past her head, into the paper on that bulletin board, when we first meet him. He's such a spoiled brat for being a grown man who could help others if he wasn't so selfish. I agree. I'm not an Anders apologetist, I like his character despite his flaws and I fully recognise, that whate he did in the end was horrible. But Sebastian is not better. He would risk thousands of innocent lifes for a personal revenge? For a woman, he himself seems to have little respect. That scene with the arrow at the beginning was the equivalent of a little child stomping it's food to get, what it wants. And even then: if Sebastian had simply shoot Anders in the end, it would have been bad for the players without a healer, but it would have been an understandable move for someone in pain and not thinking straight. But storming away and returning to start a war is a real dick move. This. Alistair was able to kill Loghain with own hands, if the warden refused that. To shot Anders would be understandable in his viewpoint, but to start a war, after two years, for personal vengeance... (and for nothing!) – unacceptable. (All rebellion/war is horrible, and the "right war" isn't exist, or at least very rare, but sometimes inevitable.)
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Post by MarilynRobert on Dec 26, 2016 17:51:03 GMT
I agree. I'm not an Anders apologetist, I like his character despite his flaws and I fully recognise, that whate he did in the end was horrible. But Sebastian is not better. He would risk thousands of innocent lifes for a personal revenge? For a woman, he himself seems to have little respect. That scene with the arrow at the beginning was the equivalent of a little child stomping it's food to get, what it wants. And even then: if Sebastian had simply shoot Anders in the end, it would have been bad for the players without a healer, but it would have been an understandable move for someone in pain and not thinking straight. But storming away and returning to start a war is a real dick move. This. Alistair was able to kill Loghain with own hands, if the warden refused that. To shot Anders would be understandable in his viewpoint, but to start a war, after two years, for personal vengeance... (and for nothing!) – unacceptable. (All rebellion/war is horrible, and the "right war" isn't exist, or at least very rare, but sometimes inevitable.) I agree with the idea of Sebastian killing Anders if he felt so strongly about it. My Hawkes would not have retaliated against Sebastian if he had killed Anders himself instead of demanding that Hawke do it, even though Hawke would have been heart broken at Ander's death.
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Post by javeart on Dec 26, 2016 18:23:20 GMT
Going off on a tangent, I have to say that if at some point one of our companions kills another one, it would be totally and somehow fun, for the surprise if nothing else but at the same time I'd never forgive BW writters for that even less so if is someone like Sebastian killing Anders
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Post by Catilina on Dec 26, 2016 18:29:36 GMT
Going off on a tangent, I have to say that if at some point one of our companions kills another one, it would be totally and somehow fun, for the surprise if nothing else but at the same time I'd never forgive BW writters for that even less so if is someone like Sebastian killing Anders Of course, my Hawke'(s) would try to kill him to prevent. But with deep respect ...
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Post by fylimar on Dec 26, 2016 19:42:22 GMT
Going off on a tangent, I have to say that if at some point one of our companions kills another one, it would be totally and somehow fun, for the surprise if nothing else but at the same time I'd never forgive BW writters for that even less so if is someone like Sebastian killing Anders That already happened in Bioware games. Baldurs Gate 2 for example. I had a funny little shortage of companions, when my tank attacked my priest and killed her - deep under the city, where there was no way out, except through hords of enemies - and the only priest, who could heal and revive people, was dead - fun days . I think they are not the only companions in Baldurs Gate, who could end up killing each other, I was just lucky, to hit the right mixture in the other runs, so I would not have been surprised, if Sebastian actually had killed Anders here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 23:15:06 GMT
Anders. Than Fenris. Than maybe a bit of Merril. I don't hate Isabela (rivalry) but I don't really care for her friendship wise. I love Varric and Aveline (friendship wise) and I dk about Sebs.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Dec 27, 2016 0:48:24 GMT
Out of all of them, I dislike Aveline the most. I don't like how she talks down to the rest of the companions (especially with her making sure Carver isn't able to join the Guard), I don't like how she tacitly supports Meredith's regime, and I really don't like how she (fails to) handle the Kirkwall Guard. Aveline doesn't let Carver join the Guard because he doesn't listen to people, has issues with authority and has a chip on his shoulder the size of his broadsword. In a combat situation, he'd not listen to orders and charge into do something reckless that's liable to get himself or the people around him killed. Aveline also knows that Carver desperately wants to prove himself, which is the reason he ran off to join the Fereldan Army, tries to join the Guards and if left behind in Kirkwall, joins the Templars as a big middle finger to his sibling.Her tacit support of Meredith's regime is because it's easier to try to work with Meredith than against her. Even before the Viscount's death, Meredith had a firm control over Kirkwall, so Aveline has no choice but accept her as the de facto ruler, as trying to oust her would be a massive undertaking and almost certain to fail without support. Meredith does however support order in Kirkwall, as does Aveline, so their goals are aligned in that regard. Aveline also isn't blind to the dangers of unchecked mages, although she does seem to believe that Meredith's methods and treatment of mages goes way too far. However, Aveline doesn't put up with Meredith's BS and actively refuses to cede control of the Guard to the Templars, as well as requests to place Templars placed in her ranks. This was the primary reason that Meredith spread rumours of Aveline's poor management and coddling of her troops, to try to force her into stepping down. It's also possible Meredith quietly supported Jeven's attempts to create a coup, hoping to install him as a puppet Guard-Captain she could use to bring the Guard under her control. As much as I adore Carver, I agree with Aveline for not letting him join the Guard at that very immature time in his life. If things had been different in the game, where he didn't become a Templar or Grey Warden, but he did have the chance to mature like he did in those two specialties, then later on, maybe she would have let him join the Guard (although by that time I bet Carver's skill sets and experience would make him way over qualified for the job.
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