Andraste_Reborn
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,458 Likes: 6,303
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 9, 2017 23:02:11 GMT
Do we even know about the parents/family of a majority of super heroes? I mean, there are tons of them around in both major publishers. Typically, if there is no reason to mention family, either as a source of angst or as a source of characterization -- "I would die to protect my family," etc -- then there isn't a reason for them to be mentioned at all. We do know! I could probably draw you a rudimentary family tree for most major X-Men characters. And most of them would be full of tragically dead and/or tragically evil parents and/or siblings. I mean, just consider the original X-Men for a moment ... Professor X: father died when he was a young child, mother remarried abusive jerk then also died and then his abusive jerk stepfather died a short time later. His stepbrother bullied him and eventually became a supervillain. Never mind what happened to his biological son and his alien wife. Cyclops: Grew up thinking he was an orphan, separated from his younger brother. Turned out his father was actually a space pirate but his mother actually is dead. Father eventually killed for real. Married clone of dead girlfriend, son taken to the future and eventually came back as angry gun-toting superhero. Jean Grey: Had a stable, loving family growing up but her sister and parents have since been killed by supervillains. Also had a troubled relationship with the clone of her who married her boyfriend while she was dead and her various future and/or alternative universe children. Angel: Had a reasonable relationship with his parents, although neither of them knew he was a mutant. Father was killed by supervillains, and his mother by his evil uncle. Iceman: Parents are alive (AFAIK) but he was estranged from them for years because they didn't approve of his lifestyle choices. (By which I mean the whole mutant superhero thing, not him being gay.) Beast: Actually has a good relationship with is loving parents who are, to the best of my knowledge, still alive! One out of six ain't bad? There's a similar pattern with the All-New, All-Different recruits, the New Mutants and every subsequent generation of X-Men recruits up to this day. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 9, 2017 23:24:17 GMT
In short, EVERYONE is fucked up in some way.
This actually makes me more more annoyed when people carry on about Dorian's "daddy issues," like he's the only one who has this problem.
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Post by Artemis on Jan 9, 2017 23:41:12 GMT
In short, EVERYONE is fucked up in some way. This actually makes me more more annoyed when people carry on about Dorian's "daddy issues," like he's the only one who has this problem. I think it may just be that particular scene that irritates people. Dorian IS one of the few who actually interacts with his father on screen. I also think knowledge about Dorian's writer and his stated desire to write this particular story about this particular character doesn't help Dorian's case. The scene feels ham-fisted to some (not all, of course) and the accusations of it being an "after school special" probably stem from the fact that it appears to have blatantly obvious parallels with a real world problem (gay conversion therapy... sorry, gay conversation "therapy"). I think a lot of people who liked the idea that DAO and DA2 seemed to reinforce, that the world of Thedas was totes okay with being LGBT, were disappointed by Dorian's story. Then of course there are the straight up haters who can go fuck themselves  |
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 10, 2017 0:02:52 GMT
Artemis Whereas I find it refreshing that Cullen keeps in touch with his family. It was a nice change of pace. I wouldn't mind seeing that again. For me, the family drama arc has gotten boring. I wouldn't want even most companions to be like my example, but having one every now and then is nice. I'd mentioned that this was a very common trend in fantasy stories. Plenty of authors I've loved over the years have used this method of character-buidling. I'm not trying to scold or berate BioWare at all. That wasn't my intent and again, I sure wouldn't keep buying their games if I didn't enjoy their story telling. I only feel that they're doing it too often. This isn't meant to be a slam on the writers or the company. I'm truly a fan, even if there are things I don't always care for. I want to also mention that many of those characters I listed are my favorites. I wouldn't go back and change how they are written, including their family stories. This is more of a suggestion based upon my opinion for the future. Part of it is that I'm really sick of the trope in general. I would want at least a companion or two per game with a decent family life. It would be immersion breaking if everyone had a happy family all the time, but for me, it's a little immersion breaking seeing this trope used this much. I'm also not claiming that I'm right and BioWare is wrong. Nor is BioWare special in this regard. I am asking them to ease up a bit though. It's possible to create well adjusted heroes with happy family histories; it's just that too often said characters can come off as bland and two dimensional. A fully developed, three dimensional personality has to have weight and context to explain why they are the way they are. Steady people can be heroes too, it's just harder to make them as interesting. Maybe the writers could take that as a challenge  ?
I would imagine that other than having more creative opportunities for the writers to explore, complex characters have more directions that the player can influence one way or the other in the Companion Quests. Companion Quests have the potential to shake a characters' core beliefs, which for most are shaped by our families. Take that away, and you have to replace it something just as integral. Yes, it could be religion, patriotism, self identity and such, but again those ideals usually start with family. Plus, there's the characters' arcs; do you want them to start happy and stable, only to be challenged later? Unfortunately, it's going to very difficult to justify this approach in DA4, since we're going to Tevinter. Not a whole lot of happy families in the Imperium  . Or the Qunari invasion, for that matter...
Or maybe we're just overthinking it, and all these crazy characters are just the writers' therapy  .
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 10, 2017 0:39:51 GMT
In short, EVERYONE is fucked up in some way. This actually makes me more more annoyed when people carry on about Dorian's "daddy issues," like he's the only one who has this problem. I think it may just be that particular scene that irritates people. Dorian IS one of the few who actually interacts with his father on screen. I also think knowledge about Dorian's writer and his stated desire to write this particular story about this particular character doesn't help Dorian's case. The scene feels ham-fisted to some (not all, of course) and the accusations of it being an "after school special" probably stem from the fact that it appears to have blatantly obvious parallels with a real world problem (gay conversion therapy... sorry, gay conversation "therapy"). I think a lot of people who liked the idea that DAO and DA2 seemed to reinforce, that the world of Thedas was totes okay with being LGBT, were disappointed by Dorian's story. Then of course there are the straight up haters who can go fuck themselves The thing about older gamers who complain about Dorian's story because "they've seen it a million times already" and "we wanted a special fantasy universe with no prejudice" seem to forget that:
1) Every story has been done to death at this point. Every kind of love story, murder mystery, western, high fantasy, everything. It is nigh impossible to come up with an original idea, so the only thing writers can worry about is if their tale is the best and most honest that they could make it.
2) Just because you have seen this tale already, doesn't mean that there are younger and/or less genre savy gamers who haven't. You don't need another tale of someone struggling with sexuality, identity, and family? Great, good for you. Unfortunately, there are still far too many who do need it.
3) I have said this 100 times and I will say it once more: Dragon Age is a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters, grey morality and no easy answers. You knew this coming in, that DA has more in common with A Song of Ice and Fire than Shannara. Throughout the series we've seen war, religious fanaticism, racism, sexism, torture and rape to name a few, in all their unromanticized horror. All of those are fine, yet homophobia is too far? The writers can be brutally honest about every other dark aspect of the human condition but this? I'm not saying LBGTQ people don't deserve stories where they can be more or less just like everyone else. But after everything else, for Dragon Age to stick it's head in the sand about this would betray the series' history and insult our intelligence. You can't fight evil by pretending that it doesn't exist. Especially when this emotional honesty was insisted upon by David Gaider, the series' creator and a gay man to boot.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 10, 2017 0:39:53 GMT
I think the interesting bits can come from outside conflict and how the character reacts to that, not necessarily internal struggles and angst with the same issues that are played out.
I consider my own Inquisitor (human warrior) to be somewhat boring. He's a Nice Guy, has a good family relationship, and comes from a privileged background. His struggles in the narrative come from outside sources, having his faith shaken, dealing with the responsibilities of being Inquisitor, wondering if he's making the right choices, the feeling that he will most likely die saving the world (which ends up not happening, yay!), and so on.
Almost all of us have loved ones and relationships with other people. These relationships shape us, change us, let us grow, or tear us down. Having these sorts of issues be so common among so many characters is done because we can all relate to them in some manner, whether it's not meeting your parent's expectations (Avaline, Dorian), feeling overwhelmed by familial responsibilities and obligations (Josephine), being pressured to do what you don't want to do (Cassandra), feeling unloved and cast aside (Alistair, Sera), or just general loss.
When it comes to some of these damaged characters, I think there is a fine line. But it does depend on the player as well. I want to give Dorian a hug and let him know he's cared for. Other players consider him to be whining. Even if a follower is not a LI, there is something to be said for touching that nerve for the player, the one that makes you want to give them a hug. These characters don't need these struggles to be interesting, but they have them to reach the players' emotions.
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Post by Artemis on Jan 10, 2017 2:23:46 GMT
I think the interesting bits can come from outside conflict and how the character reacts to that, not necessarily internal struggles and angst with the same issues that are played out. I consider my own Inquisitor (human warrior) to be somewhat boring. He's a Nice Guy, has a good family relationship, and comes from a privileged background. His struggles in the narrative come from outside sources, having his faith shaken, dealing with the responsibilities of being Inquisitor, wondering if he's making the right choices, the feeling that he will most likely die saving the world (which ends up not happening, yay!), and so on. Almost all of us have loved ones and relationships with other people. These relationships shape us, change us, let us grow, or tear us down. Having these sorts of issues be so common among so many characters is done because we can all relate to them in some manner, whether it's not meeting your parent's expectations (Avaline, Dorian), feeling overwhelmed by familial responsibilities and obligations (Josephine), being pressured to do what you don't want to do (Cassandra), feeling unloved and cast aside (Alistair, Sera), or just general loss. When it comes to some of these damaged characters, I think there is a fine line. But it does depend on the player as well. I want to give Dorian a hug and let him know he's cared for. Other players consider him to be whining. Even if a follower is not a LI, there is something to be said for touching that nerve for the player, the one that makes you want to give them a hug. These characters don't need these struggles to be interesting, but they have them to reach the players' emotions. That's a really good point I find myself drawn to characters who have good relationships with their fathers, simply because mine is so difficult. (So, sort of the opposite of finding characters to relate to... but at the same time, I am, in a sort of wishful thinking way.) I think all of the characters are well-written, and even though some of these tropes are repeated, like the dead moms/dads, evil moms/dads, or the dead lover trope, I guess the reason these are tropes in the first place is because they are real things that happen to real people all the time. Maybe when it gets overused for the same TYPE of character that can get annoying. For example, a lot of the male love interests have the deceased lover thing going, so that can get annoying. Even though on an individual basis it can add depth to the character. |
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Post by Natashina on Jan 10, 2017 5:03:42 GMT
I was thinking about it and I know a way that the writers could do a similar history for a companion without so much death/estrangement by family. That's screwing up and losing a very close friend. As important as blood or adoptive families are, the family you try to create can be just as vital. I don't have many regrets about my life, but some of the very few I do have revolve around friendships that I've screwed up on in the past. I don't dwell on it, but every now and then I think of a friend I knew and go, "Wow. I was a real jerk." Or, "Man, what was I even thinking?" Some of those moments impacted me years later. Or in one case, where I had to kick a friend of over 10 years out of life for good due to her being a destructive presence. It was one of the most painful and grown up things I've had to do and it still effects me 7 years later. It's a long story, but situations like that would be a nice change for a character's background. Edit: I also wanted to mention the experience of the death of a dear friend. I think that, when done well, it can be even more effective than the Dead Parents/Estranged Family trope. I haven't lost my parents nor my siblings. However, as almost everyone else I know, I have had to say goodbye to a friend. Whether it be to disease, war, an accident or whatever, everyone I know has experienced that kind of loss. That is something I'd like to see explored further rather than falling back on family and/or romance for the drama. I don't see anything wrong with most companions having a broken or otherwise unstable homelife in Thedas. Between Blights, random wars, good ol' fashioned diseases, dragons and everything else, it would make no sense if even most companions have all of their family still kicking. However, it would be interesting to see other kinds of relationships that has gone bad that isn't due to romance or blood family. I also have to stress again that I'm not talking about NPCs like Cullen. I'm talking our party members, the people our PCs take out into the field. Artemis I'm not 100% certain, but were you Curious Artemis from the BW forums? |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 10, 2017 5:26:13 GMT
I was thinking about it and I know a way that the writers could do a similar history for a companion without so much death/estrangement by family. That's screwing up and losing a very close friend. As important as blood or adoptive families are, the family you try to create can be just as vital. I don't have many regrets about my life, but some of the very few I do have revolve around friendships that I've screwed up on in the past. I don't dwell on it, but every now and then I think of a friend I knew and go, "Wow. I was a real jerk." Or, "Man, what was I even thinking?" Some of those moments impacted me years later. Or in one case, where I had to kick a friend of over 10 years out of life for good due to her being a destructive presence. It was one of the most painful and grown up things I've had to do and it still effects me 7 years later. It's a long story, but situations like that would be a nice change for a character's background. I don't see anything wrong with most companions having a broken or otherwise unstable homelife in Thedas. Between Blights, random wars, good ol' fashioned diseases, dragons and everything else, it would make no sense if even most companions have all of their family still kicking. However, it would be interesting to see other kinds of relationships that has gone bad that isn't due to romance or blood family. I like this! I can think of a few instances where friendships are a significant part of a character's story - Sigrun's broken friendship with Mischa, Dorian's close friendship with Felix (which is heartbreaking for reasons that certainly aren't his fault!). Bull lost Vasaad on a mission-gone-bad on Seheron, and he banters with Cole about it. Cole: Vasaad was angry. He went first because he wanted to fight. Taking point, then points take him, red on his neck. Bull: I was just thinking about-- wait, you in my mind again, kid? Cole: Even if you went in first, there would have been another fight, another time he didn't listen. It wasn't your fault. Bull: Yes, it was. I was in charge. Should've found a way to-- And of course there's his relationship with the Chargers which is really the cornerstone of his development in DAI. And sacrificing/saving them really affirms the tragic reality that the Qun will never allow the people Bull loves to take precedence. Owww, my heart. But anyway, I agree that companions with meaningful friendships - past and present - would be welcome! |
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Post by Artemis on Jan 10, 2017 5:28:03 GMT
I was thinking about it and I know a way that the writers could do a similar history for a companion without so much death/estrangement by family. That's screwing up and losing a very close friend. As important as blood or adoptive families are, the family you try to create can be just as vital. I don't have many regrets about my life, but some of the very few I do have revolve around friendships that I've screwed up on in the past. I don't dwell on it, but every now and then I think of a friend I knew and go, "Wow. I was a real jerk." Or, "Man, what was I even thinking?" Some of those moments impacted me years later. Or in one case, where I had to kick a friend of over 10 years out of life for good due to her being a destructive presence. It was one of the most painful and grown up things I've had to do and it still effects me 7 years later. It's a long story, but situations like that would be a nice change for a character's background. Edit: I also wanted to mention the experience of the death of a dear friend. I think that, when done well, it can be even more effective than the Dead Parents/Estranged Family trope. I haven't lost my parents nor my siblings. However, as almost everyone else I know, I have had to say goodbye to a friend. Whether it be to disease, war, an accident or whatever, everyone I know has experienced that kind of loss. That is something I'd like to see explored further rather than falling back on family and/or romance for the drama. I don't see anything wrong with most companions having a broken or otherwise unstable homelife in Thedas. Between Blights, random wars, good ol' fashioned diseases, dragons and everything else, it would make no sense if even most companions have all of their family still kicking. However, it would be interesting to see other kinds of relationships that has gone bad that isn't due to romance or blood family. I also have to stress again that I'm not talking about NPCs like Cullen. I'm talking our party members, the people our PCs take out into the field. Artemis I'm not 100% certain, but were you Curious Artemis from the BW forums? Yes that's me!!!  I like your idea of losing a friend. Of course I immediately thought of Tamlen. That's not exactly what you meant, I know, since Tamlen dies (it's not like we become estranged or anything) and it happens to the PC, not an NPC. But you're fucking right man. That ripped me up. Especially when he shows up at camp that one time. And I was headcanoning that they had a romantic relationship (had a male Dalish kid) so that was just... gutting. And THEN that's the name the ghost dude brings up at Sacred Ashes (I forget his name lol). It was horrible. What if, instead of doing what he did, Blackwall had actually lost a friend in the Blight? Through his own carelessness or perhaps selfishness he allowed a fellow soldier and dear friend to die. He carries that guilt with him today. And that's his big secret. To me it would have been so much more moving than the whole "I was kind of evil 20 years ago and killed a shit ton of people; I'm super sorry about it." Think about Bull losing the Chargers. That happens in-game, but it's close to what you're suggesting. |
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Post by Natashina on Jan 10, 2017 5:40:30 GMT
Yes that's me!!! <BIG HUG> Good to see you and debate with you again. I'm glad you made it here. For the non-death version, I thought of Leske from the Brosca origin. My Casteless was my first Warden and coming back to his betrayal really hurt. But yeah, stuff like that. I know you didn't care much for my Janis example, but that could be one time he's talking about his family. Instead of the death/betrayal of a blood relative that haunts him, it's the death/betrayal of a dearest friend. I like this. I don't mind Blackwall, but I find him actually boring. He's also a letdown to me. I was hoping for a senior Warden companion and got a bait and switch.  Yep, only having something like that happening in the past prior to us meeting the character in game. I could certainly relate to a character that has the death of a friend, or at least the death of a deep friendship. I'm glad to see that you get where I was coming from. |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 11, 2017 20:54:51 GMT
Actually I've never really understood why Sera had such a grudge against that noblewoman who was her surrogate mother. Okay so she did a stupid and selfish thing in using Sera's race to stop her going to see the baker and discovering she didn't make the cookies but I was always expecting something more. That was one incident. The lady took her in off the street, which in itself was highly unusual for a noblewoman to do considering the general view in which elves are held through Thedas but among the nobility in particular. She raised Sera as her own daughter, so clearly race was not an issue between them. Then despite the fact that Sera apparently left her over the cookie incident, the lady left everything to Sera in her will. Of course we only learn most of this through WoT2. I've never romanced Sera so do you get more of an explanation for her attitude if you do?
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Post by shechinah on Jan 11, 2017 22:01:00 GMT
Actually I've never really understood why Sera had such a grudge against that noblewoman who was her surrogate mother. Okay so she did a stupid and selfish thing in using Sera's race to stop her going to see the baker and discovering she didn't make the cookies but I was always expecting something more. That was one incident. The lady took her in off the street, which in itself was highly unusual for a noblewoman to do considering the general view in which elves are held through Thedas but among the nobility in particular. She raised Sera as her own daughter, so clearly race was not an issue between them. Then despite the fact that Sera apparently left her over the cookie incident, the lady left everything to Sera in her will. Of course we only learn most of this through WoT2. I've never romanced Sera so do you get more of an explanation for her attitude if you do?Here is a transcript of the dialogue in Sera's roof scene but more or less only the portion that concerns Lady Emmald and the cookie incident.
Sera: "I got caught stealing when I was little, yeah? You get the alienage or worse for that, but the "Lady Emmald" took me in. She was sick and couldn't have children. I had no parents. It worked out. Anyway, she gets a year sicker, so I ask her about cookies. Because mums make cookies. I can pass that down, or something. Turns out, she couldn't cook. She missed that talk with her mum. The ones she "made" she brought and pretended. Aw, right? Well, no, she was a bitch. She hid buying them by keeping me away from the baker. She did that by lying that he didn't like me, didn't like elves. She let me hate so she could protect her pride. I hated him so much, and I hated... Well, she died, and I hate pride. "Pride cookies." But this Inquisition thing is working out. So I figured I could make some... "Inquisition cookies" Because then I could like them again? Ugh, it's stupid." Inquisitor: (Emmald was nice. Why hate her?) "I don't understand. This Lady Emmald was just trying to be good to you." Sera: "She hurt people." Inquisitor: "It was just cookies." Sera: "It was not just cookies! Lie to herself? Fair play, only hurts her. But she made me think there was something wrong with me! And the baker! I made his life shit, why not? It seemed like he deserved it. I mean, "if you don't give a child a cookie because of appearances, you're a monster." Stupid, pride-whore noble. ... I know. I said it was stupid. That's why I want to get rid of it. I want to make better cookies."
The "If you don't give a child a cookie because of appearances, you're a monster" line seem to be something that Lady Emmald told Sera. It may seem like a small thing but consider how Sera says it made her feel and consider just the lengths that Lady Emmald went to, to hide the very small thing that she could not bake. She would rather tell her daughter that someone hated her because of her race, encourage Sera to think of an innocent baker as a monster, and possibly stand by while Sera made the man's life hell than admit that she could not bake.
Basically: to Sera, her mother of all people, someone she loved and trusted, were willing to let her think less of herself and to make her hate an innocent person because she was too proud to admit something as petty as not being able to bake. It wasn't about her mother lying about the cookies that made and makes Sera so upset, it was about her mother lying about the baker.
I would like to note that I am not saying that Lady Emmald could not have been an otherwise good woman despite this big flaw who genuinely loved Sera, I'm just trying to explain why I think it made Sera feel more bitter towards her adopted mother.... and cookies.
Source:
Note: Also, I imaging the reason Sera began asking about cookies from her mother after she got sicker may have been because it would be a way of remembering her mother after she's gone. Her mother mentioned as having gotten sicker after a year seems to suggest she may have been terminally ill. Basically, a way for Sera to cope with her mother's eventual death by having something to remember her by and pass down as a family tradition.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 12, 2017 0:41:39 GMT
I think it's important to remember that Sera was just a child. Children look at the world through their limited knowledge and try to make sense of it. It was always played for humor, and as a "wink wink" to the audience, but in the TV show Rugrats, the kids were mixing up all sorts of things all the time because they were only babies and didn't have the full grasp when they heard the adults around them say various things.
And you know, Sera is barely an adult in DAI, so she isn't so far removed form that time in her life. The same can be said regarding some of Alistair's immaturity in DAO. These things that happen to us as children stay with us and shape us, and that was how it was for her with the "pride cookies." I'm not the biggest Sera fan for various reason, but I can certainly understand how all of that came about and how it shaped the Sera we see in the game.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 12, 2017 1:12:11 GMT
Yeah... it's not the cookies themselves. They're just a symbol. It's the fact that her mother, who is supposed to love her unconditionally, betrayed her trust and hurt her irrevocably by saying, essentially, "there's something wrong with you." She was willing to let a child believe that about herself for the sake of a white lie. She let Sera believe an innocent man was a horrible child-hating racist, let him take the fall for it, for something that should be totally inconsequential. Think about that. And Sera continues to hear and internalize variations of that statement her entire life, so I imagine that keeps the wound fresh.
Reminds me of Halward ("You wanted what was best for you") Pavus and Eamon and anyone else who trides to hide the truth for the sake of appearances and ends up hurting the people they claim to love.
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Post by halla on Jan 12, 2017 19:24:11 GMT
Isn't it like that with everyone?
- Why you lied to me?!
- To protect you!
It's always like that. To protect, to keep from doing something stupid, to try to teach in a way that person only knows. Lady Emmald took Sera for something, not only to be famous between her friends or seen as "lady with golden heart" (at least I won't believe it). Maybe she got herself bad childhood and THAT was the way to teach Sera and show her her support/love/affection? Or she was old lady with never getting man, and.. you know... *coughs* Just lonely and crazy.
Aaand since you say Sera isn't too old in game, she's still in the age of riot/teen I guess? Know by myself that when I were 20 I were still childlish with a lot of stuff that got connected to emotions and/or past.
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Post by sageoflife on Jan 13, 2017 6:27:31 GMT
Sera's comment about being made to feel like there was something wrong with her makes me think that Lady Emmald engaged in a lot of more subtle abuse regarding Sera's race, and Sera focused on the cookies because she's not the type of person who does subtle. Sera's rejection of being seen as an elf does make some more sense with that idea.
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Post by phoray on Jan 14, 2017 21:31:14 GMT
Has it already been done that someone was in a poisonous romantic relationship that they then left after a lot of struggle? Or even they didn't leave, the person died. And now they'll always wonder if they would have had the strength to break out of it on their own.
Death can be more interesting than simple loss/grief/mourning.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 14, 2017 23:57:33 GMT
As far as "poisonous," does Leliana's relationship to Marjorlaine count? There is also Celene/Briala...
I'm rather torn on that idea, especially if the person is a LI option. On the one hand, I do like "healing" romances, which is one reason I like the Dorian romance. On the other hand, I think those can be frustrating for some players if they're not done in the right way.
Somewhat related, if Maevaris is a LI in DA4, we would have to deal with the loss of her husband as well. Again, it should be addressed, and I think it can add a lot to a romance if it's done in the right way, with consideration for her, and her loss, while allowing new feelings to develop. They could even have it so that such a romance takes a bit longer, perhaps culminating near the end of the game.
I for one do NOT think that having a new romantic attachment means that the previous one is forgotten, or that it has to be presented as if the person is completely fine. There can be room in someone's heart for loving more than one person.
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lobselvith8
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 15, 2017 0:33:24 GMT
As far as "poisonous," does Leliana's relationship to Marjorlaine count? There is also Celene/Briala... I'd imagine it should count considering what Marjorlaine did to Leliana, and Celene's vile relationship with Briala should most certainly count. Somewhat related, if Maevaris is a LI in DA4, we would have to deal with the loss of her husband as well. Again, it should be addressed, and I think it can add a lot to a romance if it's done in the right way, with consideration for her, and her loss, while allowing new feelings to develop. They could even have it so that such a romance takes a bit longer, perhaps culminating near the end of the game. I for one do NOT think that having a new romantic attachment means that the previous one is forgotten, or that it has to be presented as if the person is completely fine. There can be room in someone's heart for loving more than one person. I agree. I also wonder if Maevaris avenging Thorold's death will have any ramifications. |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 15, 2017 12:17:05 GMT
That reference from DA2 from Flemeth could also just mean that Morrigan is no longer sure if she should even regard Flemeth as her mother, whether actual blood relative or not. Morrigan believes that Flemeth only wanted her so she could use her as a replacement body. That is a very unmotherly thing to do. When she confronts Flemeth in DAI and Flemeth offers to leave her alone in return for Kieran, Morrigan refuses because she has true motherly feelings for her son, no matter what her original reasons were for conceiving him. She specifically says: "I will not be the mother that you were to me." The dynamic between Flemeth and Morrigan has always been more about how a mother should behave towards her children, regardless of whether they are related by blood. Even before discovering Flemeth's grimoire Morrigan did not seem to have the feelings towards Flemeth that you would think a daughter should. However, when she recounts her upbringing you start to understand why that would be. This would hold true whether Flemeth had given birth to her or not.
As for poisonous relationships, the one between Celene/Briala definitely counts. I admired Briala in Masked Empire for finally seeing through Celene and getting out of it, only for us to be given the option to throw her back in again in DAI and for her to agree. I liked to think that Briala was doing this purely from a political expediency perspective (it certainly sounded like that when she confirms that she helped save Celene) but then in Trespasser they are saying that they do seem genuinely happy back in each others company. I wonder if this was the writer over compensating again (like they did with Dorian/Bull) because of people criticising the pairing in DAI and other people objecting to making it poisonous in the first place.
In fact if Bull is still a loyal member of the Qun, that pairing between him and Dorian does seem a poisonous one too. Instead of being a unlikely pairing, it becomes Hissrad the spy playing someone who is emotionally vulnerable from a strategically important city in Tevinter, who by Trespasser is an official ambassador of his country. Not surprisingly it ends in tears for Dorian but at least it does end. |
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Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Jan 15, 2017 13:58:38 GMT
As for poisonous relationships, the one between Celene/Briala definitely counts. I admired Briala in Masked Empire for finally seeing through Celene and getting out of it, only for us to be given the option to throw her back in again in DAI and for her to agree. I liked to think that Briala was doing this purely from a political expediency perspective (it certainly sounded like that when she confirms that she helped save Celene) but then in Trespasser they are saying that they do seem genuinely happy back in each others company. I wonder if this was the writer over compensating again (like they did with Dorian/Bull) because of people criticising the pairing in DAI and other people objecting to making it poisonous in the first place. I always saw it as Briala (and Celene) falling back into their unhealthy relationship which is something that happens in real life as oppose to the writer changing his opinion about the relationship. If I recall correctly, Celene misinterprets Briala's actions as having been for her (Celene) and Briala does not correct her instead replying with a soft: "Celene...". This is based on the ending that *I recieved in Halamshiral where the two get back together and Duke Gaspard is arrested pending execution.
Can you point me towards where this is said in Trespasser?
While I can understand objecting to an unhealthy relationship if people feel the relationship is being portrayed in a positive thing but I don't think there's something wrong with featuring an unhealthy or otherwise questionable relationship if it is not portrayed as being a good thing. It is not as if this is a recent introduction to the series. Iron Bull staying in a relationship with the Inquisitor or Dorian fit with the character both if he stays with the Qun or if he does not. His betrayal in the case of the former make sense and in addition, I don't think people should be exempt from that consequence of their action just because they romanced him.
Just to be clear, this last portion of my post is not directed at you but at some of the criticisms I saw a long while ago about the pairings. I think the criticism you specifically are referring to is the one where Iron Bull is accused of basically sexually harassing Dorian into getting with him.
Note: *My character has no knowledge about the Masked Empire so I put aside whatever knowledge about the characters and their respective relationships that I was privy to.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 15, 2017 20:37:54 GMT
I agree that my PC would have no prior knowledge about just what happened between Celene and Briala and the reason given in the game for their break up doesn't really match what occurred in the book. It refers back to when Celene first had Briala arrested, which in fact they got past in the book and resumed their relationship. So naturally to my character, there appeared nothing particularly bad about reuniting them, unless they felt particularly aggrieved about Celene burning the elves of Halamshiral, in which case they let her die (I felt that my PC could have made some enquiries about what happened in the elven rebellion prior to the ball, so that knowledge was valid).
My comments about their relationship were as an outside observer looking in. It did just seem odd that having made the break as Briala did at the end of Masked Empire, she would happily engage back into the relationship bearing in mind the breaking point before was the knowledge that Celene had authorised the murder of her parents. However, as you point out, these things do happen in real life and I wouldn't have thought anything negative about their reconciliation based on the game alone but only because of my knowledge from the books.
The outcome if Bull remains in the Qun seemed to me to be foreseeable and the writers were being consistent in this having a negative result for both the Inquisitor and Dorian if they are in a relationship with him. If you play with fire, you get burned. Romancing a professed Qunari spy, who has demonstrated his loyalty to the organisation by sacrificing his troops that have been his boon companions for nearly 10 years, seems like playing with fire to me. I really couldn't understand why it would be a surprise to anyone it turning out the way it did.
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lobselvith8
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 16, 2017 0:39:22 GMT
I agree that my PC would have no prior knowledge about just what happened between Celene and Briala and the reason given in the game for their break up doesn't really match what occurred in the book. It refers back to when Celene first had Briala arrested, which in fact they got past in the book and resumed their relationship. So naturally to my character, there appeared nothing particularly bad about reuniting them, unless they felt particularly aggrieved about Celene burning the elves of Halamshiral, in which case they let her die (I felt that my PC could have made some enquiries about what happened in the elven rebellion prior to the ball, so that knowledge was valid). It's not like Celene killing thousands of men, women, and children is something that would be a secret. Halamshiral burning down is one of those things that I'd wager would be fairly easy to overhear once you've entered Orlais, especially if you're an elf. My comments about their relationship were as an outside observer looking in. It did just seem odd that having made the break as Briala did at the end of Masked Empire, she would happily engage back into the relationship bearing in mind the breaking point before was the knowledge that Celene had authorised the murder of her parents. However, as you point out, these things do happen in real life and I wouldn't have thought anything negative about their reconciliation based on the game alone but only because of my knowledge from the books. The quest does suffer from relying too much on the player having read TME to understand who these characters are and why there's a schism between them. The outcome if Bull remains in the Qun seemed to me to be foreseeable and the writers were being consistent in this having a negative result for both the Inquisitor and Dorian if they are in a relationship with him. If you play with fire, you get burned. Romancing a professed Qunari spy, who has demonstrated his loyalty to the organisation by sacrificing his troops that have been his boon companions for nearly 10 years, seems like playing with fire to me. I really couldn't understand why it would be a surprise to anyone it turning out the way it did. I think that had to do with some people feeling that the alliance could potentially change the Qunari, which Trespasser showed was not the case. |
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Post by phoray on Jan 16, 2017 6:07:15 GMT
Leliana and Marjolaine count more for the idea I was going for. However, it seems Leliana is more hung up on whether she likes killing people for a living more than whether or not she would ever have had the strength to break away from the life on her own. Thinking on it more, if Marjolaine hadn't tried to kill her, she may still be out there joy killing with her lesbian lover instead of breeding nugs as a retired spymaster/Divine.
I've personally managed to break away from both a toxic parent and a string of toxic romantic relationships. I sometimes wonder what life would have been like if I hadn't managed to do it. Definitely not as awesome. but I'm also proud that I did. But would I be the person I am if my toxic parent had just up and died, and I'd never freed myself of them prior? I may never have gotten pushed to that edge that made the switch flip in my head to not put up with that stuff anymore.If they're going to do unhealthy relationships with parents, they could explore other versions. Like the story in The Calling about an abusive parent, and the kid accidentally smothering his younger sister to keep her quiet. So much horror in that. Interesting decisions on whether or not to kill/not kill their evil parent with them. LOL
Anyway. I'm getting Off Topic.
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