inherit
The Good Drow
510
0
Apr 17, 2024 19:18:50 GMT
6,800
Gilli
Stuck in the Forgotten Realms
2,913
August 2016
gilli
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Gilli-chan
EMH-Bruce
2712
|
Post by Gilli on Jan 16, 2017 17:31:22 GMT
Leliana and Marjolaine count more for the idea I was going for. However, it seems Leliana is more hung up on whether she likes killing people for a living more than whether or not she would ever have had the strength to break away from the life on her own. Thinking on it more, if Marjolaine hadn't tried to kill her, she may still be out there joy killing with her lesbian lover instead of breeding nugs as a retired spymaster/Divine. I've personally managed to break away from both a toxic parent and a string of toxic romantic relationships. I sometimes wonder what life would have been like if I hadn't managed to do it. Definitely not as awesome. but I'm also proud that I did. But would I be the person I am if my toxic parent had just up and died, and I'd never freed myself of them prior? I may never have gotten pushed to that edge that made the switch flip in my head to not put up with that stuff anymore.If they're going to do unhealthy relationships with parents, they could explore other versions. Like the story in The Calling about an abusive parent, and the kid accidentally smothering his younger sister to keep her quiet. So much horror in that. Interesting decisions on whether or not to kill/not kill their evil parent with them. LOL Anyway. I'm getting Off Topic. Do you mean the Cole in Asunder? Cause I don't remember any abusive parents in The Calling. Only Dorian (yes same name, different character ) torturing his slave, Fiona in the Nightmare.
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 22, 2017 5:42:37 GMT
As for poisonous relationships, the one between Celene/Briala definitely counts. I admired Briala in Masked Empire for finally seeing through Celene and getting out of it, only for us to be given the option to throw her back in again in DAI and for her to agree. I liked to think that Briala was doing this purely from a political expediency perspective (it certainly sounded like that when she confirms that she helped save Celene) but then in Trespasser they are saying that they do seem genuinely happy back in each others company. I wonder if this was the writer over compensating again (like they did with Dorian/Bull) because of people criticising the pairing in DAI and other people objecting to making it poisonous in the first place. I always saw it as Briala (and Celene) falling back into their unhealthy relationship which is something that happens in real life as oppose to the writer changing his opinion about the relationship. If I recall correctly, Celene misinterprets Briala's actions as having been for her (Celene) and Briala does not correct her instead replying with a soft: "Celene...". This is based on the ending that *I recieved in Halamshiral where the two get back together and Duke Gaspard is arrested pending execution.
Can you point me towards where this is said in Trespasser? This note: I will very firmly disagree with the idea that their relationship must have plummeted back into its prior unhealthiness, which would make the entire endeavor pointless. It's far more fitting, in my opinion, that Celene realized that she'd, well, done a lot of rather nasty things regarding the elves and Briala herself, and--in private, naturally--attempted specifically to atone for them.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 22, 2017 6:28:05 GMT
^ I don't think that relationship can ever truly be healthy when it was never built on a true foundation to begin with; it was built on a foundation of lies and manipulation.
Normally, I'd say it's up to an individual person to decide for themselves whether they can forgive someone for whatever misdeeds. But we're not talking about someone having an affair or hiding something from their past. The Game, and Celene, caused the death of Briala's parents. Even though it was a noble goal, Briala herself used her connection to Celene to nudge her in certain directions regarding elves.
Both of these women are so indoctrinated into The Game, and have been since children, that I don't believe they can be "real" with another person.
Is there passion there, as that quote suggests? Certainly. People can have passionate sex, but it doesn't also mean that they have a real, honest, loving relationship.
|
|
lobselvith8
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
inherit
581
0
496
lobselvith8
426
August 2016
lobselvith8
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 22, 2017 6:31:27 GMT
This note: I will very firmly disagree with the idea that their relationship must have plummeted back into its prior unhealthiness, which would make the entire endeavor pointless. It's far more fitting, in my opinion, that Celene realized that she'd, well, done a lot of rather nasty things regarding the elves and Briala herself, and--in private, naturally--attempted specifically to atone for them. I understand the issue some have given how past canonical same sex relationships in Dragon Age were handled (Leliana & Marjolaine and Branka & Hespith were unhealthy, to say the least), but I don't think someone who burned down an entire city of men, women, and children (not to mention murdering Briala's parents and Celene's arguable fetishism of her elven lover) is necessarily going to change simply because Celene is paired together with Briala.
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 22, 2017 6:50:08 GMT
^ I don't think that relationship can ever truly be healthy when it was never built on a true foundation to begin with; it was built on a foundation of lies and manipulation. Normally, I'd say it's up to an individual person to decide for themselves whether they can forgive someone for whatever misdeeds. But we're not talking about someone having an affair or hiding something from their past. The Game, and Celene, caused the death of Briala's parents. Even though it was a noble goal, Briala herself used her connection to Celene to nudge her in certain directions regarding elves. Both of these women are so indoctrinated into The Game, and have been since children, that I don't believe they can be "real" with another person. Is there passion there, as that quote suggests? Certainly. People can have passionate sex, but it doesn't also mean that they have a real, honest, loving relationship. Leliana made it out. I have absolute faith that Briala can, and at least enough to be hopeful with Celene. I think they both realize now that honesty is really the only solution going forward, when dishonesty caused everything to collapse. This note: I will very firmly disagree with the idea that their relationship must have plummeted back into its prior unhealthiness, which would make the entire endeavor pointless. It's far more fitting, in my opinion, that Celene realized that she'd, well, done a lot of rather nasty things regarding the elves and Briala herself, and--in private, naturally--attempted specifically to atone for them. I understand the issue some have given how past canonical same sex relationships in Dragon Age were handled (Leliana & Marjolaine and Branka & Hespith were unhealthy, to say the least), but I don't think someone who burned down an entire city of men, women, and children (not to mention murdering Briala's parents and Celene's arguable fetishism of her elven lover) is necessarily going to change simply because Celene is paired together with Briala. It's not necessarily the case, true; it'll require headcanon either way, but I prefer optimism, as well as sticking it to TME. I won't gainsay your concerns about Celene, but I haven't lost all faith in her either.
|
|
oyabun
N3
Posts: 374 Likes: 214
inherit
1613
0
Aug 15, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
214
oyabun
374
Sept 17, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
September 2016
oyabun
|
Post by oyabun on Jan 22, 2017 17:32:55 GMT
Flemeth told to Hawke. "I'm not sure, whether she's your daughter or your enemy." "Neither is she."And Morrigan also said in DAO. Perhaps not directly, but somehow I never thought, that Morrigan's Flemeth biological daughter. Not because Flemeth seems old. I'd have to disagree about that serving as confirmation. Note that Flemeth's response is specifically: "Neither is she" meaning Morrigan is not sure whether she's Flemeth's daughter or her enemy. That does not mean that Flemeth is not Morrigan's biological mother, merely that Morrigan is not sure that she is. I believe this is the same case for Morrigan's dialogue about it in Origins.
But Catilina's point still wasn't disproven,there is no proof that she is a biological daughter of Flemeth,in the notes of the toolset of DAO she is adressed as some sort of grand-grand son of Flemeth not as her daughter.
|
|
Aren
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 75 Likes: 192
inherit
1887
0
192
Aren
75
Oct 29, 2016 23:09:57 GMT
October 2016
arenblack
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Aren on Jan 22, 2017 17:42:12 GMT
Saying that someone is dead or that it cannot be found for whatever reason is certainly the best way to avoid further costs within the production of a creative media.There is no need to look further than such explanation when considering the patterns in which often the parents of npc are treated.
|
|
inherit
1407
0
Sept 2, 2016 19:28:30 GMT
4,343
shechinah
Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
2,584
Sept 2, 2016 18:49:21 GMT
September 2016
shechinah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by shechinah on Jan 22, 2017 19:30:59 GMT
I'd have to disagree about that serving as confirmation. Note that Flemeth's response is specifically: "Neither is she" meaning Morrigan is not sure whether she's Flemeth's daughter or her enemy. That does not mean that Flemeth is not Morrigan's biological mother, merely that Morrigan is not sure that she is. I believe this is the same case for Morrigan's dialogue about it in Origins.
But Catilina's point still wasn't disproven,there is no proof that she is a biological daughter of Flemeth,in the notes of the toolset of DAO she is adressed as some sort of grand-grand son of Flemeth not as her daughter. And neither is my point as there is no proof that Morrigan is not Flemeth's biological daughter.
I looked to find the line you've mentioned and I believe I found it on Fextralife. It is the line I've bolded that you refer to, yes?
"The Flemeth scenes don't just have more comments on tone/intent for voice-over than the rest of the game, they also have plenty of "Editor Comments" - and many of these show the "Original Line" - presumably the original writing from David Gaider, possibly from before many other scenes in the game were even written given the importance of Flemeth and Morrigan to the overall story.
In morrigan_main.dlg under "I am at your disposal, Grey Wardens" (just after she joins the party), look for her response to the line "Are you really Flemeth's daughter?" - the actual response is not very interesting, but the 'Original' in the "Editor Comments" box on the "Editing" tab for her response is extremely interesting:
Technically, I am her grand-daughter. Perhaps there is a "grand" or two to add to that, but regardless it was she who raised me and thus I consider her my Mother. Or was your question really something else?"
Note that the granddaughter line is in response to this inquiry: "Are you really Flemeth's daughter?" and that this answer is not what Morrigan says in the game itself which suggests that the granddaughter line is an earlier version which was changed in later development to this line: "I assume you're asking whether Flemeth herself gave birth to me. Truly, I do not know. I once asked Flemeth that very question, and she merely laughed at me. 'Tis not inconcievable that she could capture a Chasing man, or perhaps change to a more attractive form to attract him willingly. I find it more difficult to imagine her with child."
Source: fextralife.com/forums/t274244/morrigan-is-flemeths-grandgranddaughter-from-toolset/ & Note: So grateful for Fextralife keeping the old forum archived.
|
|
inherit
2601
0
104
cooldude
117
January 2017
cooldude
|
Post by cooldude on Jan 22, 2017 22:14:38 GMT
I'm pretty sure Flemeth is Morrigan's biological mother. the developers put effort into making those two women resemble each other physically.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,660
gervaise21
10,774
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 23, 2017 20:32:16 GMT
If she was her granddaughter or great granddaughter then they could still resemble each other as they are still blood relatives. In my own case I resemble my maternal grandfather as a young man far more than either of my parents, whilst my brother looks far more like our paternal grandfather as a young man. So strong family resemblance can skip a generation.
However, it is possible they change their minds about the relationship at some point or wanted to leave it ambiguous. In the Silent Grove, Yavana claims to be Morrigan's sister and closely resembles her, so presumably blood relatives.
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Jan 23, 2017 23:09:35 GMT
Note that the only people in the setting with gold eyes are those with a direct connection to Mythal. The fact that Morrigan and Yavanna both have them is consistent with them being the biological daughters of Mythal's vessel.
|
|
Morrigan
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
Posts: 309 Likes: 403
inherit
2930
0
Sept 27, 2017 23:30:30 GMT
403
Morrigan
309
Jan 21, 2017 17:53:57 GMT
January 2017
morrigan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
|
Post by Morrigan on Jan 24, 2017 3:58:38 GMT
We know that the life-expectancy in the DA universe is long, because the wardens are bothered by having only 30 years from joining to calling.
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 17, 2024 22:13:56 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Jan 24, 2017 22:31:31 GMT
^ I don't think that relationship can ever truly be healthy when it was never built on a true foundation to begin with; it was built on a foundation of lies and manipulation. Normally, I'd say it's up to an individual person to decide for themselves whether they can forgive someone for whatever misdeeds. But we're not talking about someone having an affair or hiding something from their past. The Game, and Celene, caused the death of Briala's parents. Even though it was a noble goal, Briala herself used her connection to Celene to nudge her in certain directions regarding elves. Both of these women are so indoctrinated into The Game, and have been since children, that I don't believe they can be "real" with another person. Is there passion there, as that quote suggests? Certainly. People can have passionate sex, but it doesn't also mean that they have a real, honest, loving relationship. Leliana made it out. I have absolute faith that Briala can, and at least enough to be hopeful with Celene. I think they both realize now that honesty is really the only solution going forward, when dishonesty caused everything to collapse. I understand the issue some have given how past canonical same sex relationships in Dragon Age were handled (Leliana & Marjolaine and Branka & Hespith were unhealthy, to say the least), but I don't think someone who burned down an entire city of men, women, and children (not to mention murdering Briala's parents and Celene's arguable fetishism of her elven lover) is necessarily going to change simply because Celene is paired together with Briala. It's not necessarily the case, true; it'll require headcanon either way, but I prefer optimism, as well as sticking it to TME. I won't gainsay your concerns about Celene, but I haven't lost all faith in her either. Xil, in the past you have condemned Celene and Briala in The Masked Empire as badly written. How exactly? a) From Return to Ostagar, World of Thedas Volume One and dev comments we have known that Celene is a master manipulator who uses psychology and sex to bend people to her will, so you cannot say that she was out of character. Briala was new and had no basis for comparison, so you cannot say that she was out of character. c) We have all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark setting with complex and deeply flawed characters, so you cannot say their relationship did not fit the series tone. d) There have been far, far more examples of doomed heterosexual romances, so you cannot say that is was some vendetta against homosexual ones. Especially when several of the writers have expressed more interest in drama filled, possibly tragic romances across the board. Was your desire to be able to reconcile Briala and Celene one simply for more same sex couples in general, or them specifically? If so, just what about their relationship was so special that it deserved to be salvaged? More importantly, just what could they have offered to the story that a new, positive and healthy lesbian couple could not? Finally, suppose that from the end of TME to Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, Briala had moved on and found a woman better for her than Celene could ever be. Would you still demand their reunion?
|
|
inherit
507
0
Jun 21, 2021 22:15:41 GMT
5,802
Artemis
Somewhere, out there...
2,630
August 2016
artemis
CuriousArtemis
curiousartemis
|
Post by Artemis on Jan 25, 2017 0:00:23 GMT
Xil, in the past you have condemned Celene and Briala in The Masked Empire as badly written. How exactly? a) From Return to Ostagar, World of Thedas Volume One and dev comments we have known that Celene is a master manipulator who uses psychology and sex to bend people to her will, so you cannot say that she was out of character. Briala was new and had no basis for comparison, so you cannot say that she was out of character. c) We have all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark setting with complex and deeply flawed characters, so you cannot say their relationship did not fit the series tone. d) There have been far, far more examples of doomed heterosexual romances, so you cannot say that is was some vendetta against homosexual ones. Especially when several of the writers have expressed more interest in drama filled, possibly tragic romances across the board. Was your desire to be able to reconcile Briala and Celene one simply for more same sex couples in general, or them specifically? If so, just what about their relationship was so special that it deserved to be salvaged? More importantly, just what could they have offered to the story that a new, positive and healthy lesbian couple could not? Finally, suppose that from the end of TME to Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, Briala had moved on and found a woman better for her than Celene could ever be. Would you still demand their reunion? This kind of seems to have moved on from spirited discussion to personal attack? I mean not like you are being particularly rude to Xil, but you are sort of calling her out personally on her opinions and headcanons. It is okay to want Celene and Briala to be happy together because they are a lesbian couple and thus far the series has not -with the exception of the player character and her female lover- depicted a SINGLE happy lesbian romance. It's okay, too, to have simply fallen in love with their relationship, and to hope for the best. It's called having an OTP and rooting for your favorite couple. Happens all the time in fandom. As for this... "There have been far, far more examples of doomed heterosexual romances, so you cannot say that is was some vendetta against homosexual ones."
When there have been ZERO positive lesbian ones (and arguably zero gay ones; if you include Wade and Herron, I guess you could say the ratio is 1:1, with Zevran x Taliesin being the one negative) you really can't say that LGBT relationships haven't been portrayed more negatively. Percentage wise, they have. Especially when you consider that they are hardly portrayed at all.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Jan 25, 2017 3:54:25 GMT
Are Charter and Tessa considered canon? Dagna and Sera? Back on topic: aren't Harding's parents alive and well? I was just thinking, if she winds up being a companion in DA4 then I fear for their safety...
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 17, 2024 22:13:56 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2017 5:22:24 GMT
Seriously? Since when is it a personal attack to ask someone to clarify their reasoning? Maybe you could consider some of my preceding comments a pre-emptive strike to anticipate some of Xilizhra's responses, but that's just standard debate. I am all for positive and healthy LBGTQ relationships, and hope Bioware creates more in the future. However, Celene and Briala were. NOT. IT. Did you read The Masked Empire? As children, Celene constantly made not so veiled racist comments to Briala, and treated her little better than a pet. Yeah, yeah, all kids can be stupid and cruel. When making her move for the throne, Celene had most of her servants killed in a seemingly botched assassination in order to drum up sympathy, including BRIALA'S PARENTS. Celene kept this from Briala while bedding her for years, and never once felt guilty. All the work Briala thought she was doing to improve the lives of Elves? Mere breadcrumbs, a carrot Celene dangled to keep her compliant. When Briala confronted her Empress over the murder of over 3,000 Elves in Halamshiral, Celene used the old I Did What I Had To excuse, and even tried to make Briala feel guilty for daring to question her! During one of their separations, we see Celene's thoughts on how she'll "take her some where nice and safe where everything can go back to the way it was". In essence, Celene was planning on placing Briala under house arrest until she submitted. Last but not least, upon finally losing the rose colored glasses and deducing Celene's part in her parents' death, Briala still can't get any remorse or even a fake apology. All because Celene was too prideful, deluded, and sociopathic to see anyone, even those she supposedly loves, as anything more than tools in the Great Game. Truly, a love of the ages . All of this by itself is injury enough, but then Inquisition had to add the single worst insult they possibly could have: Pretend it never happened. Aside from how stupid it makes Briala to not inform the Inquisitor of Celene's true character, this retcon is the greatest weapon abusers hold over their victims. This is not some anecdotal hyperbole, but very, very personal to me. Friends and family of mine (mostly women, but a few men too), people I love dearly, have been emotionally, physically, financially, and sexually abused by monsters who convinced them that everything would be fine if they just pretend it never happened. In one case when one woman had enough of the lies and fists and finally left, her bastard husband murdered her. Rationally, I know this is just a video game and I shouldn't take it so personally. I wholeheartedly agree that LBGTQ people deserve positive representation. I'm sure Patrick Weekes' heart was in the right place when he changed his mind and decided to allow players to reconcile Briala and Celene. But in this specific instance, he created the unintended and unfortunate implication that it's all right for abuse survivors to take back their abusers. I honestly can't see what good a reunited Celene and Briala could bring to Dragon Age that new, healthy LBGTQ couples without such baggage couldn't.
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 5:44:56 GMT
Xil, in the past you have condemned Celene and Briala in The Masked Empire as badly written. How exactly? a) From Return to Ostagar, World of Thedas Volume One and dev comments we have known that Celene is a master manipulator who uses psychology and sex to bend people to her will, so you cannot say that she was out of character. Briala was new and had no basis for comparison, so you cannot say that she was out of character. c) We have all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark setting with complex and deeply flawed characters, so you cannot say their relationship did not fit the series tone. d) There have been far, far more examples of doomed heterosexual romances, so you cannot say that is was some vendetta against homosexual ones. Especially when several of the writers have expressed more interest in drama filled, possibly tragic romances across the board. Was your desire to be able to reconcile Briala and Celene one simply for more same sex couples in general, or them specifically? If so, just what about their relationship was so special that it deserved to be salvaged? More importantly, just what could they have offered to the story that a new, positive and healthy lesbian couple could not? Finally, suppose that from the end of TME to Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, Briala had moved on and found a woman better for her than Celene could ever be. Would you still demand their reunion? [/quote] If the authors had no vendetta against lesbian relationships, they showed that fact extremely poorly throughout all DA media up until DAI itself. And my desire is partially motivated by spite against TME, but also because I want things to work out for both of them relationshipwise. I am all for positive and healthy LBGTQ relationships, and hope Bioware creates more in the future. However, Celene and Briala were. NOT. IT. Did you read The Masked Empire? As children, Celene constantly made not so veiled racist comments to Briala, and treated her little better than a pet. Yeah, yeah, all kids can be stupid and cruel. When making her move for the throne, Celene had most of her servants killed in a seemingly botched assassination in order to drum up sympathy, including BRIALA'S PARENTS. Celene kept this from Briala while bedding her for years, and never once felt guilty. All the work Briala thought she was doing to improve the lives of Elves? Mere breadcrumbs, a carrot Celene dangled to keep her compliant. When Briala confronted her Empress over the murder of over 3,000 Elves in Halamshiral, Celene used the old I Did What I Had To excuse, and even tried to make Briala feel guilty for daring to question her! During one of their separations, we see Celene's thoughts on how she'll "take her some where nice and safe where everything can go back to the way it was". In essence, Celene was planning on placing Briala under house arrest until she submitted. Last but not least, upon finally losing the rose colored glasses and deducing Celene's part in her parents' death, Briala still can't get any remorse or even a fake apology. All because Celene was too prideful, deluded, and sociopathic to see anyone, even those she supposedly loves, as anything more than tools in the Great Game. Truly, a love of the ages . All of this by itself is injury enough, but then Inquisition had to add the single worst insult they possibly could have: Pretend it never happened. Aside from how stupid it makes Briala to not inform the Inquisitor of Celene's true character, this retcon is the greatest weapon abusers hold over their victims. This is not some anecdotal hyperbole, but very, very personal to me. Friends and family of mine (mostly women, but a few men too), people I love dearly, have been emotionally, physically, financially, and sexually abused by monsters who convinced them that everything would be fine if they just pretend it never happened. In one case when one woman had enough of the lies and fists and finally left, her bastard husband murdered her. Rationally, I know this is just a video game and I shouldn't take it so personally. I wholeheartedly agree that LBGTQ people deserve positive representation. I'm sure Patrick Weekes' heart was in the right place when he changed his mind and decided to allow players to reconcile Briala and Celene. But in this specific instance, he created the unintended and unfortunate implication that it's all right for abuse survivors to take back their abusers. I honestly can't see what good a reunited Celene and Briala could bring to Dragon Age that new, healthy LBGTQ couples without such baggage couldn't. I'm sorry for the situation with your friends, but this relationship is absolutely the wrong time for the game to start delving specifically into the idea of abusive relationships. I'm not saying that I like the setup of it all, but I tend to think that even a terrible patch job is better than lesbian relationships existing solely as cautionary tales up until this point. Now, granted, I would have enjoyed seeing more of the details of the reconciliation; I think it'd be extremely important for them... but there's no logical reason to show that to the Inquisitor. It'd have to be some kind of website-mounted short story, like the Calpernia and Samson ones. Which would have been far preferable, I admit.
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 17, 2024 22:13:56 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2017 6:00:54 GMT
Are Charter and Tessa considered canon? Dagna and Sera? Sera and Dagna just baffle me, as they never interacted in the game proper. I'm surprised this particular ship doesn't get more hate, since Sera was able to put aside her prejudice of magic for Dagna, when she wouldn't for a Pro-Dalish Lavellan, or other Inquisitors who drank from the Well of Sorrows.
Well, if it works, good for them. If it's just a fling, a small part of me hopes Dagna is our Mad Scientist Companion in DA4. Seriously, can you imagine Dagna in Tevinter ?
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 17, 2024 22:13:56 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2017 6:11:24 GMT
Xil, in the past you have condemned Celene and Briala in The Masked Empire as badly written. How exactly? a) From Return to Ostagar, World of Thedas Volume One and dev comments we have known that Celene is a master manipulator who uses psychology and sex to bend people to her will, so you cannot say that she was out of character. Briala was new and had no basis for comparison, so you cannot say that she was out of character. c) We have all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark setting with complex and deeply flawed characters, so you cannot say their relationship did not fit the series tone. d) There have been far, far more examples of doomed heterosexual romances, so you cannot say that is was some vendetta against homosexual ones. Especially when several of the writers have expressed more interest in drama filled, possibly tragic romances across the board. Was your desire to be able to reconcile Briala and Celene one simply for more same sex couples in general, or them specifically? If so, just what about their relationship was so special that it deserved to be salvaged? More importantly, just what could they have offered to the story that a new, positive and healthy lesbian couple could not? Finally, suppose that from the end of TME to Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, Briala had moved on and found a woman better for her than Celene could ever be. Would you still demand their reunion? If the authors had no vendetta against lesbian relationships, they showed that fact extremely poorly throughout all DA media up until DAI itself. And my desire is partially motivated by spite against TME, but also because I want things to work out for both of them relationshipwise. I am all for positive and healthy LBGTQ relationships, and hope Bioware creates more in the future. However, Celene and Briala were. NOT. IT. Did you read The Masked Empire? As children, Celene constantly made not so veiled racist comments to Briala, and treated her little better than a pet. Yeah, yeah, all kids can be stupid and cruel. When making her move for the throne, Celene had most of her servants killed in a seemingly botched assassination in order to drum up sympathy, including BRIALA'S PARENTS. Celene kept this from Briala while bedding her for years, and never once felt guilty. All the work Briala thought she was doing to improve the lives of Elves? Mere breadcrumbs, a carrot Celene dangled to keep her compliant. When Briala confronted her Empress over the murder of over 3,000 Elves in Halamshiral, Celene used the old I Did What I Had To excuse, and even tried to make Briala feel guilty for daring to question her! During one of their separations, we see Celene's thoughts on how she'll "take her some where nice and safe where everything can go back to the way it was". In essence, Celene was planning on placing Briala under house arrest until she submitted. Last but not least, upon finally losing the rose colored glasses and deducing Celene's part in her parents' death, Briala still can't get any remorse or even a fake apology. All because Celene was too prideful, deluded, and sociopathic to see anyone, even those she supposedly loves, as anything more than tools in the Great Game. Truly, a love of the ages . All of this by itself is injury enough, but then Inquisition had to add the single worst insult they possibly could have: Pretend it never happened. Aside from how stupid it makes Briala to not inform the Inquisitor of Celene's true character, this retcon is the greatest weapon abusers hold over their victims. This is not some anecdotal hyperbole, but very, very personal to me. Friends and family of mine (mostly women, but a few men too), people I love dearly, have been emotionally, physically, financially, and sexually abused by monsters who convinced them that everything would be fine if they just pretend it never happened. In one case when one woman had enough of the lies and fists and finally left, her bastard husband murdered her. Rationally, I know this is just a video game and I shouldn't take it so personally. I wholeheartedly agree that LBGTQ people deserve positive representation. I'm sure Patrick Weekes' heart was in the right place when he changed his mind and decided to allow players to reconcile Briala and Celene. But in this specific instance, he created the unintended and unfortunate implication that it's all right for abuse survivors to take back their abusers. I honestly can't see what good a reunited Celene and Briala could bring to Dragon Age that new, healthy LBGTQ couples without such baggage couldn't. I'm sorry for the situation with your friends, but this relationship is absolutely the wrong time for the game to start delving specifically into the idea of abusive relationships. I'm not saying that I like the setup of it all, but I tend to think that even a terrible patch job is better than lesbian relationships existing solely as cautionary tales up until this point. Now, granted, I would have enjoyed seeing more of the details of the reconciliation; I think it'd be extremely important for them... but there's no logical reason to show that to the Inquisitor. It'd have to be some kind of website-mounted short story, like the Calpernia and Samson ones. Which would have been far preferable, I admit. [/quote][/p]
With all due respect, you didn't exactly answer my main point: just what could a reconciled Celene and Briala, and Celene and Briala alone provide to the story that a new, positive and healthy lesbian couple could not?
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 6:13:55 GMT
With all due respect, you didn't exactly answer my main point: just what could a reconciled Celene and Briala, and Celene and Briala alone provide to the story that a new, positive and healthy lesbian couple could not? Undoing TME's crap. Also, getting an elf-favorable royal semi-marriage in position in Orlais.
|
|
inherit
Resident Diplomat
526
0
8,896
Natashina
In lurking mode, playing the ME games.
2,340
August 2016
natashina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights
16,553
19,139
|
Post by Natashina on Jan 25, 2017 6:52:15 GMT
I'm gonna be watching to see where this conversation track goes. Keep it civil please.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 25, 2017 7:18:12 GMT
Are Charter and Tessa considered canon? Dagna and Sera? Back on topic: aren't Harding's parents alive and well? I was just thinking, if she winds up being a companion in DA4 then I fear for their safety... We can't know about Charter/Tessa unless they appear in future games. That is my primary bar, to be honest. Or at least whether the content is mentioned in future games. Cassandra directly references the events of her anime movie in DAI, therefore it is canon. Varric directly references meeting the new Arishok, aka DAO's Sten, therefore that is canon insofar as it can be considering Alistair's involvement, who could very well be dead. Cole directly mentions events in Asunder, therefore that is canon insofar as it can be considering both Wynne and Shale's involvement, both of whom could be dead. If either of them show up in DA4, and they are a LI, then it apparently was not canon. Or I suppose you could consider that they broke up off screen. If either show up in DA4, but are not a LI, then you could say it is canon and just never addressed in the game (or it might be, if they are both featured, who knows?) I think different people will look at optional romances like Sera/Dagna or Dorian/Bull in different ways. Whether they get together is conditional on player action. Sera/Dagna is canon for my plays, and I think the pairing is cute. Dorian/Bull is not since I romance Dorian and don't recruit Bull.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 25, 2017 7:32:55 GMT
Are Charter and Tessa considered canon? Dagna and Sera? Sera and Dagna just baffle me, as they never interacted in the game proper. I'm surprised this particular ship doesn't get more hate, since Sera was able to put aside her prejudice of magic for Dagna, when she wouldn't for a Pro-Dalish Lavellan, or other Inquisitors who drank from the Well of Sorrows.
Well, if it works, good for them. If it's just a fling, a small part of me hopes Dagna is our Mad Scientist Companion in DA4. Seriously, can you imagine Dagna in Tevinter ?
Sera also sets aside her prejudice against magic for a human and qunari mage Inquisitor. Besides, Dagna just studies magic and isn't in any danger of herself becoming possessed by a demon, as mages are. I'd think that affords a greater degree of safety than an actual mage. And she thinks dwarfs are cute. Also, it actually IS referenced in the main game if you follow her journal entries. This appears near the end if you did not romance her. Granted, I would have liked to have a scene where, as you are going into the Undercroft, you see Sera leaving in a brief cinematic, or the same with Dagna on entering Sera's room. IMO it would have been relatively simple to add this as a conditional cinematic if the player meets one of several criteria: (1) not female, (2) if female, romance lock in with someone else, (3) if female, must have broken up with Sera in a prior scene, (4) regardless of gender, if not romanced Sera by Temple of Mythal (when romances are locked out altogether). However, that would require resources to actually produce said cinematic, even if it is a very short one and involved no voice acting. Sera leaving the Undercroft and winking at the Inquisitor as she goes by, who is like o_O, would have been great. There is a similar type of moment with Isabela and Fenris in Act 3 of DA2, and also between Varric and Anders in Act 3.
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 17, 2024 22:13:56 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2017 7:44:47 GMT
Sera and Dagna just baffle me, as they never interacted in the game proper. I'm surprised this particular ship doesn't get more hate, since Sera was able to put aside her prejudice of magic for Dagna, when she wouldn't for a Pro-Dalish Lavellan, or other Inquisitors who drank from the Well of Sorrows.
Well, if it works, good for them. If it's just a fling, a small part of me hopes Dagna is our Mad Scientist Companion in DA4. Seriously, can you imagine Dagna in Tevinter ?
Sera also sets aside her prejudice against magic for a human and qunari mage Inquisitor. Besides, Dagna just studies magic and isn't in any danger of herself becoming possessed by a demon, as mages are. I'd think that affords a greater degree of safety than an actual mage. And she thinks dwarfs are cute. Also, it actually IS referenced in the main game if you follow her journal entries. This appears near the end if you did not romance her. Granted, I would have liked to have a scene where, are you are going into the Undercroft, you see Sera leaving in a brief cinematic, or the same with Dagna on entering Sera's room. IMO it would have been relatively simple to add this as a conditional cinematic if the player meets one of several criteria: (1) not female, (2) if female, romance lock in with someone else, (3) if female, must have broken up with Sera in a prior scene, (4) regardless of gender, if not romanced Sera by Temple of Mythal (when romances are locked out altogether). However, that would require resources to actually produce said cinematic, even if it is a very short one and involved no voice acting. Sera leaving the Undercroft and winking at the Inquisitor as she goes by, who is like o_O, would have been great. There is a similar type of moment with Isabela and Fenris in Act 3 of DA2, and also between Varric and Anders in Act 3. I don't know, I can imagine Sera freaking out when Dagna experimented with the Fade materials and "grew as big the mountains" and "thought all the thoughts" ...
|
|
lobselvith8
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
inherit
581
0
496
lobselvith8
426
August 2016
lobselvith8
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 25, 2017 10:46:11 GMT
I am all for positive and healthy LBGTQ relationships, and hope Bioware creates more in the future. However, Celene and Briala were. NOT. IT. Did you read The Masked Empire? As children, Celene constantly made not so veiled racist comments to Briala, and treated her little better than a pet. Yeah, yeah, all kids can be stupid and cruel. When making her move for the throne, Celene had most of her servants killed in a seemingly botched assassination in order to drum up sympathy, including BRIALA'S PARENTS. Celene kept this from Briala while bedding her for years, and never once felt guilty. All the work Briala thought she was doing to improve the lives of Elves? Mere breadcrumbs, a carrot Celene dangled to keep her compliant. When Briala confronted her Empress over the murder of over 3,000 Elves in Halamshiral, Celene used the old I Did What I Had To excuse, and even tried to make Briala feel guilty for daring to question her! During one of their separations, we see Celene's thoughts on how she'll "take her some where nice and safe where everything can go back to the way it was". In essence, Celene was planning on placing Briala under house arrest until she submitted. Last but not least, upon finally losing the rose colored glasses and deducing Celene's part in her parents' death, Briala still can't get any remorse or even a fake apology. All because Celene was too prideful, deluded, and sociopathic to see anyone, even those she supposedly loves, as anything more than tools in the Great Game. Truly, a love of the ages . All of this by itself is injury enough, but then Inquisition had to add the single worst insult they possibly could have: Pretend it never happened. Aside from how stupid it makes Briala to not inform the Inquisitor of Celene's true character, this retcon is the greatest weapon abusers hold over their victims. This is not some anecdotal hyperbole, but very, very personal to me. Friends and family of mine (mostly women, but a few men too), people I love dearly, have been emotionally, physically, financially, and sexually abused by monsters who convinced them that everything would be fine if they just pretend it never happened. In one case when one woman had enough of the lies and fists and finally left, her bastard husband murdered her. Inquisition shied away from that, as well as Celene's action in burning down Halamshiral and murdering thousands of innocent people because of a play that depicted Shartan and Andraste as lovers, which she thought was mocking her relationship with Briala. Thousands of men, women, and children burned alive because she wanted to prove her imagined naysayers wrong. Inquisition also didn't address Gaspard petitioning to hunt down Dalish clans as if they were animals, backing people to write theses about how the ears of elves indicate that they're actually animals and any human/elven union is bestiality, or how Celene being a woman may be part of his issue with her being a leader. Rationally, I know this is just a video game and I shouldn't take it so personally. I wholeheartedly agree that LBGTQ people deserve positive representation. I'm sure Patrick Weekes' heart was in the right place when he changed his mind and decided to allow players to reconcile Briala and Celene. But in this specific instance, he created the unintended and unfortunate implication that it's all right for abuse survivors to take back their abusers. I honestly can't see what good a reunited Celene and Briala could bring to Dragon Age that new, healthy LBGTQ couples without such baggage couldn't. As TME is part of the canon, I don't see how it'll ever be a healthy relationship. I have no problem supporting Briala to the throne - the Epilogue does out of it's way to address that she's actually making reforms that the elves are benefiting from, which isn't the case if she's Celene's lover again. As for Weekes' heart being in the first place, I don't know about what. I question a lot of things he did. Giving us another unhealthy, abusive lesbian relationship doesn't help matters, and I'm not fond of how one-dimensional approach to the Dalish, which is at odds with his three-dimensional depiction of racists like Celene, Gaspard, and Michel.
|
|