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flyingsquirrel
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flyingsquirrel
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 18, 2017 6:21:22 GMT
DA:I and Fallout 4, however, are demonstrations of the "OK, enough already" factor when games do "more and bigger" the wrong way - i.e. fetch quests and repetitive combat that offer nothing new beyond maybe an environment that you haven't seen before. Personally, that isn't enough for it to feel like time well spent for me. Yeah, the Minutemen quests are a prime example of that, but I did like how Fallout 4 allowed the factions to be populated by people who aren't evil. It's nice to side with a faction and have another be your opponent without them turning evil to make it easier for you to fight them. The ideological schism over artificial intelligence between the Eastern Brotherhood of Steel and the Railroad was an example of where Fallout 4 succeeded for me, particularly when you have to fight people you've come to know because they're on the opposing side of the issue. The problem I had was that some of them were so stick-in-the-mud unreasonable about it. Not that I expected the Railroad to be willing to "compromise" when it comes to their own rights, but was killing everyone on the BoS airship really necessary? The Brotherhood and the Railroad seem only tangentially opposed to each other - yes, the Brotherhood don't think that synths are human and want the advanced technology for themselves, but there must be a few reasonable members who realize they aren't going to get all of it and that some sort of truce where the two organizations stay out of each others' hair might be beneficial. Or couldn't the Sole Survivor try to negotiate something? I mean, the Courier can get the BoS, the Great Khans, the Boomers, the Enclave remnants, and the NCR all on the same side. As for the Institute, it almost became comical how they would repeatedly ask for my opinion about things and then completely ignore it.
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SofaJockey
Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 18, 2017 7:14:35 GMT
I see this thread is now with more goat...
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The Pathfinder
638
0
Sept 22, 2017 23:01:09 GMT
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Serza
Rendering planets viable since 2017
6,272
August 2016
serza
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
13152
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Post by Serza on Jan 18, 2017 8:38:21 GMT
That guy really thinks I'm a liberal?
Erm... Good job, pal.
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lobselvith8
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
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496
lobselvith8
426
August 2016
lobselvith8
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 18, 2017 12:27:16 GMT
Yeah, the Minutemen quests are a prime example of that, but I did like how Fallout 4 allowed the factions to be populated by people who aren't evil. It's nice to side with a faction and have another be your opponent without them turning evil to make it easier for you to fight them. The ideological schism over artificial intelligence between the Eastern Brotherhood of Steel and the Railroad was an example of where Fallout 4 succeeded for me, particularly when you have to fight people you've come to know because they're on the opposing side of the issue. The problem I had was that some of them were so stick-in-the-mud unreasonable about it. Not that I expected the Railroad to be willing to "compromise" when it comes to their own rights, but was killing everyone on the BoS airship really necessary? The Brotherhood and the Railroad seem only tangentially opposed to each other - yes, the Brotherhood don't think that synths are human and want the advanced technology for themselves, but there must be a few reasonable members who realize they aren't going to get all of it and that some sort of truce where the two organizations stay out of each others' hair might be beneficial. Or couldn't the Sole Survivor try to negotiate something? I mean, the Courier can get the BoS, the Great Khans, the Boomers, the Enclave remnants, and the NCR all on the same side. As for the Institute, it almost became comical how they would repeatedly ask for my opinion about things and then completely ignore it. Well, it's more that the Eastern chapter of the Brotherhood believes that unrestricted artificial intelligence can potentially lead to another apocalypse, which isn't an outlandish position given that there are others who have echoed similar sentiments in real life, like Stephen Hawking, who said: "The development of full artificial intelligence could spell the end of the human race." For the Brotherhood of Steel, the stakes are just too high. As for the Courier, the protagonist could get different allies fighting for the same cause, but there were still problems. The Great Khans suffer if the NCR are aligned with the main character, for example, because a temporary alliance with the lead character doesn't solve all the long-term issues. The schism between the Brotherhood and the Railroad is different given the gravity of the difference - the Brotherhood views highly advanced synths as a path that can potentially bring an end to the remnants of humanity, while the Railroad view highly advanced synths as people and want to keep them safe. I think the Institute was more about the illusion of choice. Father tells you that he wants you to help, but if you look at what he says before that, you were pretty much just an experiment to him - what would happen if you were free? What would happen if there were enough clues left behind for you to find Kellog? You're not really an ally, but someone he wants to mold into a particular way to act as his surrogate. That seems to be why he takes the positions that he does with the Railroad and the Brotherhood, no matter what you say.
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SofNascimento
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Aug 27, 2016 13:51:04 GMT
August 2016
sofnascimento
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 18, 2017 13:37:24 GMT
I've been replaying DAI and although it only fixed in my mind that it is a great game, it does remind me of some of its shortcomings.
I've noted this before, but the more I play the clearer it gets how clueless some of the people working on the game were about how much exposition by writing that game had and how bad it could be.
It's like everybody in that universe kept a jornal or left notes talking about what was happening. 'My house is burning down? Better write about i't. 'Oh look, Templars! Let me just write how scared I am and that I'm worried about mother because she left early to search for food because we're starving". "Oh, I'm going to fall from this cliff, it's good that I have a diary with me with my whole life story for someone to find!". Just... urgh.
I believe DAI suffered from problems in the highest level of its development team. People didn't have the necessary vision and foresight to realize mistakes that were being made or problems that would be inevitable unless they changed what they were doing. So in the end instead of 1 or 2 great sidequests that would let you first hand experience some of the tragedies of war, you had 20 notes about people saying pretty much the same thing and 5 fetch quests with minimal story. But then, that's never being Inquisition's goal, they don't want to show ugly things.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,650
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Agent 46
177
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:12:21 GMT
6,650
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,671
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 18, 2017 14:20:40 GMT
I've been replaying DAI and although it only fixed in my mind that it is a great game, it does remind me of some of its shortcomings. I've noted this before, but the more I play the clearer it gets how clueless some of the people working on the game were about how much exposition by writing that game had and how bad it could be. It's like everybody in that universe kept a jornal or left notes talking about what was happening. 'My house is burning down? Better write about i't. 'Oh look, Templars! Let me just write how scared I am and that I'm worried about mother because she left early to search for food because we're starving". "Oh, I'm going to fall from this cliff, it's good that I have a diary with me with my whole life story for someone to find!". Just... urgh. This seems to be an oddly common rookie mistake that even professional authors make once in a while. My personal biggest offender is Frank Belknap Long's "The Hounds of Tindalos", where a diary entry actually ends with something along the lines of "They're here! Aaargh..." Of course, the Witcher 3 makes fun of this somewhere in the Blood and Wine expansion, where one found diary scrap reads "Why is every nitwit suddenly keeping a diary here? Fine fine, here I go..." or something like that. I believe DAI suffered from problems in the highest level of its development team. People didn't have the necessary vision and foresight to realize mistakes that were being made or problems that would be inevitable unless they changed what they were doing. So in the end instead of 1 or 2 great sidequests that would let you first hand experience some of the tragedies of war, you had 20 notes about people saying pretty much the same thing and 5 fetch quests with minimal story. But then, that's never being Inquisition's goal, they don't want to show ugly things. I think they didn't quite know where to go with their game or made sweeping changes late in the development phase. It looks to me like it was originally planned to play MMOish, but then was changed to a single player experience, keeping some of the hallmarks of MMOs - fetch quests, respawning enemies, requisitions and the like. They have quite a few talented and industrious people at BioWare, but it seems to me that their project planning has a tendency to jump off the rails.
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Draining Dragon
N4
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Draining Dragon
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 2,178 Likes: 7,575
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7,575
Draining Dragon
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
2,178
August 2016
drainingdragon
Draining Dragon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jan 18, 2017 22:02:16 GMT
I'd just like to remind everyone that personal attacks are not allowed. Let's keep this civil.
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Pokemario
N3
First of the Dalish
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Pokemario
Posts: 311 Likes: 540
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First of the Dalish
1187
0
540
Pokemario
311
August 2016
pokemario
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Pokemario on Jan 20, 2017 11:51:11 GMT
DA>ME>TW for me.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:47:07 GMT
10,073
AnDromedary
4,372
Nov 10, 2016 16:30:09 GMT
November 2016
andromedary
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 20, 2017 17:15:49 GMT
I've been replaying DAI and although it only fixed in my mind that it is a great game, it does remind me of some of its shortcomings. I've noted this before, but the more I play the clearer it gets how clueless some of the people working on the game were about how much exposition by writing that game had and how bad it could be. It's like everybody in that universe kept a jornal or left notes talking about what was happening. 'My house is burning down? Better write about i't. 'Oh look, Templars! Let me just write how scared I am and that I'm worried about mother because she left early to search for food because we're starving". "Oh, I'm going to fall from this cliff, it's good that I have a diary with me with my whole life story for someone to find!". Just... urgh. This seems to be an oddly common rookie mistake that even professional authors make once in a while. My personal biggest offender is Frank Belknap Long's "The Hounds of Tindalos", where a diary entry actually ends with something along the lines of "They're here! Aaargh..." Of course, the Witcher 3 makes fun of this somewhere in the Blood and Wine expansion, where one found diary scrap reads "Why is every nitwit suddenly keeping a diary here? Fine fine, here I go..." or something like that. I believe DAI suffered from problems in the highest level of its development team. People didn't have the necessary vision and foresight to realize mistakes that were being made or problems that would be inevitable unless they changed what they were doing. So in the end instead of 1 or 2 great sidequests that would let you first hand experience some of the tragedies of war, you had 20 notes about people saying pretty much the same thing and 5 fetch quests with minimal story. But then, that's never being Inquisition's goal, they don't want to show ugly things. I think they didn't quite know where to go with their game or made sweeping changes late in the development phase. It looks to me like it was originally planned to play MMOish, but then was changed to a single player experience, keeping some of the hallmarks of MMOs - fetch quests, respawning enemies, requisitions and the like. They have quite a few talented and industrious people at BioWare, but it seems to me that their project planning has a tendency to jump off the rails. Personally - and this is pure speculation - I believe that many of DA:I's problems are a result of this being BW's first open world game. Let's face it, they never had to design anything like this before. All previous BW games (at least since 2003 but I'd argue possibly even before) are ultimately very linear level based affairs. Yes, you can choose the order in which to do some of these levels and there are some (very limited) consequences to that order (a dialogue line here, an alternative option to solve a quest there) but overall, these fairly isolated levels are very linear in their approach. So now, BW had a completely new challenge. They had fairly massive open environments which they needed to fill up and because BW's reputation kinda requires them to deliver story, story, story, they went with the simplest approach possible = written text = journals, letters, etc. Maybe due to the engine change, the level designers, artists and programmers first of all worked to create these beautiful and extensive environments and afterwards, the writers were asked to now fill it up, possibly with not enough time left to make everything into an intricate quest with NPCs, voice acting, cutscenes and everything. I really do hope that DA:I's structure is to a large extent the result of the simultaneous change in game engine and design philosophy. If that is the case, I think we can expect to see lot's of improvements in ME:A as they should have learned a lot of lessons from DA:I.
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