adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 13:31:30 GMT
BW wanted a second bossfight Bioware clearly wanted both Orsino and Meredith killed by Hawke, no matter her/his decision to support the mages or templars. BW wanted/forced Hawke to make that decision, but also wanted the same outcome REGARDLESS of who`s side Hawke takes. This was the best outcome for BW: making the players engaged by forcing an emotional decision, then designing the plot in a way that mostly strips away any meaningful consequence from the said decision. So they choose to make both of them (Orsino and Meredith) insane at the end. The desired outcome (both dead) without the moral element. Killing an insane character doesn`t matter for Hawke`s initial choice. Siding with the mages and killing a crazy Orsino, or siding with the templars and killing a crazy Meredith doesn`t mean Hawke stopped supporting the mages/templars. (S)he just put down a crazed monster. Thus the harvester and the red lyrium. Symmetrical, liked by EA (game sales) and hated by fans. As you said, it would have been better for DA2 if both Orsino and Meredith would have kept their sanity and attack each other, forcing Hawke to kill both.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 14:05:41 GMT
Neither Orsino, nor Meredith are innocent and "white". Orsino made an omission, but this understandable in his position. A slave does not belong with loyalty to his master, Orsino was too loyal in my eyes, we can not expect more from him, even if he was the senior slave. In contrast, Meredith have power and tools for a less cruel regulation, but she considered mages as enemy against whom any method permitted (no matter what said with teary-eyed sometimes – we can experience, how manipulative she can be, for example when se blackmail Hawke with his/her sister, and at the gallows, when she says, that her heart is broken – but already sent the request for the Annulment). You`re right. The saddest part of DA2 for me was the fact that the final outcome was reached by the actions of three possessed characters: Anders, Meredith and Orsino. Completely unnecessary. It`s sad because all three were well designed characters, even Orsino with the shortest screen time of the three. Think about Anders. The first time Hawke see him in DA2 was in his clinic, healing a sick child. Compare this with his action in Act 3. Something similar happens when Hawke first meet Meredith and Orsino, although those scenes are much weaker. And the first scene (impression) is very important in DA2. Now compare the Meredith/Orsino from the first encounter with Hawke with their last act. It simply doesn`t make sense. My guess is that BW wanted to end DA2 with an unique outcome: war between mages and templars, the Chantry destroyed and all important leaders from Kirkwall dead - Dumar, Elthina, Orsino, Meredith. They were forced to finish the game quickly, so they used a deus ex machina ending: possession. No need to explain, to elaborate, to exemplify. It`s easy to say "well, those were no longer Anders, Meredith, Orsino". While I think BW could have reached the same end with all three completely sane and with no possession. And what an ending could have been...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 27, 2017 15:10:17 GMT
Neither Orsino, nor Meredith are innocent and "white". Orsino made an omission, but this understandable in his position. A slave does not belong with loyalty to his master, Orsino was too loyal in my eyes, we can not expect more from him, even if he was the senior slave. In contrast, Meredith have power and tools for a less cruel regulation, but she considered mages as enemy against whom any method permitted (no matter what said with teary-eyed sometimes – we can experience, how manipulative she can be, for example when se blackmail Hawke with his/her sister, and at the gallows, when she says, that her heart is broken – but already sent the request for the Annulment). You`re right. The saddest part of DA2 for me was the fact that the final outcome was reached by the actions of three possessed characters: Anders, Meredith and Orsino. Completely unnecessary. It`s sad because all three were well designed characters, even Orsino with the shortest screen time of the three. Think about Anders. The first time Hawke see him in DA2 was in his clinic, healing a sick child. Compare this with his action in Act 3. Something similar happens when Hawke first meet Meredith and Orsino, although those scenes are much weaker. And the first scene (impression) is very important in DA2. Now compare the Meredith/Orsino from the first encounter with Hawke with their last act. It simply doesn`t make sense. My guess is that BW wanted to end DA2 with an unique outcome: war between mages and templars, the Chantry destroyed and all important leaders from Kirkwall dead - Dumar, Elthina, Orsino, Meredith. They were forced to finish the game quickly, so they used a deus ex machina ending: possession. No need to explain, to elaborate, to exemplify. It`s easy to say "well, those were no longer Anders, Meredith, Orsino". While I think BW could have reached the same end with all three completely sane and with no possession. And what an ending could have been... If all three would remain "normal", and Anders/Justice would not character-killed by the tool of the "terrorism" after 9/11, rather he can provoke a revolution with less compromised tools, then only a small minority of players would capable to support the templars. Anders and Justice's right would clear as a fresh mountain spring. You probably wrong about Meredith: Meredith was presented as at least "gray" even in the beginning of the game, she never was a white knight: Kirkwall Templars cruelty was infamous – when Hawke and his/her family choosed their destination, Hawke mentioned, that Kirkwall's more dangerous for a mage, than every other city, and this feeling was strengthen by Anders and Karl (the latter was experience, not just empty words, and proved Meredith's breaking of laws), and probably (for me at least) Samson's position as well. So: while Anders és Orsino were presented as good men, Meredith was at least "gray" at the beginning. It looked as, the writers wants lead the players to the mage side., and BOOM! this changed in a moment: the players disappointed their judgement, felt betrayed, and this forced some of them at the templar side. If Anders would have used a different tool, it does not happen. So, this happened, the player choosed the Templar side. But as I see: the red lyrium issues was planned, so Meredith's fate was a foregone fact, she failed. It would an another disappointment for the player, so, needed a counterpoint, because in this moment Anders's act probably was more acceptable again, and the Templar side became bad side again. This is why they took this seemingly stupid decision about Orsino's fate. They was forced to portray Orsino similar idiot, than Meredith. This was, what suggested the Templar side at the end. And the writers surprised, that despite this, how many people was able to support mages and to spare Anders*. _____ *Why I do conclude that the Templar (Viscount) end was the "canon" end? Because Leliana (or Cassandra?) speak about Hawke's "misterious disappear". But if Hawke exiled from Kirkwall (mage side), then this wasn't a real "disappear", and certainly not "misterious" – I often wondered, why she said such a thing, because I have only one templar end. (And as I heard, Gayder wrote that...)
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 16:25:59 GMT
If all three would remain "normal", and anders/Justice would not character-killed by thetool of the "terrorism" after 9/11, rather he can provoke a revolution with less compromised tools, then only a small minority of players would capable to support the templars. Anders and Justice's right would clear as a fresh mountain spring. You probably wrong about Meredith: Meredith was presented as at least "gray" even in the beginning of the game, she never was a white knight: Kirkwall Templars cruelty was infamous – when Hawke and his/her family choosed their destination, Hawke mentioned, that Kirkwall's more dangerous for a mage, than every other city, and this feeling was strengthen by Anders and Karl (the latter was experience, not just empty words, and proved Meredith's breaking of laws), and probably (for me at least) Samson's position as well. So: while Anders és Orsino were presented as good men, Meredith was at least "gray" at the beginning. It looked as, the writers wants lead the players to the mage side., and BOOM! this changed in a moment: the players disappointed their judgement, felt betrayed, and this forced some of them at the templar side. If Anders would have used a different tool, it does not happen. So, this happened, the player choosed the Templar side. But as I see: the red lyrium issues was planned, so Meredith's fate was a foregone fact, she failed. It would an another disappointment for the player, so, needed a counterpoint, because in this moment Anders's act probably was more acceptable again, and the Templar side became bad side again. This is why they took this seemingly stupid decision about Orsino's fate. This was, what suggested the Templar side at the end. And the writers surprised, that despite this, how many people was able to support mages and to spare Anders. Why I do conclude that the Templar (Viscount) end was the "canon" end? Because Leliana (or Cassandra?) speak about Hawke's "misterious disappear". But if Hawke exiled from Kirkwall (mage side), then this wasn't a real "disappear", and certainly not "misterious" – I often wondered, why she said such a thing, because I have only one templar end. (And as I heard, Gayder wrote that...) (And possibly they wanted one more boss fight, but I'm not sure about it.) I said Meredith was a well-written character, not that she was an innocent one. Think about Loghain in DA:O. He was well developed, even without the lore from "The Stolen Throne". He fears that if Orlais will send an army to Ferelden`s help they will seize the opportunity to conquer it again. So he decides to prevent this, and he becomes little by little, decision by decision a murderer, assassin, slaver, traitor - everything that was Meghren, the Orlesian king of Ferelden. Meredith is on the same downward path, started when her sister became an abomination. Meredith as a character has everything needed to be a convincing and persuading element in the game for the templar cause, IF played well. In the final form of DA2, she wasn`t convincing enough. Why did this mattered to Bioware? My guess (as I posted before) is that BW wanted to force emotional decisions for key plot events, and measured this by collecting data from players. In the case of Loghain, this is probably the reason of why he is the only character who can be subjected to the warden ritual, replacing Alistair. So BW measured how many players have chosen Loghain vs how many stayed with Alistair, and it was overwhelmingly in Alistair`s favor, which is normal. Because while Loghain is a well-written character, his actions are completely despicable when compared to Alistairs. Only if say Alistair would have been morally on a similar level with Loghain it would have been possible to chose Loghain over Alistair. Yes, Alistair is childish and dumber than Loghain, but the later has became a monster. Not to mention Howe. Starting with this, Meredith was quite similar to Loghain, with a similar career: hero to zero. The problem was, as in Loghain case, about her actions. Karl made tranquil for no reason, subordinates like Alrik and Karass, what she does in the Circle against mages who did not do anything wrong. This is the problem. In the end of Act 3 we have to chose between killing every mage from the Circle (who never did anything wrong) and defending them. Remember, the blood mages roaming Kirkwall were apostates outside the Circle. Grace & Co were from Starkhaven. Practically nobody fromthe Circle was directly involved in murderous actions. Because of this, BW needed Anders and Orsino to go wacky. Which is quite cheap in my opinion. And also Meredith. I wonder why Loghain was never seen with a red sword... It could have been differently planned. More grey. For instance, Karl being involved in a plot, Alrik & Karass deleted from the game, and examples through all three acts about abuses from both Circle mages and templars. All started by Meredith`s initial brutality, of course. But it could have offered a more balanced picture, and an argument about an "unstable" Circle. Instead, it was about the slaughter of innocents. Thus the need of crazy Anders, Orsino, Meredith. As for Hawke`s reported "disappearance" linked to the templar/viscount ending, I don`t know. Maybe, but that would have been stupid. Possibly Cullen said that in both cases to Cassandra, because for instance he didn`t wanted to explain why he did not tried to stop Hawke`s escape from Kirkwall after he sided with the mages and killed Meredith. Let`s say Cullen let Hawke to leave the Gallows, but could have arrested her/him later - the game puts Hawke in his mansion after the end credits. By the way, Hawke alone in his mansion after the slaughter in the Gallows, with nothing do do was the saddest moment of the game for me.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 27, 2017 17:23:32 GMT
If all three would remain "normal", and anders/Justice would not character-killed by thetool of the "terrorism" after 9/11, rather he can provoke a revolution with less compromised tools, then only a small minority of players would capable to support the templars. Anders and Justice's right would clear as a fresh mountain spring.
You probably wrong about Meredith: Meredith was presented as at least "gray" even in the beginning of the game, she never was a white knight: Kirkwall Templars cruelty was infamous – when Hawke and his/her family choosed their destination, Hawke mentioned, that Kirkwall's more dangerous for a mage, than every other city, and this feeling was strengthen by Anders and Karl (the latter was experience, not just empty words, and proved Meredith's breaking of laws), and probably (for me at least) Samson's position as well. So: while Anders és Orsino were presented as good men, Meredith was at least "gray" at the beginning.
It looked as, the writers wants lead the players to the mage side., and BOOM! this changed in a moment: the players disappointed their judgement, felt betrayed, and this forced some of them at the templar side. If Anders would have used a different tool, it does not happen. So, this happened, the player choosed the Templar side. But as I see: the red lyrium issues was planned, so Meredith's fate was a foregone fact, she failed. It would an another disappointment for the player, so, needed a counterpoint, because in this moment Anders's act probably was more acceptable again, and the Templar side became bad side again. This is why they took this seemingly stupid decision about Orsino's fate. This was, what suggested the Templar side at the end. And the writers surprised, that despite this, how many people was able to support mages and to spare Anders.
Why I do conclude that the Templar (Viscount) end was the "canon" end? Because Leliana (or Cassandra?) speak about Hawke's "misterious disappear". But if Hawke exiled from Kirkwall (mage side), then this wasn't a real "disappear", and certainly not "misterious" – I often wondered, why she said such a thing, because I have only one templar end. (And as I heard, Gayder wrote that...)
(And possibly they wanted one more boss fight, but I'm not sure about it.) I said Meredith was a well-written character, not that she was an innocent one. Think about Loghain in DA:O. He was well developed, even without the lore from "The Stolen Throne". He fears that if Orlais will send an army to Ferelden`s help they will seize the opportunity to conquer it again. So he decides to prevent this, and he becomes little by little, decision by decision a murderer, assassin, slaver, traitor - everything that was Meghren, the Orlesian king of Ferelden.
Meredith is on the same downward path, started when her sister became an abomination. Meredith as a character has everything needed to be a convincing and persuading element in the game for the templar cause, IF played well.
In the final form of DA2, she wasn`t convincing enough. Why did this mattered to Bioware? My guess (as I posted before) is that BW wanted to force emotional decisions for key plot events, and measured this by collecting data from players. In the case of Loghain, this is probably the reason of why he is the only character who can be subjected to the warden ritual, replacing Alistair. So BW measured how many players have chosen Loghain vs how many stayed with Alistair, and it was overwhelmingly in Alistair`s favor, which is normal. Because while Loghain is a well-written character, his actions are completely despicable when compared to Alistairs. Only if say Alistair would have been morally on a similar level with Loghain it would have been possible to chose Loghain over Alistair. Yes, Alistair is childish and dumber than Loghain, but the later has became a monster. Not to mention Howe.
Starting with this, Meredith was quite similar to Loghain, with a similar career: hero to zero. The problem was, as in Loghain case, about her actions. Karl made tranquil for no reason, subordinates like Alrik and Karass, what she does in the Circle against mages who did not do anything wrong. This is the problem. In the end of Act 3 we have to chose between killing every mage from the Circle (who never did anything wrong) and defending them. Remember, the blood mages roaming Kirkwall were apostates outside the Circle. Grace & Co were from Starkhaven. Practically nobody fromthe Circle was directly involved in murderous actions. Because of this, BW needed Anders and Orsino to go wacky. Which is quite cheap in my opinion. And also Meredith. I wonder why Loghain was never seen with a red sword...
It could have been differently planned. More grey. For instance, Karl being involved in a plot, Alrik & Karass deleted from the game, and examples through all three acts about abuses from both Circle mages and templars. All started by Meredith`s initial brutality, of course. But it could have offered a more balanced picture, and an argument about an "unstable" Circle. Instead, it was about the slaughter of innocents. Thus the need of crazy Anders, Orsino, Meredith.
As for Hawke`s reported "disappearance" linked to the templar/viscount ending, I don`t know. Maybe, but that would have been stupid. Possibly Cullen said that in both cases to Cassandra, because for instance he didn`t wanted to explain why he did not tried to stop Hawke`s escape from Kirkwall after he sided with the mages and killed Meredith. Let`s say Cullen let Hawke to leave the Gallows, but could have arrested her/him later - the game puts Hawke in his mansion after the end credits.
By the way, Hawke alone in his mansion after the slaughter in the Gallows, with nothing do do was the saddest moment of the game for me. Loghain is rather black at the Landsmeet. Later, he can redeem himself, if the Warden spare his life, Meredith don't have this chance. I can say, that Meredith only limitary responsible for her actions, because of her paranoia (but true, probably Loghain also have this excuse). She seems strong and brave, and I think, she is not "malicious" – but she inherently unsuitable her position. Of course, It seems, that she earned the Knight commander rank precisely because of her paranoia. The real responsible is, who know her methods, and still believe, that this acceptable Elthina, and the senior Templars (Cullen for example – but Cullen for similar reasons wasn't able to questionher decisions). After the end battle, imaginable, that Cullen tried to save his own ass, but he wasn't alone who knew, how Hawke and his/her crew "disappeared". In this case Leliana's wording is very sarcastic... Probably Viscount Hawke's reason to leave his/her home: this empty feeling, if s/he lost everything, and feel guilty because s/he supported the Templars. But this not really true in all Hawke's case: if Hawke supported Templars willingly, or can explain him-/herself, that this was only right decision for Kirkwall (or unscrupulous/evil), and still have sister/brother or/and love, s/he don't have any reason to left Kirkwall, so his/her disappear can be called "misterious" – at least as I see. I agree, this game very rough-and-ready, thanks to EA...
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Post by Duke Cameron on Feb 1, 2017 21:47:33 GMT
It is my favorite. Maybe of all time.
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Beregond5
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Post by Beregond5 on Feb 3, 2017 10:32:12 GMT
When DA2 first came out, I heard so many people saying all sorts of things about it, ranging from being boring and repetitive to downright awful and shitty, that it discouraged me from buying it. Then, two years later, I saw it on a Black Friday discount, mulled over it for a while and finally decided to go for it. I knew the story already, since everything had been spoiled in the span of two years, so I figured that, at worst, I'd mourn 7 euros.
Yes, some sections do repeat themselves. The game also presents a bleaker, more cynical side of Thedas and yes, your choices in a lot of quests don't seem to make a difference. Yes, it feels especially rushed at the 3rd Act. And yet Hawke and his companions, their interactions, their reactions and their camaraderie in general makes this game a jewel in my eyes and I certainly regretted that I didn't get it sooner. It's the one game where I love *all* the companions ( even if, in Carver's case, it's more I love to hate him), and the team they make. I consider them as memorable as Shepard's team, in fact.
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Post by eriador117 on Feb 3, 2017 14:39:17 GMT
For years I had suffered from unexplained dizziness/vertigo so computer games of any sort were off the menu for me because of that. Then, after about 5 years going to every department of the hospital, I finally got to see the right specialist and discovered the cause. It wasn't anything to do with the inner ear, which causes most dizziness - mine was Migraine Associated Vertigo - it was caused by the same things that cause migraines in most people - chocolate, citrus fruit, bananas and pineapple, which I hadn't realised before. I'd already cut out chocolate etc. before we saw the specialist. A lot of things can affect it, including the weather, especially thunder and lightning. Strange camera angles in films, bright lights in supermarkets etc. So I didn't think I'd ever be able to play a computer game at all. But the specialist told me to try and do things that I enjoy, try to lead as normal life as possible.
So one day in a sale I saw Dragon Age 2. I liked fantasy, I liked dragons so I thought I'd give it ago. DA2 has a special place in my heart because it was the first game I played where I didn't get vertigo! I did get vertigo with DAO. I've lost count how many times I've played DA2 over those years. I love the characters, I love Hawke, I love the story.
Yes, it has some problems, like the reused caves, but that didn't really bother me that much. I loved that you had a family and could romance one of the other characters, I'd never seen that in a game before.
I got really emotional when Hawke appeared in DAI. DA2 is my favourite game by far.
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Post by Wildfire on Feb 3, 2017 16:05:08 GMT
Yes, it has some problems, like the reused caves, but that didn't really bother me that much. I loved that you had a family and could romance one of the other characters, I'd never seen that in a game before. I got really emotional when Hawke appeared in DAI. DA2 is my favourite game by far. I agree 100%. I mean I've said it before but it makes all that struggle worthwhile when you have your family to think about. It's such a rare thing to have in videogames, a real family of your own. And I'm speaking as someone who isn't much of a family person in real life. But it was impossible not to start caring deeply about mother, Bethany, Carver and even Gamlen. About Hawke's return: No wonder you got emotional - it was such a special moment! It's been a few weeks since that happened for me and I'm still tripping over that. I absolutely adore Hawke, she's the single most important thing which makes DA2 so great, and her return was done so well! I must have been shaking for the rest of the day after Varric introduced her in the battlements. They even let her keep her nature, and my humorous Hawke was priceless on a few occasions. On balance I think that it was the single most impressive moment in any game I've ever played. In fact, one of the most touching moments was during the Here Lies the Abyss quest when Hawke and Varric reminisced about the past outside the war room... It made me want to cry like a baby Those small, even insignificant, moments are so important. Continuity doesn't have to always be about anything big - it is often enough to show that someone cares about what you've done in the past. I really hope that my Hawke will live as happily ever after as possible, considering the mess and destruction which always seems to follow her
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2017 16:02:31 GMT
DA 2 is not my favorite BioWare game, but it is a marked improvement on the DA:O and Awakening. It has a likeable protagonist and good companions, which makes adventuring along the Sword Coast (oh, sorry, the Wound Coast) a rather lively pass-time. I don't really care what's up, so long as we adventure and there are dialogues and interesting situations once in a while.
I am not sure what other folks do not like about it, but the only reason it is not up there for me with Jade Empire and Mass Effect is that it's setting is far too generic fantasy with not enough BioWare's own stuff. I wish they were bolder in that respect. It also is too much like Baldur's Gate 2 so far.
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Wynne
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Post by Wynne on Feb 11, 2017 0:48:43 GMT
The title pretty much says it all. Having played every Bioware game since NWN, I have to conclude that Dragon Age 2 is, for me, the best, the most impressive and the most memorable; one of the only games during which I have wanted to cry my heart out. Especially when I'm Not Calling You a Liar started playing at the end :'( Everyone knows the faults of the game, so I won't waste my time discussing with them. They are what they are. I don't mean to challenge anyone to a debate about DA2. I respect the opinion of everyone, including those who don't think much about the game. And I understand why someone would feel that way But for me - even with the numerous flaws - the unique story, the unforgettable characters, the spectacular script and brilliant voice acting make DA2 one of the top 3 gaming experiences ever, if not the best. I mean, how often does fantasy-RPG:s have such dramatic and yet down-to-earth themes like family and the fear of otherness? How often does fantasy RPGs feature relatives who play a big role in the game and who do not all die at the end? I can't think of many, but maybe I'm just uncivilised. What's more: although bad things happen in the game, the nasty stuff are never gratuitious nor meaningless. The previous is true for all other Bioware games and I appreciate it very much. Hawke always does the best they can to make things better. From the very start, it's personal, and it resonated with me like nothing has ever done before. And the characters... I know everything's probably been said about them already elsewhere, but simply put: they're the best NPCs in any game, ever. What is more, the tale of Hawke was not brushed away in the sequel, either. I simply have to give Bioware massive credits for always taking player choice seriously. I mean, the moment when Hawke showed up, my very own Champion of Kirkwall... I can't even describe that feeling. It almost felt like... vindication for something. Pure bliss. To be honest, I'm not a die-hard Bioware fanboy in general - although I'm always eager to play their games, a majority of their titles have not been special in the literal sense of the word. But what they've done with Hawke is just beyond words - I think that it just goes on to show that when you are not afraid to innovate and try new things while remembering to respect player choice and continuity, you can truly fulfill Bioware's mission of creating unforgettable stories and characters. Dragon Age 2 was something special - and that Hawke's legacy was properly paid respect in DAI serves to solidify the fact that my time with them will stick with me for decades to come. So... What's the point of this thread? Well, I guess I just wanted to invite you all to share your good moments and memorable experiences! A very own thread for us who have irrevocably fallen in love with DA2. Sorry for the incoherence in advance, hopefully you will bear with me. PS. I even changed all my tapestry to Free Marches styles in DAI Just wanted to see that crest again... You know, back in 2012 I would've bitten you. I was going through a rough time in an emotionally abusive relationship, and had just lost my moorings while overseas away from my parents and everything I knew. DA2 just really roiled my emotions at a time when I was looking for a more escapist game, and the lack of polish plus getting used to Origin's annoying flaws really got to me. Now, though, with modern improvements--an HD texture mod I found on the Nexus used with the Large Address Aware patch so that the game uses all my current computer power, some HD reskins of companions, and a number of other mods plus SweetFX's successor Reshade--that in and of itself makes a tremendous difference in immersion. Being in a happier place in my life now, I'm emotionally stable enough that the sadder elements in DA2 don't depress me as much. It's a pretty courageous storyline, and one thing I always would have said is that the characters are really detailed. It is a game with great impact, and that is both its strength and its weakness. Its flaws and its virtues are potent, but it really is unique how well they did despite EA apparently breathing down their necks, considering the super-short time frame.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 11, 2017 7:51:32 GMT
It's a pretty courageous storyline, and one thing I always would have said is that the characters are really detailed. It is a game with great impact, and that is both its strength and its weakness. Its flaws and its virtues are potent, but it really is unique how well they did despite EA apparently breathing down their necks, considering the super-short time frame. Bioware did with DA2 something based on what they wanted for Baldur`s Gate Shadows of Amn, compared to Baldur`s Gate: after an escape, it starts within a city instead of wilderness. Baldur`s Gate and DA:O were both more about wilderness areas than cities. DA2 and BG SoA starts proper in a city (Kirkwall and Athkatla). The main character needs to raise money while learning the rules of the city. We have Templars in Kirkwall and Cowled Wizards in Athkatla. Too many similarities between the two games to be a chance occurrence. More, BG SoA was the first Bioware game for David Gaider. These similarities hit me when I started playing DA2 Act 1 for the first time. Wesley and Bethany/Carter died in DA2`s prologue, like Khalid and Dynaheir in BG2`s prologue. My guess is that Bioware launched a winning RPG formula with DA:O the same way they did a decade before with Baldur`s Gate, and wanted to do a BG2 epic with DA2 - the kind of game which played to Bioware`s strength which is the development of characters through a story about conflicts in a complex society. I think Bioware planned a much bigger DA2, with several plotlines inside Kirkwall cut short (about conflicts between nobles, merchants, raiders) and more outside campaigns like Legacy and MotA. The idea of a main plot developed over 7 years was brilliant, since it offered BW a chance to make credible character changes and new emerging threats. The way these threats (Arishok, Meredith) developed through the game was very good, and I`m sure BW wanted something more complex and subtle. With at least a year more for development, DA2 would have been remembered as a much better BG2 rather than a flawed game compared to DA:O. But EA wanted profit fast, and no epics... This is why Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk left after DA2 launch, and David Gaider did the same recently. Bioware`s RPG`s were about well written characters placed in a complex story, something not achievable in a hurry. If we compare BG2 with Icewind Dale launched about the same time it`s easy to see the difference. I like both games, but BG2 was all about characters, while IWD was only about the story. EA did not care for such "subtleties". Even with it`s development cut in half, and a lot of plot elements abandoned DA2 still has that kind of unique atmosphere BG2 had in Athkatla: a strange city, rules and conflicts to learn, random encounters during night. And the best characters in a BW game. DA:O has realistic characters, not caricature heroes and villains. Loghain starts with good intentions but go down the path of bad choices, Eamon is a scheming noble who knows how childish Cailan is, but fails to be on his side at the critical moment, and has to make amends and compromises to avenge him. Anora is cold and calculating, but she also loved Cailan. All the companions have flaws: Morrigan`s lack of social skills, Wynne`s "lecturing" mood, Oghren`s drunkenness... But DA2 is on a very different level. Both the companions and major NPC`s are evolving and have personal goals spamming years, like Petrice or Trask. We can easily open a thread for every important character from DA2, and discuss them for days. Because they feel and behave like real life ones. We are offered enough clues to understand even unimportant ones like Seamus or Javaris. They are not just "random noise" like the Star Wars stormtroopers discussing new vehicles...
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Post by fylimar on Feb 11, 2017 8:02:42 GMT
The title pretty much says it all. Having played every Bioware game since NWN, I have to conclude that Dragon Age 2 is, for me, the best, the most impressive and the most memorable; one of the only games during which I have wanted to cry my heart out. Especially when I'm Not Calling You a Liar started playing at the end :'( Everyone knows the faults of the game, so I won't waste my time discussing with them. They are what they are. I don't mean to challenge anyone to a debate about DA2. I respect the opinion of everyone, including those who don't think much about the game. And I understand why someone would feel that way But for me - even with the numerous flaws - the unique story, the unforgettable characters, the spectacular script and brilliant voice acting make DA2 one of the top 3 gaming experiences ever, if not the best. I mean, how often does fantasy-RPG:s have such dramatic and yet down-to-earth themes like family and the fear of otherness? How often does fantasy RPGs feature relatives who play a big role in the game and who do not all die at the end? I can't think of many, but maybe I'm just uncivilised. What's more: although bad things happen in the game, the nasty stuff are never gratuitious nor meaningless. The previous is true for all other Bioware games and I appreciate it very much. Hawke always does the best they can to make things better. From the very start, it's personal, and it resonated with me like nothing has ever done before. And the characters... I know everything's probably been said about them already elsewhere, but simply put: they're the best NPCs in any game, ever. What is more, the tale of Hawke was not brushed away in the sequel, either. I simply have to give Bioware massive credits for always taking player choice seriously. I mean, the moment when Hawke showed up, my very own Champion of Kirkwall... I can't even describe that feeling. It almost felt like... vindication for something. Pure bliss. To be honest, I'm not a die-hard Bioware fanboy in general - although I'm always eager to play their games, a majority of their titles have not been special in the literal sense of the word. But what they've done with Hawke is just beyond words - I think that it just goes on to show that when you are not afraid to innovate and try new things while remembering to respect player choice and continuity, you can truly fulfill Bioware's mission of creating unforgettable stories and characters. Dragon Age 2 was something special - and that Hawke's legacy was properly paid respect in DAI serves to solidify the fact that my time with them will stick with me for decades to come. So... What's the point of this thread? Well, I guess I just wanted to invite you all to share your good moments and memorable experiences! A very own thread for us who have irrevocably fallen in love with DA2. Sorry for the incoherence in advance, hopefully you will bear with me. PS. I even changed all my tapestry to Free Marches styles in DAI Just wanted to see that crest again... You know, back in 2012 I would've bitten you. I was going through a rough time in an emotionally abusive relationship, and had just lost my moorings while overseas away from my parents and everything I knew. DA2 just really roiled my emotions at a time when I was looking for a more escapist game, and the lack of polish plus getting used to Origin's annoying flaws really got to me. Now, though, with modern improvements--an HD texture mod I found on the Nexus used with the Large Address Aware patch so that the game uses all my current computer power, some HD reskins of companions, and a number of other mods plus SweetFX's successor Reshade--that in and of itself makes a tremendous difference in immersion. Being in a happier place in my life now, I'm emotionally stable enough that the sadder elements in DA2 don't depress me as much. It's a pretty courageous storyline, and one thing I always would have said is that the characters are really detailed. It is a game with great impact, and that is both its strength and its weakness. Its flaws and its virtues are potent, but it really is unique how well they did despite EA apparently breathing down their necks, considering the super-short time frame. Those textures looks great. May I ask, which texture mode you used?
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Wildfire
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Post by Wildfire on Feb 11, 2017 18:30:40 GMT
It's a pretty courageous storyline, and one thing I always would have said is that the characters are really detailed. It is a game with great impact, and that is both its strength and its weakness. Its flaws and its virtues are potent, but it really is unique how well they did despite EA apparently breathing down their necks, considering the super-short time frame. With at least a year more for development, DA2 would have been remembered as a much better BG2 rather than a flawed game compared to DA:O. But EA wanted profit fast, and no epics... This is why Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk left after DA2 launch, and David Gaider did the same recently. Bioware`s RPG`s were about well written characters placed in a complex story, something not achievable in a hurry. If we compare BG2 with Icewind Dale launched about the same time it`s easy to see the difference. I like both games, but BG2 was all about characters, while IWD was only about the story. EA did not care for such "subtleties". Yeah, can only imagine how brilliant DA2 would have been if they had given it some extra loving care and attention... But even now it is something very special, and not least for the reasons you have laid out, adrianbc. Stupid EA. No wonder it's been called the worst company in the world or something like that Wynne: I know how you feel... DA2 is nothing if not emotional, and it's hard not to get sucked in that emotional rollercoaster. But despite the sad parts, I think it's all worthwhile.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 15:42:11 GMT
I have just finished my first run of DA2, in my attempts to catch up with all the things BioWARE that I’ve missed between RL and playing SWTOR during the last 10 years or so.
BioWARE’s bold move to its own IPs starting with the Jade Empire was one of those stubborn and awesome things that this company does.
I also have to say that for me the middle children of both trilogies turned out to be the loveliest. It’s as if BioWARE’s writers when released from the work of setting building and introducing the player to it, and not feeling the pressure of having to wrap the story up, go towards exploring compelling human and moral stories. I love that.
In the end, Mass Effect Trilogy is that incredible “heart and mind” game for me, and SWTOR is the game that made me respect BioWARE’s writing team and ambition the most, Dragon Age 2 was a wonderful gaming experience. It was never boring, and it made me feel, something that the first installment of the Dragon Age franchise did not deliver.
And, for that, for Anders’ walking the razor’s edge, shredding his soul to ribbons, Varric’s golden heart, and Fenris’ incurable loneliness, I salute it.
DA2 makes me want to see what BioWARE does with DA4 (if it’s going to happen), but it’s not enough to get me to purchase Inquisition.
Conclusion: Not my True Love, but a lover of some import :) I certainly liked it way better than the Origins.
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brad2240
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Post by brad2240 on Feb 15, 2017 17:07:41 GMT
When I first played DA 2 I didn't expect it would be my favorite Dragon Age game. In fact, I was disappointed with it for being so different to Origins. I finished it and didn't go back for months. But it was on my second playthrough that things really clicked for me and I really got into the story and started caring about the companions and appreciating just how good they are. I did that second playthough, then a third, then a fourth all back-to-back. To date, I've completed 4 playthoughs of Origins, slogged through Inquisition twice, but finished DA 2 about 10 times. For me, that's a lot of play time on a game not named "Mass Effect." DA 2 is the one I keep coming back to. I love Hawke, by far my favorite protagonist of the trilogy. I love that Hawke's story is not that of your typical fantasy genre hero. I genuinely care about each of the companions and their personal stories (and I still regret that I can't romance Aveline!). The Arishok is the best villain in the trilogy, IMO. For me personally, DA 2 is the measuring stick for fantasy RPGs.
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Gray Jedi
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Post by Gray Jedi on Feb 20, 2017 3:53:12 GMT
Out of all games in the DA series DA2 is my favorite and that comment will make some people scratch there head i get it the game is flawed. With reused areas a rushed 3rd act most of the game taking place in kirkwall that can get boring but i enjoyed it the most out off all the games despite that.
First would be Hawke i loved that DA2 was not another save the world story but a more small and personal story about Hawke going from a nobody in lothering to the champion of kirkwall. It was nice to see Hawke move up the kirkwall ladder to see him make a name for himself we got to see him get back his family estate and beat the qunari. He also felt the most real and alive for bioware protags.
Second family this also added to Hawkes personal story while i feel they should have given the player a choice on which sibling to save like with Ash/Kaidan. It was nice to see your family involved in the story and develop over the course of the game with certain choices leading to different futures for Beth/Carver.
Third Combat something that some hate while i preferred the faster more responsive combat and i did play DAO/DAA before DA2 while i enjoyed both the DAO and the expansion the combat was on the slow boring side for me.
Few other tidbits
Arishok was a great rival while i don't agree with the qunari beliefs i understood where he was coming from and respected him for that.
Dlc Legacy and MOTA are both good dlcs exiled prince well if you like Sebastian then you will like it yeah that's right i like Sebastian.
To rap up this long post DA2 is a good game for the short time bioware had to work on it and am glad MEA is taking somethings from it like having family members involved in the story and ryder starting out green and building him up over the course of the game like Hawke.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 23, 2017 8:11:47 GMT
Perhaps the most blamed flaw of DA2 is the lack of meaningful decisions. Many DA fans loved to have Godlike powers to change the fate of Thedas. We were able to elect kings in Ferelden and Orzamar (DA:O), the Emperor and Divine (DA:I). In contrast, Hawke seems to be unable to even save her/his family. Some DA:O and DA:I fans are going so far as to call anyone who like DA2 idiots, traitors or aliens (as recently happened here on this forum by a "polite" fan).
If we look at these games in perspective, long after being launched, these arguments about meaningful decisions just disappear. DA:O was the first game in the series, and Bioware enticed us with decisions which warmed our hearts. Then came Awakening, and the first signs of trouble. Our Warden could be magically resurrected for the expansion (if s/he made the Ultimate Sacrifice in DA:O) because Bioware wanted her/him to be a possible protagonist for Awakening. The same for DA2, were freshly resurrected Anders and Leliana behaved as if there was just one possible outcome for DA:O. Every meaningful decision was reversed (Dalish never gained the Brecilian Forest, Mages stayed in the Ferelden Circle) or made pointless (we hear nothing about Orzamar, Alistair is the same idiot no matter if he`s a drunk or a king). Which made any new replay of DA:O (after DA2 came out) quite a sour decision, at least for me. Why should I care who is elected king in Orzamar or Ferelden, if nothing changes really? Why should I care about Dalish or mages in DA:O, if everything will be reversed and buried afterwards?
Bioware learned their lesson with divergent world states from DA:O, and they forced very much a single outcome for DA2, making any Hawke decision instantly meaningless instead of just reversed/disabled in the next game. Because this is the real difference between DA2 and the other two DA games. All in-game decisions are changed afterwards to fit a single world-state in any DA game. Like it was the case with BG2: Khalid & Jaheira, Minsc & Dynaheir were the companion pairs at the start of BG2-SOA even if never recruited or killed in BG1.
For DA:I Bioware was forced to use again the DA:O formula (after much outcry from fans) but already many of the in-game decisions are less than important. For instance, who is Emperor or Divine changes very little in the Epilogues. The rest will be "erased" as usual in DA4. By moving DA4 in the North of Thedas, far from the DA:I events, Bioware wants us to forget or no longer care about the decisions made after much thinking and effort in Inquisition. After DA4 is out, how would any DA fan feel when decides to replay DA:I one more time? I`m not sure that they will feel as well as now...
The way Bioware erases any important former decision in DA universe makes me appreciate DA2 more. Because DA2 is at least honest: what we see is what we get in the end. Not an empty golden box as present...
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talyn82
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Post by talyn82 on Mar 2, 2017 5:29:00 GMT
I just bought DA2 yesterday for the first time ever. Skimming through this thread has made me psyched to play my first playthrough. I just don't know if I should be a warrior, mage, or rogue? I also don't know if I have the chance to customize Hawke will I do it? I think the canon looks for both male and female Hawke are great.
So any tips for a newbie?
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Post by adrianbc on Mar 2, 2017 7:04:03 GMT
Go for a rogue Hawke, and choose the purple dialogue option for the first few dialogues, and then for the most of the game. DA2 has a personality feature for Hawke: s/he will sound differently, and say different things based on her/his personality. In order to "crystallize" a personality trait for Hawke, you need to choose the same option repeatedly in the first few dialogues. The personalities are: Diplomatic/nice (green/blue dialogue options) Sarcastic/joking (purple dialogue options) Aggressive/blunt (red dialogue options) The best and more entertaining option by far is the purple one. A sarcastic Hawke is the most clever and witty, and usually, learns more about others by using dialogue. As for the rogue class, it`s the only one which offers both daggers and bows as weapons (only for Hawke!), and you can switch between them in the middle of a fight. Warriors cannot use any ranged weapons, and mages can only use staffs. The dual wield specializations for a rogue in DA2 are the best in the series. S/he is more like a ninja and samurai combined. Combat in DA2 is very fast. A weapon and shield warrior is the most resilient option. A mage is the most powerful class for Hawke, but it`s boring for me (overpowered). A dual wielding rogue is exciting because s/he is vulnerable but in the same time will soon be able to kill enemies with a single strike. Even some minor bosses. For me, DA2 is a rogue fest.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 2, 2017 12:35:08 GMT
My tips:
Mage Hawke: the story more personal. Rogue/Warrior Hawke: depend on Bethany's position. This can be neutral or more personal, than mage.
I liked my warrior (two-handed, reaver-berserker – fun and crazy: he kills quickly and dies quickly), but prefer mage. For example the elemental-blood-force is fun, this is a true mad destroyer, but a bit defenseless (stone armor [primal] is good for him/her). The spirithealer-force-primal is strong, and also fun – but as I see, all mage spec is fun, but yes, many people think, that the mage Hawke is overpowered. As I see: this overpowered Hawke fit this comic-book story.
diplomatic/helpful Hawke a bit boring, goody person, but has some good moments. sarcastic/charming Hawke can be funny and can be jerk. agressive/direct Hawke a lot of people's favorite
I like sarcastic Hawke, but not pure sarcastic: the diplomatic/aggressive answers helps to make a more nuanced character.
Some companions react better to diplomatic/helpful answers (Bethany, Aveline, Merrill, Anders*) Some companions likes sarcastic/charming (Isabela, Varric, Fenris**) And someone of them bear the aggressive/direct reaction (Carver***, Fenris**) I don't know about Sebastian, but sometimes I saw: he also appreciates the joke.
Of course, not always, depend on the situation, because the purple answer can be jerk, and the red sometimes also be rude. *Anders likes the kind answers, but more fun if Hawke use purple, because bit interrupts his seriousness/concerns, and bring back his sense of humor for a while. ** Fenris likes Hawke bad jokes, this is probably weird, because he, at first sight, seems grumpy (and he is grumpy), but he has a sense of humor (in fact I think, he really good on this). And sometimes he react good on red answers. *** With Carver, Hawke can build friendship, but this is hard enough. So many people hates him, because if Hawke try to be kind to him, he only rarely returns the kindness (frustration, because seems, Carver hates Hawke – this is not right!). So: this is a mistake! (as I see... ofc) Carver is a defiant boy, and this have more sense, if Hawke is rather a jerk/impatient toward him.
Important: you need to choose a path (friendship/rivalry) with every companion as soon as possible.
These are my experiences so: totally subjective, use cautiously!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 15:04:37 GMT
I just bought DA2 yesterday for the first time ever. Skimming through this thread has made me psyched to play my first playthrough. I just don't know if I should be a warrior, mage, or rogue? I also don't know if I have the chance to customize Hawke will I do it? I think the canon looks for both male and female Hawke are great. So any tips for a newbie? I went with a melee rogue. It's crazy fun to play, and i liked cast mages and cast warriors far more than I liked the cast rogues (plus, they are short a rogue unless you bought a DLC). But I liked Carver, so that's one reason to go Mage....game's really bias against Carver. In terms of appearance, I loved my own male Hawke, but females never looked that great. If you customize Hawke, you also get variants on your family looks, bro, sis and mom. So... I prefer to customize them as the only way to get Asian characters in the game. Also, you can always change Hawke's look in the Black Emporium, but family remains the same as in the start.
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talyn82
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Post by talyn82 on Mar 2, 2017 16:59:39 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions. I am glad to hear one could customize their characters looks, and that it would change your family's look. I played a little bit yesterday as a mage, and my in game sister, Bethany I think? Died. I was like oh no! I tried playing on, but my in game bro is a real bummer. So I'd most likely restart as a two handed warrior, maybe it will save Bethany, and let Carver die, lol. But if I enjoy the game like I did DAO, and DAI, I will give all three classes a chance like in DAO. But before I play a serious playthrough, I have to finish my human male Amell playthrough in DAO, I am almost done. Then I could import my save data.
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Deleted
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guest@proboards.com
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Mar 28, 2024 10:37:26 GMT
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Mar 28, 2024 10:37:26 GMT
January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 17:12:59 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions. I am glad to hear one could customize their characters looks, and that it would change your family's look. I played a little bit yesterday as a mage, and my in game sister, Bethany I think? Died. I was like oh no! I tried playing on, but my in game bro is a real bummer. So I'd most likely restart as a two handed warrior, maybe it will save Bethany, and let Carver die, lol. But if I enjoy the game like I did DAO, and DAI, I will give all three classes a chance like in DAO. But before I play a serious playthrough, I have to finish my human male Amell playthrough in DAO, I am almost done. Then I could import my save data. Game is biased to Bethany. Both warrior and rogue will receive her. I suggest trying both the rogue and the warrior in the first sequence, to see which class speaks to you, because they let you see a lot of spells as a class preview. 2H warrior will duplicate a male elf cast member and melee rogue will duplicate a female human cast member. Both of those cast members have romances for either gender PC. Hope this helps w/o spoiling.
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talyn82
N5
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Talyn82
PSN: Talyn82
Posts: 3,674 Likes: 10,183
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talyn82
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Feb 15, 2017 19:01:44 GMT
February 2017
talyn82
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Talyn82
Talyn82
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Post by talyn82 on Mar 2, 2017 17:26:10 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions. I am glad to hear one could customize their characters looks, and that it would change your family's look. I played a little bit yesterday as a mage, and my in game sister, Bethany I think? Died. I was like oh no! I tried playing on, but my in game bro is a real bummer. So I'd most likely restart as a two handed warrior, maybe it will save Bethany, and let Carver die, lol. But if I enjoy the game like I did DAO, and DAI, I will give all three classes a chance like in DAO. But before I play a serious playthrough, I have to finish my human male Amell playthrough in DAO, I am almost done. Then I could import my save data. Game is biased to Bethany. Both warrior and rogue will receive her. I suggest trying both the rogue and the warrior in the first sequence, to see which class speaks to you, because they let you see a lot of spells as a class preview. 2H warrior will duplicate a male elf cast member and melee rogue will duplicate a female human cast member. Both of those cast members have romances for either gender PC. Hope this helps w/o spoiling. Yes, this was of great help. Thanks!
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