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Post by vertigomez on Jan 27, 2017 23:43:52 GMT
I wouldn't want the extent of Mae's physical transition to be part of a quest, or up to the player. That just makes it seem like her body, and her comfort in her own skin, is secondary to what the player wants and that just... doesn't sit right with me at all. One of the devs said that they wouldn't want Mae's romance to be "the trans romance" as if that was her defining feature - just like they wouldn't want to reduce other characters to one aspect of themselves. That same dev said that the romance arcs are built more along the lines of how Garrus and Shep are the comfortable friends-turned-lovers romance, or how Cullen has more of a chivalric, "classic" romance. Mae's a widow and something of a career woman, so maybe that could be built into it? So while Mae being trans is part of her character and I don't doubt that it will come up (especially given her relationship with her very supportive, sadly deceased father), I don't think I'd want her whole romance quest to center on it and I'm definitely uncomfortable with the idea of two separate body models. That really just seems to put too much power in the hands of players, and takes away some of her agency. And I definitely agree that a transgender voice actress should voice her. It is so hard for such actresses to find work in the industry... I think it's a shame that trans actors are often overlooked even when it comes to playing characters who reflect who they are and the life they've lived. So yeah, that's my two cents. None of this would affect my decision to romance her or not. It all depends on how she's written. Speaking of, I remember Gaider posted this on twitter as an "instructional video for writing Maevaris":  |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 0:13:38 GMT
*Believe it or not, there are plenty of real life trans people who are quite happy to not completely transition. So a potential quest about whether or not Maevaris does wouldn't be about the "right" or "wrong" choice, but two equally valid paths. The kiss of death for that idea is, well, the idea of the PC somehow determining that for Maevaris. |
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 28, 2017 4:02:00 GMT
I wouldn't want the extent of Mae's physical transition to be part of a quest, or up to the player. That just makes it seem like her body, and her comfort in her own skin, is secondary to what the player wants and that just... doesn't sit right with me at all. One of the devs said that they wouldn't want Mae's romance to be "the trans romance" as if that was her defining feature - just like they wouldn't want to reduce other characters to one aspect of themselves. That same dev said that the romance arcs are built more along the lines of how Garrus and Shep are the comfortable friends-turned-lovers romance, or how Cullen has more of a chivalric, "classic" romance. Mae's a widow and something of a career woman, so maybe that could be built into it? So while Mae being trans is part of her character and I don't doubt that it will come up (especially given her relationship with her very supportive, sadly deceased father), I don't think I'd want her whole romance quest to center on it and I'm definitely uncomfortable with the idea of two separate body models. That really just seems to put too much power in the hands of players, and takes away some of her agency. And I definitely agree that a transgender voice actress should voice her. It is so hard for such actresses to find work in the industry... I think it's a shame that trans actors are often overlooked even when it comes to playing characters who reflect who they are and the life they've lived. So yeah, that's my two cents. None of this would affect my decision to romance her or not. It all depends on how she's written. Speaking of, I remember Gaider posted this on twitter as an "instructional video for writing Maevaris": A fair point. Suppose Mae transitions on her own during the story? The only reason I bring it up is that it would allow the writers to explore the before and after. Should a potential romance start before, if they want to pursue her? Should it have less content if you start after? You might be thinking, "Why are you punishing the player if that's not their preference?" Actually, I'm curious how the writers would handle it, getting into Maevaris' head; "Does s/he really love me, or is it conditional on my body?"
To be fair, pretty much 90% of every companions' personal quests have the player dictating the course of their lives one way or the other. These quests offer a window into the character's history and core beliefs and the chance for divergent development. The best of them don't change the character's attitudes completely, but merely shift the levels of what was already there. There's never going to be a perfect answer for how much influence the player should have; should Alistair and/or Leliana be softened or hardened? Should Isabella come back with the Tome of Koslun or not? Should Cullen go cold turkey or stay on lyrium? Is Cole better a Spirit or growing as a human? If the writers did away with personal quests altogether, how many players would object that they could not sway the character from a path they disagreed with, like whether or not Bull goes Tal-Vashoth ? |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 4:04:54 GMT
A fair point. Suppose Mae transitions on her own during the story? The only reason I bring it up is that it would allow the writers to explore the before and after. Should a potential romance start before, if they want to pursue her? Should it have less content if you start after? You might be thinking, "Why are you punishing the player if that's not their preference?" Actually, I'm curious how the writers would handle it, getting into Maevaris' head; "Does s/he really love me, or is it conditional on my body?" I think the solution here is a simple one: don't allow the PC any opportunity to express any transphobia while romancing Maevaris (or ideally at all, but that's a bit tangential). My ideal solution here would be to have her start out already having transitioned, and possibly never bring it up at all. |
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 4:11:19 GMT
A pet theory of mine: In interviews, Patrick Weekes dropped the idea of getting an actual transgender actor to voice Maevaris Tilani. It could be that Jien Garson is Jamie Clayton's dry run for Mae. Also, Krem balked at the idea of using magic to fully transition, but Maevaris likely doesn't have such compunctions. Do you think this would be part of her Personal or Romance Quest*? Would it affect your decision to romance her or not? Would such a story line be too "After School Special", like some consider Dorian's? Would the budget even allow for Mae having two different models? Getting a transgender voice actor to voice Mae would be pretty cool, and having Mae as a romance option would be neat. I'm in agreement with vertigomez about not wanting any potential transition to be up to the player, though. I have no problem Calpernia returning as a potential ally or antagonist, but she just isn't interesting enough for me to be a Companion. If Cal and Mae were both Party Members, that's two white female Tevinter mages. That leaves only one slot for an Elven Mage, a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas, a Rivani Seer, a Mortalitasi, an Avaar Shaman, a Titan touched Dwarf, a new kind of Spirit and/or Demon... Just not enough  . Plus, I see no reason one of these new types of characters couldn't also be a "radical ex-slave mage revolutionary". I'd welcome more diversity for a hypothetical cast, both in terms of PoC and non-Andrastians. Inquisition was pretty Andrastian-heavy given the advisers, companions, and even minor characters, and I'd welcome a change from that. |
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 28, 2017 4:23:08 GMT
A fair point. Suppose Mae transitions on her own during the story? The only reason I bring it up is that it would allow the writers to explore the before and after. Should a potential romance start before, if they want to pursue her? Should it have less content if you start after? You might be thinking, "Why are you punishing the player if that's not their preference?" Actually, I'm curious how the writers would handle it, getting into Maevaris' head; "Does s/he really love me, or is it conditional on my body?" I think the solution here is a simple one: don't allow the PC any opportunity to express any transphobia while romancing Maevaris (or ideally at all, but that's a bit tangential). My ideal solution here would be to have her start out already having transitioned, and possibly never bring it up at all. Wait a minute... if Maevaris has already transitioned and never brings it up, is she truly representing transgender people? Wouldn't that be kind of like Anders' "bi erasure" failure to mention Karl to a female Hawke? |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 4:25:47 GMT
I think the solution here is a simple one: don't allow the PC any opportunity to express any transphobia while romancing Maevaris (or ideally at all, but that's a bit tangential). My ideal solution here would be to have her start out already having transitioned, and possibly never bring it up at all. Wait a minute... if Maevaris has already transitioned and never brings it up, is she truly representing transgender people? Wouldn't that be kind of like Anders' "bi erasure" failure to mention Karl to a female Hawke? Hmmm. Maybe it can be brought up in passing. Not actually a factor in the romance, and not necessarily with an in-depth Q&A session as with Krem, but as part of an overview of her background. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2017 4:48:45 GMT
Suppose Mae transitions on her own during the story? The only reason I bring it up is that it would allow the writers to explore the before and after. Should a potential romance start before, if they want to pursue her? Should it have less content if you start after? You might be thinking, "Why are you punishing the player if that's not their preference?" Actually, I'm curious how the writers would handle it, getting into Maevaris' head; "Does s/he really love me, or is it conditional on my body?" I don't know how old Mae is, but I feel like she's probably had the time, the means, and the support structure (her dad, her husband, her friends) to change her body if she's not comfortable with it? Or she's decided she's comfortable as she is. I cannot really see this popping up in the middle of the story. Nyeh. Challenging someone's philosophy - as with Bull, or hardening Leliana or Alistair - is a little different from trying to change how they feel about their body, or suggesting it should look a different way... I would rather Mae's personal quest be centered on her work with the Lucerni or something. Or her history with Thorold. I'd like to challenge her on slavery or mage supremacy or any number of things where "nudging" someone in a new direction isn't grossly offensive. There are so many possibilities with her as a character that hyper-focusing on her physical transition in the midst of a Qunari war/elven uprising just seems to sort of undervalue the writing. Not that I think that's what you're trying to do. I'd just rather question her about classism than anything else. I think the solution here is a simple one: don't allow the PC any opportunity to express any transphobia while romancing Maevaris (or ideally at all, but that's a bit tangential). My ideal solution here would be to have her start out already having transitioned, and possibly never bring it up at all. I'm gonna disagree on it never being brought up, if only because it might be important to her. Otherwise it just seems like sweeping it under the rug... like it's something to be ashamed of? I don't know. It doesn't quite sit right with me. But it all depends on how Mae is written. Her being trans isn't a secret in Tevinter, at least. She came out when she was fifteen, however long ago that was. |
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 28, 2017 5:03:22 GMT
Wait a minute... if Maevaris has already transitioned and never brings it up, is she truly representing transgender people? Wouldn't that be kind of like Anders' "bi erasure" failure to mention Karl to a female Hawke? Hmmm. Maybe it can be brought up in passing. Not actually a factor in the romance, and not necessarily with an in-depth Q&A session as with Krem, but as part of an overview of her background. Ehhh sorry, I'm not convinced. If you take this argument to it's logical extreme, there's no narrative reason Mae couldn't have been born completely female. Look, I certainly agree that above all else, Maevaris Tilani should be a confident, intelligent, sassy, and possibly ruthless Magister who desperately wants to save her homeland from corruption who simply happens to be a transgender woman. But to downplay what for many trans people is an extremely difficult, lifelong struggle that affects every aspect of their character to just a throwaway line or two, would not do the character justice in my opinion.
So rather than dance around the issue anymore, I'll ask : is all this because maybe you do want to try romancing Mae post op?
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 5:09:06 GMT
Hmmm. Maybe it can be brought up in passing. Not actually a factor in the romance, and not necessarily with an in-depth Q&A session as with Krem, but as part of an overview of her background. Ehhh sorry, I'm not convinced. If you take this argument to it's logical extreme, there's no narrative reason Mae couldn't have been born completely female. Look, I certainly agree that above all else, Maevaris Tilani should be a confident, intelligent, sassy, and possibly ruthless Magister who desperately wants to save her homeland from corruption who simply happens to be a transgender woman. But to downplay what for many trans people is an extremely difficult, lifelong struggle that affects every aspect of their character to just a throwaway line or two, would not do the character justice in my opinion.
So rather than dance around the issue anymore, I'll ask : is all this because maybe you do want to try romancing Mae post op?
I am transgender. I can work with either op status, but I found Krem's magical qualms to be retrograde and obnoxious, and I don't think that Maevaris having similar ones would be of service to anyone. |
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 28, 2017 5:35:23 GMT
Suppose Mae transitions on her own during the story? The only reason I bring it up is that it would allow the writers to explore the before and after. Should a potential romance start before, if they want to pursue her? Should it have less content if you start after? You might be thinking, "Why are you punishing the player if that's not their preference?" Actually, I'm curious how the writers would handle it, getting into Maevaris' head; "Does s/he really love me, or is it conditional on my body?" I don't know how old Mae is, but I feel like she's probably had the time, the means, and the support structure (her dad, her husband, her friends) to change her body if she's not comfortable with it? Or she's decided she's comfortable as she is. I cannot really see this popping up in the middle of the story. Nyeh. Challenging someone's philosophy - as with Bull, or hardening Leliana or Alistair - is a little different from trying to change how they feel about their body, or suggesting it should look a different way... I would rather Mae's personal quest be centered on her work with the Lucerni or something. Or her history with Thorold. I'd like to challenge her on slavery or mage supremacy or any number of things where "nudging" someone in a new direction isn't grossly offensive. There are so many possibilities with her as a character that hyper-focusing on her physical transition in the midst of a Qunari war/elven uprising just seems to sort of undervalue the writing. Not that I think that's what you're trying to do. I'd just rather question her about classism than anything else. I think the solution here is a simple one: don't allow the PC any opportunity to express any transphobia while romancing Maevaris (or ideally at all, but that's a bit tangential). My ideal solution here would be to have her start out already having transitioned, and possibly never bring it up at all. I'm gonna disagree on it never being brought up, if only because it might be important to her. Otherwise it just seems like sweeping it under the rug... like it's something to be ashamed of? I don't know. It doesn't quite sit right with me. But it all depends on how Mae is written. Her being trans isn't a secret in Tevinter, at least. She came out when she was fifteen, however long ago that was. -snip-
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 28, 2017 5:37:46 GMT
Ehhh sorry, I'm not convinced. If you take this argument to it's logical extreme, there's no narrative reason Mae couldn't have been born completely female. Look, I certainly agree that above all else, Maevaris Tilani should be a confident, intelligent, sassy, and possibly ruthless Magister who desperately wants to save her homeland from corruption who simply happens to be a transgender woman. But to downplay what for many trans people is an extremely difficult, lifelong struggle that affects every aspect of their character to just a throwaway line or two, would not do the character justice in my opinion.
So rather than dance around the issue anymore, I'll ask : is all this because maybe you do want to try romancing Mae post op?
I am transgender. I can work with either op status, but I found Krem's magical qualms to be retrograde and obnoxious, and I don't think that Maevaris having similar ones would be of service to anyone. Ummm...
I had no idea. Sorry...
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 5:45:39 GMT
I am transgender. I can work with either op status, but I found Krem's magical qualms to be retrograde and obnoxious, and I don't think that Maevaris having similar ones would be of service to anyone. Ummm...
I had no idea. Sorry...
It's all right. To be honest, I'm not too worried about Maevaris; I think Krem was a useful test bed. I'm more interested in romancing Calpernia anyway. |
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Post by Sifr on Jan 28, 2017 9:41:39 GMT
Somewhat tangentially related to the current topic;
If the Fade reflects the mind of the person dreaming, could a trans individual chose to appear as their correct gender identity, rather than their biological sex?
That being said, Mae's Fade-Self from "Until We Sleep" didn't appear any different from how she normally looks. The only time she changed her appearance was to enact the odd costume switch.
But it did get me thinking whether it was possible, or more broadly, whether or not one's own mental image of themselves could be reflected within the Fade? For instance, would the Inquisitor still occasionally dream of them themselves as having both their missing arm and the Anchor back, despite losing them during the events of Trespasser?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 28, 2017 11:38:59 GMT
May be the way to introduce Maevaris as transgender would be to show the hostility towards her from other Magisters for living openly, which we have been told by WoT2 is a definite thing in Tevinter. I imagine they would be just as outraged if Maevaris fully transitioned but whether she had or not that could be the lead in. So then we get to ask why there is this attitude and then perhaps that would be the opportunity for Maevaris to explain.
I certainly would want something other than what we had for Krem, when it wasn't an issue for me until suddenly it is flagged up as a possible dialogue and left me wondering whether I ought to ask or not, as it seemed a bit crass to do so and yet may be I was missing some important biographical detail if I didn't. In the end I opted not to ask in front of the other Chargers but when the dialogue flag came up again later when we were alone, I assumed that the writers definitely wanted me to ask, so I did.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2017 16:15:47 GMT
Somewhat tangentially related to the current topic; If the Fade reflects the mind of the person dreaming, could a trans individual chose to appear as their correct gender identity, rather than their biological sex? That being said, Mae's Fade-Self from "Until We Sleep" didn't appear any different from how she normally looks. The only time she changed her appearance was to enact the odd costume switch. But it did get me thinking whether it was possible, or more broadly, whether or not one's own mental image of themselves could be reflected within the Fade? For instance, would the Inquisitor still occasionally dream of them themselves as having both their missing arm and the Anchor back, despite losing them during the events of Trespasser? Makes sense to me. Reminds me of that scene in Birthday, where Cordelia's wandering around in dreamland and Skip tells her that a person's astral body is usually an idealized version of themselves. And then sees her sweat pants and messy hair. "Pretty confident, ain't ya?" May be the way to introduce Maevaris as transgender would be to show the hostility towards her from other Magisters for living openly, which we have been told by WoT2 is a definite thing in Tevinter. I imagine they would be just as outraged if Maevaris fully transitioned but whether she had or not that could be the lead in. So then we get to ask why there is this attitude and then perhaps that would be the opportunity for Maevaris to explain. I certainly would want something other than what we had for Krem, when it wasn't an issue for me until suddenly it is flagged up as a possible dialogue and left me wondering whether I ought to ask or not, as it seemed a bit crass to do so and yet may be I was missing some important biographical detail if I didn't. In the end I opted not to ask in front of the other Chargers but when the dialogue flag came up again later when we were alone, I assumed that the writers definitely wanted me to ask, so I did. I think this might be a good idea. Definitely something other than what happened with Krem - the only dialogue option that didn't make me cringe was the one where you ask him how long he's known. That nice little bit about his father and the shaving mirror was very touching. But yeah. Their heart was in the right place, but playing twenty (super personal, invasive and uncalled for >___>) questions was just awkward. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2017 16:17:36 GMT
So, are you hoping the PC starts at the bottom of society or somewhere near the top? I think either one could be juicy, even though I'm pretty sick of noble origins. Tevinter is probably the one instance in which it'll be different enough to be exciting.
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 28, 2017 17:31:38 GMT
So, are you hoping the PC starts at the bottom of society or somewhere near the top? I think either one could be juicy, even though I'm pretty sick of noble origins. Tevinter is probably the one instance in which it'll be different enough to be exciting. I'm still hoping both are options. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2017 17:38:07 GMT
So, are you hoping the PC starts at the bottom of society or somewhere near the top? I think either one could be juicy, even though I'm pretty sick of noble origins. Tevinter is probably the one instance in which it'll be different enough to be exciting. I'm still hoping both are options. Oh, me too. I have a vague notion of an Altus human (at the top), an Ambassadoria dwarf (in the middle), and an elven/Vashoth slave (at the bottom), but who knows? That's not even touching the Laetan/Soporati classes or a protagonist shipped in from somewhere else. |
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 18:08:34 GMT
Ummm...
I had no idea. Sorry...
It's all right. To be honest, I'm not too worried about Maevaris; I think Krem was a useful test bed. I'm more interested in romancing Calpernia anyway. What are you hoping for in a romance with Calpernia, Xil? Is there a particular type of Tevinter protagonist you would aim for with such a romance? |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 18:29:51 GMT
It's all right. To be honest, I'm not too worried about Maevaris; I think Krem was a useful test bed. I'm more interested in romancing Calpernia anyway. What are you hoping for in a romance with Calpernia, Xil? Is there a particular type of Tevinter protagonist you would aim for with such a romance? Ambitious elven ex-slave mage. TOR's Sith Inquisitor is my favorite RPG protagonist ever, and I'd really like to play someone similar in DA. |
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 18:32:45 GMT
What are you hoping for in a romance with Calpernia, Xil? Is there a particular type of Tevinter protagonist you would aim for with such a romance? Ambitious elven ex-slave mage. TOR's Sith Inquisitor is my favorite RPG protagonist ever, and I'd really like to play someone similar in DA. Regarding your character, would she follow the Old Gods? |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 19:42:03 GMT
Ambitious elven ex-slave mage. TOR's Sith Inquisitor is my favorite RPG protagonist ever, and I'd really like to play someone similar in DA. Regarding your character, would she follow the Old Gods? We'll see what comes of it, but it'd definitely be interesting. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2017 19:54:16 GMT
Art post! Calpernia- Varania- |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 28, 2017 22:44:11 GMT
Would you want to be someone who was born a slave, so never knew anything different, or had been captured by slave hunters from outside Tevinter and thus had a cultural identity that you could remember? Obviously if the latter I presume you would have to come from down south because we are already familiar with the cultures down there, so would not need to be told a culture you already know, although of course they would still have to do that for new players.
I have the idea that I quite like a sub-plot of trying to find your family, unless of course they sold you into slavery in the first place, which also happens in Tevinter. May be just a single family member, like a sibling who was captured/sold at the same time as you but to different people.
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. Plus, I see no reason one of these new types of characters couldn't also be a "radical ex-slave mage revolutionary". 
