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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2017 23:41:58 GMT
Would you want to be someone who was born a slave, so never knew anything different, or had been captured by slave hunters from outside Tevinter and thus had a cultural identity that you could remember? Obviously if the latter I presume you would have to come from down south because we are already familiar with the cultures down there, so would not need to be told a culture you already know, although of course they would still have to do that for new players. I have the idea that I quite like a sub-plot of trying to find your family, unless of course they sold you into slavery in the first place, which also happens in Tevinter. May be just a single family member, like a sibling who was captured/sold at the same time as you but to different people. It would be kind of neat if you were an elf who was captured by the Tevinter slavers in the alienage in DAO. I always wondered why my Tabris was moseying around Ferelden after the Blight when she should have been rescuing her kin! Buuut generally speaking I'd rather be a native of the North - Tevinter, Seheron, or Par Vollen. I don't mind having dialogue options where you ask things your character should already know. If you're a new player (or just curious), you take advantage of them. I ignore most of the "obvious" questions in DAO, like my Brosca asking how Leske got to be casteless, or any Warden asking what a templar is, etc. |
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 0:07:38 GMT
Would you want to be someone who was born a slave, so never knew anything different, or had been captured by slave hunters from outside Tevinter and thus had a cultural identity that you could remember? Obviously if the latter I presume you would have to come from down south because we are already familiar with the cultures down there, so would not need to be told a culture you already know, although of course they would still have to do that for new players. I have the idea that I quite like a sub-plot of trying to find your family, unless of course they sold you into slavery in the first place, which also happens in Tevinter. May be just a single family member, like a sibling who was captured/sold at the same time as you but to different people. It would be kind of neat if you were an elf who was captured by the Tevinter slavers in the alienage in DAO. I always wondered why my Tabris was moseying around Ferelden after the Blight when she should have been rescuing her kin! Given the severity of the threat posed by the Fifth Blight and the amount of time that's elapsed once the crisis concludes, I don't think the elven Hero of Ferelden could have done much to save them (it seemed to have been going on for some time, after all). I like to headcanon that Clan Lavellan rescued some of them, including members of the Surana family. There's a long, elaborate story in my mind involving my Surana Warden's mother joining the Dalish with some of the other Denerim elves (with others being taken to Kirkwall) and encountering her infant granddaughter in Keeper Lanaya's clan. Buuut generally speaking I'd rather be a native of the North - Tevinter, Seheron, or Par Vollen. For a new character in a game set in the Imperium, I'd go with being from Tevinter. Perhaps a Venatori background, since Calpernia was freeing slaves. Maybe we'll meet Feynriel, too. I don't mind having dialogue options where you ask things your character should already know. If you're a new player (or just curious), you take advantage of them. I ignore most of the "obvious" questions in DAO, like my Brosca asking how Leske got to be casteless, or any Warden asking what a templar is, etc. I'd prefer questions providing clarity (and answers) to be a little less obvious, so that it's not as though you're some alien from another planet who doesn't know the basics of your own society. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 5:46:04 GMT
Oh, I know there were other things going on at the time, it's just that the severity of what was happening in the alienage seems like it's downplayed much of the time. Meanwhile I was horrified, and as soon as this Blight business was over with, I wanted to go infiltrate Tevinter. Or hit up Isabela and attack some slaver ships, or something. Incredibly reckless and unlikely to succeed, sure, but that's the sort of person my CE was.
I would like to see Feynriel again. I've always wondered - and worried about - what became of him when he left. If he was corrupted by the system, or what kind of new knowledge he learned...
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 7:32:27 GMT
Oh, I know there were other things going on at the time, it's just that the severity of what was happening in the alienage seems like it's downplayed much of the time. Meanwhile I was horrified, and as soon as this Blight business was over with, I wanted to go infiltrate Tevinter. Or hit up Isabela and attack some slaver ships, or something. Incredibly reckless and unlikely to succeed, sure, but that's the sort of person my CE was. I think the problems faced by the alienage elves get downplayed quite a bit, and the purges are pretty horrific; consider how an orphanage was wiped out during the last purge that took place in Denerim, or what happened to the denizens of Halamshiral. I imagine there are a slew of problems faced by the impoverished and downtrodden elves of the Imperium, particularly if Varania's claims about freedom in the Imperium is any indication. I would like to see Feynriel again. I've always wondered - and worried about - what became of him when he left. If he was corrupted by the system, or what kind of new knowledge he learned... I would hope Feynriel isn't corrupted by living in Tevinter. Seeing Feynriel not turn into another casualty of the system would be nice (especially since Hawke has no shortage of failures). |
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Post by Sifr on Jan 29, 2017 8:33:24 GMT
Ambitious elven ex-slave mage. TOR's Sith Inquisitor is my favorite RPG protagonist ever, and I'd really like to play someone similar in DA. Second that, the Sith Inquisitor has to be my favourite class in TOR. The story of an ex-slave who eventually rises to join the elite group who run the Empire, would work just as well transplanted into Tevinter. Wouldn't even care in the slightest if Bioware ripped themselves off in this way, because it was such a fun storyline to play. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 29, 2017 11:44:30 GMT
I'm wondering whether the Lucerni's top-down method of reform versus Calpernia's bottom-up, revolutionary tactics are more likely to be successful when it comes to changing Tevinter. Actually, I wonder whether their goals intercede much at all, given that Dorian's main beef seems to be with corruption and blood magic, whereas Calpernia seems to want slaves (and other lower class people) to be given the opportunity to be their "best" selves. To reach their full potential. She doesn't seem especially fussed about blood magic, and even seems to encourage it in pursuit of a worthy cause. "When a person's life was spent, it meant something--it bought something." I think both methods need to be in play if there is to be hope of real, lasting change. Tevinter has put down slave revolts before, so Calpernia isn't going to win with that alone. The other half of it is up to the Lucerni. I just want to free all the slaves of all races, so I can then point to them and say to Solas "Okay so I did it, just like you asked (of Dorian), so are you still going to kill them all?" I don't know that that would sway him. They're still mostly a bunch of non-magical people. Assuming Calpernia does indeed show up again (and isn't simply a red herring), I guess it'll depend on what Dorian and Maevaris hope to accomplish? I'm not really clear on what they want to do, only that Dorian is proud of his history and heritage, disgusted with the Venatori, and is appalled at the depths some people (Halward, Alexius) are willing to sink to in pursuit of their goals. I'm sure his time in the South (especially with a friendly or romanced Inquisitor) has introduced him to new ideas about slavery, but Mae's stance isn't entirely clear. At one point she tells Isabela, "everyone has slaves in Tevinter, darling" but her blank facial expression could mean anything from "deal with it" to "I don't like it, either." I hope that it's more like Kirkwall, only... huge and pretty because of Frostbite. No tiny little market, thanks. I thought that Mae's response, and her facial expression, was more about Isabela than her views on slavery. Here is Isabela, coming into her (Mae's) homeland, criticizing it, while at the same time seeking her help. That is rude. [edit] Also, in her Fade sequence, she is surrounded by scantily clad manly servants. It's not known whether they're slaves, but they're there. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 29, 2017 12:06:02 GMT
There are too many posts on the Maevaris issue for me to quote, so I'll just post my thoughts.
I want Mae in the game and I do want her as a romance option. However, I don't want her transgender status to be the bulk of her personal arc. I don't think it should be ignored or hidden, but neither do I think it should be the main feature. As Gomez said, I don't want her to be "the trans romance." I just want it so be about Maevaris.
Also, I think a far more appropriate romance arc would be focusing on her late husband, who she seemed crazy about and was still mourning his loss during the comics. I do think it can be done in a nice, respectful way, allowing her to find love again, while still acknowledging that she will always have Thorold in her heart, even as she makes room for someone else. For this reason, I've thought that it would be interesting if it were to be a bit more drawn out, as she struggles with these conflicting emotions and then makes a decision later on in the game.
As for her transition, I've gotten the impression that she is a peer of Varric's and that she is older than Dorian (she seems to have the attitude of a big sister toward him), so that would put her in her 40s, or nearing 40. She would be the similar type of more mature woman as we had with Cassandra. In the comics, which take place in 9:40, we see that she has not fully transitioned because she has no breasts. As was previously mentioned, she has wealth, she has magic and likely a positive view of magic, so I'd think that if she were going to have done it she might have long ago. Maybe she doesn't want to? Maybe there are untold dangers to using magic in this way that she doesn't want to risk? Who knows, really? We haven't seen magic used for that sort of transformation in the game before. I think having that be a part of the game really puts too much of a focus on that issue, and again there is that danger of that completely overtaking her character, which would be very unfortunate.
As far as the VA is concerned, I want her to sound how Bioware thinks she should sound, whether that is having a male, female, or trans VA. If they audition a trans VA, like the way she sounds, and cast her, then that's GREAT. If not, I'm not going to excoriate Bioware for the choice. I think they've proven they know what they're doing when it comes to voice talent, and are a high standard in the industry. I trust their judgement in that regard.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 29, 2017 14:15:19 GMT
As for her transition, I've gotten the impression that she is a peer of Varric's and that she is older than Dorian (she seems to have the attitude of a big sister toward him), so that would put her in her 40s, or nearing 40. She would be the similar type of more mature woman as we had with Cassandra. In the comics, which take place in 9:40, we see that she has not fully transitioned because she has no breasts. As was previously mentioned, she has wealth, she has magic and likely a positive view of magic, so I'd think that if she were going to have done it she might have long ago. Maybe she doesn't want to? Maybe there are untold dangers to using magic in this way that she doesn't want to risk? Who knows, really? We haven't seen magic used for that sort of transformation in the game before. I think having that be a part of the game really puts too much of a focus on that issue, and again there is that danger of that completely overtaking her character, which would be very unfortunate. I feel like it's worth pointing out that David Gaider wrote the comic, while Patrick Weekes wrote the conversation with Krem in which magical means for this were brought up, after the comic. Also, it can legitimately take quite some time for people to start to transition. Maybe it has something to do with her former husband, but I'd prefer that the idea not be written off. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 29, 2017 14:40:45 GMT
^ I just prefer that it not be a main focus for the character. I don't think it's bad if it's referenced, but I don't think there should be a quest or something so video-gamey for such a meaningful issue in a trans person's life. And I absolutely do NOT think that the player or PC should, in any way shape or form, have any input whatsoever.
Also, to be honest, it seems like it's a literal magical solution to not having to deal with it (from a developer or player PoV), either in writing a romance, or in addressing the issue of sex, or any of those things. She would magically have a woman's biological body and all would be perfect. (Yes, I get that some trans people would love a real magical solution to avoid hormones, surgeries, etc.)
They're not going to be able to please everyone. If Mae is in the game, there will be some trans people who like her portrayal, and how the writers choose to deal with the issue, and some who do not. It happened with Dorian, and it will happen with Mae too. There is no perfect solution that will make everyone happy, and I don't think there is only one right way to do it.
I wish David Gaider were going to write her =/.
[edit]
Also, as far as I can recall from the Krem conversation, it's basically a thought that the Inquisitor throws out there. Even though he lived and grew up in Tevinter, Krem is not a mage. The Inquisitor, even though they might be a mage, is certainly not a Tevinter mage, nor knows what kinds of convoluted things they get up to in the North. Just because that line of dialogue exists doesn't mean it's a real, practical solution that someone such as Maevaris, with the means and even the desire, can undertake.
I look at the question as similar to asking Dorian, "Can blood magic actually do that?" in reference to his father's actions. Even Dorian responds with, "Maybe." The Inquisitor doesn't know if that's even a thing that's possible but only knows that magic can do stuff.
I'd also suggest that a lot of PW's writing of Krem regarding trans issues was... not too great, so I don't want to hold that up as an indication of anything. IMO the best dialogue in the whole scene was about his dad shaving because of that emotional hook.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 15:31:29 GMT
Since y'all are talking about Sith stuff: one of my hopes for the next game is that the story is such that having a morally ambiguous character makes sense. In DAI, for all that the trailers hinted at "bringing the world to its bitter end" the story was built in such a way that our protagonist had to be something of a selfless do-gooder. The most questionable actions we could undertake were founding the Inquisition for ourselves and no one else, pissing off our companions, and having a heavy hand during judgments. DA2 was not much better in this way. Even a consistently aggressive Hawke was just kind of an asshole. DAO was a bit better, because you really could play a power-hungry maniac who toyed with peoples' lives. Not that I would want to play a completely one-dimensional "EEEEEEVIIIIIILL" character, but someone selfish and petty who doesn't care who gets hurt? Sure, why not. Oh, I know there were other things going on at the time, it's just that the severity of what was happening in the alienage seems like it's downplayed much of the time. Meanwhile I was horrified, and as soon as this Blight business was over with, I wanted to go infiltrate Tevinter. Or hit up Isabela and attack some slaver ships, or something. Incredibly reckless and unlikely to succeed, sure, but that's the sort of person my CE was. I think the problems faced by the alienage elves get downplayed quite a bit, and the purges are pretty horrific; consider how an orphanage was wiped out during the last purge that took place in Denerim, or what happened to the denizens of Halamshiral. I imagine there are a slew of problems faced by the impoverished and downtrodden elves of the Imperium, particularly if Varania's claims about freedom in the Imperium is any indication.I'm really, really curious about this. Varania's "freedom was no boon" comment coupled with Dorian's remarks about slavery vs. poverty have piqued my interest, and now I'd like to see first-hand what the lives of "free" elves in Tevinter are like. What kind of desperation drove Varania to Danarius? Poor Hawke. I'm wondering whether the Lucerni's top-down method of reform versus Calpernia's bottom-up, revolutionary tactics are more likely to be successful when it comes to changing Tevinter. Actually, I wonder whether their goals intercede much at all, given that Dorian's main beef seems to be with corruption and blood magic, whereas Calpernia seems to want slaves (and other lower class people) to be given the opportunity to be their "best" selves. To reach their full potential. She doesn't seem especially fussed about blood magic, and even seems to encourage it in pursuit of a worthy cause. "When a person's life was spent, it meant something--it bought something." I think both methods need to be in play if there is to be hope of real, lasting change. Tevinter has put down slave revolts before, so Calpernia isn't going to win with that alone. The other half of it is up to the Lucerni. I think you're probably quite right. Cooperation in Tevinter - someone alert the press!  That's a good point, and one I hadn't thought of. The tough thing about a graphic novel is that it's so ambiguous... there's only so much you can convey with a still picture, no voice, and no wider narration. I assumed the scantily-clad men in her dream were slaves, but you're right: it's never explicitly stated. |
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Post by shechinah on Jan 29, 2017 17:05:43 GMT
I think the problems faced by the alienage elves get downplayed quite a bit, and the purges are pretty horrific; consider how an orphanage was wiped out during the last purge that took place in Denerim, or what happened to the denizens of Halamshiral. I imagine there are a slew of problems faced by the impoverished and downtrodden elves of the Imperium, particularly if Varania's claims about freedom in the Imperium is any indication.I'm really, really curious about this. Varania's "freedom was no boon" comment coupled with Dorian's remarks about slavery vs. poverty have piqued my interest, and now I'd like to see first-hand what the lives of "free" elves in Tevinter are like. What kind of desperation drove Varania to Danarius? It can be various things that applies all free people, not just elves. An example would be finding work and this is especially if Varania and her mother were household slaves who cooked, sewed and cleaned. Slaves can and do the same work for no pay so the odds of them finding work are small. I would also think that employers can pay meager wages because of this. This likely extends to outside the cities in the country as well since farms would almost certainly have slaves especially for working in the field. Learning a new trade can be difficult and finding someone to teach said trade would be even harder: people in these kinds of settings are born into their trade by way of inheriting it from a parent. Most slaves are likely similarly trained to specialize in a trade like household slaves and bodyguard slaves that double as gladiator slaves.
It may not even be an option to leave the Tevinter Imperium to immigrate to another country where prospects are better. You'd need money such as for food and other travel expenses like if you needed to go by ship. That's not even going into the dangers of travelling: you got highway robbers, slavers and bandits to name a few potential dangers.
Additionally, there is also the dangers of living as a free nobody in the cities themselves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 29, 2017 18:36:16 GMT
I'm not clear about magical training either. Calpernia as a slave was bound by what her master was willing to give her and many mage slaves are in danger of being used in magical research, presumably because their magical blood is more potent and they have no rights under the law so can be treated as their master or the Circle sees fit. However, a liberati mage does not have citizenship either and so presumably would have to find a sponsor among the nobility to give them entry into a Circle. (Is education in the Circles free?) So even though Varania was free, she still needed to apprentice herself to someone in order to advance as a mage. According to the lore, the Laetan class of mage are the ones who most viciously via for power because they have to prove themselves over the power by blood Altus in order to advance to the higher levels of society. So naturally someone who started from as low a position as Varania had the odds stacked against her. Then it would seem that Denarius approached her and dangled the carrot of one day becoming a Magister. Personally I think this would never have been a reality because of the prejudice there would have been against her, but it is just possible that Denarius would have pushed for her advancement if he thought she had the right attitude for it. Being ruthless enough to betray the brother who had once freed her would likely qualify her for consideration, so may be the offer was genuine.
I also read somewhere that free elves in Tevinter actually are better off than elsewhere because there is an underclass of slaves. I suppose it does depend on whether they are Soporati (who are said to be mostly human) and thus actual citizens or simply Liberati and thus with few rights and scarcely better than a slave from that perspective. That is probably what Varania was meaning.
However, the point about the difficulty in finding work if it is something that slaves can do for nothing is a problem that was highlighted by Krem, so I think you may be right about the limitations in what a Liberati can do once freed. Of course, I think a slave normally is made Liberati as the reward for faithful service rather than their master has a conscience about keeping slaves, so may be they do continue to work for the same person as before but receive a nominal payment for their efforts.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 18:55:58 GMT
Not much to add to the above discussion except that I agree. It would be incredibly difficult for former slaves to find paying work when unpaid labor is so readily available. I'm sure Varania and Fenris's mother suffered terribly. I also don't think Varania had a chance in hell of becoming a magister. Danarius might've taken her on as an apprentice, but it'd be a half-assed effort on his part, and I don't think she would learn anything signficiant. The only scenario where this is even a possibility is if Hawke turns Fenris over... in which case Danarius got what he wanted from Varania and has approximately zero use for her now. Incaensor: dangerous but useful if controlled. Also, time for a Calpernia rant because I have a Calpernia problem: There's so much foreshadowing in her short story. So much hype. I hope something comes of it. “You [Darinius] came from nothing,” she said to the statue. “Your royal mother had to hide you from her enemies; you were raised as an orphan ignorant of your heritage. But your magic couldn’t be denied, nor your greatness. In time, you founded an empire. You changed the world.”
•
Standing with Darinius’s statue at her back, Calpernia glared at the magister now mewling at her feet. “You have no idea what I am,” she said. “You have never looked down long enough to see what was waiting beneath you. But when the Venatori rise, when a new god burns the Imperium’s corruption to dust, the slaves of Tevinter will walk free in the light. I will see it done!”
•
As she strode through the entrance to the courtyard, the helmeted slaves cowered away from her. Despite her glow of victory, Calpernia’s step faltered. Where she’d felt only contempt for Anodatus, there was boundless sympathy for these two. Those helmets hid faces of people with an inner life—and perhaps secret ambitions—as rich as hers. Anodatus had proved to be nothing, but these slaves had never been given a chance to prove they were anything. And there are so many minor details about her character that pop up either in-game or in the short story. Her comments about the "savage Qunari", she stumbles over her words when she's uncertain, has a preference for mint tea, how significant it is for her to be able to wear nice clothes and buy nice things and have them be hers, how she taught herself to read for love of knowledge... Despite the fact that she's an antagonist who is willing to do (and has done) horrible things in the name of a "just" cause, I feel like the writers went out of their way to give her a bunch of humanizing quirks when she could've easily been another Erimond. Instead, she's more like Anders or Loghain: obstinate, righteous, perhaps misguided... but her heart is in the right place. |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 29, 2017 21:05:59 GMT
Not much to add to the above discussion except that I agree. It would be incredibly difficult for former slaves to find paying work when unpaid labor is so readily available. I'm sure Varania and Fenris's mother suffered terribly. I also don't think Varania had a chance in hell of becoming a magister. Danarius might've taken her on as an apprentice, but it'd be a half-assed effort on his part, and I don't think she would learn anything signficiant. The only scenario where this is even a possibility is if Hawke turns Fenris over... in which case Danarius got what he wanted from Varania and has approximately zero use for her now. Incaensor: dangerous but useful if controlled. Also, time for a Calpernia rant because I have a Calpernia problem: There's so much foreshadowing in her short story. So much hype. I hope something comes of it. “You [Darinius] came from nothing,” she said to the statue. “Your royal mother had to hide you from her enemies; you were raised as an orphan ignorant of your heritage. But your magic couldn’t be denied, nor your greatness. In time, you founded an empire. You changed the world.”
•
Standing with Darinius’s statue at her back, Calpernia glared at the magister now mewling at her feet. “You have no idea what I am,” she said. “You have never looked down long enough to see what was waiting beneath you. But when the Venatori rise, when a new god burns the Imperium’s corruption to dust, the slaves of Tevinter will walk free in the light. I will see it done!”
•
As she strode through the entrance to the courtyard, the helmeted slaves cowered away from her. Despite her glow of victory, Calpernia’s step faltered. Where she’d felt only contempt for Anodatus, there was boundless sympathy for these two. Those helmets hid faces of people with an inner life—and perhaps secret ambitions—as rich as hers. Anodatus had proved to be nothing, but these slaves had never been given a chance to prove they were anything. And there are so many minor details about her character that pop up either in-game or in the short story. Her comments about the "savage Qunari", she stumbles over her words when she's uncertain, has a preference for mint tea, how significant it is for her to be able to wear nice clothes and buy nice things and have them be hers, how she taught herself to read for love of knowledge... Despite the fact that she's an antagonist who is willing to do (and has done) horrible things in the name of a "just" cause, I feel like the writers went out of their way to give her a bunch of humanizing quirks when she could've easily been another Erimond. Instead, she's more like Anders or Loghain: obstinate, righteous, perhaps misguided... but her heart is in the right place. It's deeply unfortunate that I can't access her at all; I don't have it in me to sell out the mages. The roleplaying justifications I've tried to come up with for going with the templars are flimsy at best, and... I don't know. I suppose there are things I can headcanon around, but my basis for it might be tentative. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 21:20:44 GMT
I have done IHW more times than CotJ, but here's how I justify conscripting the templars: I either have a character who automatically thinks that pouring more magic into the Breach will just destabilize it (in which case I go directly to the templars), or I have a character who looks at the situation in Redcliffe and decides that the only way to face a bunch of time-traveling Tevinter mages is with a bunch of templars on a leash. And character-wise, CotJ is all about the Inquisitor's fear of turning into a tyrant (and Envy's desire to see it happen). So I like to send characters who truly would be tempted by promises of power: a former Carta thug who could have easily turned ruthless and power-hungry if the Conclave hadn't happened, or a Circle mage who was deeply troubled and frustrated by her lack of say over her own life. It made Envy's offer harder to resist and all the more rewarding when I did. Plus I really wanted to meet Calpernia at least once. |
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gervaise21
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gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 29, 2017 21:26:12 GMT
Fortunately, for anyone who can't sell out the mages, as you put it, if they bring her back you can find all about her then. On a mage run Calpernia definitely survives but you just never get to meet her. This would not be a problem for a new PC since they will have no knowledge of her regardless of what you did in DAI.
The fact that Calpernia is never seen dead, even if the Inquisitor chooses to fight her, left it wide open for them to bring her back. She was definitely the most interesting of our antagonists, to my mind, and it does seem odd that they would have invested so much effort into her character if they were going to discard her altogether. That doesn't mean she will necessarily be a companion but she could be involved in some way.
What I like about her was that she seemed to want to be a champion of slaves and had experience as a slave in Tevinter but she wasn't anti-magic. She just made an appalling decision with regard to whom she should give her allegiance but given her background, it was understandable and clearly Corypheus didn't tell her his whole plan, so that could also excuse her of culpability in some of his plots.
Part of the problem with justifying role play options is the fact that they tell you in no uncertain fashion that this choice will cut you off from dealing with the others. In reality the Inquisitor wouldn't know this. So my non mage goes to Redcliffe, finds all that weirdness going on and doesn't believe Dorian's time magic explanation, since the mages in his party don't seem convinced, so thinks that Alexius has to be using blood magic to control the mages. This means potentially they could all be turned against him by Alexius if he walks into his lair and for all he knows they could make the breach in the sky worse even if they do help, so he decides he is out of his depth and needs the expert magical negating back-up, which he has been told is what Templars are for. He decides better the devil you know (the Templars) than the devil you don't (the Tevinter Magister) for dealing with the breach, after which it was his intention to go on a rescue mission for the mages. Unfortunately, that didn't happen and Corypheus came to get him with the mages in tow. The up side of taking that path is that whatever mages do survive, Fiona is no longer leading them and I get to totally disband the Templar order. (I also think the time magic plot is so out of keeping with the magical lore that was previously established and so poorly explained that I much prefer going with a plot line that involves a demon trying to possess you and actually makes sense in the established lore), |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 29, 2017 21:30:22 GMT
I have done IHW more times than CotJ, but here's how I justify conscripting the templars: I either have a character who automatically thinks that pouring more magic into the Breach will just destabilize it (in which case I go directly to the templars), or I have a character who looks at the situation in Redcliffe and decides that the only way to face a bunch of time-traveling Tevinter mages is with a bunch of templars on a leash. And character-wise, CotJ is all about the Inquisitor's fear of turning into a tyrant (and Envy's desire to see it happen). So I like to send characters who truly would be tempted by promises of power: a former Carta thug who could have easily turned ruthless and power-hungry if the Conclave hadn't happened, or a Circle mage who was deeply troubled and frustrated by her lack of say over her own life. It made Envy's offer harder to resist and all the more rewarding when I did. Plus I really wanted to meet Calpernia at least once. The best I can do is say that there's clearly something wrong going on with the templars, and that I have to investigate them to figure out what it is; the mages, meanwhile, should be relatively stable with the templars acting bizarrely. So if I have to wipe out the templars, fine; either way, the mages shouldn't be a concern. Of course, everything then goes horribly wrong with the Venatori showing up, leaving my PC riddled with guilt for the rest of the game. Still, while I think I can do this, another necessary factor to it is that I really don't like the Inquisition at all, and bringing the mages into it doesn't leave me feeling particularly sunny--I just want them safe. So I might be able to compensate for this with liberal degrees of headcanon, along the lines of my Inquisitor going out of her way to rehabilitate captured Venatori and trying to track down any former Circle mages, along with Calpernia keeping innocents from that group safe. |
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Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Jan 29, 2017 21:37:58 GMT
The fact that Calpernia is never seen dead, even if the Inquisitor chooses to fight her, left it wide open for them to bring her back. She was definitely the most interesting of our antagonists, to my mind, and it does seem odd that they would have invested so much effort into her character if they were going to discard her altogether. That doesn't mean she will necessarily be a companion but she could be involved in some way. I'd say it seems like the door was left open for Calpernia to return in some way by the developers in case they wanted her to. *According to Patrick Weekes, she is also apparently a favorite of the writers because of her story and personality so that might help nourish hope in those that want to see more of her.
I'm not quite sure that I'd be terrible fond of her as potential companion and I definitely would not be happy working in a subordinate capacity to her but I would not be opposed to her making a return.
*Source: www.nerdappropriate.com/2014/12/31/rated-na-184-inside-inquisition-with-patrick-weekes/
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 30, 2017 1:09:54 GMT
I have done IHW more times than CotJ, but here's how I justify conscripting the templars: I either have a character who automatically thinks that pouring more magic into the Breach will just destabilize it (in which case I go directly to the templars), or I have a character who looks at the situation in Redcliffe and decides that the only way to face a bunch of time-traveling Tevinter mages is with a bunch of templars on a leash. And character-wise, CotJ is all about the Inquisitor's fear of turning into a tyrant (and Envy's desire to see it happen). So I like to send characters who truly would be tempted by promises of power: a former Carta thug who could have easily turned ruthless and power-hungry if the Conclave hadn't happened, or a Circle mage who was deeply troubled and frustrated by her lack of say over her own life. It made Envy's offer harder to resist and all the more rewarding when I did. Plus I really wanted to meet Calpernia at least once. The best I can do is say that there's clearly something wrong going on with the templars, and that I have to investigate them to figure out what it is; the mages, meanwhile, should be relatively stable with the templars acting bizarrely. So if I have to wipe out the templars, fine; either way, the mages shouldn't be a concern. Of course, everything then goes horribly wrong with the Venatori showing up, leaving my PC riddled with guilt for the rest of the game. Still, while I think I can do this, another necessary factor to it is that I really don't like the Inquisition at all, and bringing the mages into it doesn't leave me feeling particularly sunny--I just want them safe. So I might be able to compensate for this with liberal degrees of headcanon, along the lines of my Inquisitor going out of her way to rehabilitate captured Venatori and trying to track down any former Circle mages, along with Calpernia keeping innocents from that group safe. I don't like picking the templar side either. In general, I prefer the IHW storyline and Alexius and Felix; it flows better to me, with an entire area dedicated to the templar presence in Emerald Graves and Emprise du Lion, that to my mind is NOT offset by the Venatori content in the Hissing Wastes. I find IHW more fun to play through, with the timed component of CotJ a downside. I also have that as part of my headcanon in the romance progression path for my Inquisitor and Dorian. I play the same Inquisitor repeatedly, so it's difficult to make other decisions. To me, the only upside to picking that path is to play through the whole Calpernia content, and also because the CotJ mission is the only time that the PC gets to be affected by Cole in his unique way, so I think that is important to understand how Cole does his thing. For the IHW path, the Inquisitor never experiences that aspect of Cole as all of the others do in banter. I started a templar play once, but never finished it. My justification for picking the templars is based on their ability to combat magic. For that roleplay, I do go to Redcliffe to see what is going on there, meet with Alexius, and get the scoop from Dorian. At that point, the thought is, "This is all so insane! We need the templars to combat this crazy time magic and rogue Tevinter magister!" It is only a game gimmick that you can only pick one side. Furthermore, while the mage option does have dialogue from the advisors specifically sating why you can only pick one, the templar side does not. If you go with the roleplay as I stated above, it's perfectly reasonable to run from Redcliffe and immediately pick the templar side. In this instance the character doesn't know that only one path is an option, even if the player does because of specific UI text stating so. I suppose I'll do it eventually, before the next game comes out, but it's not high on my priority list. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 30, 2017 1:45:37 GMT
Yeah, they both have their perks. I love CotJ because it's a great intro for Cole - it really gives you a reason to trust him, considering he saves your life - and I enjoy the nightmarish mindfuck aspect of fighting a demon in your own head. (Finally, I know what it's like to be a mage in this setting!) The whole quest is deliciously creepy, with your uncanny valley advisors and Leliana's murder knife and all of your closest friends imprisoned (by "you", no less). It's a very cool quest, and absolutely worth doing once.
But on the whole I prefer IHW for several reasons. The first being... I just like Tevinter, and this has a loooot of Tevinter content. I love Felix. I like talking shit to Alexius. Sera's comments break my heart every time, and seeing everyone corrupted by red lyrium is a punch in the guts. I think my Inquisitor probably has some seriously nightmarish flashbacks to that final confrontation where Leliana and Sera and Bull go out fighting to give Adaar and Dorian a chance to save the world. And since there's time travel, other people... like Hawke, and Sigrun, and Zevran, and Merrill, and Isabela, and the Warden... I shudder to think of what happened to Fenris with his lyrium tattoos... all those people are either dead or suffering horribly in this timeline. It's not a dream. It all happened, even if you can undo it.
So IHW wins overall, but I think they're both worth playing if you can think of a character concept who'd gel with it.
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lobselvith8
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
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August 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 1:58:23 GMT
I have done IHW more times than CotJ, but here's how I justify conscripting the templars: I either have a character who automatically thinks that pouring more magic into the Breach will just destabilize it (in which case I go directly to the templars), or I have a character who looks at the situation in Redcliffe and decides that the only way to face a bunch of time-traveling Tevinter mages is with a bunch of templars on a leash. And character-wise, CotJ is all about the Inquisitor's fear of turning into a tyrant (and Envy's desire to see it happen). So I like to send characters who truly would be tempted by promises of power: a former Carta thug who could have easily turned ruthless and power-hungry if the Conclave hadn't happened, or a Circle mage who was deeply troubled and frustrated by her lack of say over her own life. It made Envy's offer harder to resist and all the more rewarding when I did. Plus I really wanted to meet Calpernia at least once. The best I can do is say that there's clearly something wrong going on with the templars, and that I have to investigate them to figure out what it is; the mages, meanwhile, should be relatively stable with the templars acting bizarrely. So if I have to wipe out the templars, fine; either way, the mages shouldn't be a concern. Of course, everything then goes horribly wrong with the Venatori showing up, leaving my PC riddled with guilt for the rest of the game. Still, while I think I can do this, another necessary factor to it is that I really don't like the Inquisition at all, and bringing the mages into it doesn't leave me feeling particularly sunny--I just want them safe. So I might be able to compensate for this with liberal degrees of headcanon, along the lines of my Inquisitor going out of her way to rehabilitate captured Venatori and trying to track down any former Circle mages, along with Calpernia keeping innocents from that group safe. Well, Xil, you can conscript the templars (instead of making them an ally) to shut down the Order of Templars (especially given your preference for the Divine), and it's canon that some mages are working for the Institution if you elect to make the templars your conscripts. Also, I imagine Calpernia would reform the Venatori once she learns the truth and Corypheus is dealt with, so I don't think you'd need to worry about that (I confess that having such a background available for the main character is one I find intriguing). |
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 30, 2017 5:39:55 GMT
The best I can do is say that there's clearly something wrong going on with the templars, and that I have to investigate them to figure out what it is; the mages, meanwhile, should be relatively stable with the templars acting bizarrely. So if I have to wipe out the templars, fine; either way, the mages shouldn't be a concern. Of course, everything then goes horribly wrong with the Venatori showing up, leaving my PC riddled with guilt for the rest of the game. Still, while I think I can do this, another necessary factor to it is that I really don't like the Inquisition at all, and bringing the mages into it doesn't leave me feeling particularly sunny--I just want them safe. So I might be able to compensate for this with liberal degrees of headcanon, along the lines of my Inquisitor going out of her way to rehabilitate captured Venatori and trying to track down any former Circle mages, along with Calpernia keeping innocents from that group safe. Well, Xil, you can conscript the templars (instead of making them an ally) to shut down the Order of Templars (especially given your preference for the Divine), and it's canon that some mages are working for the Institution if you elect to make the templars your conscripts. Also, I imagine Calpernia would reform the Venatori once she learns the truth and Corypheus is dealt with, so I don't think you'd need to worry about that (I confess that having such a background available for the main character is one I find intriguing). I generally prefer In hushed Whispers to Champions of the Just , even though I felt the time travel plot was poorly implemented. That said, I think everyone should try CotJ at least once for the following: - Throwing your weight around with the nobility and the Templars. - Cole's initial Where's Waldo appearances are a game onto themselves. - The dark and moody atmosphere, especially when Envy gets into your head. - The dark visions where Envy becomes God Emperor inquisitor. Though I can understand why some players hate these, like Bioware is teasing them with all the evil they wished they could do  . - Cole's rescue and unique dialogue; you'll want to cheer and laugh as he makes Envy completely lose it  . - Extra attribute points are never a bad thing  . -Even when confronted with how far they've fallen, I love it when Ser Barris reminds his brothers of what Templars should be. - The fight to secure uncorrupted lyrium is fast and tense, but not too much since rescuing the Templars resets the timer. - Envy's true form; if you are a horror fan, you'll appreciate just how wrong this thing is. - For those who believe in redemption, you can help the Templars rise and remember their oaths to protect the innocent. - For those who really hate the Templar Order, you can give them an epic "The Reason You Suck Speech", breaking them as they become another tool of the Inquisition. - Unlike Samson, you can execute Knight-Captain Denam if you wish. - If Lord Esmeral Abernache survives, his War Table mission with Morvan the Under is hilarious.
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If Maevaris does have a romance quest, in my opinion she should be completely over Thorold's death. Otherwise, Carth Syndrome anyone  ?
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Regarding Old God worship, there's a few questions I hope DA4 answers:
- Are they limited to fringe cults, or do they hold real power? - How strictly enforced is the ban on Old God Worship in Tevinter, if at all? - Do they limit themselves to the remaining ones (Razikale and Lusacan), or do they think the others will return? - If the later, how do the "good" members justify honoring gods of Chaos and Slaves? - Are they trying to undermine the Grey Wardens in order to "save" Lusacan and Razikale? On one hand, this presents interesting opportunities for the player to see an uncorrupted Old God. On the other hand, *YAY moar Deep Roads*   .
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 30, 2017 7:14:22 GMT
If the original Grey Wardens were largely made up from soldiers from the Tevinter Imperium who went awol, then they most likely worshipped the Old Gods. Perhaps they rationalised killing the Archdemon as being necessary to "save" the Old God from it's corruption?
We saw in Legacy that there was a shrine dedicated to Dumat at the base of Corypheus' prison, which was built around -191 Ancient. This might suggest that Old God worship continued among the Wardens following the First Blight, before they converted officially to Andrastianism in 1:33 during the Second Blight.
Would be curious to see if some fringe cults (or even Wardens) still believed in the Old Gods?
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 30, 2017 13:30:19 GMT
Since someone mentioned Feynriel, I'll point out that any content featuring him would have to be limited due to the various choices the player can make regarding him. In addition to being in Tevinter, he could be possessed or tranquil.
I do think it would be neat, though.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 30, 2017 15:46:48 GMT
Walter Black I don't know about you but I'm excited to go back to the Deep Roads.  Especially after everything that happened with Valta. If the original Grey Wardens were largely made up from soldiers from the Tevinter Imperium who went awol, then they most likely worshipped the Old Gods. Perhaps they rationalised killing the Archdemon as being necessary to "save" the Old God from it's corruption? We saw in Legacy that there was a shrine dedicated to Dumat at the base of Corypheus' prison, which was built around -191 Ancient. This might suggest that Old God worship continued among the Wardens following the First Blight, before they converted officially to Andrastianism in 1:33 during the Second Blight. Would be curious to see if some fringe cults (or even Wardens) still believed in the Old Gods? I have nothing to contribute because I am useless but I am 1000000% ready for this. Bring on the Old God cults. Bring on the dragons! Please tell me about her Ladyship, Most Holy Razikale! Since someone mentioned Feynriel, I'll point out that any content featuring him would have to be limited due to the various choices the player can make regarding him. In addition to being in Tevinter, he could be possessed or tranquil. I do think it would be neat, though. Oh yeah, I figure if he does show up he'll have a little cameo like Connor or something. Nothing big. Just a nod to DA2.
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Especially after everything that happened with Valta.