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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 23:17:23 GMT
Ashley is a ninja-mancing queen. Unless you're rude to her onboard the Normandy she thinks you're in a relationship. Luckily I resolved that awkward situation by nuking her into oblivion. So much for romances being "optional." I feel your pain. I've had to have the "No Ash, we're not together talk" too. Oh god, I'm terrible. I just avoided the conversation altogether and suggested a lovely little walk on a planet I'd heard of called Virmire.
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Post by roselavellan on Aug 17, 2016 23:26:10 GMT
Funny thing is I have a similar problem with Leliana in every playthrough. I tell her "No" and then three conversations later she's accusing me of leading her on, because obviously I romanced someone else. This is only avoided by actually romancing her. Lol, haven't experienced that with Liara, but I remember that with Leliana. One minute I thought she really liked my hair, and the next we were an item
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 17, 2016 23:51:14 GMT
Ashley is a ninja-mancing queen. Unless you're rude to her onboard the Normandy she thinks you're in a relationship. Luckily I resolved that awkward situation by nuking her into oblivion. I didn't have a problem with Ashley, actually. The time was trying to romance her I almost screwed it up because I got a little aggressive about her alien complaints. Had to load and redo that. I wonder if that comes from the problem that both Kaidan/Ashley have somewhat miss-able reject options. with Kaidan it's the "My personal business isn't yours" in which case he backs off. I really don't remember what Ashley's is. I know when I did Liara with mShep I didn't have any conflict with her and I didn't flirt. Funny thing is I have a similar problem with Leliana in every playthrough. I tell her "No" and then three conversations later she's accusing me of leading her on, because obviously I romanced someone else. This is only avoided by actually romancing her. Lol, haven't experienced that with Liara, but I remember that with Leliana. One minute I thought she really liked my hair, and the next we were an item You won't have that with Liara until you try to have a single Shepard. But, you might be lucky and not have that problem. Some players don't. A lot do, though. With Leliana she blatantly confesses to me and I tell her "No, I just want to be friends" but for whatever reason that line doesn't stick. Ever.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 18, 2016 3:42:28 GMT
That's a tough one. I guess it depends on your Femshep's story. Both have at least one game in which you can't really romance them but it's relevant and essential to continue all the way through the trilogy (Garrus MUST be on your team in ME1 to romance in 2, and Kaidan of course, you have to be loyal to him in 2). Garrus' is a good story about friends who grow close together through thick and thin. He's available to fight alongside through the entire trilogy and though nothing seems to happen in the first, 2 will ramp things up after recruiting him at Omega and 3 will end with him proposing to Femshep at the end. Kaidan will start right off with an attraction to Shep in ME1, go through a hardship in 2 where their relationship, or whatever is left of it, is strained but by 3, will overcome the difficulties of trust and come out stronger by the end. It may help if you're roleplaying your Shepard's personality. Is she diplomatic, butting heads with Garrus but always respectful despite their disagreements? Or is she blunt as a maul, readily agrees with Garrus' any means to an end motto? The same goes for Kaidan. Do they share that similar view of thinking things over carefully before proceeding or is Kaidan that moral anchor for a rash, take no quarter Shep? I suppose if you want to take it further, does her class compliment a sentinel or an infiltrator more? I do rather love yin yang class differences between couples. I agree, I love to do this with my characters/romances too. My FemShep was Earthborn and a vanguard, who liked shotguns and close combat...I dragged Garrus with me pretty much everywhere. For me, Garrus just matched the version of Shepard I had going on, and my headcanon. But they are both good characters and romances, and they both can compliment Shepard's personality in different ways. I think I was also fascinated by the idea of an alien romance--could Shepard fall in love with someone so different, from a completely different world, and what if that person was who she really loved. Would she go for it, or go for something maybe closer to home, but that she didn't truly love? I thought that was just an interesting question, and I liked the Liara and Tali romances as well. Tali, whose face you can't see, so it's maybe more her personality that attracts Shepard at first. And then Liara with the vastly different lifespan, etc. I like the pacing of the Garrus romance, how it builds over the course of the 3 games. I can imagine how the Kaidan romance might have been frustrating back when ME2 first came out, and then having to wait between games to resolve things, but that's not a problem anymore, and it is good drama I think.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 10:22:59 GMT
Ashley is a ninja-mancing queen. Unless you're rude to her onboard the Normandy she thinks you're in a relationship. Luckily I resolved that awkward situation by nuking her into oblivion. I didn't have a problem with Ashley, actually. The time was trying to romance her I almost screwed it up because I got a little aggressive about her alien complaints. Had to load and redo that. I wonder if that comes from the problem that both Kaidan/Ashley have somewhat miss-able reject options. with Kaidan it's the "My personal business isn't yours" in which case he backs off. I really don't remember what Ashley's is. I know when I did Liara with mShep I didn't have any conflict with her and I didn't flirt. My male shep was simply polite and friendly to Ash, and she assumed they were in a relationship. For that not to happen you need to be quite sharp with her, so if you're playing a nice guy who isn't interested you're screwed. Literally. It makes no damn sense, just being nice doesn't equal wanting to sleep with someone. Thank god DAI has those banners come up and say 'if you click this you're in a relationship OKAY'. Needed that in all the other games too.
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Post by fraggle on Aug 18, 2016 10:59:33 GMT
I didn't have a problem with Ashley, actually. The time was trying to romance her I almost screwed it up because I got a little aggressive about her alien complaints. Had to load and redo that. I wonder if that comes from the problem that both Kaidan/Ashley have somewhat miss-able reject options. with Kaidan it's the "My personal business isn't yours" in which case he backs off. I really don't remember what Ashley's is. I know when I did Liara with mShep I didn't have any conflict with her and I didn't flirt. My male shep was simply polite and friendly to Ash, and she assumed they were in a relationship. For that not to happen you need to be quite sharp with her, so if you're playing a nice guy who isn't interested you're screwed. Literally. It makes no damn sense, just being nice doesn't equal wanting to sleep with someone. Thank god DAI has those banners come up and say 'if you click this you're in a relationship OKAY'. Needed that in all the other games too. I haven't actually tried this with Ash because I was an ass to her anyway (plus I Virmire'd her 3 of my 5 playthroughs, and the 2 times I picked her I romanced her in one, and had a FemShep in the other). Anyway, what I wanted to say was that there's an option to let Kaidan down gently with a dialogue option when he asks whether he's wrong about picking up some signals between you. I will test this at some point with Ash too. For Liara, her Renegade turn down option is bugged for console users from what I know, so I always pick the neutral option to stay friends and I wasn't ninjamanced ever To be honest when I don't want to romance anyone I often pick neutral choices, same in ME2 because being a Paragon apparently makes you interested in everything that has 2 legs The romance stuff was a lot better in ME3, so I think for MEA we don't have to fear a lot.
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 18, 2016 12:06:26 GMT
Ashley is a ninja-mancing queen. Unless you're rude to her onboard the Normandy she thinks you're in a relationship. Luckily I resolved that awkward situation by nuking her into oblivion. So much for romances being "optional." I feel your pain. I've had to have the "No Ash, we're not together talk" too. Yeah, had that too. When I don't really want to romance her, I just play my Sheps as having something developing between the two, only for Virmire to 'tragically' happen. *whistles innocently* The one that really forces me to use the 'I want to be friends' talk is Liara. >.> Even Leliana didn't persist that much (though I tend to go 'Hey, Lel, have I mentioned that we're *friends*?' in every other dialogue).
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 18, 2016 13:59:49 GMT
That's a tough one. I guess it depends on your Femshep's story. Both have at least one game in which you can't really romance them but it's relevant and essential to continue all the way through the trilogy (Garrus MUST be on your team in ME1 to romance in 2, and Kaidan of course, you have to be loyal to him in 2). Garrus' is a good story about friends who grow close together through thick and thin. He's available to fight alongside through the entire trilogy and though nothing seems to happen in the first, 2 will ramp things up after recruiting him at Omega and 3 will end with him proposing to Femshep at the end. Kaidan will start right off with an attraction to Shep in ME1, go through a hardship in 2 where their relationship, or whatever is left of it, is strained but by 3, will overcome the difficulties of trust and come out stronger by the end. It may help if you're roleplaying your Shepard's personality. Is she diplomatic, butting heads with Garrus but always respectful despite their disagreements? Or is she blunt as a maul, readily agrees with Garrus' any means to an end motto? The same goes for Kaidan. Do they share that similar view of thinking things over carefully before proceeding or is Kaidan that moral anchor for a rash, take no quarter Shep? I suppose if you want to take it further, does her class compliment a sentinel or an infiltrator more? I do rather love yin yang class differences between couples. I romanced Kaidan in ME 1 , didn't romance Garrus, but my favourite is Thane even devs forgot in ME3 that he was an LI in ME2. Anyway about Kaidan, I liked him a lot in ME1 and I don't share opinion that he is whinning or something. What's put me off from Kaidan was ME2 and ME3. I value trust in my relationships and unfortunetly Kaidan havn't any trust in Shepard in ME2 and at the start ME3. There is also another thing . Dr. Chakwas, Joker and some other NPCs belived Shepard and prefered to leave Alliance after they were a witness, that Alliance and Council spreaded a lies about Citadel attack, reapers and all those things. Kaidan was with Shepard, he saw Reapers and he knew the truth, still he done nothing to defend Shepard and her words. That's not something I expected from someone who is LI of my PC. I know, that a lot of things depends on devs writing ( Horizont wasn't the best), but still I lost connection between Shepard and Kaidan. They remain friends, but it can't be something more between them. Anyway Kaidan romance is nice in one and if You like character and don't care about his absence in ME3 give him a chance. Of course if You can accept " trust crisis" in theirs relationship. From other hand Garrus romance which evolved from a strong friendship ( in my case it's really strong friendship between Garrus and my Shep) is interesting idea too. I saw video on yt and Garrus romance looks fine, but remember, that's possible only in last part of Trilogy.
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 18, 2016 14:02:52 GMT
Kaidan is absent in ME2, sorry for mistake in my post above, don't know yet, how to edit posts here
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Post by opuspace on Aug 18, 2016 15:56:59 GMT
Kaidan is absent in ME2, sorry for mistake in my post above, don't know yet, how to edit posts here If you click on the gear icon in your own post, you'll get several options to edit, report...uh...crud, I should have paid better attention to the rest. The edit IS there though, I swear!
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 18, 2016 18:03:17 GMT
Thank You for help Opuspace
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Post by legbamel on Aug 18, 2016 20:37:55 GMT
While I admit the first time through Virmire I was furious with Kaidan and ran straight to Thane for comfort, after some thought I grew sympathetic to his viewpoint. Here's this career military guy who is often viewed with mistrust because of his biotics (and then there are the crippling headaches from his implant) who got together with Shepard for, what, a few months?
Then she appears to fake her own death and reappears two years later leading a crew from an organization whose horrific experiments we shut down in the first game. Why would he throw away his career at that point and just take her word that she really was dead for two years? Why wouldn't he have trust issues?
Sadly it isn't until nearly the end of ME3 that he gets proof of the truth. That he's willing to trust her before that point shows the depth of his feelings for her. At least to me!
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 18, 2016 20:53:12 GMT
While I admit the first time through Virmire I was furious with Kaidan and ran straight to Thane for comfort, after some thought I grew sympathetic to his viewpoint. Here's career military guy who is often viewed with mistrust because of his biotics (and then there are the crippling headaches from his implant) who got together with Shepard for, what, a few months? Then she appears to fake her own death and reappears two years later leading a crew from an organization whose horrific experiments we shut down in the first game. Why would he throw away his career at that point and just take her word that she really was dead for two years? Why wouldn't he have trust issues? Sadly it isn't until nearly the end of ME3 that he gets proof of the truth. That he's willing to trust her before that point shows the depth of his feelings for her. At least to me! Yes, exactly. I've already written this before at another site, but it's worth writing here as well, I think. The Illusive Man let it slip that Shepard is alive and working with Cerberus, which made Alliance suspicious of Shepard as a traitor. Anderson stonewalled Kaidan when he tried to find out if the rumours of Shepard resurfacing were true, but he also stonewalled Shepard when asked news about Kaidan. Anderson might have had good intentions and was thinking that he was doing them a favour (and protecting Alliance's interests), but that means neither had the chance to explain themselves to the other. By the time they meet in Horizon, Kaidan's confused, hurt, and angry all at once, and he doesn't know *what* to believe. If he believes Shepard, it means that Cerberus, a group that he considers terrorists, are right about the Collectors and, consequently, he will have to question his faith in the Alliance that *they* are doing the right thing. To expect Kaidan to change his worldview at such short notice is a rather tall order. It's the events at ME3 that slowly help him put things into perspective.
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 18, 2016 21:54:12 GMT
I understand yours point of view, but there are things that I don't buy, really. Kaidan never gave Shepard a chance to explain things. He trusted Alliance and Council, while he saw, that they tried to hide truth about Reapers and this same marked Shepard as a liar. He is the only one person who don't belive Shepard and don't care about her explanation. Sorry but for me is a bad writting. I understand what Devs wanted to do, but for me it's just was end of theirs relationship. Ok we get strange letter from him but that's all...He even never tried to contact with Shepard between ME2 and ME3. I know it was impossible but hey..no one single try even? There was a moment I even had feelings that he just exchange Shepard for military rank...But as I said before Im ok with different pov.
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Post by legbamel on Aug 18, 2016 21:57:07 GMT
Add to this the fact that Kaidan had no idea Shep was going to show up. At least she had a little warning (though I first thought he had been "collected" and we'd get to rescue him). I doubt I'd have reacted any better to the seeming conformation of those Cerberus rumors.
To actually address the original question, no matter what my She's personality I just can't romance Harris. He's always my best friend and even flirting with him makes me think, "Really, Shep?" I've seen the videos and the whole thing is very sweet but I just can't see him that way.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 18, 2016 23:59:58 GMT
I understand yours point of view, but there are things that I don't buy, really. Kaidan never gave Shepard a chance to explain things. He trusted Alliance and Council, while he saw, that they tried to hide truth about Reapers and this same marked Shepard as a liar. He is the only one person who don't belive Shepard and don't care about her explanation. Sorry but for me is a bad writting. I understand what Devs wanted to do, but for me it's just was end of theirs relationship. Ok we get strange letter from him but that's all...He even never tried to contact with Shepard between ME2 and ME3. I know it was impossible but hey..no one single try even? There was a moment I even had feelings that he just exchange Shepard for military rank...But as I said before Im ok with different pov. Is this a complaint with the writing or with Kaidan? Because the pitfalls of his writing aren't his fault. I was far more irritated in how restrained Shepard's communication was on Horizon, just like Kaidan Fan said. They didn't allow Shepard to have much say before, during and after that discussion, and the VS suffers for it. Those responses felt like a joke when I was talking to someone I genuinely cared about and trying to explain things to them. The fact that only a romanced VS gets the apology message is even more frustrating. So, that's another reason why I don't hold Horizon as much of an issue. It feels like a forced conflict. The VS being emotional is part of the point and why I feel they are so easily dismissed -- the reactions to their "betrayals" is often just as emotionally fueled. About the "no contact" thing between 2-3, I think it's interesting how Ashley will mention she thought of visiting Shepard (or she did with my Shep that romanced her) but ultimately couldn't bring herself to do it -- it was just difficult, not an unwillingness. I'd figured the same of Kaidan. Could you imagine how hard it would be to reach out to the same person you more or less blew up on? Considering Shep can sever ties with him permanently in 3 I sympathize with any possible trepidation -- Shepard is intimidating, no? I feel why he didn't contact Shep is more up for interpretation than evidence. I'm really not sure what you mean there. I like Adams' stance on the situation: "I saw what happened to you when the Normandy went down. I didn't trust that it was really you and I certainly didn't trust Cerberus..." A very reasonable take on the circumstances that I can respect. I mean, my Shepard did have the Akuze thing happen, so...
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Post by legbamel on Aug 19, 2016 0:35:58 GMT
And of course Shep went from Cerberus lackey to blowing up the relay and destroys a couple hundred thousand Batarians so she could become a jailbird. Considering the pro/only-human stance of Cerberus it seems reasonable for the VS to doubt whether that was truly an attempt to stop the Reapers. Edit: For me, a bit part of the problem with Kaidan's romance lies in the compressed timeline BioWare chose for the story. I wrote a long post about it here: biowarefan.blogspot.com/2012/05/mass-effect-timeline-issues-and-kaidans.html but the upshot it that the actual relationship turns out to have been quite short.
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Post by roselavellan on Aug 19, 2016 0:42:40 GMT
Is this a complaint with the writing or with Kaidan? Because the pitfalls of his writing aren't his fault. I was far more irritated in how restrained Shepard's communication was on Horizon, just like Kaidan Fan said. They didn't allow Shepard to have much say before, during and after that discussion, and the VS suffers for it. Those responses felt like a joke when I was talking to someone I genuinely cared about and trying to explain things to them. The fact that only a romanced VS gets the apology message is even more frustrating. So, that's another reason why I don't hold Horizon as much of an issue. It feels like a forced conflict. It does seem forced. What was Bioware trying to achieve here? Were they trying to legitimise the relationship Shepard then chooses to have in ME2, without making it seem like a betrayal? The thing is, it is the writing that makes the character. So even if you were to say that it was bad writing, that is what Kaidan's character becomes. And that's where it was disappointing for me. Here we have an exemplary soldier who will become the second human Spectre. He is under tremendous stress, having just seen a colony taken by the Collectors, after which his dead GF appears, possibly working for the enemy. I understand it's a lot to handle emotionally. But if he is supposed to be good enough to be humanity's second Spectre, can't we expect slightly more emotional control from him? At least just enough to say, "What the hell is going on, Shepard?" To me, his emotional outburst was either a seriously poor decision on Bioware's part, or they meant to portray him as someone who lacks emotional control.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 19, 2016 0:48:54 GMT
And of course Shep went from Cerberus lackey to blowing up the relay and destroys a couple hundred thousand Batarians so she could become a jailbird. Considering the pro/only-human stance of Cerberus it seems reasonable for the VS to doubt whether that was truly an attempt to stop the Reapers. Edit: For me, a bit part of the problem with Kaidan's romance lies in the compressed timeline BioWare chose for the story. I wrote a long post about it here: biowarefan.blogspot.com/2012/05/mass-effect-timeline-issues-and-kaidans.html but the upshot it that the actual relationship turns out to have been quite short. Part of what makes it so jarring was that there wasn't enough questioning. Especially if Shepard was an Akuze survivor. Kaidan's the kind of person who would have checked the facts, he's too rational to jump the gun that early. Even if he gets past the enormous hurdle of believing that it's Shepard, why think Shep's done it willingly? Blackmail, mind control, deception, something far more coercive would be the first thing to pop in my head if I was in Kaidan's/Ashely's place. Blah, the writers did not need to do this to Kaidan. He had legitimate reasons for not being able to join Shepard. It'd be one thing if the drama was meant to enhance the story but it got dropped and neglected. Ninja'd!: Roselavellan, you explain it better than I
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Walkin' shoes walkin' back into BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Walkin' shoes walkin' back into BSN.
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Post by legbamel on Aug 19, 2016 0:57:34 GMT
I always took it as, "I thought I knew you but obviously I was wrong." The message immediately afterward shows his rethinking his conclusions but things move so fast in ME-verse that by the time Shep has a minute to breathe she's in jail.
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roselavellan
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Post by roselavellan on Aug 19, 2016 1:28:17 GMT
Btw, I'm new to the ME universe (and fandom). Does this tend to be a controversial topic? I don't want to seem overly harsh about Kaidan here, I do think he's a good person and I quite like him. Part of what makes it so jarring was that there wasn't enough questioning. Especially if Shepard was an Akuze survivor. Kaidan's the kind of person who would have checked the facts, he's too rational to jump the gun that early. Even if he gets past the enormous hurdle of believing that it's Shepard, why think Shep's done it willingly? Blackmail, mind control, deception, something far more coercive would be the first thing to pop in my head if I was in Kaidan's/Ashely's place. Blah, the writers did not need to do this to Kaidan. He had legitimate reasons for not being able to join Shepard. It'd be one thing if the drama was meant to enhance the story but it got dropped and neglected. Ninja'd!: Roselavellan, you explain it better than I Thanks! Though I thought what you said was perfectly on point. There wasn't enough questioning.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 19, 2016 1:41:09 GMT
Is this a complaint with the writing or with Kaidan? Because the pitfalls of his writing aren't his fault. I was far more irritated in how restrained Shepard's communication was on Horizon, just like Kaidan Fan said. They didn't allow Shepard to have much say before, during and after that discussion, and the VS suffers for it. Those responses felt like a joke when I was talking to someone I genuinely cared about and trying to explain things to them. The fact that only a romanced VS gets the apology message is even more frustrating. So, that's another reason why I don't hold Horizon as much of an issue. It feels like a forced conflict. It does seem forced. What was Bioware trying to achieve here? Were they trying to legitimise the relationship Shepard then chooses to have in ME2, without making it seem like a betrayal? The thing is, it is the writing that makes the character. So even if you were to say that it was bad writing, that is what Kaidan's character becomes. And that's where it was disappointing for me. Here we have an exemplary soldier who will become the second human Spectre. He is under tremendous stress, having just seen a colony taken by the Collectors, after which his dead GF appears, possibly working for the enemy. I understand it's a lot to handle emotionally. But if he is supposed to be good enough to be humanity's second Spectre, can't we expect slightly more emotional control from him? At least just enough to say, "What the hell is going on, Shepard?" To me, his emotional outburst was either a seriously poor decision on Bioware's part, or they meant to portray him as someone who lacks emotional control. I just feel there's a difference between disliking a character because of the way they were written, and blaming them for how they were written. When it comes to a case that feels out of character, or just perplexing, that falls on the writing failing to portray them or their motivations the right way. As to whether or not it is out of character is subjective. It's all a fine line I suppose, but when dubious things happen it's writing that is the problem. Given Kaidan's history, he's the kind of person who tries to keep a tight lid on his emotions -- he never, ever, wanted to repeat or come close to what happened in the past with Vyrnnus. So, I go with bad decision from BioWare. This does, however, happen way before he's a Spectre. But, he shorted a fuse after the fact when the mission was over and then left. By 3 he's been promoted again and is training other biotics, and seems just as even tempered as before only with a little more baggage. As for why this happens with the VS, I don't know. They wanted conflict? They wanted to use the VS as an indirect antagonist? For drama? Some people did Liara, so there's no romantic connection there. Some of the stuff in ME is just screwy. *I don't know that it's controversial topic as I haven't been active in the forums for very long. I just know that Kaidan(/Ashley) get dumped on a lot. I have a different perspective and try to convey that. Besides, this isn't a heated debate (yet ), we're just having a discussion. I should say that my feelings for/towards Kaidan/Horizon weren't entirely positive at first but I worked through it pretty quickly. His message was very much appreciated.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 19, 2016 1:46:24 GMT
Btw, I'm new to the ME universe (and fandom). Does this tend to be a controversial topic? I don't want to seem overly harsh about Kaidan here, I do think he's a good person and I quite like him. Thanks! Though I thought what you said was perfectly on point. There wasn't enough questioning. Aww, Thank you! I also want to emphasize what you said with this quote and agree with you about Kaidan. My criticism of Horizon's writing and what it forced Kaidan to do does not mean that I hold it against him. ME3's mission on Mars always seemed to be the revised version of Horizon and how the fight was meant to go. Everything made more sense once I realized why they were rehashing it out again. "For all I know, you could have been their puppet." THANK YOU, KAIDAN! THAT WAS REASONABLE AND FULLY JUSTIFIED! The Citadel coup was a very well done portrayal of trust and faith between them. Hoo boy, anything that went wrong was all on Shep's head at that point.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 19, 2016 1:51:46 GMT
And I want to say sorry, Spirit Vanguard, if I'm sounding like I'm dumping on Kaidan. I'm not mad at him; I'm mad they took him out of character. It'd be like if Garrus became a Cerberus supporter. I'd be flipping out over that in a similar way. I do feel bad for Ashley/Kaidan fans. ME3 made them much more reasonable to talk to, but you know what? They really needed that closure in an ME2 dlc and Arrival was, as dgcatanisiri said, the perfect chance for it.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 19, 2016 2:02:56 GMT
Oh, I'm not accusing anyone here of dumping on Kaidan, just that I've generally seen it.
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