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Post by witchcocktor on May 13, 2017 10:58:18 GMT
Fenris is the best husband of all of DA. Now only if I could've romanced him as my Inquisitor instead... :DD: Yeah! Fenris is so great! He just needs to learn not to fear. The rivalry's the better way with him (for me ofc, more believable), but also the friendship nice. He's nearly perfect. But Anders still the best romance option, because of the story. You say that while a mage is blowing up a chantry with innocent people in it. Oh yeah, there's NOOO reason to fear :ulikeit:
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 11:02:27 GMT
Yeah! Fenris is so great! He just needs to learn not to fear. The rivalry's the better way with him (for me ofc, more believable), but also the friendship nice. He's nearly perfect. But Anders still the best romance option, because of the story. You say that while a mage is blowing up a chantry with innocent people in it. Oh yeah, there's NOOO reason to fear :ulikeit: He did not blow the Chantry up because he's a mage. He blew up, because the mages were under oppression. This is different. Anders' didn't want to rule over anything. Fenris fear from the oppression too. He was happy at the mage side finally...
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Post by witchcocktor on May 13, 2017 11:06:04 GMT
You say that while a mage is blowing up a chantry with innocent people in it. Oh yeah, there's NOOO reason to fear :ulikeit: He did not blow the Chantry up because he's a mage. He blew up, because the mages were under oppression. This is different. Anders' didn't want to rule over anything. Fenris fear from the oppression too. He was happy at the mage side finally... But if you are trying to imply that Fenris should let go of his fear, all the while Anders is blowing up a chantry, I find it a bit ridiculous. Blowing up a chantry, even though it's battling oppression, is a showcase of POWER and the lengths that a mage will go to get their way. Not necessarily something anyone who is suspicious of mages will find ensuring or helpful to cure their suspicion of mages. That's all I'm saying. He wasn't really happy, he just seems to deal with the situation because of Hawke. Not sure how a rivalry non-romanced Fenris will deal with the situation because that never happens in my game.
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 11:20:54 GMT
He did not blow the Chantry up because he's a mage. He blew up, because the mages were under oppression. This is different. Anders' didn't want to rule over anything. Fenris fear from the oppression too. He was happy at the mage side finally... But if you are trying to imply that Fenris should let go of his fear, all the while Anders is blowing up a chantry, I find it a bit ridiculous. Blowing up a chantry, even though it's battling oppression, is a showcase of POWER and the lengths that a mage will go to get their way. Not necessarily something anyone who is suspicious of mages will find ensuring or helpful to cure their suspicion of mages. That's all I'm saying. He wasn't really happy, he just seems to deal with the situation because of Hawke. Not sure how a rivalry non-romanced Fenris will deal with the situation because that never happens in my game. What power? The power of black powder/lyrium bomb? "Blaming magic Isn't the answer..." – Hawke to Fenris, friendship. Rivalry: After the Alone quest he doesn't blame the magic/mages anymore. In romance as a mage Hawke, this is good point. If Fenris try to left Hawke (not enough friendship/rivalry), Hawke can convince him with "I assumed, that the freedom from slavery means something to you" – or something similar, and Fenris leave Meredith and join to fight for mages... Non-romanced Fenris after Alone (friendship is very good!)
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Post by witchcocktor on May 13, 2017 11:29:53 GMT
But if you are trying to imply that Fenris should let go of his fear, all the while Anders is blowing up a chantry, I find it a bit ridiculous. Blowing up a chantry, even though it's battling oppression, is a showcase of POWER and the lengths that a mage will go to get their way. Not necessarily something anyone who is suspicious of mages will find ensuring or helpful to cure their suspicion of mages. That's all I'm saying. He wasn't really happy, he just seems to deal with the situation because of Hawke. Not sure how a rivalry non-romanced Fenris will deal with the situation because that never happens in my game. What power? The black powder/lyrium bomb? "Blaming magic Isn't the answer..." – Hawke to Fenris, friendship. Rivalry: After the Alone quest he doesn't blame the magic/mages anymore. In romance as a mage Hawke, this is good point. If Fenris try to left Hawke (not enough friendship/rivalry), Hawke can convince him with "I assumed, that the freedom for slavery means something to you" – or something similar, and Fenris leave Meredith and join to fight for mages... Non-romanced Fenris after Alone (friendship is very good!):
The topic was about you saying that Fenris' distaste for mages and magic is so unfounded he should let go of it even in the middle of a scenario where a mage kills innocent victims to get his point across. That's all I'm saying. I think it's pretty shitty of Hawke to guilt Fenris like that, not gonna lie. It's like belittling Fenris' experience, and I can't respect something like that. '' I know you were slave to the mages, but you need to get your head out of your ass cuz mages need your help now, damn your own experiences, they don't mean a thing now!! '' Of course that's putting it harshly, but you know what I'm saying.
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Post by Walter Black on May 13, 2017 11:40:13 GMT
Hey, let's turn this thread from forum related drama to Bioware related drama, like so: Was Anders right? Go on. Be as passionate as you please. I'm a mage freedom trash, so I completely understand Anders's anger and his reasons, but I dont approve his methods, and because of that I love him so much, he's soooo broken, he's a mess because of his anger, his suffering because of discrimination, he's human and because of that I feel Anders as character very real. Everyone have their headcanons, but in mine Anders was a stable guy and Justice a good spirit, and both corrupted eachother, for me they were victims of the circunstances. And of course I let him live, cause I'm sucker for redemption and he's one of my scoobies Especially when you consider that it also could have just as easily been Nathaniel or Velana.
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 12:22:08 GMT
What power? The black powder/lyrium bomb? "Blaming magic Isn't the answer..." – Hawke to Fenris, friendship. Rivalry: After the Alone quest he doesn't blame the magic/mages anymore. In romance as a mage Hawke, this is good point. If Fenris try to left Hawke (not enough friendship/rivalry), Hawke can convince him with "I assumed, that the freedom from slavery means something to you" – or something similar, and Fenris leave Meredith and join to fight for mages... Non-romanced Fenris after Alone (friendship is very good!): The topic was about you saying that Fenris' distaste for mages and magic is so unfounded he should let go of it even in the middle of a scenario where a mage kills innocent victims to get his point across. That's all I'm saying. I think it's pretty shitty of Hawke to guilt Fenris like that, not gonna lie. It's like belittling Fenris' experience, and I can't respect something like that. '' I know you were slave to the mages, but you need to get your head out of your ass cuz mages need your help now, damn your own experiences, they don't mean a thing now!! '' Of course that's putting it harshly, but you know what I'm saying. This is not about guilt or not. The mages at Gallows, at the mercy of a madwoman, this is clear. Fenris already free, he got help, friendship (in rivalry as well!) and his freedom perhaps from a mage, who perhaps (depend on the play style) wants his fellows also free. Not a hard choice to him to follow Hawke.
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Post by witchcocktor on May 13, 2017 12:25:26 GMT
The topic was about you saying that Fenris' distaste for mages and magic is so unfounded he should let go of it even in the middle of a scenario where a mage kills innocent victims to get his point across. That's all I'm saying. I think it's pretty shitty of Hawke to guilt Fenris like that, not gonna lie. It's like belittling Fenris' experience, and I can't respect something like that. '' I know you were slave to the mages, but you need to get your head out of your ass cuz mages need your help now, damn your own experiences, they don't mean a thing now!! '' Of course that's putting it harshly, but you know what I'm saying. This is not about guilt or not. The mages at Gallows, at the mercy of a madwoman, this is clear. Fenris already free, he got help, friendship (in rivalry as well!) and his freedom perhaps from a mage, who perhaps (depend on the play style) wants his fellows also free. Not a hard choice to him to follow Hawke. Fenris is free of slavery (for now?) and now his feelings and experiences aren't valid and important?
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Post by jjdxb on May 13, 2017 12:36:08 GMT
All this talk of Anders Vs Fenris. Here I am, betraying the gays by committing to Isabella every playthrough.
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 12:45:00 GMT
I'm a mage freedom trash, so I completely understand Anders's anger and his reasons, but I dont approve his methods, and because of that I love him so much, he's soooo broken, he's a mess because of his anger, his suffering because of discrimination, he's human and because of that I feel Anders as character very real. Everyone have their headcanons, but in mine Anders was a stable guy and Justice a good spirit, and both corrupted eachother, for me they were victims of the circunstances. And of course I let him live, cause I'm sucker for redemption and he's one of my scoobies Especially when you consider that it also could have just as easily been Nathaniel or Velana. Nathaniel? For what? Anders more interesting with Justice. Nathaniel and Velanna never were considered as "funny" dudes, Anders was. (Of course, he never was "funny", but the people saw him as funny.) Nathaniel and Velanna was grumpy in Awakening. I do not think the players would have noticed any change in them with Justice... But Anders spectacularly changed (not really, just spectacularly – according to my opinion). Many people see, that Anders spoiled by Justice, because he's not that a nice guy, who was before Justice, in fact, sometimes became a jerk. "Justice don't let him be happy"... or (as I see): he already doesn't care about what people think about him, and he doesn't have to hide behind a charming, "funny" guy? What about, if he simply tired of being a charming funny guy?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 13:15:10 GMT
I was just thinking, if MEA is the last game in the series we (gay males) did not even had any gay/bi alien romances, or even gay human romance in the squad (Kaidan was bi and only in ME3), while straight/lesbian players had Garrus, Thane, Asari around every corner, also Vetra, Jaal and more... Not even counting human romance options.. Wow this is actually pretty depressing.. And everyone says we should be grateful for what we have, sure...
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 13:22:08 GMT
This is not about guilt or not. The mages at Gallows, at the mercy of a madwoman, this is clear. Fenris already free, he got help, friendship (in rivalry as well!) and his freedom perhaps from a mage, who perhaps (depend on the play style) wants his fellows also free. Not a hard choice to him to follow Hawke. Fenris is free of slavery (for now?) and now his feelings and experiences aren't valid and important? He also know, that there are "noble people" among the Magisters as well (Gallows, Act 1), so not all mages are evil tyrant. In fact, at the moment Meredith is the evil tyrant. He supports the Circles not from ideological conviction, rather from fear. His fear is understandable, because his master was a mage. But his fear's not logical, because his master was a slaveholder, who was a mage. He able to understand that difference. He lives in Southern Thedas already at least for 8-9 years, in Kirkwall for 7 years. He able to recognize, that's not Tevinter. I know, this is hard. This is his trial. And he still can support the Templars. The point is, Fenris does not give up his conviction. After the Alone, he already able to leave his fear behind, and without or with doubts (depend on Hawke's behavior toward him), he able to fight at mage side, not for the Mages, rather for his friends. (By the way: as I remember, my Hawke's ask was: "so hard to you to die with your friends?", instead the slavery version)
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 13:37:55 GMT
All this talk of Anders Vs Fenris. Here I am, betraying the gays by committing to Isabella every playthrough. Let's talk about Isabela's betrayal?
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Post by witchcocktor on May 13, 2017 13:42:36 GMT
Fenris is free of slavery (for now?) and now his feelings and experiences aren't valid and important? He also know, that there are "noble people" among the Magisters as well (Gallows, Act 1), so not all mages are evil tyrant. In fact, at the moment Meredith is the evil tyrant. He supports the Circles not from ideological conviction, rather from fear. His fear is understandable, because his master was a mage. But his fear's not logical, because his master was a slaveholder, who was a mage. He able to understand that difference. He lives in Southern Thedas already at least for 8-9 years, in Kirkwall for 7 years. He able to recognize, that's not Tevinter. I know, this is hard. This is his trial. And he still can support the Templars. (By the way: as I remember, my Hawke's ask was: "so hard to you to die with your friends?", instead the slavery version) I'm not sure if his disdain towards mages is illogical. I mean, by your words, his master was a slaveholder, who was was a mage. I'm sure there's a logical reason why Fenris would fear mages, instead of slaveholders/as well as slaveholders. But I'm not good with DA lore so I'll drop it. It's been a year since I touched DA2 to begin with. Don't really like to imagine that everyone's fear or disdain of magic and mages is unfounded and illogical. Unless that's what BW wants to do, paint magic and mages as perfectly fine cinnamon buns that does no wrong, who do no wrong. I don't like that.
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Post by Pain Delta on May 13, 2017 13:43:30 GMT
All this talk of Anders Vs Fenris. Here I am, betraying the gays by committing to Isabella every playthrough. Let's talk about Isabela's betrayal? She likes big boats!
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 14:06:13 GMT
He also know, that there are "noble people" among the Magisters as well (Gallows, Act 1), so not all mages are evil tyrant. In fact, at the moment Meredith is the evil tyrant. He supports the Circles not from ideological conviction, rather from fear. His fear is understandable, because his master was a mage. But his fear's not logical, because his master was a slaveholder, who was a mage. He able to understand that difference. He lives in Southern Thedas already at least for 8-9 years, in Kirkwall for 7 years. He able to recognize, that's not Tevinter. I know, this is hard. This is his trial. And he still can support the Templars. (By the way: as I remember, my Hawke's ask was: "so hard to you to die with your friends?", instead the slavery version) I'm not sure if his disdain towards mages is illogical. I mean, by your words, his master was a slaveholder, who was was a mage. I'm sure there's a logical reason why Fenris would fear mages, instead of slaveholders/as well as slaveholders. But I'm not good with DA lore so I'll drop it. It's been a year since I touched DA2 to begin with. Don't really like to imagine that everyone's fear or disdain of magic and mages is unfounded and illogical. Unless that's what BW wants to do, paint magic and mages as perfectly fine cinnamon buns that does no wrong, who do no wrong. I don't like that. It's easy to me, I recently finished a two playthrough (both friendship with him: romance and non-romance). You have a point: of course, his fear has logical basis, if we speak about that the magic/mages are dangerous, and his master was a power-hungry blood mage. The illogical part of this is the "mages", and he knows that very well. I can say: the caution is logical, the fear is rather illogical. The last friendship romance with him was a challenge/try with radical pro-mage. Hawke took him everywhere, and was totally honest with him about his conviction. So truly this was a (soft) rivalry, but still: working. He's rather a good person than anti-mage (he's anti-slavery, and on this way, Hawke can help him any time). No one deny the danger, but the "prevention" method is bad and cruel. This is why I support Anders. (Who isn't perfect, nor even innocent – but hot.)
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 14:13:31 GMT
Let's talk about Isabela's betrayal? She likes big boats! Her Fade scene the best with desire demon... and later, when she said, how disappointed was...
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Post by Aurora on May 13, 2017 14:13:45 GMT
Dragon Age 2 is probably going to stand out as my favorite BioWare game in the long run. Anders was different then his DAA persona, but given that his DAA persona was basically just one joke to the next-that's for the best. They had to add some character depth to him, and the way they did it all made sense to me in the long run. I used to want him to be separated from justice, but now I'm not even sure that matters. Justice actually may serve the purpose of preventing him from dying from the warden taint, so that's a plus. plus, DA2 Anders was different that DAA Anders because of Justice merging with him. Of course Anders is going to change, since he is sharing his body and consciousness with a spirit.
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Post by toomanyclouds on May 13, 2017 15:35:46 GMT
He also know, that there are "noble people" among the Magisters as well (Gallows, Act 1), so not all mages are evil tyrant. In fact, at the moment Meredith is the evil tyrant. He supports the Circles not from ideological conviction, rather from fear. His fear is understandable, because his master was a mage. But his fear's not logical, because his master was a slaveholder, who was a mage. He able to understand that difference. He lives in Southern Thedas already at least for 8-9 years, in Kirkwall for 7 years. He able to recognize, that's not Tevinter. I know, this is hard. This is his trial. And he still can support the Templars. (By the way: as I remember, my Hawke's ask was: "so hard to you to die with your friends?", instead the slavery version) I'm not sure if his disdain towards mages is illogical. I mean, by your words, his master was a slaveholder, who was was a mage. I'm sure there's a logical reason why Fenris would fear mages, instead of slaveholders/as well as slaveholders. But I'm not good with DA lore so I'll drop it. It's been a year since I touched DA2 to begin with. Don't really like to imagine that everyone's fear or disdain of magic and mages is unfounded and illogical. Unless that's what BW wants to do, paint magic and mages as perfectly fine cinnamon buns that does no wrong, who do no wrong. I don't like that. I'm also not sure how illogical it is. The game quite obviously wants us to agree with the pro-mage people and usually it's the only humane thing to do in the face of atrocities like the Kirkwall Gallows Circle or rituals like making people Tranquil or just about everything concerning the Qunari mages. But a person who can shoot ice out of their hands, electrocute you with a wave of their staff, refit you into a walking bomb or forcibly turn you into their slave until you keel over dead just is more dangerous than a usual human being. They didn't choose to be this way, it's unfair to punish them for it, but it's unwise to ignore that fact, too. Now, obviously every human, magic or not, can pick up a sword and go ballistic as well. But I'd still say that in a drunken bar brawl starring two regular peasants, the one who can shoot a fireball or turn into giant spider on the spot (relatively low-level mage abilities) is probably going to have the upper hand over someone semi-decently wielding a knife. The relatively uncritical and even naive approach DA writing sometimes takes to the mages is a bit frustrating to me and I hope Tevinter is gonna shake perspectives up in that regard. Also, I have a lot of choice words about Anders personally, but let's just say the only reason that I leave him alive most of the time is that I want to force him to look at the mess he has made instead of giving him the easy way out.
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Post by caterpillar on May 13, 2017 15:41:23 GMT
What does hardened Leliana even do? instead of negotiating, she kills everyone who disagrees with her. The chantry flows with the blood of those who stand against her or something like that. I like to make a hardened Leliana Divine in my Lavellan PTs as a way of trying to undermine the Chantry. It really bothers me that while they give you a few dialogue options here and there to say you aren't Andrastian, the game always assumes you want to help fix the Chantry while you are saving the world. I would have like for there to be a path where you take control of the Inquisition to oppose the Chantry. So if I can't have that, I pick a Divine who might destroy it from within. (all this is of course my headcanon, I know none of it will ever matter in any future game.)
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 15:43:09 GMT
I'm not sure if his disdain towards mages is illogical. I mean, by your words, his master was a slaveholder, who was was a mage. I'm sure there's a logical reason why Fenris would fear mages, instead of slaveholders/as well as slaveholders. But I'm not good with DA lore so I'll drop it. It's been a year since I touched DA2 to begin with. Don't really like to imagine that everyone's fear or disdain of magic and mages is unfounded and illogical. Unless that's what BW wants to do, paint magic and mages as perfectly fine cinnamon buns that does no wrong, who do no wrong. I don't like that. I'm also not sure how illogical it is. The game quite obviously wants us to agree with the pro-mage people and usually it's the only humane thing to do in the face of atrocities like the Kirkwall Gallows Circle or rituals like making people Tranquil or just about everything concerning the Qunari mages. But a person who can shoot ice out of their hands, electrocute you with a wave of their staff, refit you into a walking bomb or forcibly turn you into their slave until you keel over dead just is more dangerous than a usual human being. They didn't choose to be this way, it's unfair to punish them for it, but it's unwise to ignore that fact, too. Now, obviously every human, magic or not, can pick up a sword and go ballistic as well. But I'd still say that in a drunken bar brawl starring two regular peasants, the one who can shoot a fireball or turn into giant spider on the spot (relatively low-level mage abilities) is probably going to have the upper hand over someone semi-decently wielding a knife. The relatively uncritical and even naive approach DA writing sometimes takes to the mages is a bit frustrating to me and I hope Tevinter is gonna shake perspectives up in that regard. Also, I have a lot of choice words about Anders personally, but let's just say the only reason that I leave him alive most of the time is that I want to force him to look at the mess he has made instead of giving him the easy way out. That mess has caused by Meredith with Elthina's assistance. (You're right: forcing Anders to support Templars is the cruelest punishment in the game – true, his cause fulfilled already, the rebellion started, at least he can see that, and maybe he can regain his faith – if Hawke doesn't bother him anymore.) I don't think, that the game agree with pro-mages, because I think, Varric is the writers' avatar, and he's rather pro-templar. (True, when he tell the story, he was Cassandra's prisoner...)
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Post by witchcocktor on May 13, 2017 15:49:31 GMT
I'm not sure if his disdain towards mages is illogical. I mean, by your words, his master was a slaveholder, who was was a mage. I'm sure there's a logical reason why Fenris would fear mages, instead of slaveholders/as well as slaveholders. But I'm not good with DA lore so I'll drop it. It's been a year since I touched DA2 to begin with. Don't really like to imagine that everyone's fear or disdain of magic and mages is unfounded and illogical. Unless that's what BW wants to do, paint magic and mages as perfectly fine cinnamon buns that does no wrong, who do no wrong. I don't like that. I'm also not sure how illogical it is. The game quite obviously wants us to agree with the pro-mage people and usually it's the only humane thing to do in the face of atrocities like the Kirkwall Gallows Circle or rituals like making people Tranquil or just about everything concerning the Qunari mages. But a person who can shoot ice out of their hands, electrocute you with a wave of their staff, refit you into a walking bomb or forcibly turn you into their slave until you keel over dead just is more dangerous than a usual human being. They didn't choose to be this way, it's unfair to punish them for it, but it's unwise to ignore that fact, too. Now, obviously every human, magic or not, can pick up a sword and go ballistic as well. But I'd still say that in a drunken bar brawl starring two regular peasants, the one who can shoot a fireball or turn into giant spider on the spot (relatively low-level mage abilities) is probably going to have the upper hand over someone semi-decently wielding a knife. The relatively uncritical and even naive approach DA writing sometimes takes to the mages is a bit frustrating to me and I hope Tevinter is gonna shake perspectives up in that regard. Also, I have a lot of choice words about Anders personally, but let's just say the only reason that I leave him alive most of the time is that I want to force him to look at the mess he has made instead of giving him the easy way out. Just everything you said is spot on. Bless you! Especially the last bit about not killing Anders. Yeah Anders, this is the war you wanted, well here you go, now watch and enjoy the blood spill forth!
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Post by Catilina on May 13, 2017 15:56:07 GMT
I'm also not sure how illogical it is. The game quite obviously wants us to agree with the pro-mage people and usually it's the only humane thing to do in the face of atrocities like the Kirkwall Gallows Circle or rituals like making people Tranquil or just about everything concerning the Qunari mages. But a person who can shoot ice out of their hands, electrocute you with a wave of their staff, refit you into a walking bomb or forcibly turn you into their slave until you keel over dead just is more dangerous than a usual human being. They didn't choose to be this way, it's unfair to punish them for it, but it's unwise to ignore that fact, too. Now, obviously every human, magic or not, can pick up a sword and go ballistic as well. But I'd still say that in a drunken bar brawl starring two regular peasants, the one who can shoot a fireball or turn into giant spider on the spot (relatively low-level mage abilities) is probably going to have the upper hand over someone semi-decently wielding a knife. The relatively uncritical and even naive approach DA writing sometimes takes to the mages is a bit frustrating to me and I hope Tevinter is gonna shake perspectives up in that regard. Also, I have a lot of choice words about Anders personally, but let's just say the only reason that I leave him alive most of the time is that I want to force him to look at the mess he has made instead of giving him the easy way out. Just everything you said is spot on. Bless you! Especially the last bit about not killing Anders. Yeah Anders, this is the war you wanted, well here you go, now watch and enjoy the blood spill forth! If Hawke just send him away, he will appear at mage side, and offer his help to Hawke (Mage side), or fight against him/her (Templar side). He'll not leave the battleground. Before we celebrate the wise decision (Templar side): If Hawke crush Anders, Justice has more chance to become demon, and Anders have more chance to lost himself. I think not the best idea to leave him alive...
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Post by toomanyclouds on May 13, 2017 15:59:52 GMT
I'm also not sure how illogical it is. The game quite obviously wants us to agree with the pro-mage people and usually it's the only humane thing to do in the face of atrocities like the Kirkwall Gallows Circle or rituals like making people Tranquil or just about everything concerning the Qunari mages. But a person who can shoot ice out of their hands, electrocute you with a wave of their staff, refit you into a walking bomb or forcibly turn you into their slave until you keel over dead just is more dangerous than a usual human being. They didn't choose to be this way, it's unfair to punish them for it, but it's unwise to ignore that fact, too. Now, obviously every human, magic or not, can pick up a sword and go ballistic as well. But I'd still say that in a drunken bar brawl starring two regular peasants, the one who can shoot a fireball or turn into giant spider on the spot (relatively low-level mage abilities) is probably going to have the upper hand over someone semi-decently wielding a knife. The relatively uncritical and even naive approach DA writing sometimes takes to the mages is a bit frustrating to me and I hope Tevinter is gonna shake perspectives up in that regard. Also, I have a lot of choice words about Anders personally, but let's just say the only reason that I leave him alive most of the time is that I want to force him to look at the mess he has made instead of giving him the easy way out. That mess has caused by Meredith with Elthina's assistance. I also don't think, that the game agree with pro-mages, because I think, Varric is the writers' avatar, and he's rather pro-templar. (True, when he tell the story, he was Cassandra's prisoner...) Er, no. Meredith and Elthina did not rain a giant stone building down on a densely populated city. That decision was made by Anders. Certainly there is a lot to be said for Meredith's general blame in the story, but I'm sorry, Anders is not getting absolved for the murders he has willingly committed. I get agreeing with him, arguing that it really was necessary to force the cathartic mage/templar confrontation to avoid greater problems in the future (which I don't at all, but I see the argument), but he is a murderer of innocent people. I don't think even he would disagree. (Edit: I forgot to mention, he also explicitly states he wants this general conflict escalated, which I'm sure Meredith also does, but her being a bad person doesn't make Anders a better one.) Also, Varric is not pro-templar, he is actually one of the companions in the game who doesn't give you any pro or con points merely for choosing either side. Instead he disapproves and approves on the basis of how unnecessarily cruel you are. I don't think Varric works as proof here, anyway. The whole plot of DA2 is basically about Templars under Meredith growing ever more cruel towards the mages. Tranquility is a continuing concept throughout the series that no sane person can agree with, the treatment of the Qunari mages is brutal to a point of absurdity, and we hear many tales of mages being abused and oppressed in the Circles. There are sympathetic Templars, too, but on a whole I don't feel the DA world really wants to bring home the idea that the Circles are good and the Templars are generally right the way they operate during DA:O and DA2.
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Post by Aurora on May 13, 2017 16:24:37 GMT
I'm also not sure how illogical it is. The game quite obviously wants us to agree with the pro-mage people and usually it's the only humane thing to do in the face of atrocities like the Kirkwall Gallows Circle or rituals like making people Tranquil or just about everything concerning the Qunari mages. But a person who can shoot ice out of their hands, electrocute you with a wave of their staff, refit you into a walking bomb or forcibly turn you into their slave until you keel over dead just is more dangerous than a usual human being. They didn't choose to be this way, it's unfair to punish them for it, but it's unwise to ignore that fact, too. Now, obviously every human, magic or not, can pick up a sword and go ballistic as well. But I'd still say that in a drunken bar brawl starring two regular peasants, the one who can shoot a fireball or turn into giant spider on the spot (relatively low-level mage abilities) is probably going to have the upper hand over someone semi-decently wielding a knife. The relatively uncritical and even naive approach DA writing sometimes takes to the mages is a bit frustrating to me and I hope Tevinter is gonna shake perspectives up in that regard. Also, I have a lot of choice words about Anders personally, but let's just say the only reason that I leave him alive most of the time is that I want to force him to look at the mess he has made instead of giving him the easy way out. That mess has caused by Meredith with Elthina's assistance. (You're right: forcing Anders to support Templars is the cruelest punishment in the game – true, his cause fulfilled already, the rebellion started, at least he can see that, and maybe he can regain his faith – if Hawke doesn't bother him anymore.) I don't think, that the game agree with pro-mages, because I think, Varric is the writers' avatar, and he's rather pro-templar. (True, when he tell the story, he was Cassandra's prisoner...) i think Varric was one of the more neutral companions in the Mage vs. Templars debate in DA2. I don't think he is Pro-Templar, he is more Pro-Hawke. Isabella was fairly neutral about it as well.
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