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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 16:06:07 GMT
Beware spoilers may follow, if you haven't completed ME2. Stay out!
Having completed ME2 again in the last few days... something popped up again that I originally wondered about when I first played the game. Might be a bit long just to get to the question, so stick with me here.
The entire point of recruiting them is you "need specialists" for the Suicide Mission that TIM is sending you and your crew on. So, when we actually get to the suicide mission... roles for each squadmate kinda jump out at me.
Just as a rundown, I assume this is what each squadmate was recruited for:
1. Miranda - Cerberus Goon. It's a Cerberus mission. No other reason needed. 2. Jacob - See Miranda. 3. Garrus - Experience leading teams/squads against crazy odds. (Fire team leader) Can take a lot of punishment (hold the line) 4. Tali - Tech Expert. (Ship Upgrades - this could technically be anyone that offers one, but I prefer to stick it under someone with tech expertise). (Vent Section) 5. Grunt - Highly Durable, Pureblood Krogan Warrior (hold the line) (Escort/Bodyguard) 6. Jack - Experimental Biotic. (Bubble Section) and while I don't think she's good at it according to the game, but I would say she'd probably be good at (hold the line) 7. Kasumi - Tech Expert. See Tali 8. Legion - Tech Expert. Maybe even moreso than tali being that he's a Geth. (Vent Section) (Fighting Reaper - Assuming his knowledge would be useful) 9. Mordin - Scientist. (Needed for inventing ways to beat Collectors. Aka his anti seeker tech) 10. Samara - Matriarch Level Biotic. (Bubble Section/Hold the Line) 11. Zaeed - Expensive Merc. Highly experienced in combat (hold the line)
And that brings me to my question...
What is the point of recruiting Thane? Don't get me wrong, he's a cool character... but he doesn't really serve a purpose imo.
Thane - Assassin/Partial Biotic. He's not experienced (I assume) at leading teams as he's working alone. He fails at the bubble as he's not that strong with biotics. He's also not a tech expert, therefor... while, I assume being great at traversing through the vents, wouldn't be able to open/close the door like a techie would. He's fairly squishy and doesn't pack the punch of say Jack/Samara bioticly (he would require getting close while unnoticed to wreck havoc), so that to me doesn't scream great at holding the line or fighting proto reaper.
So what exactly is he needed for? I feel like bioware may have forgotten about him when setting up the SM (or rushed the SM). I feel like it should be a bit longer and require stealth or hand to hand at some portion where thane would be the choice Shepard would need. As it is, I never choose him for anything other than the occasional death during the approach. lol
Thoughts?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 17:00:11 GMT
I don't feel like copy/pasting again, but check this out: bsn.boards.net/post/204831/threadtl;dr: the initial assumption/goal of the mission is necessarily (though not explictly stated) a clandestine infiltration. The mission is "stop the Collectors" but they recruit a crew of invidiuals at a time when they were expecting to encounter a "Collector Homeworld". A handful of people vs an entire world? Clearly not an assault team, even with the "suicide mission" designation. So Thane as an assassin makes perfect sense given stealth is actually an implicit requirement. Same with Kasumi- a thief may sound strange until you consider that, apart from her tech expertise in breaking into places, she's a de facto ninja. Stealth actually becomes her flanderization in ME3 (particularly the Citadel DLC).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 17:11:55 GMT
Keeping in mind the Shepard does not know the precise conditions he'll be up against, an assassin who is a great long-range shot can sneak into position and provide over watch for the team. Garrus can also cover this position, but having two snipers in different locations covering the team isn't a bad idea either. This would be a reason for recruiting Kasumi as well. At the time, the player may only have Tali capable of performing hacking duties and Kasumi would provide that redundancy. If Kasumi is recruited before Tali, then the thought would be to have an "entry man."
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 17:23:53 GMT
I don't feel like copy/pasting again, but check this out: bsn.boards.net/post/204831/threadtl;dr: the initial assumption/goal of the mission is necessarily (though not explictly stated) a clandestine infiltration. The mission is "stop the Collectors" but they recruit a crew of invidiuals at a time when they were expecting to encounter a "Collector Homeworld". A handful of people vs an entire world? Clearly not an assault team, even with the "suicide mission" designation. So Thane as an assassin makes perfect sense given stealth is actually an implicit requirement. Same with Kasumi- a thief may sound strange until you consider that, apart from her tech expertise in breaking into places, she's a de facto ninja. Stealth actually becomes her flanderization in ME3 (particularly the Citadel DLC). That was a great post!!! Had there been actual infiltration or stealth sections he would have made sense. However, there wasn't... and that was most of the point of my post. If you aren't doing a stealthy section, thane feels entirely pointless. His biotics are nothing to write home about, he's not pure firepower, possesses no tech skills, and isn't a leader. lol I hadn't actually thought about Okeer being another scientist to be redundant to mordin! That's beside the point, but I just wanted to point that out. So... Had we not gotten grunt and zaeed was never recruited (aka you didn't buy the dlc) ... you now have no "pure firepower" Who takes that role? Garrus and the biotics I would assume?
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 17:26:53 GMT
Keeping in mind the Shepard does not know the precise conditions he'll be up against, an assassin who is a great long-range shot can sneak into position and provide over watch for the team. Garrus can also cover this position, but having two snipers in different locations covering the team isn't a bad idea either. This would be a reason for recruiting Kasumi as well. At the time, the player may only have Tali capable of performing hacking duties and Kasumi would provide that redundancy. If Kasumi is recruited before Tali, then the thought would be to have an "entry man." I don't remember Thane ever really being shown with a sniper though. He had the entrance scene with killing nasana dantius and the part killing those dudes near the vents. Then the loyalty mission was about sneaking around following people. I suppose there was the mention by that salarian worker about someone shooting that merc. But he could have shot him with a pistol or something, no? Honestly I don't remember what Thane's loadout is, so maybe he was a sniper. Still sniping doesn't really fill a role in the SM either. (obviously this is hindsight, but I think it would have been better had everyone had an actual role that they ended up being needed for)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 17:34:15 GMT
Keeping in mind the Shepard does not know the precise conditions he'll be up against, an assassin who is a great long-range shot can sneak into position and provide over watch for the team. Garrus can also cover this position, but having two snipers in different locations covering the team isn't a bad idea either. This would be a reason for recruiting Kasumi as well. At the time, the player may only have Tali capable of performing hacking duties and Kasumi would provide that redundancy. If Kasumi is recruited before Tali, then the thought would be to have an "entry man." I don't remember Thane every really being shown with a sniper though. He had the entrance seen with killing nasana dantius and the part killing those dudes near the vents. Then the loyalty mission was about sneaking around following people. I suppose there was the mention by that salarian worker about someone shooting that merc. But he could have shot him with a pistol or something, no? Honestly I don't remember what Thane's loadout is, so maybe he was a sniper. Still sniping doesn't really fill a role in the SM either. (obviously this is hindsight, but I think it would have been better had everyone had an actual role that they ended up being needed for) He does carry a sniper rifle in ME2. His other gun in an SMG (no pistol). When shooting the merc (clean head shot), it is very likely that he used a sniper rifle. His SMG would have brought him into closer range and they would have seen him. This is also the dossier provided by TIM: Also, you have to understand that Shepard is recruiting a team for a mission that he does NOT know exactly what he/she will encounter... so he/she recruits individuals to cover a variety of situations that he/she MIGHT encounter. Once he arrives at the Collector Base, he/she is then forced to make the team available fit the circumstances he/she discovers there.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 17:44:42 GMT
Yeah, I get that Shepard/Cerberus doesn't know what they are going to encounter @upupawayredux . I was going about it with that hindsight perspective when I should have been thinking from the beforehand perspective. So... in that sense it makes sense that they'd recruit as many different types of specialists as possible. So, I guess technically my question should be... WHY DIDN'T YOU GIVE THANE A REASON TO BE THERE BIOWARE?! lol
It just annoys me because I like Thane and would like him to be the best choice for at least 1 role in the SM and he's not the best or even really a choice to be considered in ANY of the roles. =/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 17:56:59 GMT
Yeah, I get that Shepard/Cerberus doesn't know what they are going to encounter @upupawayredux . I was going about it with that hindsight perspective when I should have been thinking from the beforehand perspective. So... in that sense it makes sense that they'd recruit as many different types of specialists as possible. So, I guess technically my question should be... WHY DIDN'T YOU GIVE THANE A REASON TO BE THERE BIOWARE?! lol It just annoys me because I like Thane and would like him to be the best choice for at least 1 role in the SM and he's not the best or even really a choice to be considered in ANY of the roles. =/ Well, Thane can be very useful as your "right-hand man" during the SM. He has Warp (which removes barriers off collector guardians and collector assassins) and he can have Throw Field... great for throwing collectors off the edges of the platforms and for upending husks (which causes them to die right away). He is, after all, also described in the dossier as a "quick-kill biotic specialist."
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 18:30:55 GMT
That was a great post!!! Had there been actual infiltration or stealth sections he would have made sense. However, there wasn't... and that was most of the point of my post. If you aren't doing a stealthy section, thane feels entirely pointless. His biotics are nothing to write home about, he's not pure firepower, possesses no tech skills, and isn't a leader. lol I hadn't actually thought about Okeer being another scientist to be redundant to mordin! That's beside the point, but I just wanted to point that out. So... Had we not gotten grunt and zaeed was never recruited (aka you didn't buy the dlc) ... you now have no "pure firepower" Who takes that role? Garrus and the biotics I would assume? Preaching to the choir regarding the need for some stealth gameplay. I will never forgive them for the psychic freakin Batarians in Arrival that instantly knew where I was after activating tactical cloak, behind a wall at the start of a mission. However, gameplay is one issue, story/lore is another. Thane goes full MGS/Splinter Cell in his mission and yet when he joins the squad he's just another dumb NPC taking rockets to the face. That has to go to Gameplay/Story Segregation sadly. And he's not the only one that's better in cutscenes. Samara doesn't float, Jack doesn't do Starkilleresque repulses etc. The point is, storywise there's an implicit stealth requirement planned for that justifies his contract. And while the suicide mission is not stealthy per se, it is a surgical point strike with a focus on evading the enemy as opposed to meeting them head on. Again if you ignore the limitations of the squad gameplay, it's easy to imagine Thane as a pointman for one of the fire teams, scouting ahead, weakening strategic enemies or drawing them into an ambush of our own and so on. Basically, unless you're fighting the British muzzle-to-muzzle or something, a stealthy character will never not be an asset on the battlefield.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 2, 2017 19:29:24 GMT
he says he's dying. So why would I want him on my squad?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 19:38:20 GMT
he says he's dying. So why would I want him on my squad? Because it's a suicide mission. So actually he's the most qualified.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 19:41:48 GMT
That was a great post!!! Had there been actual infiltration or stealth sections he would have made sense. However, there wasn't... and that was most of the point of my post. If you aren't doing a stealthy section, thane feels entirely pointless. His biotics are nothing to write home about, he's not pure firepower, possesses no tech skills, and isn't a leader. lol I hadn't actually thought about Okeer being another scientist to be redundant to mordin! That's beside the point, but I just wanted to point that out. So... Had we not gotten grunt and zaeed was never recruited (aka you didn't buy the dlc) ... you now have no "pure firepower" Who takes that role? Garrus and the biotics I would assume? Preaching to the choir regarding the need for some stealth gameplay. I will never forgive them for the psychic freakin Batarians in Arrival that instantly knew where I was after activating tactical cloak, behind a wall at the start of a mission. However, gameplay is one issue, story/lore is another. Thane goes full MGS/Splinter Cell in his mission and yet when he joins the squad he's just another dumb NPC taking rockets to the face. That has to go to Gameplay/Story Segregation sadly. And he's not the only one that's better in cutscenes. Samara doesn't float, Jack doesn't do Starkilleresque repulses etc. The point is, storywise there's an implicit stealth requirement planned for that justifies his contract. And while the suicide mission is not stealthy per se, it is a surgical point strike with a focus on evading the enemy as opposed to meeting them head on. Again if you ignore the limitations of the squad gameplay, it's easy to imagine Thane as a pointman for one of the fire teams, scouting ahead, weakening strategic enemies or drawing them into an ambush of our own and so on. Basically, unless you're fighting the British muzzle-to-muzzle or something, a stealthy character will never not be an asset on the battlefield. To you gameplay/story separation point... I'm not too worried about him being a dumb npc as at the end of the day, all the squadmates will be. Just that there was no point written into the SM. Such a wasted opportunity because even as it is, it's my favorite ending of the 3 games.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 19:43:03 GMT
he says he's dying. So why would I want him on my squad? Because it's a suicide mission. So actually he's the most qualified. What if his "we suffocate" happens during a critical portion of the mission though? Sure he says he has like 8 months or whatever... but what if he's wrong?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 20:02:14 GMT
Just that there was no point written into the SM. Such a wasted opportunity because even as it is, it's my favorite ending of the 3 games. What do you mean there was no point? A while after I realized the idea I was trying to get at with the squad composition was not so much stealth alone (though that would still be a factor) but rather guerrilla combat. Wikipedia def: ^Suitable enough for our purposes. It's immediately obvious that's what the ME2 squad (including Thane) and the mission was going for. Apart from ambushes of our own and raids (debatable) we do all of that against the Collectors throughout the course of the game. What if his "we suffocate" happens during a critical portion of the mission though? Sure he says he has like 8 months or whatever... but what if he's wrong?
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Post by themikefest on Feb 2, 2017 20:08:34 GMT
he says he's dying. So why would I want him on my squad? Because it's a suicide mission. So actually he's the most qualified. Incorrect. During the mission he starts to have some kind of an attack, myself and the other squadmate has to take up the extra slack because of Thane. Myself or the other squadmate ends up helping him while the other might be overwhelmed by the enemy.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 20:09:27 GMT
See Above
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 20:16:44 GMT
he says he's dying. So why would I want him on my squad? However, Shepard doesn't find out that he's dying until after he has technically been recruited... i.e. it's after Shepard asks him to join that he decides "a suicide mission will do nicely" and fesses up to the fact that he is already dying. The option Bioware didn't give the player was to have Shepard back out on the deal at that point. I don't see that as a big deal though.... Shepard can take him on board thinking to just let him sit and wallow in self pity on the ship. It's not like Shepard is paying him. Thane is doing the job for free. If he's dying, why would writing a stealth component into the game correct the issue with him possibly having an attack and compromising his position even just by coughing? the gameplay element for which he is best suited during the SM is on Shepard's squad for his warp and throw capabilities. Not writing a specialized stealth role for him is not a "missed opportunity"; it just makes common sense. It wouldn't want a guy on a stealth mission hacking his lungs out anymore than I'd want one likely to collapse while watching my back.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 2, 2017 20:17:53 GMT
there's nothing to see above
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 20:21:18 GMT
Just that there was no point written into the SM. Such a wasted opportunity because even as it is, it's my favorite ending of the 3 games. What do you mean there was no point? A while after I realized the idea I was trying to get at with the squad composition was not so much stealth alone (though that would still be a factor) but rather guerrilla combat. I'm saying there should be a point (section) of the SM specifically dedicated to stealth or thane and kasumi's strength. As it stands there's no portion where they are required. Vent - Tech Bubble - Biotic Fireteam - Leadership Hold the Line - Durability/Firepower I'm saying they needed to add at least one more section to the SM where Thane or Kasumi are obviously the best choice for whatever is to be done. As it is, every part has someone better suited for that than either of them. So maybe they should've changed the vent section to having to have a stealth character use the vents (without gates blocking their way) to get around behind the enemy or to an inaccessible part of the base and open up that avenue for shepard with shepard's team and the other distracting the enemy instead of having shepard help them with the gates along the way. Then have the tech specialist have a part where they actually hack alarms in another section of the base or hack automated defenses to help instead of just opening a door. That way he doesn't need to be justified just from the story.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 2, 2017 20:21:18 GMT
However, Shepard doesn't find out that he's dying until after he has technically been recruited... i.e. it's after Shepard asks him to join that he decides "a suicide mission will do nicely" and fesses up to the fact that he is already dying. The option Bioware didn't give the player was to have Shepard back out on the deal at that point. I don't see that as a big deal though.... Shepard can take him on board thinking to just let him sit and wallow in self pity on the ship. It's not like Shepard is paying him. Thane is doing the job for free. I do agree that it would be nice for Shepard to have the option to say no. For me though, I wouldn't have included him in the game. Good thing I'm not required to recruit him.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 20:31:53 GMT
What do you mean there was no point? A while after I realized the idea I was trying to get at with the squad composition was not so much stealth alone (though that would still be a factor) but rather guerrilla combat. I'm saying there should be a point (section) of the SM specifically dedicated to stealth or thane and kasumi's strength. As it stands there's no portion where they are required. Vent - Tech Bubble - Biotic Fireteam - Leadership Hold the Line - Durability/Firepower I'm saying they needed to add at least one more section to the SM where Thane or Kasumi are obviously the best choice for whatever is to be done. As it is, every part has someone better suited for that than either of them. So maybe they should've changed the vent section to having to have a stealth character use the vents (without gates blocking their way) to get around behind the enemy or to an inaccessible part of the base and open up that avenue for shepard with shepard's team and the other distracting the enemy instead of having shepard him them with the gates along the way. Then have the tech specialist have a part with they actually hack alarms in another section of the base or hack automated defenses to help instead of just opening a door. That way he doesn't need to be justified just from the story. Fair enough. Yeah that would've been nice. You could still argue the crew escort could count though. You need someone fast, specializing in hit and runs and evasion. The rescued crew aren't going to be stealthing but their escort would have to scout ahead, avoid chokepoints or other traps and deal with any resistance basically by themselves, necessitating ambush/stealth tactics. So maybe they could've emphasized that part of it more. Got the idea when I was thinking Mordin should also be a candidate for this sort of section. Lorewise he's got guerrilla experience (excells at that actually) and from a gameplay perspective you'd also be covered under the current setup, since recruiting Thane and Kasumi is optional and the latter is DLC. So again, redundancy. BioWare seems to hate (or at least not be on speaking terms with) stealth though...
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 2, 2017 20:41:59 GMT
I'm saying there should be a point (section) of the SM specifically dedicated to stealth or thane and kasumi's strength. As it stands there's no portion where they are required. Vent - Tech Bubble - Biotic Fireteam - Leadership Hold the Line - Durability/Firepower I'm saying they needed to add at least one more section to the SM where Thane or Kasumi are obviously the best choice for whatever is to be done. As it is, every part has someone better suited for that than either of them. So maybe they should've changed the vent section to having to have a stealth character use the vents (without gates blocking their way) to get around behind the enemy or to an inaccessible part of the base and open up that avenue for shepard with shepard's team and the other distracting the enemy instead of having shepard him them with the gates along the way. Then have the tech specialist have a part with they actually hack alarms in another section of the base or hack automated defenses to help instead of just opening a door. That way he doesn't need to be justified just from the story. Fair enough. Yeah that would've been nice. You could still argue the crew escort could count though. You need someone fast, specializing in hit and runs and evasion. The rescued crew aren't going to be stealthing but their escort would have to scout ahead, avoid chokepoints or other traps and deal with any resistance basically by themselves, necessitating ambush/stealth tactics. So maybe they could've emphasized that part of it more. Got the idea when I was thinking Mordin should also be a candidate for this sort of section. Lorewise he's got guerrilla experience (excells at that actually) and from a gameplay perspective you'd also be covered under the current setup, since recruiting Thane and Kasumi is optional and the latter is DLC. So again, redundancy. BioWare seems to hate (or at least not be on speaking terms with) stealth though... That's probably the best place that could be argued for Thane. I usually send Grunt though as I like the image in my mind of Grunt telling the crew to "stay behind me!" and him just running forward blasting his way through husks and collectors, picking them up and crushing their necks barehanded, throwing them off ledges, headbutting, etc haha Yeah, that's why I included the seeker swarm countermeasure for Mordin because he doesn't have a spot in the SM either.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 20:45:49 GMT
What do you mean there was no point? A while after I realized the idea I was trying to get at with the squad composition was not so much stealth alone (though that would still be a factor) but rather guerrilla combat. I'm saying there should be a point (section) of the SM specifically dedicated to stealth or thane and kasumi's strength. As it stands there's no portion where they are required. Vent - Tech Bubble - Biotic Fireteam - Leadership Hold the Line - Durability/Firepower I'm saying they needed to add at least one more section to the SM where Thane or Kasumi are obviously the best choice for whatever is to be done. As it is, every part has someone better suited for that than either of them. So maybe they should've changed the vent section to having to have a stealth character use the vents (without gates blocking their way) to get around behind the enemy or to an inaccessible part of the base and open up that avenue for shepard with shepard's team and the other distracting the enemy instead of having shepard help them with the gates along the way. Then have the tech specialist have a part where they actually hack alarms in another section of the base or hack automated defenses to help instead of just opening a door. That way he doesn't need to be justified just from the story. Kasumi is obviously the best choice for the vents though. The job at the end of the line is going to be hacking a door... and she was partnered with the "best hacking and entry man in the business." What I see as clearly missing from the team in way of recruitment is an EOD specialist. Having "tech" does not arbitrarily make one a expert in working with bombs and explosives... and, like a sniper, would be an major asset on any team being designed for guerilla warfare.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 20:50:55 GMT
That's probably the best place that could be argued for Thane. I usually send Grunt though as I like the image in my mind of Grunt telling the crew to "stay behind me!" and him just running forward blasting his way through husks and collectors, picking them up and crushing their necks barehanded, throwing them off ledges, headbutting, etc haha Yeah, that's why I included the seeker swarm countermeasure for Mordin because he doesn't have a spot in the SM either. I don't have numbers but if you don't have Mordin loyal and with you, escorting the crew is about the only guaranteed safe space for him in the SM. You can have him in the hold the line party if it's strong enough but if your numbers dip too low, he's the first one that buys it in that section. So yeah, he's primarily the scientist, but if he needs to fight, hit and runs are his speciality.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 2, 2017 20:56:48 GMT
Kasumi is obviously the best choice for the vents though. The job at the end of the line is going to be hacking a door... and she was partnered with the "best hacking and entry man in the business." What I see as clearly missing from the team in way of recruitment is an EOD specialist. Having "tech" does not arbitrarily make one a expert in working with bombs and explosives... and, like a sniper, would be an major asset on any team being designed for guerilla warfare. As much as I love Kasumi, I disagree. Top choice is Legion- geth are known and feared for hacking everything under the sun (or in this case galactic core) and even if there wasn't direct precedent, AI reaction times will always be greater than organics'. That's the whole point of EDI, another AI. And as a synthetic it has a much higher tolerance for hazardous environment conditions, which the vents obviously have. Next up is Tali, not only for her tech skills but because she's already in a sealed environment suit, again offering her more protection than Kasumi would have. Kasumi could get the job done obviously, but she's the most vulnerable to environmental hazards. I agree about a demolition expert though. It seems like a glaring oversight now that I think about it. Can't recall if anyone (Zaeed?) even mentions relevant experience in passing.
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